kinsaj

There have been a couple threads on other calibers... but I've recently been wondering about .45 ACP. What are your thoughts on it... Is it good as a defensive round? Info on it concerning use in a 1911 A1 would be appreciated as well. Thanks in advance.

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im2smrt4u

Everything I've heard says that the .45 ACP is a perfect self defense round, particularly for the times when you absolutely, positively mus remove limbs. heh, just kidding...or am I?

Not to mention the 1911 is such a classic style.

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Suave

It's big and it kills people. Smaller rounds also kill people, but they don't kill people as dead as a nice fat .45 round will. There are different levels of pistol dead:
.22 calibre dead (wussy dead)
.38 calibre/9 mm dead (normal dead)
.40 calibre/.357 magnum dead (deader dead)
.45 calibre/.44 magnum/.50 calibre dead (DEADEST!)

The point I'm trying to make is, the average threat will die no matter the round you're using, but with a .45 you might only have to shoot them once instead of twice (though you should shoot at least twice anyways).

As far as the 1911 goes, if a firearm can be in widespread use and production after nearly a century past its conception, it's got to have something going for it.

DelayedReaction

It's well recieved, and the FMJ version is incredibly reliable in a 1911 platform. When I get off campus and can own a firearm, my first one will be a 1911.

You should consider what your needs are. Do you intend to conceal carry? Home defense? There are many factors that need to be considered when choosing a frame and caliber. Hand size, recoil control, single action vs. double action, etc. A full-size 1911 is a large framed, single-action handgun. It is designed to be carried cocked and locked, with the hammer back and the safety on. Some people aren't comfortable with this mode of carry, and for them I would recommend a DAO model such as a Glock. Home defense is better accomplished with a shotgun, such as a Remington 870 Police Model. The way I was told to put it was: "When it comes to home defense, your handgun is designed to get you to your shotgun."

The best way to figure out what you want is to get out on the range, rent or borrow a gun, and shoot it. Then rent or borrow another gun, and shoot that. Caliber is secondary to comfort.

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ziadel

The 1911 is IMO the most illustrious combat pistol ever. Theres no discussing that with me, it just is, its won two world wars and even now its over there in Iraq blowing people away. Theres just nothing that works better IMO.

the 1911 is incredibly reliable (I'm not talking about your match pistols that everyone works and works and works on to get everything as tight as possible so you can shoot tiny tiny groups with it) I'm talking about your mil-spec 1911 that rattles when you shake it. Yupp, they rattle when you shake it. Toss it in a mud puddle for a week, loaded, locked and cocked, come back a week later, dig it out, and it will fire. Thats not an exaggeration, it will fire as long as the ammo hasn't gone bad while in the mud puddle



Now, the .45 round is something else altogether. When I shoot it, I can't help but think that it shouldn't work, but it does. You can almost watch the bullets glide toward the target, but everyone who knows something about shooting other people says its the best. I having never shot anyone or anything with it (I hope to take a deer with it soon, so then I'll be able to talk about how it does on something living first hand) can't tell you how it does what it does. It really is a slow moving bullet, but its huge. Absolutely huge, just looking at the thing makes you feel sorry for anyone whos ever gotten one of those from the business end of the 1911. I have seen how good .45 hollow points act on ballistic jelly, and thats freaking nuts... if a .45 round does HALF as well on the human body as that Golden Sabre did on that ballistic jelly, its twice as much damage as you need...

The 1911 in general has become a LOT more reliable with JHP ammo, this is partially because they are making JHP ammo more like regular ball ammo where the ammo has to contact the feed ramp and top of the barrel, so it doesnt get hung up. Its also because 1911's almost all come with throated barrels, REALLY polished feed ramps and a few other things that make them more tolerant of non-ball ammo.

But, yeah, what else has been around for 100 years and is still considered at the forefront like the 1911 is? I can't think of anything.... Keep in mind that the Marines had to be ORDERED by the pentagon to give up their 1911's, and the 1911's they had were all made in 1945 or mebbe 44, I dunno exactly...


I'll post up more as I think about it, but in closing I'll just say there has never been anything like the Yankee Fist, nor will there ever.

cd45

I carry a 1911 every day. I like the way it looks, feels, and carries. It is smooth and narrow making it easy to hide. I like the mags, they are smooth and thin, also easy to hide. I carry 8 round mags, 1 in the gun and 2 spares.
The guns is proven, over 75 years as the issue handgun for the Army and Marines. I would not be without mine, and the wife carries one too. I have other handguns but, this is the one I depend on. The .45 ACP is also one of the best rounds there is. It doesn't develop nearly as much pressure as the .357 Mag or the 9mm or the .44 Mag but, it works very well. You can't go wrong with a .45 ACP or the 1911.

MrTuffPaws

No doubt that 45 ACP can get the job done, but it does have some draw backs. The major one is that due to the size of the round, you either have to carry a big gun or you have to limit the number of rounds your gun can carry. There are some compacts out there that are 10+1, but they are thick and can be difficult to conceal.

Another issue is the recoil. There have been cases of police departments going to 40 or 9mm from 45 and having there range scores jump because of the lesser recoil.

tropple

As with any serioous physical activity, firing a handgun and controlling recoil requires regular practice and exercise. You can't expect to hit the range a couple times a year for quals and fire expert. It just isn't going to happen. Plan for 3-400 rounds a month and you'll be better for it. If you might need to shoot to save your butt, then you better practice as though your life depends on it. Just my two cents on the topic. I love .45 ACP. I spents thousands of Uncle Sam's dollars firing a .45. I was shooting over 2000 rounds a month. What a life ;-)

Ziadel, I don't think using a .45 ACP for deer hunting is legal in any state. Better check that out before you go. You typically wouldn't get close enough to a deer for a clean kill with a .45. It might be good out to 15-20 yards, but further than that is asking for a wounded animal. Handgun hunting requires something a with a bit more ummph to it. A .44 is probably the minimum in places where handgun hunting is permitted.

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ziadel

I can't find anything that says I can't on the NY DEC website.... NY is kinda weird, no semi-autos that hold more than 6 rounds, but you can hunt with ANY centerfire rifle cartiridge, so its not uncommon to have some idiot out there blasting away at a buck with his Mini-14.

I'll ask an encon guy point blank, if they say its legal, I'm goin for it




that sounds a bit far off to me... the .40 isn't a very much smaller round, figure about 50 grains smaller, and its moving another few hundered FPS, but what really puts the recoil factor out the window is the fact that most .40cal pistols are polymer.
When you don't have steel to soak up the recoil everything starts to hurt ya... and they are all double stack mag'd, more you have to wrap your hands around, can be either good or bad depending on the size of your hands...



this is all just my opinion tho, you should really fire off a few of each caliber... but also consider cost...

9mm is the cheaper centerfire pistol round available, IMO sucks as a defense round, but its cheap for plinking...

the .40 is more money for FMJ's and JHP's....

the .45 has cheap (not as cheap as 9's) FMJ's (YOu can get a box of 100 winchester FMJ's at wal-mart for $20 and not too unreasonably priced JHP (all JHP's are expensive if you get good ones)

basically, since a lot of countries have used 9's and .45's as their sidearms, their is surplus ammo laying around, no country has ever had a .40 S&W side arm....



A full-size 1911 carries 8+1. 9 .45's is enough to lay out 9 attacker. Since the odds of getting jumped by 9 people and having the other 8 continue their attempt on my life after I have just blown one away are so incredibly remote, I feel confident in carrying a smaller amount of ammo. Besides which, if I can't manage a hit with 9 rounds, I'd prolly be better off with a sharp stick or something

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MrTuffPaws

LOL True. You can get guns with 17 + 1 now, but I still don't see a reason for them unless it is military. Not that I am complaining or anything.

Frunobulax

Firing the 1911 is a pistol experience like no other. Not better or worse, just different.
It's not for everybody. A buddy of mine relayed a description of it: "It's like throwing a lug nut at somebody (real fast). It's almost an archery experience, as the drop from that low velocity, high weight round is perceptably and dramatically larger than just about any other round you can name, short of barrel-loading pistols.

If you're looking for a personal, carry weapon, keep looking. The 1911 is a big chunk of metal, and you'll get to where you never carry it. And, like Ayoob says, 'The best gun to have in a firefight is on you actually have on you.'

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Cobalt_60

I've always loved the 1911. So many manufactures and the parts are interchangeable on the mil spec models on some parts. I have small hands and the thinner handle on the 1911 feels so much better than other high capacity pistols. Mine is a Colt 1991A1 stainless Government model. I have two Wilson Combat 8 round stainless magazines. I usaully keep them loaded with Federal Hydrashok rounds. There is a gun show in my area this month. I'm going to be looking into replacing my recoil spring. Eventually I want to get another 1911, maybe a Springfield or some other brand just to keep in my truck. Trick it out with after market stuff and keep my Colt at home.

daswig

.45 acp is more than enough for any normal self-defense situation. It's also mondo fun in a subgun like the Reising or M1A1. Good for shooting skeet, too.

tropple

Once you learn to walk lopsided to balance the weight it's not a bad carry. Add a few magazines on the off side and you're just right.

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ziadel

I carry mine daily, I don't have any problems...
I'm 5'11" 140 pounds...
no problem concealing
no problem carrying


if the weight is THAT much of a problem, get an aluminum 1911, they are considerably lighter. Besides, if I fo manage to miss with all 9 rounds, then I'd rather have something made of steel to bash someone on the head with

kinsaj, I have no idea what kind of physical build you have, find someone who has one and see if its something you could conceal, but I don't remember your original question inquiring about such things, but it may very well be a concern of yours...

If your anywhere near Albany, NY, you more than welcome to come blast off a few hundered rounds in my gun

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raptor9k

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113647

What do ya know? Most everybody is right. If you want to learn more about the .45, go rent one.. shoot it, you will know right away if it is the round/gun for you. (same advice for any gun you would care to learn about)..

ziadel

well, this is prolly the best case I can make for the good old .45


would you fuck with someone if you saw this?





people tend to reconsider things when they stare down that huge barrel at the Remington 185grain JHP+P pointed right at their face.

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MSD

Great pic, but I really hope that there was nobody behind the camera.

ziadel

no one was behind the camera..



no worries, I was willing to sacrifice the tripod


I wanna take some more and try to get it perfectly straight down the barrel, its surprisingly hard to do...

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Cobalt_60

ziadel, what make and model 1911 is that? I went to a local gunshow this last weekend. Picked up a new recoil spring. A Wilson Combat heavy duty recoil spring to replace my original Colt spring. That sucker is stiff! Can't wait to go the range and try it out. Anyone know of any places online or local stores to pick up decent priced .45 rounds? The stuff at the range I go to is quite expensive.

ziadel

its a Springfield Mil-Spec (not the GI model) M1911-A1

Its the most 1911 you can get for your money hands down, and its one of if not THE most reliable 1911's you can get...

I have NEVER had a malfunction in it. Never, not one malfunction of any type.

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ziadel

whoops, forgot to write about the ammo


www.cheaperthandirt.com has good ammo prices...

you could just goto Wal-mart tho... the wally-marts here have 100 round boxes of Winchester .45 auto 230grain FMJ's for 20 bucks... thats a damn good price for 100 rounds of .45...

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bigd999

Is it just me or is the 1911 the best looking semi auto handgun ever made. Ive been drooling over all the different finishes that Springfield Armory offers it in.

one question since im not a gun owner yet, s .45 acp too expensive to have as a range gun? Id like it for protection, but Id also like to go shoot as often as I could.

Taowulf

That depends on what you define as "too expensive". It also depends what what prices on range acceptable ammo that you can find.

Before I sold my Browning BDM in 9mm, I used to take both the 9mm and my Kimber .45 to the range. Boxes of FMJ .45 are only a dollar or two more per 50 than 9mm.

ziadel

its certainly not gonna be as cheap as a .22 to shoot, but like i posted earlier, goto Wal-Mart, get the 100rd Winchester White Box 100rd packs, they are 20 bucks...


thats about as good as it gets for .45 Ball ammo

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mkultra

Just out of curiousity, how much more kick do you get from a .45 round versus a 9mm? Is it a big difference (typically for the averaged sized person) or not really? Also assuming your using a 1911.

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MSD

I've heard enough good things that I'll be getting one this summer as my CCW. I'm looking at the Fully Loaded MC Operator model <img src="http://www.springfield-armory.com/images/pistols/PX9105MLLarge.jpg" width=640>

ziadel

no offense, but why in the blazes would you want a pistol with a light rail for a CCW? it seems to be a trend nowadays that I find alarming...


the only thing that I dont like about the OPerator is the full-length guide rod, I've heard they are more trouble than they are worth... but all the fancy pistols now-adays have em...



and mkultra, I can't really answer your question about the .45 vs. the 9 on recoil, but I am 5'10" 140 pounds, and I have NO trouble shooting the 1911 even with +P loads my Steel Full-size 1911 is easy to shoot...

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NewBonk

I don't recall where I heard this, but someone said, "A smaller round might expand but a bigger round never shrinks."

ziadel

sounds like something Jeff Cooper would say


sage advice no matter who said it tho.

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Suave

Someone mentioned .45 ACP not being good for hunting; that's not entirely accurate as far as I know. The main reason that .45 ACP is generally a shorter-range round is because of the firearms in which it is used. A good example of the possible longer-range possiblities of the calibre is the DeLisle carbine, which is a silent bolt-action carbine with a maximum effective range of between 200 and 400 metres (I don't remember the exact range). If you could find a pistol with a long enough barrel, I'm sure you could hunt with it.

ziadel

.45s are legal to hunt with in my area, and if I had a deer within 20 yards, I'd use my 1911 before I threw a .308 at the thing. If you hit a deer in the vitals, the 400ft/lb of the .45acp should be enough to ensure a humane kill.

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Dostoevsky

From what I've been told, many 1911's don't do well with some of the modern hollow points. The feed ramps were originally designed for ball ammo and hollow points have a tendency to jam. I guess it would be advisable to practice with your carry ammo (which you should do anyway) to make sure that it cycles reliably. Most of you guys probably know this, but just wanted to give a heads up to those who didn't.

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ziadel

I honestly dont think its possible to get a Modern 1911 that won't work with JHP ammo, cripes man, even the Colt WW models and the Springfield WWII models will function with JHP's with hardly a stutter....


Did you witness this firsthand? What kind of gun was it in and more importantly, in what state of repair? What kind of ammo? etc....


IMO you are overstating the case....

Mine worked with JHP's before it was even fully broken in... without a single malfunction...

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Dostoevsky

Well, I have heard this from a few experienced gunsmiths in person and quick google search led me to this:
"Although the classic 1911 design is extremely reliable with G.I. hardball ammunition, reliability with modern ammo of softpoint, hollowpoint or semiwadcutter design can be a sometimes thing. To its credit, the original design of the pistol will digest some pretty wild ammo designs almost all the time, but "almost all the time" is definitely not good enough when you must stake your life on a handgun. It must work all the time, every time with whatever you want to feed it!"

From this website: http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/r...ty_secrets.htm

I'm sure I could find some other references to this problem if I were so inclined....but I'm not. Just telling you guys what I've heard and read. No big deal to me either way as I don't own any 1911's.

-Dostoevsky

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ziadel

the article you quoted goes on to list things to do to get your 1911 to feed JHP's reliably, thing is tho, most guns come from the factory like this now...

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Dostoevsky

Yes Ziadel, I agree that most of the newer, well produced 1911's will do fine with hollow points, it's the older 1911's you have to be careful with because they are designed to fire ball ammo. The things I've heard and read about 1911 reliability issues with hollowpoints are still enough to deter me from enlisting one for SD purposes. I plan on buying one eventually for range purposes and just because they are in my opinion one of the nicest looking pistol designs.

Also, to the guys who were discussing hunting with a .45 ACP. In Georgia, there is no law against hunting with any specific round as long as it meets the energy requirement at 100 yards. The rules are that a round must mantain 500 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards and that the barrel must be atleast 6 inches. I know people who put 6 inch barrels in their glock 20's (10mm) and hunt whitetail that way because the hottest 10mm loads more than meet the energy requirements. It would be very hard to find a .45 ACP load that would meet the energy requirement, although it may be possible.

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ziadel

who the hell would take a 100yd shot with a pistol at a vital area thats 8"?


THATS just not responsible...

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Suave

Someone with a really good pistol and good aim?