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12-17-2007, 02:02 PM
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#42 (permalink) |
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follower of the child's crusade?
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Ive been robbed.
I KNOW I wouldnt kill someone to get my stuff back
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
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12-18-2007, 01:43 AM
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#43 (permalink) | |||
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Insane
Location: Learning to Fly...
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^^It's not about this. Quote:
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Okay, I've previously had a comment typed out for this thread and deleted it because I didn't feel it was necessary. Clearly it is. There's a huge misconception going on in this thread at the moment - that all gun owners are bloodthirsty and just want to shoot someone for breaking into their house and stealing their stuff. THIS IS NOT TRUE. Responsible gun owners are simply people who have realized that there are people in this world who have no regard for the sanctity of human life. Many of these people are criminals, most of whom are armed, and think the best way of getting ph4t l3wt is to rob someone's house or place of business. These people don't care if you live or die, or how you do so. Need a little reality check? Please watch this video: Alright, so I'll fess up: I own a handgun right now, and plan on owning at least one more, along with a good rifle. Once I get a CCW permit, I'll be carrying almost every day, helping to deter would be criminals, and generally making the world a safer place with no one the wiser (bless states which are shall-issue).The purpose of these weapons is to STOP, not to KILL. Killing the target may be a consequence of stopping them, but that is something that is a given when using ANY weapon against someone. As soon as there's a weapon created that will instantly shut down the central nervous system of a target with 100% reliability, guaranteed not to kill, and with the capability to follow up in case of misses (what does stress and adrenaline do to you?), I'll take 3. Until then, I favor a rifle. Guns can kill, dogs can kill, tasers can kill (and have), swords and knives can kill (and are very likely to). If you're not prepared to kill someone when using a tool capable of deadly force, you have no business bringing it to a fight, for it is just as likely to be taken from you. If you're not prepared to make that decision should it arise, you will falter, and you will die. The point I'm trying to make is that I will NOT use lethal force to stop someone from stealing my stuff, or to retrieve said stuff. That's what insurance is for. However, if I'm home, and someone, uninvited, is rummaging through my house or garage, they have made it my business, and I will investigate these felonies being committed on my property. I will be armed, and I will be PREPARED to use lethal force, in case they escalate the situation. There is NOTHING to stop a criminal with no regard for life from killing somebody just 'cuz. You may give them everything they want, and afterwards they may just as soon injure or kill you, for any reason - a show of strength, to avoid witnesses, just for fun, or for no reason at all. It's impossible to guess the motives of someone who does not think the same as normal human beings. This, in my mind, and in self defense laws, makes their lives immediately less valuable than mine and the lives of others once the intent of lethal force has been shown by them. Gun owners recognize this - they have made the conscious decision that if someone is threatening them or any other human with lethal force, the necessary action is to STOP them from carrying through with their intentions. We must realize that stopping them has a likely chance of their death, and thus their lives are worth less than the lives of others once force is shown. That was the criminal's decision, and that's sadly the way they made things have to be. Contrary to popular belief, few, if any, gun owners actually want to pull the trigger on someone - all it means is a world of hassle. The firearm used gets taken away immediately, we're probably arrested, our names get in papers, we must go through legal processes and fees, we may suffer hearing loss from firing said weapon, and our house has had blood shed in it - all of this costs a ton of money and grief, so anyone wanting it to happen to them is just nuts. The thing is, though, we're prepared to go through all that anyway, just to protect life. The ONLY thing that will make me pull the trigger on another human is the threat of equal force. There is also a side of that video of the Texas shooting which is missing. The media likes to make excuses for not showing the whole story, such as because of violent or traumatic content. The thing is, there's so much violence in our society that we're desensitized to it anyway - they're really deleting these things to influence people's opinions on important issues, like the right to self defense (duh  ). The thing about that video is that they didn't show that he went outside with his shotgun, announced his presence loudly and his ability to use force - he didn't just shoot them in the back out of cold blood. After announcing "Move, you're dead." to the robbers, there was a pause, and then the gunshots - it's possible (and likely) that he was acting in self defense at this point, if the robbers did not respond to his threat and reached for something instead. If so, at this point he was not defending his neighbors property, he was defending himself. Watch the video with shots here:The only difference between this shooting and the other story in this thread ( http://www.breitbart.tv/html/6697.html ) is that it was his neighbors property, and the criminals didn't do EXACTLY what the man wielding the shotgun ordered. I'll end this post with a quote that I'm especially fond of: "The rifle is a weapon. Let there be no mistake about that. It is a tool of power, and thus dependent completely upon the moral stature of its user. It is equally useful in securing meat for the table, destroying group enemies on the battlefield, and resisting tyranny. In fact, it is the only means of resisting tyranny, since a citizenry armed with rifles simply cannot be tyrannized. The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." -Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
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And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes. Oh, certainly, sir. Last edited by moot1337; 12-18-2007 at 11:53 AM.. |
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12-18-2007, 03:49 AM
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#44 (permalink) | |
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I Confess a Shiver
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Excellent post, Moot. I feel like I've said the same things over and over in these kinds of debates. The human factor always seems to be tilted the wrong way.
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Last edited by Plan9; 12-18-2007 at 03:52 AM.. |
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12-18-2007, 12:14 PM
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#45 (permalink) |
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Insane
Location: Learning to Fly...
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Edited to add 2 words to make it not a complete generalization... yeh caught me at 3 in the mornin
 Originally I tried to eliminate that later in the post, but it's probably better for it not to be so broad in the first place.Anyway, further comments: the neighbor who went out with his shotgun and ended up killing the two robbers - I would tip my hat to him, depending on the situation. Perhaps he didn't know if his neighbor was home, and not only wanted to stop the robbery, but wanted to make sure his neighbor was alright, and not bleeding to death from the crooks' assault. I think that either way he gets "neighbor of the year" award... Once enough cases like this happen, perhaps people will think twice about breaking in to another person's home, whether or not they're home, and expecting to get away scott-free and unharmed. They will in Texas, at least ^_^ I also disagree that owning a gun doesn't change you as a person - at least not for me, anyway. Before owning one and considering defending myself and others from deadly force, I had never seriously thought that other people's lives could be worth less than mine or those around me. Once you have the capability to return deadly force, it's something you have to examine pretty carefully. Sure, you see the death penalty used and hear about cops killing bad guys all the time, but once that decision is in your hands it really makes you think seriously about the subject. Do certain actions merit the immediate demise of the perpetrator of those actions? I have decided it to be true that other lives are worth less once deadly force has been shown - it's best to decide that now, instead of when/if the moment comes to use that force. It's sobering, to say the least. I'm not saying that owning one immediately qualifies you to use one, but many people that do own them have thought these thoughts, and get extensive training in their use because of it. Just because there are idiots and bad people who own guns doesn't mean that they're the only ones
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And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes. Oh, certainly, sir. |
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12-18-2007, 02:34 PM
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#46 (permalink) |
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Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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First off, taking a life while defending you and yours isn't something easily forgotten, however, It is YOU who must make the decision of whether the one or four assholes who busted down your door just want your TV or want your little girl as a plaything.
Second, if in shooting back at home invaders, you inadvertantly kill your neighbor, case law SHOULD hold the home invaders responsible. This is usually not the case though because we still have bleeding heart pro criminal and anti self defense politicians who will prosecute YOU because you had the temerity to defend yourself instead of submitting like a little peon and letting paid agents of the state clean up your dead body. Thirdly, if you find yourself faced with either beheading your opponent or sticking a 3 foot piece of steel through his rib cage, always hold the blade parralel to the ground so it doesn't jam itself between the bones.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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12-18-2007, 02:45 PM
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#47 (permalink) |
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I Confess a Shiver
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First point: I concur completely with your perspective on family defense.
Second point: Arguing fault is like arguing the shape of the universe. You can do it, but no one can ever really be 100% sure. Third: If all I have is a sword? I'm telling the guy I got a shotgun. |
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12-18-2007, 02:46 PM
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#48 (permalink) | |
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... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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I hope your neighbors all have very, very thick walls. And I hope they don't have your temerity. |
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12-18-2007, 05:43 PM
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#51 (permalink) | |||
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Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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12-18-2007, 05:49 PM
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#52 (permalink) | |
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... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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12-18-2007, 06:22 PM
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#53 (permalink) |
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warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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You know what would suck about killing in self-defense? If it were your spouse.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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12-18-2007, 06:34 PM
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#55 (permalink) | |
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warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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 "...the World Health Organization [found] that 40-70% of female murder victims in Australia, Canada, Israel, South Africa and the United States were killed by intimate partners."
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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12-18-2007, 06:41 PM
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#56 (permalink) | ||
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All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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And yes will, it was invented by an Israeli. Last edited by jorgelito; 12-18-2007 at 06:42 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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12-18-2007, 06:57 PM
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#57 (permalink) | |
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... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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, indeed. |
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12-18-2007, 10:52 PM
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#59 (permalink) |
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Warrior Smith
Location: missouri
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In my town we recently had a murder- a 50 year old grandmother working as a night clerk at a hotel was robbed- she handed over the money, and was then raped,sodomized, and brutally murdered by her 21 year old attacker......
Wil- you are clearly articulate, intelligent, and have as I understand it, been involved in violent incidents- and have chosen a radically different belief system than most of the people that I know who have been involved in similar situations - I respect your convictions, but having dealt with more than a few violently inclined people, I feel that your approach is naive- You, I fear, give people too much credit for being reasonable, perhaps because you are reasonable- To me, a person who chooses to break into my house is a mortal threat to my family, and I cannot trust them to stop at a point that a reasonable professional criminal might- like any responsible gun owner, I do not fire blindly, nor am I a bloodthirsty killer- I will always identify my target and what is behind it (including my neighbors houses) and given that a burglar does not attempt to attack me when confronted, I will gladly hold them at gunpoint for the police- But I will not allow someone to endanger my family so I can claim the moral high ground- hell, in my own mid sized college town, 2/3's of the home invasions we have had resulted in the homeowner being killed- not great odds for me letting them take the T.V.
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Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens |
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12-18-2007, 11:28 PM
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#60 (permalink) |
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Tilted
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You know what really sucks about killing in self defense: most women aren't taught how to do it!
As I read this thread, being the over-analyzing feminist cow that I am, I noticed a trend. Young daughters and "little" wives seem to come up rather a lot as subjects of defense. Now, I'm sure that you all are nice, enlightened people. Maybe you've just caught a particularly resistant strain of patriarchalsocietitis. I say this because none of you seem to have realized that the best way to defend women is to give them the means to defend themselves. Enough quibbling over how you should decide whether or not an intruder intends to rape your loved ones. Circumvent the problem by training women to defend themselves. Then if the intruder tries to pull her pants off, your little wife can blow off his head, instead of waiting for you to play he-man defender-of-the-family. Now, I know it isn't as if gun training isn't available for women, but if you talk about women as if they can't defend themselves, and tell them they don't need to because you will protect them, then women feel as if they don't have to learn these things, and in the end, that hurts everyone. Cut it out! Consider the implications of the way you talk about women! In the case of young children incapable of handling guns, I think sufficient argument has already been made. If you're going to take responsibility for someone's life, it is a greater evil to risk the life of your ward than risk the life of an intruder. You can't exactly play 20 questions with Johnny Robber over a cup of tea, and waiting to see what happens beyond announcing your presence and telling the robber to leave is an invitation for them to snatch the child and use it as a shield. As a further aside, I think that parents with teenaged daughters (say 14 and up) should consider giving them a gun for protection (along with extensive training). I know this seems like a risky proposition, but I think we tend to give teenaged girls too little credit. Yes, we can be giggly idiot-bags, but we have a right to self defense, we generally have the level of responsibility needed to control weapons, and we are much more likely to need to be able to defend ourselves. In closing, if nothing else can illustrate my point about women needing to be able to defend themselves (and I would contend that guns are most effective for women who do not have large physical stature or amazing martial skillz), Barakaguru's statistic should really grind it in: the self-proclaimed protectors of women, their husbands and boyfriends, are the ones most likely to kill them. Last edited by HedwigStrange; 12-18-2007 at 11:33 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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12-19-2007, 12:51 AM
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#61 (permalink) |
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Warrior Smith
Location: missouri
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my wife owned her own gun long before she met me, and already had survived being stalked by the crazy nazi that murdered her mother- I married her in part because she could handle herself in a fight, and she has taken several practical self defense courses ( by practical I mean lethal)- our daughter will learn to shoot, and will be getting her own battle rifle at some christmas in the future, as well as being enrolled in REAL martial arts (kali for one). Women should learn to defend themselves and their families, and if we have a problem of the bump in the night variety, my wife is an integral part of the equation for home defense- I will, however be in the front, as I have had more training, and as I consider myself more expendable than she is.....
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Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens |
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12-19-2007, 06:33 AM
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#62 (permalink) | ||
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Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." Last edited by dksuddeth; 12-19-2007 at 06:37 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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12-19-2007, 07:31 AM
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#63 (permalink) | |
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I Confess a Shiver
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Last edited by Plan9; 12-19-2007 at 07:35 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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12-19-2007, 09:56 AM
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#64 (permalink) |
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warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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I'm of the understanding that the "freezing up" is that brief moment when the mind and body are going into overdrive. The body is pumping full of adrenaline and the mind is gearing up for that ultimate decision: fight or flight.
It makes sense to me. I'm not sure there are many out there who would "lay down and die." This is likely a misconception. Even Buddhists would kill in defense.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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12-19-2007, 01:46 PM
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#68 (permalink) | |
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Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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I wish to watch you test this theory. 
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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12-22-2007, 07:04 PM
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#69 (permalink) | ||||
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The sky calls to us ...
Super Moderator
Location: CT
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As for me, I'm one of the large percentage of ADHD people whose brain structure is different enough that the freeze and panic reflexes are skipped and I go right into response mode. I've seen a few bad car accidents and other serious things happen, and I had always punched in 911 and hit send on my phone before everything stopped moving. One of my friends (also ADHD) is the same way, and he's a firefighter. I think peoples' immediate responses to any emergency situation is an interesting thing to study and analyze, far beyond the typical bystander effect and diffusion of responsibility that is covered in psychology 101. And I also want to see Crompsin vs. Buddhist Monks. It might even make Human Weapon worth watching. |
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12-22-2007, 07:22 PM
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#70 (permalink) | ||||
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warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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12-22-2007, 08:22 PM
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#71 (permalink) | |
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Young Crumudgeon
Location: Canada
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__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame |
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12-23-2007, 01:19 PM
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#72 (permalink) |
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I Confess a Shiver
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Question:
You're walking down a deserted street one night after a movie night out with your wife and two small children by your side. Suddenly, a desperate-looking crackhead with a huge Rambo knife comes around the corner and is running at you with the knife poised over his head, drooling and screaming obscenities. In your hand is a loaded Glock pistol and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do? Metrosexual Yuppie Answer: Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion. Man Answer: *BANG!* Last edited by Plan9; 12-23-2007 at 01:21 PM.. |
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12-23-2007, 02:05 PM
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#73 (permalink) |
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... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Wait, I'm a liberal yuppie.
My answer: Disarm and disable. Separating someone from a knife is actually very simple, and once you've gotten the knife not only are they not armed, but they know you are and you're capable. Worst case? After I take his knife, he continues to attack and I have to put him in some basic lock (preferably knocked out but not otherwise injured). I could shoot him, in this scenario, but then I will have killed someone. That doesn't sit right with me. |
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12-23-2007, 04:29 PM
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#75 (permalink) | |
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Upright
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Also as will said, its not that hard to disarm someone with a knife if you know what you're doing, especially some crackhead who probably doesn't have much experience with said knife. Last edited by ENolaReve; 12-23-2007 at 04:33 PM.. |
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12-23-2007, 05:01 PM
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#76 (permalink) |
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I Confess a Shiver
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Ugh, nevermind. I figured everybody would pull some Chuck Norris gunplay crap.
Expert shots shoot center mass. That comes from training. Shooting at moving legs is not only nearly impossible but missing may harm an innocent bystander. Disarming a running man with a knife isn't that hard if you have the training and experience and big brass balls, but let's assume that you don't want to risk some adrenalin-juiced nutbag from dropping a 12" piece of sharpened steel across your flesh. The primary selling point of firearms is that they have range. I don't want to get close to someone who is trying to hurt me. ... Hahaha... I totally just pulled a DK. |
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12-24-2007, 12:53 PM
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#77 (permalink) | |
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Upright
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wtf...
