Dungeon_Shade

Ok, I know that you are all sick of me asking stuff like this, but you kind people are the only ones who can help me. I think in order to help, you might need to know my story. It's a long one. Here goes. I think telling people this will help. I think it will be a kind of therapy. Who needs therapists when you have TFP?

My kindergarden year, I met a girl that I, even at my young age, fell in love with. I only saw her for a few seconds, but I was instantly in love. I didn't even know what love meant, but I knew whatever I felt for her was different. I didn't see her until my second grade year. Before second grade, I talked to a TON of girls. I mostly hung out with females, because I could make them laugh easily. I liked the attention. I had a few "flings", if you can call them that, at such an early age, before I saw the girl again in second grade. The moment I walked into the classroom, I knew it was the girls I saw in kindergarden. I had almost forgotten about her. I didn't tell anyone for a while that I liked her. It took about half a year until I did. She found out, and we started hanging out. Alot. She followed me everywhere, and we did cute, elementry school stuff. We never kissed. During this time, I was still able to talk to women. Third Grade, I didn't have any classes with her, but we still talked to eachother occasionally. In fourth grade, I had all my classes with her, and we hit it off REALLY well. I hung out with her friends, all of which were female, and we all liked eachother very much.

Fifth grade is when things started to fall apart. I didn't have any classes with any of the students I grew up with. For some reason, despite the fact that my grades were the best in the school, they put me in the "dumb" class. The teachers wanted me to make the "dumb" kids smarter. the teachers told me this. I wasn't stimulated, and my grades started to fail. I stopped talking to the people I used to talk to my whole life. Then I got sent to social services because of some dumbass thing the neighbor kids did. I was told that experimentation with females is bad, etc. The usual social services bull shit. On february, I gave all my old friends valentine cards, male and female, to rekindle old friendships. The girls made fun of me ruthlessley. I became very quiet. I finally asked the girl I liked alot if she wanted to go skiing with me. I was going with her cousin, and he suggested I ask her to come with. She was indecisive, saying her parents were a little uneasy about it (which is understandable now, but I was in fifth grade and didn't even know sex existed). Finally she said she couldn't go. No problem.

The last day of school, and I asked her to hang out with me, because I was moving to Boulder. When I called, I heard her scream, and one of her friends said she went and hid somewhere in the bushes outside. I felt like shit. But my parents said that maybe she did it because it was the first time someone asked her to go on a "date". We were both twelve. Two weeks later, one of her friends called me and said, "She is at one of her cabins in Telluride. And besides, she doesn't like you".

I wanted to die for a few weeks, and I moved to Boulder.

Before anyone thinks I am a clingy, over-complimenting stalker type, it isn't who I was. I was the popular kid until fifth grade, before I geve the valantine cards.

I couldn't stand Boulder. My grades were awful, and I pretty much gave up. In one short year, I went from the kid that all the teachers loved, to the kid that teachers thought was dangerous (mostly because in my hometown school, JnCO jeans were a huge fad. The teachers their knew what it was, but the ones at Boulder didn't. I found out that I am skinny at Boulder. People picked on me alot in Boulder. I fought almost daily. I got spat on, all because of my cheesy image. I became even more introverted.

I went back to my hometown.

I was not greeted warmly. The second most popular kid, one who was always competing with me, was the head of the grade. My welcome was not a warm one. He was nice to me in person, but people told me that he talked shit about me behind other people's backs. I was convinced that I was less then him. I followed him around like a stray dog, trying to be popular. It never worked. I was the skinny, nerdy kid who always got picked on. Most of middle school was like this, as well as my freshman year in high-school. I had two or three friends that I hung out with, and I always tried to hang out with the popular group. During my freshman year, I changed my look to appease the preps. I started wearing Abercrombie clothing. One of my best friends dated the girl I was obsessed with, right after he told me all this stuff about her to make me mad at her. I haven't been on good terms with him since.

My sophomore, I found out I was good at acting, but I was still introverted. On Christmas Eve, my house burned down, and I think it was my fault. I lit some candles, my family left the house, and it burned down. The popular kid moved away that summer.

My Junior year, I met the first girl I was able to have a relationship with. For some reason, I was my funny, outgoing self around her. She kissed me on the cheek the morning after I met her, which was my first "kiss". I found out the next day she had a boyfriend. I was pissed, but not pissed enough to stop hanging around with her. She eventually dumped him, and we made out one night. That was the first real kiss I had. She dumped me the day after.

After that, I started to grow up a little. My senior year was a little bit better. I began to talk (nervously) to girls again. I ended up getting Prom King and I was voted funniest person. But I hadn't even kissed anyone until this year, my freshman year in college (more on that later).

The night of the last day of school, I went to a party with alot of people. The Girl's best friend was there. She was drunk, and I was drunk. We talked alot, and she apologized for being a bitch. She also told me how amazing my acting is, and she said that she had a dream that I died. She also told me that the Girl and her always talk about me and that they think it is cute that I asked her out. We exchanged cell phone numbers.

I felt great. But the rest of the night, she seemed really distant. I didn't know why until a few days later.

I left my wallet at the beach we were at, with a condom in it.

My friend told me that she was making fun of me for it at a party I didn't go to. He said she had my wallet. I called her only one time. I asked for my wallet, got it from her, and haven't talked to her since.

Now, here in college (I'm almost done! Hooray!) I met a few girls, and have done better at being able to talk to them. But not much better. It is only with the aid of David D'Angelo's material that I am able to talk to girls. But it isn't much of an improvement. Now I seem like too much of an ass.

Anyhow, last weekend, the girl I made out with drove eight hours with my family to see a play that I put on. We made out at a party. I was drunk, she wasn't. It was the first time I had a girl touch me where the sun don't shine, and the first time I touched a female's breasts. You probably don't want to know that, but that is the furthest I have gotten. I think I pushed her too far. I tried getting down her pants, and failed. She told me afterwards that she has a boyfriend.



Anyhow, that is my story. I need you to help me break out of my shell, so that I can meet people who aren't insane. Should I try to get hold of the girl that gave me her cell phone? Am I right in being mad at her? I am also scared to talk on phones, because of the trauma. Should I see a psychiatrist or should i just try, slowly, to break out of my shell?

I'm sorry if this post seems insulting, because I know there are people with worse lives than me. I just needed to get it off my chest. This is the first time I have told all this. I haven't even told my parents or friends. I really do feel better, now that I have gotten this off my chest. Thank you for listening, and for your input.

__________________
"If you can hear this whispering you are dying."- Pink Floyd

Suave

Who the hell is David D'Angelo, if you don't mind my asking?

<- Most useful post ever, I know, but I honestly don't have a clue as to how to advise you right now.

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

Martian

EDIT - A quick Amazon search reveals that David Deangelo has a series of self help books on relating to women. I particularly like the look of the one titled 'How I Got Laid Today'. Throw the damn things in the trash, you don't need them.

There's one line that jumped out at me :

Clearly not enough.

Sorry to be harsh, but the only problem you have is self esteem. You need to wake up and realize that this isn't high school anymore and that girls are not scary and will not laugh at you for asking them out on a date. You did not get to be homecoming king if there is nothing positive about you, so I know that it doesn't stem from looks or any other deficiency. Your sole problem is confidence and bottom line is we can't do anything for you there. You just have to be a man, bite the bullet and do it. Rejection is part of dating and you'll learn that, but the obnly way to learn is to get out there and do it. So stop whining to us and get out there.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

tecoyah

Seriously....The Alien above me speeks the truth^^^^^

Do Not Fear Rejection, because if you never ask....the answer is definately....NO

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

d*d

nothing in your post points to anything exceptional which could justify being shy around girls, you had your teenage years and have come out at the other end, now leave them alone and stop analyzing them

pje120

Hi Dungeon_Shade:

Reading through your post shows me a lot of experiences that don't really have any relevance to the topic, talking to girls. I understand that it doesn't look like this to you, otherwise you wouldn't have go to the trouble to write them all out.

What will help you now is to read through your post and do some self-analysis. Obviously these experiences are somehow related to your shyness: you know this, or why would you have opened yourself up by explaining them? So analyse them, even if it is uncomfortable, and remember that you will only benefit from this as far as you are honest to yourself.

I mean, look at the stuff you wrote about. Experiences when you were 12?! Girls are entirely different from when they are 12, you are totally different, and you look totally different. So where is the relevance of these situations? Even more obviously irrelevant is that your house burnt down. What does this have to do with girls? I am not saying you shouldn't have described them, or that they didn't affect you. They did, obviously, but the point is they shouldn't have. They are suppressed memories that you haven't learnt from. I know they are suppressed, otherwise you wouldn't have felt you were "getting it off your chest". But by suppressing them doesn't stop them from affecting your thinking, so you need to bring them out.

You are at one point, where these experiences have affected you, and you want to be somewhere else, where the experiences do not restrict you. But the only way you are going to get from here to there is by going back over the experiences and learning the good and rejecting and forgetting the rest. This is a hard thing to do if you are understanding what I am saying. You've already done part of the way by writing it all down. You said you felt better from just doing this, because you're part of the way. Now you just need to continue to confront the experiences with honesty. Honesty is the most important thing. It is absolutely necessary.

This is the solution. You mentioned seeing a psychiatrist. You can, if you want, and they will walk you through this if you allow them. Therapy is not possible through an internet forum. Although through instant messaging it's possible, it's still MUCH easier for the psychiatrist face to face with someone. It is not necessary if you understood the method I have described, you can do it by yourself.

skysooner

This sounds so much like me at that age it was almost scary. I had my first girlfriend at age 12, and it was about the same way. Nobody knows who they are at that age, so their perception of who they should be is shaped by the popular kids or television. Not even the popular kids know who they are, but whatever they are doing seems to work for them, so they continue it.

In high school, I started to have a bunch of success with women, but it was based on how I looked and not in any way about how I talked to them. I was much too bright for my own good and was interested in the world and how it worked rather than the things most kids were worried about. It didn't make for long-standing relationships with women. Instead it made for great physical relationships for a brief time. However I still had no clue about how to really talk to women.

Along came my wife in the last part of my college years. She couldn't talk to men any better than I could talk to women. We met through a personal ad and talked on the phone. I had always been able to talk to women on the phone instead of personally since there was no real pressure to be cool and body language wasn't an issue. We hit it off and have been married for 14 years. In that time, she has made me much more comfortable with myself as a person. I can talk to her about anything. She did give me some good advice one time though. She said, why can't other people see the funny you that I can. I finally realized that I was letting "stage fright" get to me, and I was putting on an act in public instead of being me.

Here it is many years later and now I can talk to women. You know what the secret it? Don't overthink it and just talk. Don't overwhelm them, listen when they talk, respond appropriately and don't let any rejection get to you. Of course it is a little easier when you are married and not looking to end up with someone. If you approach all women like this though when you are single, you will meet some cool women. If I hadn't been married, there are at least a few recently that would most definitely have gone out with me.

Two situations stand out. There is this really cute Asian girl who is in our IT group. I knew her peripherally and had always thought she seemed shy. She was coming into my office to do a 30 minute software install. I noticed that she had a wedding band on which I had not noticed before. I simply asked her how long she had been married. She said 3 years and what began was a long conversation about her marriage, where she was from originally and what she thought about growing up in Oklahoma the last few years. When she left, she said, "You are so easy to talk to. Most people around here think I am weird". The second happened this morning. I have seen a woman who works in another office in our building quite a bit over the last couple of years. I have always found her to be attractive, but she always had this deer in the headlight looks that didn't allow for approaching. Since I am not trying to actually meet someone, I always felt like she was guarded (i.e. not in an approachable frame of mind). I noticed awhile back that she was losing weight. While she wasn't heavy to begin with, she was losing a little weight that made her more attractive. I hadn't seen her in almost 3 months recently when I saw that she was in the little cafe downstairs waiting for food. I always get a morning bagel there and went in. I smiled at her, and she seemed receptive. So I approached her and said I had noticed that she had lost weight and what program did she use. She immediately said Weight Watchers. This was the same program I used to lose 65 lbs, so we had something to talk about. I found out her name, the fact that she doesn't have children yet and her eating habits. I shook her hand, said nice to meet you and went back to my office. Now I have a new friend. This is something I would not have been able to do years ago, because I would have overthought it. I met a nice person, made a good impression, and it was me.

Doing this can serve you through life in many different ways.

ratbastid

Your college almost certainly has a counselling service. Go to it. NOT because you're messed up, but because you have self-esteem issues that you're only now beginning to work through.

The bottom line is this: you're living in the past. You have this whole story and rationale for why you can't talk to girls and why you've never gotten laid and why you're such a loser, etc, etc, etc. But that's ALL the past talking. You're not looking into you future and seeing the wide open space that the future always is, always has been, and always will be. Instead you see more of the same--people reacting like they did before, you being ways you've been before, etc. But that's not the future at all! That's the past! It's over!

Bill O'Rights

Ding! Ding! Ding! And Ding!
Your past is not your future...unless you let it be. Look, the high school/teenage years were a son-of-a-bitch for most of us. Mine included. My teenage years could've been an ABC Afterschool Special. But, that was then, and I live in the here and now.
You can choose one of two things here. you can either languish in what was, and cannot be changed. Or, you can choose to look forward into the realm that you have complete and total control over. I'm hoping that you choose the latter.
I think that you need to loosen up a little. Slough off that old Dungeon_Shade. He's gone. Just...be yourself. Don't try to be anything else. That just doesn't work. Do that...and I think that you'll find the pieces of your life begin to fall into their respective places.
Oh, and hey...good luck.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

air45

have you try new cologne? some of these smell have "pheromone" -- this mean it is animal odor that make a lady have moist vaginas. they do not know why but it is nature! they cannot help this! it is animal!

you can buy this smell on internet. try some googgle on "animal sex smell". if you have worry, purchase a wee bottle so you don't spend dollars crazy.

when you smell the way, the lady come to YOU for talk and yes to sexing!

abaya

Dungeon, from your post I thought you were a graduating senior or something. But then I read another post of yours in a different thread, and I saw this... So can you tell us the truth, because it would help me (for one) understand where you are at in terms of emotional development/maturity, just by knowing how far out of high school you are. (I taught high school for a couple of years, so I know how intense the memories of elementary + jr. high seem to people at that age... but by your senior year+ of college, that stuff becomes pretty trivial.)

And just off the cuff, it does seem like you are locked into your past... I mean, I kept a really detailed journal when I was growing up, going through all that stuff, too. But if I was still writing in such detail about those things (kindergarten??) in my 20s, I'd have to say that I'd be borderline obsessive-compulsive. And believe me, I do overanalyze the past!... but man, you are suffering from serious paralysis-by-analysis.

I highly recommend counseling at your university (I've been there, and I'm still doing that, and I know about half of the graduate students in my dep't are doing it, so don't chalk it up to something for weaklings).

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

irishlass54

Jay'sus and I thought we women over-analyzed! Are you normal? Not a freak? And can you listen? Really listen to what a woman is saying? Then that is what we want. Get out of your own head and stop taking yourself so seriously!! If you learn to laugh at yourself, you will relax and suddenly the women will be there!

777

^ key word, relax. Also, keep your sense of humor with you.

__________________
"I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip."

Roger Zelazny

Halx

I can relate.

I actually become mentally and physically paralyzed in most social situations where I want to do something, but the fear of "what's gonna happen if.." takes over my thought process.

Here is just one of many tips to a better experience:

Confide in a friend and have that friend PUSH you into situations.
Example: I was eyeing this girl across from me on the subway one day.. she had the most amazing eyes and lips. I could tell she was looking at me too. Buddah was hanging out with me, and he noticed my attraction to this girl. Luckily, we we got off at the same stop.

So there I was, walking up a hallway behind this girl and Buddah urging me to go up to her and ask her something, like.. where she is from. The thoughts I had running through my head were, "Okay, that's a dumb thing to ask her. Everyone gets asked that stupid question. I'm gonna go up to her and she's just gonna look at me funny. She'll think I'm creepy for checking her out for the last 20 minutes." Well.. Buddah pushed me.

I jogged up to her and said, "Hi." After that, my brain was wiped clean of anything I had planned to say. She took off her headphones and said, "Hello." I tried to force something out... "I..." and.. you know how they say some people are "too dumb to lie"? Well, at that moment, I was too dumb to think of anything, so all that came out was the complete and utter truth. "I... couldn't stop looking at you. What's your name?" She told me her name and she told me I had amazing eyes. I couldn't think of much else to say than, "I'm Andrew and.. uhh.. likewise!"

The rest of the story is fun too, but the point is.. cool, unexpected things happen when you step out there.

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[Don't Feed The Animals]

hunnychile

\Halx?! Of all the people I've read on this forum, I am so impressed that you are open enough to admit you get tongue tied (HA!) or shy-ish around women. You did the right thing at the subway, perhaps you should also say,"I'm sorta new in NYC but here's my number if you want to make a new friend." It sounds corny - but it would be so totally sweet and un-creepy to any nice open minded young lady you really do would like to meet. Create a business card, that's like the old fashioned "calling card" that gentlemen & ladies used to share between eachother...that's pretty romantic in my mind.

We have missed hearing from you here BTW!

__________________
"I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

777

Another thing you can trick, is to use a "gimick" to break the ice. A friend of mine from high school would keep "Now & Later" candy in his pocket to offer. I hear PeZ works great too. What I do, is walk up to a gal, whip out my camera phone, point it at her, and say "Smile." Just have fun with it until you learn to relax, or follow through and get her number to chat with her later. And thanks for reminding me Hunnychile, I need to get some name cards too. If she calls me before I call her, then know I left a great impression.

__________________
"I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip."

Roger Zelazny

Nimetic

Hey that's not a bad story. While one poster said that parts were irrelevant - I don't think this is the case. You've put down the experience as you feel it. It doesn't have to be logical, this is life as you've experienced it. I can relate to that.

For those that experience life differently. Lay off. We're all different.

What works for me? Or not maybe... I've not had great experiences with women , but I've coped ok with that.

- Hobbies are good. If it you are serious about meeting girls, maybe ones which
include women. If women are important, but less important than being yourself,
just pick activities that you enjoy. When I was in my teens/twenties I did
weights and martial arts 3-5 hrs a day, played piano, volunteer work. I felt
incredible. When you are achieving stuff, life can be wonderful. This helped
me put relationships into perspective. I was doing what I wanted... if there
were no girls handy, that was their poor luck the way I saw it.

- It's ok to see a counsellor (spelling?)... they have no magic advice but heck it
can be nice to talk sometimes. Especially if they are attractive : >

- Hypnotherapy (even a self hypnosis tape) can be useful in times of major
pain/stress. Seriously, it works for me - but not every time on first listen.
Anyway, it can attenuate self-doubt or pain.

- You probably take the opinion of women too seriously. I did. Look. How many
of your male friends do you take seriously as a judge of character. Of those,
how many have blinkers on (or rose coloured glasses) when it comes to women.

Ok - now apply the same logic, to the opposite sex. Now realize, that if a
random woman ignores you or calls your polite approach sleazy, this is
meaningless. Heck, for all the women who have ignored me I have had another
approach me with an offer. And you what (laughing). I found them sleazy.

Why, because they never talked to me after than one first time. But man, I
still wanted to hear from them again.

(Laughing).

So call her back eh. Even if you've heard rumours. Ask her about them. But
then go try another woman... the more you meet the less seriously you'll
take this.

Suave

I think I love you now Hal. That's me 24/7 (I'm not stupid, I swear :P ).

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

Dungeon_Shade

Haha, no I'm a freshman in college, I meant that I was almost done with the story haha, sorry for the confusion.

And the fire stuff probably was irrelivant, I just got on a role!

__________________
"If you can hear this whispering you are dying."- Pink Floyd

Poppinjay

I.... I think I'm falling in love with Air45.

Damn pheremones.

Shade, I can understand your situation in Boulder. The whole town is very cliqueish despite having a rep as a hippie bastion. All I can say is, don't buy anymore how to get laid books, and don't fall for any cologne gimmick. You like acting, drama girls are always the freaks. Stick with that, and you should have no problem.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

HoneyPot

I think you are living in your past. If you've grown up, move on and look at the relationships ahead of you. Love/Relationships are not easy, thats for sure. I've been in the 'single' boat for a while. You just have to have self confidence. Don't be so down on youself... Quit thinking you're nutty. Relax and let things come to you... Don't hunt for the prey.... They'll eventually come around. Work on your image and self esteem... girls are drawn to a guy with alot of confidence without being overly egotistical...
Good Luck

__________________
Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder.

raveneye

Lack of confidence = lack of experience

Just do it, you'll get the hang of it really fast.

Dungeon_Shade

Ok, I have listened to what all of you have said, and I have had alot of success with women so far. Instead of trying to get laid, I try to meet women to see if that person is interesting.

I have also dumped my dating books, and I now know what "being myself" is. I used to think that being myself was something completely different than what it really is. I'm no longer overly nice, because I realized that I was nice to get people to like me.

Now I say what I want, when I want, and it's amazing how much more people respect me.

I still screw up every now and then, like "trying" to be funny, even though i know that i am funny without trying, and I sometimes say stuff to get someone to like me, but for the most part, I am better.

Oh, and I just got asked out by a girl . I know that it isn't exactly manly to be asked out, but, hey, I succeeded in what i was trying to do, so, hey, I can't complain.

I will keep all of you updated on what happens to me on this thread. I am suddenly very addicted to this site, as I have finally realized what it is about. It isn't trying to get the most posts, or posting to see the titty board, it is about sharing your feelings and opinions to other people!

__________________
"If you can hear this whispering you are dying."- Pink Floyd

Shadefire

Dungeon-
Glad to see that being yourself seems to be working for you. It's always nice to know that people like you as you are

I was the same way, only with guys. I would have a crush on somebody and fantisize about them asking me out but never do anything about it. Then one day when I was a freshman in college my friends made me finally ask out a guy I had been obsessing over. We never actually went out, but it freed me to do things like that for myself.

I guess what I'm saying is, get out there, be yourself and you will see that you will make friends without actually trying as hard as you have been.

__________________
I was covered in blood, but it wasn't mine, so it was okay. - Anita Blake

Dungeon_Shade

Haha, Shadefire, I know exactly how you feel. I also fantasized about girls asking me out, and it never happened... Until two days ago, when I finally realized that I can't sit around waiting for something to happen. Now that I have kinda broken out of my shell, I have noticed girls that like me that I never tought did, just because I look at others and how they feel instead of worrying about my own petty problems.

Still need alot of work though.

__________________
"If you can hear this whispering you are dying."- Pink Floyd

HedwigStrange

Growl. It is truly the mark of the slimeball to push a girl too far. If I were a dog, I'd raise my hackles and take a chunk out of your balls.

However, nice job for ditching the "How to Get Laid" books.

Dungeon_Shade

HedwigStrange, I found out today that I didn't push the girl too far. She said she enjoyed it, but the fact that she had a boyfriend freaked her out, so she made me stop. Good girl. I must say, with my lack of experience, it was really awkward for me. Ah well, I'll learn.

__________________
"If you can hear this whispering you are dying."- Pink Floyd