Mantus

Is it possible to win a girl that rejects you at first?

There is a real defeatist attitude among men these days. She said "no", so I give up. Worse still, if they do decide to continue pursuing the girl they end up doing it in a kind of tame - give her space - just be friends - sort of way.

Yet almost every romantic story you read or see on TV features the guy actually winning over the girl, despite earlier rejections.

Is this a case of fantasy vs. reality or have modern men become wimps with soft egos?

I have to admit that I am afraid of having my ego bruised. I only go for women who are responcive from the start and rarelly if ever both with one's who give me the cold shoulder right away. With the acception of my first girlfriend, who way my biggest enemy before we started dating. Ofcourse I was differnt back then. I feel that this culture of ours changed me for the worse somehow.

Jinn

A lot of it has to do with the harsh punishments for "sexual harassment" that there are nowadays. While there are a few well-intentioned men out there trying to pursue their love, there are just as many creeps who would use that protection to harass women. If you chase a girl after she says NO, you've now jumped into the realm of sexual harassment. Part is legislation, part is ego.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Glory's Sun

I just want to point out that men have <i>always</i> had soft or delicate egos. It's not just the "modern" man. Some men are better at hiding their bruises than others.

Leto

What? You mean "ASL?" isn't enough courtship?

genuinegirly

I don't know that sexual harassment has much to do with it. My real question is: Was the age-old ideal of courting a reality? Or was it just a fantasy laid out by women who longed for a man (or men) to chase after her? I have made some love interests insane by requesting a "courting" mentality: was this ever something that men would try? I'd love to know if this truly is a lost art.

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

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Glory's Sun

I don't think "courting" is dead. I think it just advances more rapidly now. In the old days (yes I use that term lightly) it was a drawn out process almost like a job interview. In todays society, people move and respond at a much faster pace and don't have time for all the "application" types of rituals.

denim

"Sexual harassment" has to do with specific situations, like at work. You might be thinking of "stalking". Believe it or not, it's possible to keep after a woman after she turns you down w/o having to worry about either of these. It's a matter of persistance and technique.

For instance, Once Upon a Time, there was this coed I was going to school with. Bright, pretty, bright. Did I say she was bright? Well, she was. Anyway, she was the kind with a cloud of guys around her. I was more persistant than any of them, and had classes with her at times. We'd sit together. I'd call her on the phone. After around 15 months of this, I'd convinced her I was interested for real, that I was a real person, and she wanted to continue.

Harassment? Nope. Sometimes, a person just takes a while to warm to you, or vis versa.

Charlatan

Well after Froggy went a courtin' it all just went down hill from there...

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
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Turbotom

I said "no" to a girl once...She became a close friend and she won me over!
You might consider sticking around, supporting someone, and loving someone "courting;" it's just different now.

StanT

My wife turned me down a couple of times over an 8 year span before we finally stared dating. No persistance involved, we went our separate ways, ran into each other again, and apparently I was more interesting the third time around.

I take no, as no. I'm really not interested in games, courtship or otherwise.

Turbotom

It's not always games. It's usually uncertainty. Sometimes it's as simple as one person is just too busy to notice, have time to care, or worried about other things.
A relationship should be built on friendship.

Jinn

edit: double post..

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Jinn

Harassment? Yep. Did she press charges? Nope. That's the difference -- if she really wants to, she can sue you for it.

After she's said "no", further advances are now "unwanted" under the legal letter of the law. If a girl says "no", I'm not going to waste my time pursuing it.. ESPECIALLY if I can get in legal trouble for doing so.


"Behaviors such as sexual joking and commentary, touching, or requests for dates.."

Sexual Harassment.

"a man putting his arm on a woman or patting her on the shoulder"

Sexual Harassment.

If your advances are refused at any point, you are not making "unwanted advances" and there are "unheeded declines." In doing so, you've created the "hostile environment" specified in the act, and are guilty of sexual harassment. THAT is why courting is gone.

Unfortunately, it almost has to be this way, or men could defend legitimate sexual harassment with the excuse of "courting."

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Robert_XX

Why all this legalistic argument? If you're even a half-way sensitive individual and there's mutual respect between the parties, you'll know the difference between "no, but by all means try harder" and "no, i really want you to stop this". And there are ways of suggesting you're still interested other than simply repeating the words "will you go out with me?" ad nauseum.

Personally I'm probably oversensitive to a 'no' and have too much pride to keep trying, but it depends entirely on the manner of the rebuff and how much I feel I'm being pissed around. I have in the past given girls more than one chance. In the case of a particularly hot babe I allowed myself to be stood up three times before I pulled the plug for good.

I seriously doubt that there really was a golden age of courting, and would bet that it's largely a myth from film and literature.

World's King

Just stay out of the bush in front of her house.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

denim

That's key, fer shur. One person recently turned me down in the other way, and I've let her be. Different situation, different person. You can't really make relationships into some kind of no brainer. They require thought.

Jinn

Because I'm not so niave to think that a "woman" wouldn't change her mind in a heart beat and go from "consenting" to "non-consenting" if it means a fat check in her back pocket.

Nonwithstanding the fact that saying "no" when you really mean "yes, pursue me more" is fucking ridiculous, it opens the reciever up for legal liability. If I were having sex with a girl and she were screaming "NO! NO! NO!" in a moaning, pleasured, ecstatic way.. I'd stop. She said no, if I keep going.. I'm raping her. Even if she's consenting now. You keep going man.. and in 5 years when your relationship is on the rocks you'll be having a sharply dressed prick at your door with a court summons. Don't be so niave as to think it can't happen.

(that's why I think courting has died, for me)

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Janey

it's enough for me!

Xazy

My wife first said no to me (when I proposed, well technically maybe even 2 times), but after stalking her, I began to grow on her like fungus. Needless to say happily married for almost 2 years now (6 1/2 years since first date).

Ustwo

Time is precious.

If a woman expects me to possibly waste it chasing after her, despite a string of 'no'es just because she wants to play hard to get she has another thing comming to her. My guess is such a woman would be high maintenance and by chasing after her you have set an awful presidence for the rest of the relationship.

Low maintenance = good.

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Jinn

So, it turns out I'm a bit hyprocritical. It came to my attention today that my girlfriend did in fact say "No." when I asked her out the first time. So, in reality, ..well... I got nothin'.

But still.. uhh.. don't let a girl lead you down a road of No's.. yea...

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Robert_XX

But it hasn't happened! Not to me, not to anyone I know, in the 20 years of my adult life. Not one sexual shenanigan has ever ended up in court. So it's just not something I ever think about. I don't think that's naive (note spelling ).

World's King

Nothing like lying to yourself.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

Suave

It was a fantasy created in around the 16th century by male poets/bards who had nothing better to do than dream up the whole concept of romanticism. Until that point, no one had any illusions about the state of relationships, and having candle-lit dinners with flowers were not required.

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JoseFlanders

asfd

little_tippler

Sometimes when you're really "in love" with someone, no isn't going to stop you trying again. Sometimes you just know that person is the one for you. My SO's sister knew her husband for years at school and he was younger than her, and always pestering her to go out with him. She thought he was an annoying brat. They became friends of sorts, then close friends, and then one day she suddenly thought....oh I think I...like him actually. And now they're married. They're in their 20's. So. Romance and courtship aren't dead.

Sometimes no is no, but other times it's just no, it's not the right time. Eh harrassment...come on. Unless the person intrudes in your life significantly...

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Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

Daoust

Is this thread about courting or about the legality of 'no means no'? I'm going to discuss the former.

While I too agree that courting is dead (and I consider courting and dating to mean different things, but by dating I mean exclusively dating the same person over a period of time) I think that dating is very important if what you're looking for a long term relationship that ends in marriage or mutual exclusivity.

My wife and I dated for close to four years before we got married. After a few months of dating we realized we wanted to get married, but we weren't ready, or able at that time. Our aim and intention was to get married, so we used the dating time to get to know one another, to ensure that if we were to get married we would be compatable. For close to one full year of those four years of dating the two of us were at least 15 hours away from each other, and we remained in contact solely through the phone, e-mail, and letters. I believe that period was crucial for us. We actually learned about each other. We were able to express our feelings, thoughts etc. in a different way than if we were in the same room. Not to say that we preferred this method all the time (obviously we'd rather have been together), but while it was our circumstance we made the most of it, and really found it to be a good thing for us.

I realize my circumstances are different than most. I realize that dating and relationships have changed a lot over the last generation. But I just thought that I would add that some people still date, and enter into long term relationships with the intention of marrying that person one day.

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minyn

Its possible. i shot down the guy i am now with after he hit on me horribly. but he pulled the friends attitude and god that is amazing when it happens.

persistance, within reason, has the capacity to overcome. if she's worth it, youll know.

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