Poetry

This seemed to be a topic of interested in another thread, and I found it discomforting to see that people were referring to the FBI's Uniform Crime Report for their rape statistics.

The article below is about what is not included in the UCR's definition of rape. While I do not necessarily agree with all that the author writes, I would like to point out that, as always, reports on topics in humanities fields are never as reliable as we would like to believe.

I'm curious as to, after reading this article, if you were doing a study on rape, how would you definite rape and why would you include or exclude certain items?

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"You know what? Fuck the moon! He controls our water and our women. I've had enough!"

Plan9

Indeed.

The limitations of the UCR definition for "Forcible Rape" (their term for that particular index crime) are quite clear and nobody in the criminal justice field outside of Alabama would argue that it shouldn't be updated to reflect all the hot-hot non-consensual sodomy here in 2010. That aside, I wouldn't get too frazzled about the scope of the UCR as it has several gigundo facets that you have to know before you get excited about any info it contains:

1. It only includes crimes (29 categories total) that are reported to the police and properly documented (most crimes, particularly rape, go unreported as people are either unaware that they can report the crime, ashamed of what happened, scared of the police or somehow involved in the crime itself)
2. It is strictly voluntary for law enforcement agencies to report data (it has a high participation rate, but obviously not close to 100%)
3. It only includes and only includes the "top" crime (for example, if a woman is raped and murdered, only the murder counts).

The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) is run by the Census Bureau (obviously non-law enforcement) tool one uses to compare for queries regarding crime reporting frequency. If 10 rapes are reported to the police and 50 are reported in the NCVS, the odds of a 100 rapes having had actually occurred is pretty good. Or so DoJ estimates. The NCVS has limitations, too. I mean, it's a survey. False reports, telescoping--you name it.

You can argue that the UCR/NCVS are inaccurate tools with shitty definitions... because they are... but they're all we've got right now.

...

I won't get into the "definition of rape" thing because it includes a whole lot of stuff I beat to death in college.

"Requisite penetration," the "sexual assault threshold," and the old "Is it rape if she regrets it later?" bomb.

...

And you can hardly blame UCR stats for the dry coffers of local and state law enforcement agencies.

No local taxes, no justice. It has more to do with the shitty economy, the housing crash in particular.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Charlatan

I've always subscribed to the idea that No Means No (even if moments earlier it was a yes).

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Sheepy

Is there a word for women/men who are turned on by being pushed into it?

So they say 'no' but really want you to keep going.

But anyway! According to the American Medical Association (1995), sexual violence, and rape in particular, is considered the most under-reported violent crime.

It is estimated that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, with 99% of the offenders being male." ( both paragrpahs off Wiki/Rape)

I guess there can be a 'NO! to 1) They actually don't want to have sex 2) Not right now 3) are just unclear or don't have the confidence.

Charlatan

People who are into this, arrange things before hand and have things like safe words that mean Stop/No.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

dlish

sure, the definitions needs an update, but do judges even pay any attention to these achaic definitions? are they used by defence teams? But if i was a defence lawyer, and my client wanted to use this defence, id have a hard time keeping my anger in check.

I wonder how skewed these stats are when the real stats are taken into consideration in a new analysis...if those details are even taken.

it seems that tthe FBI needs to pull its finger out and start allocating some time and money into these social issues instead of chasing some phantom cavemen across the globe.

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chinese crested

Bit past their sale by date these rules. By 1936 in the movie Reefer Madness, they were already saying that girls who took this drug when offered would find their knickers round their ankles and end up on the game. You would have thought they would have updated laws then - but I suppose telling girls what would happen in an honest way would be enough.
In england an object being used still counts as rape.
Another deterrent to victims coming forward is the threat that their assailant may return if they speak out.
Sheepy - in certain circumstances, males are more at risk of male rape
'Statistics on offenders and victims[edit] United StatesMain article: John Jay Report
See also: Catholic sexual abuse scandal in the United States
The 2004 John Jay Report commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) was based on surveys completed by the Roman Catholic dioceses in the United States. The surveys filtered provided information from diocesan files on each priest accused of sexual abuse and on each of the priest's victims to the research team, in a format which did not disclose the names of the accused priests or the dioceses where they worked. The dioceses were encouraged to issue reports of their own based on the surveys that they had completed.

The 2004 John Jay Report[14] was based on a study of 10,667 allegations against 4,392 priests accused of engaging in sexual abuse of a minor between 1950 and 2002.

The report stated there were approximately 10,667 reported victims (younger than 18 years) of clergy sexual abuse during this period:

Around 81 percent of these victims were male.
22.6% were age 10 or younger, 51% were between the ages of 11 and 14, and 27% were between the ages to 15 to 17 years.[15][16][17]
A substantial number (almost 2000) of very young children were victimized by priests during this time period.
9,281 victim surveys had information about an investigation. In 6,696 (72%) cases, an investigation of the allegation was carried out. Of these, 4,570 (80%) were substantiated; 1,028 (18%) were unsubstantiated; 83 (1.5%) were found to be false. In 56 cases, priests were reported to deny the allegations.
More than 10 percent of these allegations were characterized as not substantiated. (This does not mean that the allegation was false; it means only that the diocese or order could not determine whether the alleged abuse actually took place.)
For approximately 20 percent of the allegations, the priest was deceased or inactive at the time of the receipt of the allegation and typically no investigation was conducted in these circumstances.
In 38.4% of allegations, the abuse is alleged to have occurred within a single year, in 21.8% the alleged abuse lasted more than a year but less than 2 years, in 28% between 2 and 4 years, in 10.2% between 5 and 9 years and, in under 1%, 10 or more years.
The 4,392 priests who were accused amount to approximately 4% of the 109,694 priests in active ministry during that time. Of these 4,392, approximately:

56 percent had one reported allegation against them; 27 percent had two or three allegations against them; nearly 14 percent had four to nine allegations against them; 3 percent (149 priests) had 10 or more allegations against them. These 149 priests were responsible for almost 3,000 victims, or 27 percent of the allegations.[15]
The allegations were substantiated for 1,872 priests and unsubstantiated for 824 priests. They were thought to be credible for 1,671 priests and not credible for 345 priests. 298 priests and deacons who had been completely exonerated are not included in the study.
50 percent were 35 years of age or younger at the time of the first instance of alleged abuse.[15]
Almost 70 percent were ordained before 1970.[15]
Fewer than 7 percent were reported to have themselves been victims of physical, sexual or emotional abuse as children. Although 19 percent had alcohol or substance abuse problems, only 9 percent were reported to have been using drugs or alcohol during the instances of abuse.[15]
Many of the reported acts of sexual abuse involved fondling or unspecified abuse. There was also a large number of allegations of forced acts of oral sex and intercourse. Detailed information on the nature of the abuse was not reported for 26.6% of the reported allegations. 27.3% of the allegations involved the cleric performing oral sex on the victim. 25.1% of the allegations involved penile penetration or attempted penetration.

Although there were reported acts of sexual abuse of minors in every year, the incidence of reported abuse increased by several orders of magnitude in the 1960s and 1970s. There was, for example, a more than sixfold increase in the number of reported acts of abuse of males aged 11 to 17 between the 1950s and the 1970s. After peaking in the 1970s, the number of incidents decreased through the 1980s and 1990s even more sharply than the incidence rate had increased in the 1960s and 1970s.'

Ultrabum

A recent news report I Scotland suggested that only one percent of reported rapes are prosecuted. In Scotland obviously.

I have to say I don't even know what this even means. Does it mean the police and procurator fiscal(our general attorney) don't proceed with court cases when they should? Does it mean 99% of reported rapes are false allegations. I'm baffled.

On the subject of whether or not a girl has been raped or not because she agreed but later regretted it. I'd say no it's obviously not rape. A bad decision? Maybe.

I young man in my local area had a bust up with his girlfriend by all accounts only a verbal argument. They layer had angry make up sex. The thought of rape never crossed her mind. But later after a conversation with a friend where the friend suggested it was rape did she then approach the police. He was eventually sentenced to prison.

I am all for punishing rapists bit more needs to be done in regards to false allegations. In that regards all governments and lawmakers really need to do more work in the classifications of rape.

mixedmedia

I would define forcible rape as any sexual act forced on a person either physically or by coercion that involves oral, anal or vaginal penetration. Coercion being defined broadly for this exercise as compelling sexual activity through the use of threats to safety of self and/or family, employment, education, housing and financial security.

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

mixedmedia

This is the kind of thinking that gets a lot of men into trouble.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

chinese crested

Ultra - the police will take a statement from a victim and collect any evidence - nail scrapings and clippings, vaginal swabs, sometimes photos, plucking of pubic and head hair samples. If they think they have enough to potentialy go on to make a case, they will, supposing he is known, bring in the accused and take similar samples from him, and his statement. In England, and I dont see why this would be different in Scotland, it is up to the CPS to decide if they have enough to proceed with a prosecution. Whilst they are deciding what to do, there may well be a bail hearing, at which the victim will meet their first experience of examination by the legal representative of the accused. His solicitor will want to argue that its so highly unlikely he did this, he should be given the benefit of bail. Whilst the process is at its early stages, the victim may well be under pressure from friends or family of the attacker, their own reputation blackened as others put family loyalty before all else, so the victims may not even make it this far so case will be closed.
Scariest thing about sex attackers - they look like everyone else. No black hat and cape and twirling mustache - just ordinary looking people.

When you remember that not so long ago, it was not considered rape if it was husband forcing wife as she was his chattel and he could do with her what he liked.

Ultrabum

Thing is, it is different in Scotland. As a separate country,although within the Union, it has it's own laws. I think you're probably right about the procedures though. They will be largely similar. That laws themselves and the laws governing how the police do their jobs is different.

As has been discussed earlier about definitions of and the fact that rapists aren't moustache twirling baddies, that wait in parks at night and drag girls into bushes. All people accused if rape get demonised as though they are the brutal kind and that's before they are proven guilty.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I think a pervert dragging people onto bushes is committing rape. That's what rape is. the other crimes ought to be given a different label. As cruel and brutal as they are, on a sliding scale I might add, aren't the same.

I think when an individual uses violence or drugs or any other circumstance where the others consent is ignored, sublimates or other wise circumvented is rape.

But when woman consents and regrets it later is clearly not rape. She consented and then changed her mind after the fact. it's s totally different ball game.

I'm not even sure about cases of employers using the threat of losing the job. Mind you we are dealing with different administrations. I don't know if that is regarded as rape in the UK. It is treated as a serious crime though I'll make that clear.

I just think the further from the 1900s idea of rape we go the further into nebulous uncertain territory we go. Not that we shouldn't. But care is required if proper justice is the goal.

chinese crested

I worked in an enviroment with serious sex offenders Ultra, and there was a mix from one who would drag women off the streets and into his car - not just the one like, to the other end with a guy who thought clibing through a kids bedroom window and - doing things bad enough for a 15yr stretch - was akin to being santa in some one, delivering a gift. I doubt either will ever be of any different longings than those they obviously have.
A woman or man waking up after a drunken night with someone they wish they hadnt slept with - I call that stupidity, not rape. Spiked drinks of course are different matter, they go in with threats of death or violence against their target or say the targets children.
I dont know about Scotland, but here Rape Crisis Line ladies go into the police training colleges etc to give seminars in the hope that these officers will remember what they are taught when they need it, and hopefully cause no further trauma to the victim than they can not avoid inflicting. I think the judicial system has a lot wrong with it - poor Milly Dowler, attacked in death as she had been in life - that was wrong, so very very wrong.

Poetry

I don't blame the UCR. It's a humanities study-- flawed to the end.

I just get annoyed with how many times I've had people reference it to me when talking about rape as if it's accurate to reality. You know that it has major flaws, but so many other people don't and get into huge debates with the UCR being their primary source of support without ever actually looking at the design of the study itself.

I really wish people would do their homework before tossing out statistics. It's just as important to read how the study was conducted, along with its definition of terms, as its conclusions (if not more so).

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"You know what? Fuck the moon! He controls our water and our women. I've had enough!"

Plan9

Venting is great, but what's your alternative?

Ms. Cleo and the Psychic Friends Network?

Justice statistics are As Good As It Gets (TM).

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Strange Famous

It is correct in my opinion that rape is defined separately from other sexual assaults.

I do not say this to demean or lessen the impact of being a victim of a different measure of sexual assault - but I would address this in two parts:

1,
To force an individual to engage in oral sex would in my opinion be a serious sexual assault

To force an individual to engage in anal sex would surely be covered by the offence of sodomy, or again a sexual assault.

Anal "sex" and oral "sex" are sexual acts, but do not constitute sexual intercourse.

These offences can be treated, rightly, as just as serious as rape, and the offenders sentenced in the same way, but they are different offences.

_

2, To use date rape drugs, intimidation, blackmail, or any other such means to me implies the use of force against an unwilling participant in exactly the same legal sense as brute force. I see no way that the definition posted above could be interprated by a court in today's climate to NOT prohibit drugging a person and raping them.

_

I personally find the attitude of the author of the original piece quite offensive. I do not see any requirment to change the terms of the definition under law (which in any case is used for reporting/classification of crime and not the prosecution of crime and protection of citizens)

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Lindy

That is why the charges come down as 'first degree sexual assault' or 'third degree sexual assault.' First degree probably involves forcible penetration. Third degree may just be someone playing 'grab ass or breast' in a bar. Third degree is assault, but not rape, by most peoples definition.

A person who is intoxicated, mentally incompetent, under age, etc., cannot legally give consent.

Well, yes, sometimes this is just 'buyer's remorse,' BUT, if a woman gives consent to, say, oral sex, and ends up being forced into anal, then that certainly IS rape.

And thanks to Plan9 for his useful discussion of both the Uniform Crime Report and the National Crime Victimization Survey.

Lindy

Poetry

My alternative to this study? I don't have one. I while I do have the degree, I don't have the funding and I don't have the interest in devoting that much of my life to a study.

However, I will take the time to inform people as to the failings of the study they quote whether or not I agree with the study's conclusion. No humanities study is going to be done 100% accurately with 100% consensus on the definitions used (and I'm not going to get into the population being surveyed).

Yes, we can quote statistics to back up our own opinions but, personally, I believe in actually discussing a point as opposed to trying to win an argument. If the study I am going to quote has flaws, I'm going to bring up those flaws in order to have them as part of the discussion and to, hopefully, increase my knowledge base. If I am truly open to other opinions and the failings of my own, then I can truly grow. If I am not, then I stagnate in my own opinions and trap myself in shallow ponds.

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"You know what? Fuck the moon! He controls our water and our women. I've had enough!"

KirStang

Split it in to categories.

Sexual Battery in degrees. Some element of non-consent. Some element of force, including trickery or battery (i.e. causing someone to touch an offensive liquid, such as roofies, and just plain force). First degree includes penetration of any orifice with any object. Aggravated involves a weapon and or severe physical trauma. Second degree probably involves touching or rubbing the organ against the other person. All other touching i.e. touching another's breasts would fall under the normal definition of Battery.

No requirement for man or woman.

You'll also run in to issues of consent, of some prior sexual conduct, of he said she said, and issues of evidence. Most states have statutory presumptions to aid the victim, such as asking for a contraceptive does not equate to consent, and past sexual history is prohibited from evidence, unless it is used to show prior consensual sex, a habit of participating in risky sex, etc. Finally, you will also have to make sure that this isn't some trumped up charge to get back at a boyfriend or to avoid looking bad.

It's a hard crime to prosecute, and contains much social stigma.

Re: UCR--it's following a definition of rape that is very old, but took hundreds of years of case law to fashion. You may easily point out the UCR's weaknesses, but it's one of the most reliable and comprehensive sets of data in the United States. There are others, of course, like the National Crime Victimization Survey (National Crime Victimization Survey Resource Guide), but IIRC, this involves calling up households and asking them to self-report. Eitherway, you're going to have criticisms of the data-set when obtaining such a broad swath of information.

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ply

Not always. I've been there with a gal that loved to fight until she was forced. She always came in multiples.

This is the same post I just made on another thread a minute ago. LOL

zenda

Hi Poetry, I've just got back from holiday and have been on a mission of catch-up lurk. Heck - lot's been happening. I am keen to contribute to your other thread, and thank you for this opportunity to clear my palette and begin to clarify my sense of 'on topic' for when I join your other one, in the next couple of days.


Hi Ply

I'd like to confirm that you are not only intending something like 'Orgasms alone may constitute justification after the fact, as in 'Orgasms = enjoyment, therefore you enjoyed it, therefore it was OK for me to impose'. I believe and hope that you and she have got some way of giving each other messages of sensitivity to each's needs and acceptance of each's desires, and that she could and would confirm this if asked by a respectful third party.


Safe words are explicit conscious contracts to bypass unsafe presumption of others' reluctance or consent; to bypass the 'I know better what you really want than you do '. However, parties who know each other very well can develop 'I really mean this' signals and, hopefully, a proven history of correctly reading and acting on them when presented. I am guessing this to be the case between Ply and his lady, and in general, this is an organic development of 'safe signals' - 'double checking' which applies also outside the domain of sexual activity, and, since people vary, requires a sensible refresh rate. Wakefulness is paramount in order to surf the crest of the wave, one side of which lies too much, and the other, not enough;

I share this view, and maintain that the spirit as well as the letter of this principle are a high priority for all parties to learn.

For me, part of the spirit made 'letter' is: No means no (even if moments earlier it was a yes) and an UNcertain Yes is incongruent consent and subject to clarification before being acted on.

Could sound a bit boring, I mean, sometimes part of the thrill can be going over the edge and wondering "Feck ... will I ever return from this trip", as can be the act of surprising each other [cf Clouseau and Cato]. Rest easy on that score: all the safety lines, both physical and communicational in the world cannot take away the risk of danger or inappropriateness. However, in mountaineering, typically it is the climbers who check their and each others kit, health, ropes and safety lines who succeed in reaching the craziest peaks and summits, succeed via the sickest [modern meaning] routes, and succeed more than once. They build trust more solid than the rock they climb, and minimise the likelihood of need for their or others' resentment or remorse for consequential damage or mind-changing which might occur.

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ZENDA

loquitur

"Rape" has a legal defintion, fixed by statute in all 50 states. Here in NY, for example, the definition of rape -- what you need to do in order to be convicted -- is:

S 130.35 Rape in the first degree.
A person is guilty of rape in the first degree when he or she engages
in sexual intercourse with another person:
1. By forcible compulsion; or
2. Who is incapable of consent by reason of being physically helpless;
or
3. Who is less than eleven years old; or
4. Who is less than thirteen years old and the actor is eighteen years
old or more.

Section 130.00.8. "Forcible compulsion" means to compel by either:
a. use of physical force; or
b. a threat, express or implied, which places a person in fear of
immediate death or physical injury to himself, herself or another
person, or in fear that he, she or another person will immediately be
kidnapped.

I would guess most states have similar definitions.

That's not the same thing as "rape" as the word is used colloquially or academically. Entire dissertations have been constructed about what is and isn't or should and shouldn't be viewed as rape, some of which is so abstract as to be gibberish. And of course private institutions, such as universities, can impose their own definitions as well.

I have a very simple rule of conduct in these matters: behave like a civilized and considerate human being, and you won't have any problems. And if you do, you're not the one with the problem.

KirStang

I bet the definition of 'sexual intercourse' has been litigated in NY?

If you were a legislator, how would you draw up the scheme proscribing sexual crimes?

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Shadowex3

Speaking as someone doing an undergrad thesis on sex offense laws I'm actually really glad I found this out now, it's a pretty serious issue that I should address. You would think in 20-fucking-11 we would have a more "sane" definition of rape, but then again I live in the state with laws against alligator-walking on sundays.

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KirStang

Actually, Florida has some pretty kickass laws. Homestead exemptions that aren't limited. Limitation on tort for emergency personnel. No emission tests. No registration of firearms. It's nice.

Florida Rape Statute:

I suppose all other acts would be covered under Battery. The (a) intent to (b)cause (c) offensive touching on another.

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Shadowex3

It seems nice on the surface but we've got our own Fark tag for a reason, it wasn't until 2007 that we finally passed some Romeo and Juliet laws to stop all the cases of kids getting put on the sex offender registry for basically no reason at all.

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