jnthnlllshprd

This is long so I'm trying to keep it understandable and easy to read.

This woman I work with is driving me wild. We've been working together since January, and have gotten along extremely well since February. Up until now, I only thought of her as a really good friend, never looked at her as anything more. She's got a good heart, a good mind, and an amazing body. She's flirted with me much longer than I've flirted with her, i.e. sitting on my face while I'm asleep, grabbing my penis, sitting in my lap, dry-humping, dancing, etc.. which went on to asking me to give her children if she's still not a mother by age 30, and accepting my 'joke' marriage proposal by offering to pay the half of the 60 dollar marriage license fee.

We talk a lot, but rarely about important things. Sometimes we connect on a deeper level, but usually we just have this tendancy to joke around with each other in a way that makes us look like a couple, including casual kisses on the mouth and saying I love you, without ever acknowledging what it might actually mean (all in addition to the vulgar sexual displays in public). To me, this behavior was just meant look like something more than it really was, and we only did it because we were comfortable with each other enough to enjoy it publically. I always assumed she felt the same way.

[She doesn't do this with other people, not that I've seen. Our co-workers often assume that she and I are lovers, and that it's the worst kept secret in the world.]

Anyway, it got weird when we were out partying the other night. She asked me to be her 'date' to a party at a dance club uptown. We had our usual good time, laughing and having fun. Everybody we work with was there. We threw down a few shots of Bacardi 151. She makes a comment like "I want you to FUCK me" This is not an unusual thing either of us to say, even when we're sober. Like I said, it's always been an extremely flirty friendship.

Anyway, when I got home I called to let her know I'd made it without getting arrested or killed, like I'd promised. I jokingly said the only thing that wasn't okay was the fact that I didn't bone her. She said "I know, right? We should be passed that! We should be a couple by now!" I said, sarcastically, "Oh, yeah, but that would just be weird, seeing as how we work together, we couldn't do THAT of course..." and she said with, a disturbing whine in her voice, "NOW YOU KNOW HOW I FEEL!" and kinda choked.

~What? I said. What do you mean by that?
~What? Nothing, I didn't say anything.
~Yeah, you did. Tell me, what's wrong? I asked.
~Nothing! Nothing's wrong! I didn't say that. (her)
~No really, what do you mean by that? (me)
~Look, I'll explain it tomorrow. Call me and I'll tell you everything. (her)
~Okay, I WILL call, and I WILL ask why you said that. (me)
~Kay bye.(her)
~Bye.

So I called the next morning. We joked for a moment before I brought it up. Of course, she said she didn't remember having any conversation. As drunk as I was that night, I remembered that conversation like it'd just happened, so she might have have remembered it as well. The tone in her voice wasn't very convincing.

[Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't just fabricate feelings when they're drunk--they share them.]

So, I told her what she said, assuming maybe she did indeed forget, and she seemed pretty bothered by what I'd told her. I told her I knew she was drinking that night and I didn't want to make myself seem like an arrogant ass now for taking last night's conversation seriously, but I also didn't want to hurt her feelings if she actually DID desire a relationship with me. I just wanted to know what she wants.

Her response was You just don't want to lie to me. I told her I wouldn't lie if she didn't. Her response was I am attracted to you, but nothing can become of it. I didn't know how to respond to that. What does that mean? Why not? She didn't answer, so I told her I'd be more than happy to give myself to her emotionally, if that's what she wanted, and if not, then I'm fine with that as well. I told her I just wanted to know how she felt first. I don't know, she said. Then it was goodbye/see ya.

That was three days ago. She did seem a little akward when she came back to work this evening. I walked inside to clock in and I was laughing about something, and she got mad, apparently just because I was laughing. Shortly afterwards things were normal again, back to the same old sexual innuendo that drives our friendship. However, today was a bit strange. It's like there's this odd emotional exchange between us when we look at each other and don't speak. I can't tell if it's humility, pity, longing.. it's just new.

I do know we both have major trust issues. If I felt some way about her, I wouldn't admit it, and obviously she's the same way. At the same time, I believe that if she didn't have feelings for me and I had feelings for her, she cares too much about me to say no, and visa versa. It has nothing to do with ruining a good friendship, it's more about one of us finding the courage to step forward and confess a genuine desire to be mates, and we're both cowards. It's like a strong, mutual shyness. We never really share our pasts with each other in detail.

[I'm not the type to put my issues out there for people to discuss or on which to base my behavior, and I know she's not the same. I know she must've seen her fiar share of problems and the fact that she's not willing to discuss her past makes it more believable. I know she didn't have a father, she knows I didn't know my parents. I know she has lost several close friends to freak accidents, and she knows I did a shortened tour as a USMC infantryman in Fallujah that didn't go well for myself and my comrades. We just don't share the negative emotions very often because our friendship is like pure carelessness and joy.]

My problem is I can't be sure how she feels because she's so closed-off, much like myself. I know I'm suddenly feeling the urge to be her's, and to make her mine. So put yourself in my shoes, and ask yourself, do I act like nothing's there and risk depriving her of some desire that I've recently caught hint of, or do I risk opening some old wound in her heart that I'm not aware of? I could wait, but I don't want to risk breaking her heart, assuming she doesn't want to wait.

["What we have here is a failure to communicate."]

The real question is: Do you think I was being an idiot before, when I assumed this was all just in good fun, or am I being an idiot now for assuming it could be more than just a friendship? Please advise. I know people on the internet don't worry about hurting feelings.

The_Jazz

I assume everyone on the internet is an idiot - including me.

But you're not so special as to stand out from the crowd. That's a compliment, by the way.

Here's my best advice: call her at home after work one night. Ask her out on a date. Do whatever it is when you want to make a date special and do that. Show up with flowers. Make it perfectly clear to her that you intend to "woo" her. It seems to me that she quite obviously wants to be with you - at least from what you've written. Conciously or unconciously, you think the same thing. This is probably best done sooner rather than later before this new "thing" develops into anything negative.

In other words, stop being a shy shrinking violet around someone who obviously wants to jump your bones.

** By the way, I hope you didn't drive yourself home that night. It's one thing to be an average, every-day internet moron. Drunk drivers piss me off. **

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Seaver

Alcohol only makes you do stuff you want to do, it makes her reveal her blatant obvious attraction to you. If you like her... take her to dinner where she doesn't have to get drunk for you to kiss her.

Me? I'd run the hell away because she sounds baby crazy... but that's just me.

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Jinn

I'm with Seaver on this one. *That* aside, Jazz has it right - she wants to be woo'd, not used. Make her feel special if you want this to be anything more than an irritating flirt.

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The_Jazz

I know where you're coming from guys, but I just don't get baby crazy on this one. It just seems like part of the pattern of an excuse to jump his bones than actually wanting a kid. If she *was* baby crazy (IMO), she'd have already jumped him and/or would be plotting to get pregnant.

Baby crazy is a whole special kind of crazy in my book, and usually doesn't involve this kind of flirting.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Martian

I have to register my dissent with Jazz's first post. If she's "...sitting on my while I'm asleep, grabbing my penis, sitting in my lap, dry-humping..." and you still can't figure out that she wants to bang you, you're a very special kind of idiot indeed.

Usually when girls start grabbing the junk it's green-means-go.

Stop overthinking this. Do whatever it is you do to express interest in a female. Take her to dinner, buy her a gift, display your mating plumage, I dunno.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

The_Jazz

Martian, how is that any different than my first post?

Looks like you and I are on the same page here.

Or is this just your usual knee-jerk reaction to disagree with everything I say just on the general principle that if I said it, it must be wrong?

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Martian

I was dissenting with your assertion that he's not a stand-out idiot. But this also works.

Asshole.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Slims

If you want her, then pursue her.

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"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

fresnelly

I'm also advising you to be forwad, clear and ask her out.

But then I'm doing it for selfish reason. I wanna know how it turns out so please, please let us know what happens after you ask her out.

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Wes Mantooth

"i.e. sitting on my face while I'm asleep, grabbing my penis, sitting in my lap, dry-humping, dancing"

Friends just don't do this stuff, dancing maybe...but if a girl is grabbing your cock and dry humping you its usually a pretty big indication of her feelings about the relationship. It sounds like she really wants you to make the first move, which makes sense because it sounds like she's laying it all on the line trying to fish for clues that you might be interested. From reading your post the signs aren't going to get any more straight forward, if you want her too go for it. If she isn't interested then shes the biggest tease on the face of earth.

Whats the worst thing that could happen?

"Sorry I mistook your grabbing my crotch and grinding on my face as a romantic gesture, I'll be more careful next time."

__________________

eribrav

Can you explain the whole face-sitting at work thing?
Because I work, and I've had women sit on my face, and I don't see how the two happen at the same time and place.

jnthnlllshprd

We work in a strip club. She's a bartender, I'm with security. It's a totally different work environment. So yeah, if I interpreted her physical gestures as a sign of genuine lust, I could be wrong, and I could look stupid for it. It's not common for us to go as far as we do, but it's definitely not shocking. Maybe just taking it as far as we do is what makes it so amusing, and it really doesn't mean anything.

Baby crazy seems like a probable cause for all of this. She definitely wants kids, she talks about it a lot, and seeing as how I'm a decent-looking white guy, and she wants "light-skinned, blue-eyed, well-built young boys" for children, I'm starting to feel like that's all that this is about. Reminds me of Maud in The Big Lebowski, when she had sex with The Dude just for the sake of raising a child on her own.

Tonight she was just her quirky self, as usual. Doesn't respond to emotional feedback at all. When I'm obviously in a bad mood, she acts like she doesn't notice. I tried to talk about it but she was always quick to laughter, like I was still kidding. I'm feeling a little heartbroken, but it's my own fault. I guess we kid too much for her to take me seriously, and that's what I've been doing for the last 9 months. My biggest mistake was even briefly assuming that she was serious at all. That whole 9 months really was just a big gag between the two of us. I suppose I simply misunderstood what was said on the phone Sunday night.

I'm gonna try to talk to some of her ex-boyfriends, they come in a lot and we get along pretty well.

Damn this sucks. Thanks for the feedback.

Cimarron29414

Okay, I'll say it: You're an idiot.

You are having a relationship with this girl, only without the sex. You just broke up with this girl without having ever had sex with her. You had a "work" relationship and all the baggage of the work gossip without actually having sex with her.

You're an idiot. If you are going to go through all this trouble, you might as well actually have a relationship! Ask her out on a date and go for it - ya' pussy!

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fresnelly

I read your post last night and joked to myself "Well maybe he works in a strip club. ha ha."

Well waddayaknow!

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Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

jnthnlllshprd

Okay, I'm not a pussy. That's where you're absolutely wrong. My job and my career history demonstrate that. I've never had any trouble with fucking women or showing my feelings for a woman, she is just a special case in my life.

Secondly, we go on dates all the time. We party, we go to bars. It's in my original post, I don't know what your idea of a date is but it's probably pretty lame.

Finally, a status update: Instead of sending her flowers or something that I'm pretty sure would just embarass her, I sent her a picture of my dick. She sent me 3 pictures of her body. Then we critiqued each other at work, laughed all night. Had a great night. We'll see where it goes tomorrow. We still haven't really crossed into the 'emotional' threshold, but I'll let you know where it goes. Right now it's just a very open friendship.

Punk.of.Ages

Seems to me she's just a flirty chick, dude...

Contrary to (evidently) popular belief, not every girl who grabs your dick actually wants it inside of her. I have had many female friends who were very open about flirting, dick-grabbing, and everything else you've described in your posts but never had sex with me. I won't lie; I did the same thing you're doing a couple times. You know what happens when you read too much into this shit? Emotions get involved and shit turns sour...

I'd wager she doesn't want an emotional deal with you. Perhaps she'd like to have sex with you, but, even at that, if you continue to read into it you're just going to push her away from that idea.

I don't know what your real goal is here, but I say stop analyzing, allow the friendship to revert to what it was, and go with the flow. I bet that's what she'd like you to do.

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Strange Famous

mate, grabbing someone's cock is a bit more than flirting!

_

Oh, and I had a situation while not like that exactly in terms of the interaction, that was similar - with someone who was a work colleague. If you like her I would advise asking her out. It sounds like she is doing everything possible to send you the message that she wants you to. All the conversations youve listed seem like both hinting pretty heavily at something without coming out and saying it.

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

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jnthnlllshprd

thanks, i agree

MSD

You act like a couple, you've both admitted you want to be a couple, but neither of you can bring yourself to admit it while sober. What a perfect pair.

jnthnlllshprd

welp, even though I decided to go with the flow after all, I couldn't help but confront her about past comments. I suprised her in the middle of a conversation by saying "Which reminds me, what the hell did you mean by 'nothing can come from our attraction to each other'?"

She hung her head, smiled, and said "You're over-analyzing. Let me play that role." I said "I believe you're mistaken, I'm supposed to over-analyze shit. I can show you a webpage where I've been debating with people exactly how to approach our situation."

She laughed again and said "Okay, well.. I just think it's something that needs to just 'happen' on it's own, ya know? I'm still with him right now.. (her boyfriend of 2 years whom she rarely speaks of). Oh damn, look at that fat bitch, we'll hire anybody these days.."

"Stop changing the subject," I said.
"No," she said. "Let's look at the skrippas!"
"Seriously," I said, ignoring her. "Things are great like they are now."
"True," she said, nodding and blank-faced.
me: "I just want to know you want this to be more, because as I said before when you let your hints at deeper feelings slip over the phone, I felt kinda guilty, as though I was holding out on you. If I am, you gotta tell me straight up, because we're only just now showing signs of frustration with each other."
"See this?" she said. "I'm blushing. I don't know what to say."
"I just want you to know I'm not gonna push anything on you, because I don't know if you feel like you'd be happier with having a friendship that's as open as this, or if you're more interested in calling it a day and getting straight to the point. You can pretend I'm not talking about this right now, but I know I'm gonna feel better about it now, regardless of your response."

She didn't answer, so I poked her crotch and walked away.

The rest of the day was like every other, just more flirtatious nonsense. Unless we make plans for Sunday or Monday, I won't see her again til Wendsday. I'm counting on avoiding her until then, just to give her some time to think about what I said.

jnthnlllshprd

after much thinking and much time alone, the only reasonable conclusion I can draw is this: Being that it's a strip club and the rules on sexual harassment are generally disregarded, I believe she uses me as a way to prevent other men (employees and customers) from getting on her nerves by behaving like that. She knows I don't push myself on anyone, and up until now I've served my purpose because I hadn't yet acknowledged the possibility of genuine feelings between the two of us. To me, this is pretty logical and I don't feel confused anymore. I can roll with that, if she still wants to. If she wants to find someone else, that's just as good, because that means I don't have to act any specific way when other women are around us.

thanks for the comments and replies, folks. I don't think I'd have figured it out otherwise.

monkeysugar

Maybe that's got something to do with her reluctance/hangups on having a sober conversation about her feelings toward you? Just doin' a little brainstorming, thinking outside of the box...

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I've got the love of my life and a job that I enjoy most of the time. Life is good.

MSD

If things are back to normal then nothing lost, nothing gained, right? Let whatever happens, happen. If you are both really attracted to each other, you're probably going to end up together sooner or later.

jnthnlllshprd

you're probably right. If we are attracted to each other, it might happen later down the road, and if not, at least it's been a good time. The problem is if we keep acting as we do, and she DOES happen to want more out of our relationship, she's going to assume that I don't want anything more, when I really do, so something has to change or I'm gonna look back on this and ask myself if we were supposed to be together.

To me, the most logical explanations are a.) She likes me but she's reluctant for several reasons, b.) She doesn't have feelings for me, instead she uses me to keep other guys at work off of her, or c.) She simply enjoys the friendship we have and doesn't want anything else. I'm leaning towards option B, but the only way to find out for sure is to appear somewhat distanced until something shifts in her behavior. I can't make it apparent that I'm 'distancing' myself because that will be like a slap in the face. Instead, I'm just gonna act as though she's starting to lose my attention. I want her to realize I'm not so interested in playing this game anymore, without seeming as though I want her to notice that.

Two things can happen if I do this: 1.) If it's that she likes me but is reluctant, or if she's just my friend, she'll give me some kind of sign, if not completely reveal how she feels, because my lack of interest is making her self-conscience; or 2.) If I'm just a way to divert the grabby hands of other male co-workers, she'll look for some other toy to play with because I won't be quite so effective. Either way, I'll finally have an answer.

Basically, if I act a little more passive when she's getting all playful with me, I think she'll start to realize that something's changing, and regardless of her motives for sticking so close to me, her response to my slightly less enthusiastic behavior will reflect her feelings for me (or lack thereof). Put pressure on her without seeming as though I intend to put pressure on her.

At this point, I'd rather lose her as a friend than ignore the possibility of making this into something more. The idea of actually 'being' with this girl is worth quite a lot to me.

MSD

You obviously have a connection with her that goes deeper than friendship. You've admitted it while sober, she hasn't. Either you both admit it and something happens, or you're on different levels of maturity and nothing comes of it. I hope for the sake of both of you that you get together like you both want to, worst case it's just long enough that you can both realize that what you have now is ideal. Don't get tunnel vision and blind yourself to other romantic opportunities, but also don't resign yourself to nothing happening with her.

jnthnlllshprd

Thank you for that.

Okay, so here's the latest: I flipped my lid Friday night at work (not at her, but at my security team), and was so disappointed in myself for doing so that I didn't say a word to her or anyone else on Saturday. When she went home that night, I started to feel bad for ignoring her, so I sent her a message apologizing. I did not receive a response. So I spent some time thinking about her, and I think I realized something about her that makes sense of it all.

First, I took a few factors into consideration. The nails, the hair weaves, the cheap jewelry.. her great desire to be a stay-at-home mom with a husband who takes care of the family.. her fascination with the idea of children, marriage, homemaking.. her blatant male trust issues.. her history of relationships with older, somewhat dull and derogative, financially well-off 'gentlemen'.. her tendancy to angrily reject courting gestures from men who don't fit that description..

I put all of that together in my mind for a second and remembered something she told me a long time ago: she never had a father. Never had a dad, stepdad, uncle, older brother.. no male role model in her life whatsoever. Then it hit me: she must be looking for a man to fill that hole in her life. A man who will take care of her, show her 'the way', etc.. essentially assume the role of the father she never had. I think she subconsciously wants a male role model in her life, and that's what her ideal lover would represent.

My aunt, for example, never knew her father, and eventually married an engineer 20 years older than her, had a family, and has been living happily for 8 years, even though he acts like a father towards her and generally undermines her like an authoritarian grandpa. One day she opened up to me about why she married this guy, and why she's happy with him. I remembered what she'd said, and then I did some research on father-daughter relationships, which went into detail about women who grow up without father figures. Of course, I'm not saying that this is true of all women who grow up without father figures, but my aunt has confessed it about herself, and it certainly seems to be the case with this girl at work.

I really think that's what I'm dealing with. I think she continues to behave this way around me because I never took it seriously, and never showed any interest in taking it further, so calling me her future husband, her baby-daddy, (etc) gives her a small outlet in which to excercise her longing for a husband. That said, she would never settle for me because I'm not the type of male role model that I believe she is searching for, seeing as how I'm 4 years younger than her, I make less than she does, I have a pretty cheap lifestyle, and I'm pretty bad when it comes to comforting people, given that I admittedly have some pretty stupid issues myself. As a matter of fact, I'd probably be the worst father ever.

So, even though I'm not the type of guy she's looking for, she continues to use me as this outlet because I play along with her without taking it personally, which is pretty unusual for a man (although it has everything to do with my own trust issues, meaning I'm basically a woman when it comes to relationships).

[This guy she spends so much time with (the one that she was ignoring when we went out drinking together and this whole situation took that emotional turn) is very well-off financially, stands about a foot taller/wider than me, and seems pretty boring in general, but also seems to be quite good at giving her that emotional outlet that she needs. He takes her to places/events I can't afford, he backs her up financially or directionally when she needs help, constantly gives her personal advice, and behaves as this sort of calm figure that counteracts her animated personality. Despite that they've apparently never had sex or made anything 'official', I think this is exactly the type of man she is looking for, and will eventually settle on.]

This makes my situation much easier; I really have no choice but to be her friend, and it feels great, even if it is just out of sympathy. No more stress. I know I could be completely wrong about the whole thing right now, but I doubt it. It makes perfect sense. Now I'm just as happy to be her friend, and to continue this little role-playing game of our's while she finds the guy who's right for her. I'm not hurt at all, as there are a million fish in the sea (as they say) and I've got another one on the line as we speak. I don't feel 'used' or 'played', although I'm not sure why I don't. As for the conversation we had on the phone (where she seemed to be insinuating 'feelings' for me), I'm just gonna have to assume that I completely misunderstood, and forget about it for my own sake. I don't think I even had any real 'feelings' for her until we had that conversation, which means I must be pretty desperate for a new relationship right now.

All that said, she now has only my utmost respect and sympathy. I knew there was something really odd about her, and now that I think I've a pretty good idea of why she is the way she is, I don't see us as anything more than friends. I support her on her journey all the way, even if it means merely being her play-toy at work.

Didn't expect it to conclude like this, but hell, coulda been a lot worse. No harm done.

***And I damn sure won't ever say any of this to her. Hell hath no fury like a black woman scorned.