shesus

My latest trip to Victoria's Secret was quite disturbing. I think that her secret is that she is a closeted pedophile. Either that, or the store is now catering to pre-teens. I felt like a dirty, old man looking through the panty bins and left feeling slimy and ready for a shower.

First, you have the beauty pageants for kids where the moms (and to be fair sometimes dads) dress up their girls like grown streetwalkers in fancy dresses and hats and expensive shoes. Even on normal days, there are girls walking around in shirts with plunging necklines and high-heel shoes begging their parents to take them to American Girl Place. Now, VS is selling panties with rainbows and hearts all over them for grown women who rarely wear high heels or anything fancy, especially hats. It seems that the roles are reversed.

I'm wondering if these are symptoms of a bigger issue. Considering that the schoolgirl role-playing game is quite a popular one, it's an issue that has been around for quite awhile. There must be women who buy these types of underclothing and since they're sold at VS, it must be seen as sexy. Or maybe VS isn't in the sexy fashion game anymore.

Another thing that I have found disturbing is grown women using little girl voices thinking that it's cute or a turn-on. When I was visiting my step-daughter at college, I saw a sorority house with a big banner saying 'Every girl's dream house' in big pink sparkling letters and the windows had princess curtains. These are women for all intents and purposes living there.

Is anyone else finding little girls made to look like women and grown women acting like little girls somewhat disturbing? Or is it a sex game that I am just not a part of?

Give me a pair of thigh-highs, high heels, and a corset any day on a grown woman, please.

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cdwonderful

I have to agree. The little girl thing is almost child molester to me. Maybe I am just getting old.....

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MSD

The blurring of age lines is worrying one one level, but as I always say when people bring up ridiculous arguments like the claim that preferring a woman to shave completely makes you a pedophile, maturity is evidenced by a whole set of secondary sex characteristics. The little girl voice was addressed by Dr. Drew on Loveline years ago, and he established a pretty good correlation between it and childhood sexual abuse. The childish decorations are more of remembering the good days of being a kid, like college students returning to playing Pokemon and watching Teletubbies (although I suspect drugs are usually involved with the latter.) The market reacts to the willingness of parents to buy "sexy" clothes for their children, but I have to wonder to what extent the kids really understand it and to what degree they're innocently emulating adult trends.

I have more to say incubating in the back of my mind that I'll add later, but if I could explain this fully, I'd have a Ph.D in developmental psychology. It's not simple.

noodle

I have a friend whom I really do like immensely on so many levels. She's funny, sarcastic, hilarious, empathetic at times and the wife of my SO's very good friend. We get along most of the time pretty well. She actually is quite beautiful but the light pink lipstick and the short miniskirts are kind weird sometimes. What really makes things seem odd to me is pigtails on a 40 year old when you're all going out. It's a shame that she feels the need to dress herself more like a 20 year old when she looks 30 most of the time that she dresses normally. It's not cool and it's not attractive to my SO. We've talked about it a bit.
The little girl voice pisses me off on so many levels. Often it's so deliberate in trying to get one's way. It's manipulative and degrading both the to the female and should be embarrassing to a man that a woman would think that by acting like a child, she could get something out of him.
I'm starting to feel a bit old these days when I walk through lingerie sections of stores. I look at the fabric and how much of my boobs the bra will hold, not necessarily the amount of nipple that will show. I still think you can be sexy in a beautiful bra or pair of panties that doesn't have some snarky comment or Laura Ashley lace on it. Don't get me wrong, I do have both of those items (well, not little-girl lace, but some lacey stuff) and they're fun, but not what I would put on to turn on my man or to feel sexy. I think VS is trying too hard to cater to a certain population that likes to wear "PINK" on their asses. Which is fine, because they're still in business. They're just not for me. Or my SO, which works well.
I'd rather be a grown-up, without pink sparkly anything or so many labels... rather in what makes me feel sexy. Which is an "adult" feeling to me.

Did that even come close to addressing the OP? Sorry, shesus... I'm a little more ADD than usual today. 2oz of freshly roasted ethiopian yrgicheff (sp?) at three in the afternoon jacked me through the roof.




here's my little background disclaimer, though... I worked with sexually abused kids for about three years, so the whole completely shaved thing and teen role-playing take me back there, not somewhere fun.

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mixedmedia

I blame Bratz dolls. Shit truly does roll up hill.

And I say that with tongue only partly in cheek. Today there is an image of girlish sexuality that is marketed to both children and adult women. And in my mind, it can be traced back to late '90s pop culture - The Spice Girls (Baby Spice?), Brittany Spears, Bratz dolls, some Japanese comics, etc. But it wouldn't be so popular if women weren't wearing it and buying it for their daughters.

As for women buying into this culture, I don't see the harm as it is no more than an eyesore and an annoyance for those of us who dislike it. But the early sexualization of young girls is more questionable. And not only is it the marketing of sexuality to young girls, but the marketing of a female ideal to them that is immature, materialistic, childish and vain. I might even take more exception with the latter than the former, although I think both are inappropriate and disappointing.

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snowy

If you haven't seen the episode of South Park called "The Ring", you ought to! It had some interesting things to say about how we sell sex to preteen girls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ring_(South_Park)

Girls these days face a lot of overt and subtle cultural messages about sex and what it means to be sexy, as well as what it means to be feminine. There's a reason why VS's line for "teens" (yeah right) is called Pink; gender traits are more emphasized in marketing for teens, and femininity in marketing is strongly associated with youth. The blatant trend toward marketing for preteens is disturbing. Kids are growing up way too fast, and some parents don't seem to have a problem with the oversexualization of their teenagers.

Ugh.

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JumpinJesus

Thank you for posting this where the men can respond as well.

The last time I walked into VS's self-described "Sexiest Store on Earth" I was creeped out by the seeming marketing of things that appeal to the little girl mentality.

There does seem to be a delayed emotional movement into adulthood for women (and men, too) that I think has a tie-in to the helicopter parents you brought up in your bubble thread.

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little_tippler

I find it disturbing that little girls want to look like grown women, especially as the age where they want that seems to be decreasing. I do agree that the way young girls are being sexualized is creepy. I worry about if I ever have daughters.

Even so, I will go to VS and find things I like, despite the 'little girl stuff'. I have to say that when it comes to clothes to wear to bed I quite like things with small scale patterns, as long as they aren't too garish or silly. I think they are fun. I don't think that affects my maturity levels.

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Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
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Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

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shesus

For fun, I don't see a problem. However, when it is bought in an attempt to be sexy it is creepy. And since VS touts to be the sexiest store on Earth, it bugs me.

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jimmy1s269

the only type of girl-ish outfit i really want to see my wife in is a schoolgirl type short skirt and button top thing. and i think every guy has that fantasy. beyond that, she is a grown woman and i very much enjoy that. though i would like her to shave, but she gets really bad razor burn, so its a rare occurance, but yeah, there is so much of a difference between a grown woman shaved and a kid. not even that same thing.

as far as VS clothes. I have every intention of keeping my baby girl away from that crap. granted, theres at least 10 years before she will even be able to shop there, but i tell ya, if the wife approves it, she will be banned from that store without her mom there to supervise. and yeah, she will hate it, and her friends will laugh at her, but thats life.

Starkizzer

This is one of many reasons I shop at Frederick's of Hollywood instead. They have more styles in larger sizes and I feel like I can but "adult" lingerie in there. Although when I was in there today they did have some very pirate looking panties.

Oh and on the note of lil girls being dressed innapropriatly...there is a show on TLC, Toddlers and Tiaras...yea that show is...interesting to say the least. But the way some of the little girls act on there shocks the hell out of me.

My friend calls the young girls who walk around dressed more provocatively than they should, prostitots.

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Daniel_

Word of the week!

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Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
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Strange Famous

certainly child beauty pagaents should be illegal. There is no sense in which they are not warped.

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eribrav

I find that show to be deeply disturbing.
I can see how the little girls innocently allow themselves to be swept up in it, but
I can not even fathom what their parents are thinking.
That show is a pedophile's wet dream.

World's King

When I was managing Abercrombie & Fitch a guy ran in, grabbed a huge handful of cotton underwear from a tabletop display and shoved them in his face and took a big sniff. It was creepy.


So, about a month or so later we got in a huge shipment of stuff for the kids section. As soon as I pulled out of the box the bag of thongs in little girls sizes... I quit. On the spot. I called the district manager and told him to find a replacement.

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Zeraph

good for you!

healer

That's fucked up. Really.

I blame the parents of these poor kids. The ones who buy $50 sneakers for their toddlers, dress their just-teen daughters in minis and high heels. I saw this one chick on MTV (super sweet sixteen?) who got a car for her birthday and then freaked out on her mother because it was 'totally the wrong colour for her hair'.

The society we live in are already making it harder for kids to grow up at the 'regular' pace I'd like them to. Technology and the internet are maturing kids way too quickly, which has a snowball effect on the guaranteed-to-be-fucked-up kids they'll have.

It takes a village to raise a child. I hope mandy and I can find a good enough one for our kids.

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Acetylene

Yeah, WK, that was awesome!

I can say from experience that it is really, REALLY hard to dress and act like a girl and not a slut when growing up, and my experience was during the 90's - it's only gotten worse. I had to buy small sizes of women's clothes, mostly sweats and plain t-shirts, and never anything pretty or cute because almost everything that was nice was also low-cut, clingy, or both. I wasn't ready to be sexy and I felt it was wrong to advertise myself sexually when I was a little girl and had no intention of sleeping with anyone for years.

I also didn't want to wear a bra because dang, those things are uncomfortable, and so I didn't start wearing one until my breasts were actually large enough to warrent it. This was about 3 years later than most of my peers, and I wasn't a late bloomer - they were wearing lacy Victoria's Secret padded bras over their tiny not-even-A-cup nubbins. Let me tell you how much teasing I got in the changing rooms.

As a result, the general school populace thought I was lesbian. Seriously?? When I was eleven?? Come on!! And if that wasn't bad enough, any girl I hung out with got called lesbian, too, for associating with me - and not in a nice way, either.

If I ever have kids, I hope they are boys. I would not wish girlhood on anyone I loved.

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genuinegirly

I despise walking into Victoria's Secret stores. I find them more geared for preteens than adult women. When hunting for lingeree for my honeymoon last year, I had to ask the clerk for appropriate attire in my size - I couldn't find it in the store. Turns out, they didn't even keep it on the shelves. She went into the back room and brought out an assortment of negligees and teddies in my size.

I find their entire "PINK" line disturbing. It bothers me to no end when I see a 10-year-old girl wearing sweatpants that say "PINK" across their bum.

Somewhat of a parallel situation for me.

I wasn't ever called a lesbian. Always had a guy or two trying to win my affection. Never really understood why. I definitely wasn't trying to attract their attention.

I chose to wear tank tops under my shirts until I developed enough to wear a substantial bra. I started wearing a bra when I was an A cup, in the sixth grade. I suppose that I developed earlier than most girls. I was wearing baggy jeans with a Star Wars or Disney children's character T-shirt and an oversized flannel as a daily uniform through high school. I wanted nothing to do with the word sexy. I had a few dresses and skirts that I would occasionally wear, all of which were to my ankles. The only thing that really gave people an indication that I was female was my long, neatly braided hair. I was frequently hit on by the men in my choir groups when I dressed up in the slightly more revealing show choir dresses (goodness - you could see my calves!) People called me a prude. One friend gave me the nickname "puritan". I never took it as an insult.

When I went away to college my sister and mom took me shopping for two months straight, helping me to develop a sense of fashion. I started wearing slacks and blouses that said "hip adult woman" without too much "sexy". Though I've since shifted my wardrobe to include far more of the "sexy" category. I enjoy showing off a little so other men will be jealous of my husband.

I did not start wearing makeup regularly until last year (age 25). I wasn't in the habit, didn't see a need. Soon after I was married I decided to make it a part of my morning routine. I feel foolish now for not starting earlier - makeup is fun!

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shesus

WK, your story reminded me of a student I had when I taught 3rd grade. She was a pageant kid and her mom would take her to LA every year for television auditions. Her mom let her wear CK thongs. I remember thinking how inappropriate that was. Of course, this mom was also bleaching her hair at age 2. There were many issues in this family obviously. I have an autographed picture of her and visit her site every once in awhile to see if she's ever gotten a break. She hasn't. She's about 17 now.

When I was a teenager, I enjoyed wear short shorts and skirts, but I didn't own a pair of heels until I was 18 at least. I was never large enough on the top to have any sort of cleavage, but that didn't matter much because as I hit high school I went into hippie/grunge style. I wore a lot of flannel shirts, t-shirts, baggy jeans, and flowy dresses. Kids can be so mean and being called a lesbian because you didn't wear a bra is horrible acetylene.

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ametc

It's not about it being sexy! It's about being cute! I have sexy underwear.. but sometimes I need just cute underwear.. mostly when I'm on the rag. Nothing's going to happen and nobody's going to be seeing my panties most likely.. except for me.. so the rainbows and glitter are a fun way to get over my period. Also.. they're intended more for tween aged girls. My friend works for Victoria's Secret (yay discount!) and she says that they've realized that the bright colors and such seem to leave out the older generations.. because you still want the comfort of those AWESOME ASS Pink sweatpants and yoga pants.. but maybe not so much happy faces and rainbows. They're trying to tone it down a bit but still keep it to where the tacky tweensters can still be satisfied. I'm totally a tacky tweenster. Hells yeah.. love me some of that rainbow glitter smiley face.

Hyacinthe

Firstly I don't think tweenster is the word you actually want to be using (yes I looked it up)

Urban Dictionary: Tweenster

I'm not exactly elderly and am definitely not a prude and I have to say it really frightens / worries / infuriates me when I am walking around and see little girl the age of 5 - 6 wearing high heels. Little girls that age should be running around, playing in the backyard, getting covered in dirt and mud and barely recognise there is a difference between little girls and boys.

I don't shop at VS ( one shipment and the quality was just terrible) and they don't have any stores in my city so I can't make any statements about their store and I've yet to see a store here advertise adult lingerie for young girls. I do quite often see these late teens - early twenty year olds running around wearing less then I did on stage (had my last shift at the club last night btw) and to me it just looks tacky.

I find your story interesting Acetylene simply because I had a friend who had the opposite problem - she was a bit of a late developer and took to wearing a bra early - girls at school often teased her about it because she wore one when she didn't really need to.

Like mixed media I strongly believe that media is one of the main things to blame going as far back as Barbie. Little girls playing with an adult woman who was meant to be sexually active (Ken) and wore high heels constantly (since her feet were angled so as to make other footwear choices impossible) well it's just a sign of bad things to come. The advent of teenage pop stars who parade around in little to no clothing and then bratz and the other forms of doll makes it worse.

Can tell you now if I ever have a girl she will not end up like that even if I have to half kill myself to instil in her respect for herself and other women.

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MSD

While we look at kids dressing more adult-like with adults' eyes and see them trying to look sexy -- and I'm sure some are -- are they really understanding what they're doing? Do they see it as a sexual thing or are they just doing what's cool? Especially at a pre-adolescent stage of development, I don't think most have the understanding of the sexual connotations of their clothing or actions. Maybe in puberty (and who wasn't a horny little fucker during puberty?) they start to grasp it, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as it's made out to be.

ametc

Is that what a tweenster is supposed to be???? Wth... for the past few years I've been hearing it used for people aged 18-late twenties.

Acetylene

My biggest concern is actually health-related - children's feet are still mostly made of cartilage and don't finish developing until their teens! As a result, permanent deformity can result from wearing heeled or otherwise unnatural shoes at an early age. Heck, deformity can result from habitually wearing bad shoes at ANY age, but that's another story. My sister wore heels starting at age 13 and permanently fused the last joint on the first three toes; I wore nothing but tennis shoes and my yoga teacher said "Wow, your feet are amazing!" (Which was a little weird, but hey, I'll take what I can get.) The bones are so soft when young that the child may not even feel pain when they are being damaged.

Chinese foot binding, anyone?
Foot binding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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ily_forever22

Amen. I agree, the little girl routine is a bit creepy. Even watching porn, I am not into the "barely legal" crap, because all I can think of is, what if I had a daughter, and some guy was doing this to her? Its creepy and unnessesary. Thank you for not being one of those men that find the young ones attractive in that way. Thumbs up :-)