Macho Culture (Warning, bloody long thread)

[MrFriendly]

I've touched on this subject once or twice before in other threads. But I saw something on the train the other day that really made me think about this issue quite a lot lately.

While sitting on the train to the city wearing my hoody and listening to my mp3 player, my player ran out of batteries, and could now only hear a conversation between a farther and son sitting behind me. I believe they were to only other people in the carriage.

Without going into huge detail, the son more or less came out to his father on the train. Ok, so this I had to listen to, I'm a bit of a voyer like that. What the fathered had to say warmed my heart.

"Yeah, we've suspected for a while."

"You mean, you're not upset about it?" The son replies surprised.

"Why would we be upset? You are who you are, and you're our son, we love you."

Truly a Kodak moment.

The problem with this is, attitudes like that really aren't wide spread or accepted nearly enough.

I went to an all boys Catholic school where macho Rugbe culture and homophobia was strongly ingrained. The affects this had on a lot of boys and young men that went there were pretty damaging. The attitudes a lot of guys had towards women I found somewhat disturbing. But it almost seems as though these attitudes were formed as a cover so that their pears wouldn't accuse them of being gay.

Looking back on it, it all seems a little bit pathetic really, but keep in mind this was the environment these young to late teens were growing up in. Adolescence is damn confusing even for the best of us.

What I have observed in my life is that a lot of guys are naturally curious to explore their sexuality with other guys. What I have observed is that a lot of guys want to communicate their feelings. What I have observed is that a lot of guys have an effeminate side. What I have observed is that most of these guys are simply too scared to ever explore this side of themselves, to express what they feel, and embrace who they are. This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sexuality either.

It always seems to come back to what we're told is to be expected of men, as men. This idea of what a man is, and how they are to prove their manliness. Essentially, the macho culture bullshit that gets rammed down your throats from day one depending on where you're from.

A lot of the time, this is something a lot of guys will grow to reject as they feel more comfortable in and of themselves. The trouble is, far too many young men aren't making it that far. Far too many young men are taking their own lives.

Australia has one of the highest rates of youth suicide of any other developed nation, and I believe it's only second to Japan, or was. The group at the highest risk of youth suicide are young men. Within that group, young men most at risk of suicide are young men who grow up in the country, and young men entering a trade. The Australian Bureau of Statistics can't exactly find out why these young men kill themselves, it's not like they can collect suicide notes or ask the dead.

So why, are the young men in my country killing themselves it such alarming rates?

Well, I'll address young men in the country first.

Although Australia has come leaps and bounds in accepting homosexuality and gay culture, this attitude can not be found widely in the country or bush. Where, for the most part, a strong macho men-of-the-land and a strong homophobic culture still exists. But it must be noted, life in the Australian country side is fucking tough. This country suffers from constant drought, most townships are very remote and small in population, and our government has constantly failed at delivering adequate services and recourses such as health and education to the bush and country.

All the while, the media people in the country receive is mostly from the big cities, and start to feel they're missing out on all the latest things they either can't afford or simply can't get a hold of. And if you're a young man on the land, especially if you grow up on a farm, there is a strong expectation for you to work, and work hard.

You can imagine what it would be like for any young man who didn't fit the macho mold. For any young man who doesn't really have any interest in going to the local pub, every night, to piss all their money away on booze. Life in such small communities can become very difficult when people decide there is something wrong with you.

Although these attitudes are slowly starting to change, as more and more young people leave the country to live in the cities, the problem still exists, and the young suicide is still getting worse in the country.

Now, lets take a look at young men entering a trade.

When I was a young lad, I didn't really have good enough grades to get into university to do Electronics, and while at school I was doing a practical trade course as an Electrician. I found it something I was pretty good at, and started to seriously think about becoming an Electrician. Being a good sparky or tradesman in Australia can be a license to print money if you work hard. My mind quickly changed however, when I started to go out on site to get experience.

The work was fine, tough, but I still liked it. What I had serious problems with was the way I was treated. I copped a lot of harassment from blokes simply for who I was, because I didn't really follow the football, because of the music I liked, because I didn't like to go out every night and try to fuck any chick that walked near me. I'm an eccentric and effeminate guy, and I'm not going to change who I am because some people don't like that.

I stood my ground, I dished shit back to them, and most of all, I did my job to the best of my ability. After a time I had earned respect and was left alone, even accepted. But it had made me decide that this kind of industry wasn't for me.

The problem is, the kind of harassment I copped was fuck all compared what other young apprentice tradesmen have received, a problem that even the media here has started to catch on to. We're not talking about you're normal hazing antics where you get asked to find the left handed screw drivers or to go next door to get a bucket of steam. We're talking about a ridiculous amount of incidents that have resulted in people being charge for indecent assault, businesses being shut down for sever mistreatment and misconduct of staff, so on and so forth.

These things are done because these young men are expected to put up with it. They're expected to prove themselves, stand strong, and dish it all back. I think there's something wrong with that attitude when so many young men either choose to take their own life, or attempted to take the lives of their coworkers.

You might argue what this has to do with sexuality, but this has everything to do with sexuality. Being subjected to these environments will greatly influence a persons willingness or ability to communicate their feelings, to express and be comfortable with who they are, to accept others for who they are, and be open minded about their sexuality. Why would you even dare when doing so would result in constant harassment day in, and day out?

For any young man who knows that they have a side to them, trying so desperately to ignore or hide it because it's driven into them that it is wrong, this layer of stress can be the tipping point.

What I have offered here today is just a perspective. It is specific to the things I've noticed and experienced. I would encourage all of you regardless of sex, sexual orientation, and location, to offer your own perspective, experiences, thoughts and theories on macho culture and its various affects on people.

[Willravel]

Wow. That's a hell of a great post. I managed to have gay friends since high school. I'm not sure if it started out as a rebellion thing against the conservatives veins that were so overt back when I was a freshman and sophomore, but I really value the friendships I had and have with people who are straight or gay. I consider myself fortunate to have grown up in California, where things are relatively more equal for people of the less common sexual orientations.

Seriously good post.

[Shauk]

I always thought it was rather a double standard for lesbianism to be so accepted (hell, its branded as "straight" genre porn) the mere thought of lesbians can send some guys into a crotch grabbing fit.

however, you mention the male equivalent and both genders seem mostly put off by the idea.

always thought that was rather interesting, if not 100% relevant to your post. I figure it's a tad bit relevant to say that it isn't just men being conditioned to think of men in a certain way, it's women too.

[Infinite_Loser]

Can I, like, get a two sentence summary?

[Willravel]

Sure (this sentence doesn't count).

Men are treated like shit for being gay so much that gay and straight men live in fear of the label. It's messed up.

[shesus]

I think that boys are raised to be manly and a protector. I don't think it's as strong as it has been in the past though.

I had a friend who was a gay, black man. He wanted desperately to be a straight, white man. He was successful professionally (made over $200,000/yr) and had a respectable education. However, he was miserable because he wanted so badly *not* to be gay.

I don't know if society fucked him up so badly that he was riddled with guilt or if it was something in him. He was maddening to talk to because he was so hard on himself about his choices.

[MrFriendly]

Shesus I think that's a shame about your friend

I think it's a shame that perfectly functional and contributing members to society should be made to feel guilty for just being who they are.

Like I mentioned in the OP, I had to go through a lot to prove that despite who I am I can still pull my weight and to my job to a high standard regardless. And I'm not even gay, just a lil different.

[analog]

Great post... well-applied and articulated observations.

I've had several gay and lesbian friends, and it's never occurred to me, growing up (either by myself or through societal/parental/religious conditioning), to think differently. People didn't seem to harp on the evils of homosexuality all that much when I was in religious education classes, from 1st through 12th grade. Or maybe they did on occasion but I zoned it out.

Machismo is hard to get around, and even harder to break a person of, it seems. Once that sort of macho culture has set in, it's exceedingly difficult to get the person to reverse it.

I just never got told to hate anyone, and I can't imagine wanting to hate an entire group of people for any reason, let alone for a reason that has no impact on me whatsoever. I meet people all the time who are like this, however, and it always boggles my mind to see a person blindly hating others.

[Plan9]

Being gay doesn't fit the manly TabA->SlotB propagation of genes demand that men are subconsciously inundated with from birth.

INSTRUCTIONS: GO FORTH, BANG CHICKS, FIND WIFE, GET HOUSE, MAKE BABIES, DO-IT-NOW!

Hard(er) to have a house, a wife, and two kids that look just like ya if you're gay.

Not wrong by any means, but not what open society considers their ideal.

Living up to ideals is hard enough when you're straight.

...

Society today is becoming more and more okay with other styles of life.

We should stop acting like biologically effective means socially effective.

...

Counterpoint: Not like being a straight guy these days is much easier.

[abaya]

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Living up to ideals is hard enough when you're straight.

Yep, ideals are dangerous, if you ask me. Forcing people to conform to so much useless shit that is essentially arbitrary (as all culture is). I used to have a bloody ton of ideals when I was younger... and now, I nurture very few of them. I certainly don't give a flying fuck what people do with their genitals, as long as it's between consenting adults.

And the more empathetic, expressive, emotionally-intelligent (not emo) men AND women we have in the world (and the less macho, arrogant, and therefore insecure people), the better. We could all learn to be more compassionate, regardless of what kind of genitalia we have. (Does that qualify as an ideal? Damn!!)

[Infinite_Loser]

Sooo... This is what I got from reading this (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong): Non-acceptance of gays in rural communities leads to higher suicide rates.

Just wanna' make sure I got that right before I respond further >_>

[Average_Joe]

I come from a predominantly blue-collar town, and growing up in the '80's as a teen, it was definitely unacceptable to be a gay male. Homophobia was rampant in high school, and being gay or being labelled as gay meant being harrassed and shunned. Any boy who was "different" was labelled as gay, even if they weren't. I was somewhat different myself, but I guess I acted "macho" enough to avoid that label.

It seems that slowly in places like where I grew up, homosexuality is becoming more and more accepted. People like my parents, who were anti-gay and implored me to be as well, are dying off, and are being replaced by people like me, who are teaching our children to accept others no matter how different.

[MrFriendly]

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Sooo... This is what I got from reading this (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong): Non-acceptance of gays in rural communities leads to higher suicide rates.

Just wanna' make sure I got that right before I respond further >_>

It's not just about non acceptance of gays. Although that is a part of it. It's more to do with the overt macho culture putting far to much pressure on young men to be something they're simply not. A culture which more or less teaches young men to hide their feelings and problems instead of expressing them.

I know it was a long post, but I was trying to give an insight and a perspective.

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by MrFriendly

I know it was a long post, but I was trying to give an insight and a perspective.

Chicks and gay guys agree: Length helps!

(drum crash)

[Racnad]

You're right, it's not just about sexuality, it's about expectations for fit a cultural norm.

I'm completely heterosexual. The woman I'm visually attracted to would meet the approval of any beer drinking jock. But the problem was sports. I've never had an interest in team sports, which made it tough growing up in a culture (yes, California), where from 7th grade through 12th a boy's worth seems to be measured by his athletic ability.

As a young adult I dreaded World Series and Superbowl season because everyone seemed to expect me to have an opinion on which team should win. Even women view the non-sports fan as less manly. I woman I was dating once stopped returning my calls after I called her during Monday Night Football. Not only was I not watching the game, I wasn't even aware that the local team was playing. When I called back after the game I got her answering machine, and never got her live on the line again.

As I've gotten older I discovered there are lots of male non-sports fans, and they aren't more likely to be gay than anyone else. We're just a quiet monority.

[Lasereth]

I think one of the major problems with the homosexuality in the world is many believe it's a choice to be gay. They have a hatred for gay people because they think they're just trying to be different, trying to trivialize others' sexual orientation. That's not true. Being gay is something that you can't control.

I do think it's messed up in our society that being gay is cause for a christian to go to hell.

That's another big topic: what do you look like if you're accepting of a type of people who are going to hell?

Once you get past the preposterousness of the bible saying that gays are going to hell then the view on gays is way different.

I personally believe that gay people are the human species' last ditch effort to instate a biological population control. Billions of people on the earth...what better way to curve the population than have a number of people interested in the sex that doesn't enable procreation?

People who are afraid of gay people are weak. They're weak minded and weak spirited. They can't stand up for themselves and are afraid that their reputation may be tarnished by the association of a gay-accepter. The truly strong and masculine/macho guys in the world are those who accept people whether gay or straight because they're comfortable with who they are and are strong enough to stand up to naysayers.

[cadre]

I had this friend in high school, he was genuinely one of the coolest and nicest people I've ever met. And, he was gay. Did I care? Of course not, it seems trivial to me. But I was talking to him one day and he told me that his parents haven't talked to him since he came out and he beats himself up over it thinking it's his fault.

I honestly hate people like his parents, and I don't think that they help anyone by being unwilling to face facts. I grew up in an area where it wasn't okay to be gay and I knew people who seemed like they were constantly struggling to accept themselves because of the homophobic culture around them.

Case 2: I used to work with this man, a long time ago. I still talk to him but one day he told me he thought he was gay and he wanted to know what I felt about that. I told him it didn't matter to me, that he should do what he wants and not worry about everyone else. But to this day he refuses to accept that he's gay and he constantly asks me what I think and if he is or isn't. I think he's been taught all his life that gay = evil and so he's just going to hide it the rest of his life.


Our society makes me sad sometimes. I'm very glad that the town I live in now is one where no one really cares what you're into and most everyone is accepted for who they are. The benefit of living in a smaller college town I suppose.

[Ustwo]

Just because you are gay doesn't mean its ok to be a pussy.

Getting picked on sucks, and yes gay guys will get picked on more, so will short guys, weaker guys, guys who talk funny, guys with bad zits, guys who start puberty later, guys who are fat, guys who like opera, guys who are goth, etc.

Its the dominance games we males play to find our spots in the pecking order and its very prevalent in the teens and 20s. Being different sets you up as a target, and if you act like a pussy about it, you will attract more 'attacks' as you are seen as weak and other weak males will attempt to prove they are dominant.

So while it would be great if we could all be accepting and hold hands and love each other as fellow human beings, you are crazy if you think thats going to work with young males raging with new found testosterone and generally not enough sex to match it.

Basically, yea being bullied sucks, but it depends on how you deal with it. The problem with most whipped puppies is they allow themselves to be whipped.

Now as for parents abandoning their gay kids, to me thats just sick and sad, but there are lots of crappy parents out there.

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Just because you are gay doesn't mean its ok to be a pussy.

Yeah, sure... but the other philosophy is that... who said it? Dennis Miller? "Gay is the new African-American." Meaning minority, of course.

I think the point was that we use sexuality as an excuse for the rest. Their potential jingle? It's okay to act like a pussy if you use your ass like one.

...

This makes me want to fight people. For no reason.

[Slims]

I plan on having kids eventually, and I am doing so because I want to leave a legacy.

It will be a wasted effort if they decide not to breed. I think there are very sound incentives for people to not want their kids to turn out gay.

Likewise, you want your sons to be able to stand up for themselves, and not crumple in the face of adversity. I have every intention of teaching my children how to be men (or women) and that involves teaching some principles about how to live your life.

Do I think that dissapproving of a gay son will make him straight? Nope, and while I really don't want to have to deal with that, if it happens, then I am going to accept him for who he is. However, I think making it clear that certain things are not acceptable in our culture may keep my children from experimenting with things that will stigmatize them. There may be nothing 'morally' wrong with homosexual acts, but there are definately social consequences to pay.

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by Greg700

...that certain things are not acceptable in our culture may keep my children from experimenting with things that will stigmatize them. There may be nothing 'morally' wrong with homosexual acts, but there are definately social consequences to pay.

Legacy is important to me as well. I want lotsa women to mother my legions. Actually why I'm at the TFP. To find these women.

As you know from your time in uniform: Human life is a venture in wasted effort, bro. You also stated: Your kids will be what they want regardless. Are you the model human your parents wanted you to be? I doubt any of us are what our parents went to bed at night dreaming of... but we're good enough.

We also went over the "gay doesn't equal wuss" thing, too. Gay guys can be calm, collected, and just as badass as their snatch-seeking counterparts. I'm pretty sure there are gay guys out there that would beat the shit out of you and me in like .8 seconds with a well-placed sidekick followed by a lead hand blitz.

The social consequences are a matter of the majority's philosophy. Think: Ancient Rome and man/boy sex. A large number of the badass warrior politicians were doing it... because society thought it was kosher/good/awesome/heck-yes. We all agree that ancient roman warriors kicked ass... but do we admit they were manbutt pirates? Not so much. Our values have changed. They will continue to shift back and forth.

Manly changes. Sexuality changes.

That '50s actor... Rock Hudson... was a manly-man and gay as hell.

Maybe gay is the new manly.

...

I like women. They have cool slots. And boobs.

Everybody likes boobs.

Even gay men.

[hrandani]

The problem is not macho or machismo culture.

I grew up, and still live in, Texas. I find that in a lot of respects the culture resembles what you have described of Australia.

The important thing is the presentation of oneself as completely self-assured and confident beyond giving a shit what other people think of you. Because they will test you to see how you fit into their society, to see if you can be trusted not to break down. This is a behavior exhibited in all orders of primate.

I'm clearly fairly weird, and don't belong much like the OP- and I only took flack for it once, in middle school, and I responded to it with violence. I never had any problems after that, despite making no effort to integrate into the local culture. You may think of yourself as effeminate but I promise you your reptilian brain knows what it means to defend yourself.

It's a useful lesson that they are trying to impart to you and one that you will carry with you for the rest of your life. Strength and independence. Because you're never going to get acceptance from the apes, so you've got to toe the line or prepare to fight for your right to be different. That's life on this ball of dirt. I'm sorry.

[MrFriendly]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Just because you are gay doesn't mean its ok to be a pussy.

Getting picked on sucks, and yes gay guys will get picked on more, so will short guys, weaker guys, guys who talk funny, guys with bad zits, guys who start puberty later, guys who are fat, guys who like opera, guys who are goth, etc.

Its the dominance games we males play to find our spots in the pecking order and its very prevalent in the teens and 20s. Being different sets you up as a target, and if you act like a pussy about it, you will attract more 'attacks' as you are seen as weak and other weak males will attempt to prove they are dominant.

I do actually agree with these comments, especially regarding the pecking order. Male social dynamics can be painfully simple at times.

The thing is, I don't feel that being gay / bi / straight, should define you. I was recently asked by a friend what would happen if I suddenly found myself in a relationship with a man. To be honest, I wouldn't change a damn thing about me. I'm not going to start going to gay clubs because I hate clubs in general, and I'm not going to start going to gay bars, because gay culture really isn't my thing.

And you're right, people shouldn't use their sexuality / race / religion / spots on their face for being a Captain Pussy Pants. But nor should people use a persons sexuality / race / religion / spots on their face as an excuse to harass them no end.

The interesting thing is, from what I've noticed, especially at the school I went to, if you're confident in who you are then you can easily stand up to peoples shit. There were a couple of overt gays at the school, and no one ever gave them crap about it because they were very confident in and of themselves, that instantly gains a lot of respect. I mean, teasing them for being gay wasn't going to wash off because the general conversation would go

"Eeeeeer you fag!"

"Yes, I'm gay, nice observation, got any other pearls of wisdom?"

"Je.. ah... fuck you...."

I feel I've actually articulated my ideas very poorly in this thread. But then again, it is a slightly complex issue. I feel that reasons overt macho culture can be so destructive is because it's not very accepting of guys who are a bit different.

The problem I see is that overt macho culture can be so deeply homophobic, so much so, as someone pointed out, that both straight and gay men are horrified of gaining the label. This is the problem, this is where it stops being about sexuality, and starts to be a witch hunt that stifles a young mans ability to express and communicate what's really on their mind. Encouraging anyone to bottle shit up is dangerous, and if something is really bothering someone, and they perceive that talking about it is going to earn them the "faggot" label, that stress can push them a little too far.

Bear in mind, the group I'm talking about are young men 16-23, with impressionable minds, and going through what is a confusing time for even the best of us.

Being able to stand up for yourself and who you are is important. Being able to be confident and return peoples bullshit with 9.5% interest will make your life easier. But alot of young men simply aren't like that. It takes a hell of a lot to learn that kind of confidence and head strong mind.

It just pains me that so many young men will take their own lives because they don't know how to fit in, or can't reconcile the fact that they are different.

[Infinite_Loser]

There's a big difference between acting effeminate and acting gay. If you don't act gay then you won't be called gay. Seems pretty simple to me.

Also, I'd like to take this time to say that you're REALLY simplifying suicide and it's causes.

[MrFriendly]

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Also, I'd like to take this time to say that you're REALLY simplifying suicide and it's causes.

I'm not trying to do that at all, I'm just look at one aspect, I have mentioned several times that I'm just looking at an aspect.

I agree with you, suicide is a complex issue, very complex. But this thread isn't about that.

[Hyacinthe]

Infinite_Loser did you even read what MrFriendly said?

Just reading your short comment there makes me think that you didn't and if you did you sure as hell interpreted it differently from me and seemingly everyone else.

Currently in Australia the amount of men below the age of 24 is 10 times that of similarly aged women. The majority of those people are from a rural Australian background, whether that be a small town or cattle station.

MrFriendly said the inability of people from those backgrounds to accept homosexuality MIGHT contribute to the suicide rates.

This is the problem, this is where it stops being about sexuality, and starts to be a witch hunt that stifles a young mans ability to express and communicate what's really on their mind. Encouraging anyone to bottle shit up is dangerous

This to me is the key issue for what MrFriendly is talking about using homosexuality as an example. Men are encouraged by the macho culture to be strong and independent to show no signs of weakness as Ustwo said earlier. Sometimes however you're going to feel weak, someones comment is going to hurt and young men are more likely to bottle that emotion up until it reaches dangerous levels then young women.

Women for example are more likely to see a psychiatrist or a doctor then men. How many of you men here would go and see a doctor because you were having mood swings as opposed to simply shrugging it off?

As for your comment:

There's a big difference between acting effeminate and acting gay. If you don't act gay then you won't be called gay. Seems pretty simple to me.

I find that totally offensive to be honest. What IS acting gay? Are you saying that all homosexual men act in a certain way unlike the rest of humanity? That simply being attracted to men makes them act in a certain way which displays "GAY" to the rest of us? That this is different to an effeminate man who has no interest in sports / cars / computers and is more likely to be interested in theatre / dance / fashion but is in no way attracted to other men? I have homosexual friends who are more macho then the majority of my heterosexual ones does that make them any less attracted to their own gender?

Which one of those two men is most likely to be harassed about being 'gay'?

The use of gay and faggot as insults is not acceptable to me no matter the context and even in public I'll tell other people to stop. To me they're just as offensive as calling someone a "Nigger" or "Abo" or "Chink"

Once again this is NOT purely about the sexuality but about the inability of young men to communicate that sometimes these actions go above an beyond what is allowed by the need of men of those age groups to establish a pecking order. It is more about making it acceptable to seek help whether it be from a friend, family members or health professional when they get to the stage where death becomes a better alternative then living with their problems.

[Infinite_Loser]

Originally Posted by Hyacinthe

find that totally offensive to be honest. What IS acting gay? Are you saying that all homosexual men act in a certain way unlike the rest of humanity?

Even though you'll find that nowhere did I ever state all homosexual men act in a certain way unlike the rest of humanity, yes, that's essentially what I'm saying. You can find what I said as offensive as you want, but it doesn't change the fact of the matter that gays, on average, display recognizable differences between them and their heterosexual counterparts and there are on-going studies which reinforce this theory.

Psychologists used to believe homosexuality was caused by nurture — namely overbearing mothers and distant fathers — but that theory has been disproved. Today, scientists are looking at genes, environment, brain structure and hormones. There is one area of consensus: that homosexuality involves more than just sexual behavior; it’s physiological.

Bailey and his colleagues set up a series of experiments in his lab at Northwestern University. In one study, researcher Gerulf Rieger videotaped gay and straight people sitting in a chair, talking. He then reduced them visually to silent black and white outlined figures and asked volunteers to see if they could tell gay from straight. The idea was to find out if certain stereotypes were real and observable.

Based on physical movement and gestures of the figures, more often than not, the volunteers in the study could tell a difference.

"So, is the conclusion that gay people do in fact move differently?" Stahl asked Rieger.

"Yeah, absolutely," he replied.

It's not true 100 percent of the time; it is true on average. The researchers also studied the way gay and straight people talk, and they found differences on average there too.

Linky Linky

Sometimes I think I'm the only one who actually bothers to research these things.

Which one of those two men is most likely to be harassed about being 'gay'?

I don't know nor do I care as it had little to do with my initial statement.

*Points to the whole effeminate =/= gay thing*

The use of gay and faggot as insults is not acceptable to me no matter the context and even in public I'll tell other people to stop. To me they're just as offensive as calling someone a "Nigger" or "Abo" or "Chink".

Really... People need to learn to stop being so damn overly sensitive. Words have no power over you unless you let them have power over you.

Once again this is NOT purely about the sexuality but about the inability of young men to communicate that sometimes these actions go above an beyond what is allowed by the need of men of those age groups to establish a pecking order. It is more about making it acceptable to seek help whether it be from a friend, family members or health professional when they get to the stage where death becomes a better alternative then living with their problems.

Sorry, but the main focal point is about homosexuality.

*Points to the opening anecdote, the constant references to homosexuality and acceptance throughout the OP and the fact that, like, nearly every response has something to do with someone being gay*

Anyway, I'm still trying to understand where/how the whole suicide thing fits in here. While men commit suicide more often then women, women attempt suicide more often than men do (At least this is true in the US). Men are simply better than killing themselves then women are, but it would seem as if women are the ones more susceptible to social pressures.

...But I think that's getting a bit off-topic.

[Shauk]

crompsin, your post had me falling over laughing.

hurray for boobies!

[Plan9]

Glad you enjoyed, Shauk. I aim to please. In fact, I'm going to say this to a woman the next time I'm lying in bed with her covered in the slimy glow of sex:

"You know what, babe? I'm glad we did the sex. I must say: You've got awesome slots. And boobs. And everybody likes boobs."

...

While I'm not gay, will never be gay, and can't really understand it because my meat torpedo is constantly trying to bury itself in Slot B... I'm doing my best at not letting any one person's sexual orientation change how I feel about their other traits and life choices.

Hell, my best friend is gay.

[Johnny Rotten]

Originally Posted by MrFriendly

The thing is, I don't feel that being gay / bi / straight, should define you. I was recently asked by a friend what would happen if I suddenly found myself in a relationship with a man. To be honest, I wouldn't change a damn thing about me. I'm not going to start going to gay clubs because I hate clubs in general, and I'm not going to start going to gay bars, because gay culture really isn't my thing.

I think the problem is that people who don't know gay people assume they have some kind of "lifestyle." That gay/les/bi folks live their lives in a substantially different way; that "they" have kinks and fetishes and immoral tendencies different from "us." Ignorance and primal fear is what it boils down to, in my experience. Then you have the folks who interpret the Bible and Koran in ways that make this sexual minority out to be dangerous deviants who are going to Hell and should be kept away from your children.

The existence of a given gay community is a response to this cultural ostracization, not an organic thing. Safety in numbers. Kinks and fetishes beyond the norm of what you see in the straight world are typically a symptom of the psychological pressure that goes into being gay in a straight world. A guy walks around in leather chaps not because he's a wierdo, but because society has kind of messed with his mind and/or he wants to stick it to the squares. Gay pride parades get visually outlandish both to celebrate and to provoke awareness. You can't say, "Well, it doesn't help for them to dress and act like that," because it's mainstream society that has contributed to the formulation of this image. Kind of like the Butterfly Effect.

Everything is connected, we're all people in the end who want similar things, like freedom, privacy, and opportunity, and the sooner we accept how connected we all are, the sooner society as a whole can improve. How we treat the minority is indicative of the overall human spirit.

[cadre]

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Really... People need to learn to stop being so damn overly sensitive. Words have no power over you unless you let them have power over you.

I agree with Hyacinthe, I don't think that using words like "gay" and "faggot" to attack people is acceptable and people that use them as such contribute to the homophobic culture that this thread is addressing.

And yeah, Ustwo has a point, much of the teasing can be attributed to kids being kids. I agree with Johnny Rotten too, the whole people fear what they don't know thing. Which is also part of the reason that mainstream culture doesn't look at swingers and any other sexual deviant in a good way.

So I guess in the end, our kinks damn us all. (slightly off topic)

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Really... People need to learn to stop being so damn overly sensitive. Words have no power over you unless you let them have power over you.

Forgive me for saying so, but if I walked up to your father on the street and called him the n-word, how do you suppose he'd feel?

I'd obviously never do this, but it could happen. See there are a lot of insensitive people out there who don't have the necessary vocal filters necessary to prevent their hate from getting out.

[Infinite_Loser]

Originally Posted by willravel

Forgive me for saying so, but if I walked up to your father on the street and called him the n-word, how do you suppose he'd feel?

I seriously doubt he'd care.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

I seriously doubt he'd care.

Would you tell any member of your particular race not to be offended by that word?

[Ustwo]

Thread jack incoming.

N-word?

Really, such PCisms gives a word too much power.



I'm always reminded of this when I see it.

[Infinite_Loser]

Originally Posted by willravel

Would you tell any member of your particular race not to be offended by that word?

Yes, I would. Words can only bother you if you let them bother you.

It's always annoyed how every once in a while some celebrity in on the news for making a racial slur or a slur against gays. The simple fact that people care to the point where they absolutely DEMAND public apologies shows that they've got the self-worth of mud. Really. People need to buck up and stop letting trivial things bother them. I have a lesbian friend who uses the term 'gay' all the time when something goes wrong. Doesn't bother her one bit. Makes you wonder why other people can't be like that...

[/endthreadjack]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Thread jack incoming.

N-word?

Really, such PCisms gives a word too much power.



I'm always reminded of this when I see it.

Naggers!

[chancester]

I used to be a beer drinker, and I turned to cider after getting burnt out. I have been insulted countless times because I am not getting a "beer." It is truly sad to think that there are guys out there that are drinking something they hate, to fit in to be a "guy." Women have it made......they can order a fruity drink and be all good. If you order a beer, that's even a plus where I live. I just can't wrap my head around why someone would go through there life hiding. Life is a wonderful thing that must be explored, rather than shunned. Great post, I would love to have a cider with ya!

[Plan9]

To hell with the sex, I just wanna fight.