hagatha

I wanted to post this here in order to get feedback from both genders.
I've been thinking about dating and after an informal survey, was wondering if in this post-feminist world the art of romance is dead.

I have talked to woman who are dating older men, that is men in their late 50's and up, and there is a decided difference in their approach to relationships. There's candlelight, spontaneous romantic gestures (coming over with all the fixings for a romantic dinner) and thoughtful gifts for no reason.

For my other friends dating men under 45, its like everything is 50/50 and they bemoan not feeling special. The feeling that they are being taken for granted happens rapidly once they've had sex.

In this age of accessible birth control and the expectation of premarital sex, has the idea of courting a woman gone out the window? Has the quest for equality resulted in women no longer being seen as worthy of real effort by men raised in a post-feminist society?

Just wondering.

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Grasshopper Green

While there is nothing wrong with a man treating a woman this way if it's something they both want and expect, I don't see the reasoning that a woman should be treated differently than the man in the romance department. I know my hubby appreciates small gestures that make him feel important and worthwhile as much as I do, and the onus shouldn't be on him to make the romance come alive.

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Moskie

Romantic people (guys included) still exist. I'm one of them (aged 25).

However, it's not like I do it every girl I take out on a date. I become romantic when the girl begins to mean a lot to me.

And I also tend to not do it for girls that expect it. Those are the ones that seem to appreciate it the least, actually....

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Elphaba

I agree with Medusa. I believe the sexual freedom afforded women has been a good thing overall. Relationships exist on a continuum of how much each party is emotionally invested in the relationship. Friends with benefits do not have the expectation of romance, whereas a committed couple's relationship is enhanced by romantic gestures by both.

Willravel

Now men and women can be romantic with each other on an equal playing field. I'd say that feminism (wait...'feminism'? is it 1993?) has helped romance. I am helplessly romantic, and so is my wife, which amkes our marrige stronger. If only I was romantic, I could end up feeling like I was putting more into the relationship than my partner, and that could lead to feelings of not being wanted or even rejection. The way it is now is healthier than it was before.

There have always been people who simply aren't romantic, though, and there always will.

Konichiwaneko

The only thing I don't like about feminism is how hypocritical it can be. The equal too only if it benifits me stuff.

That's another factor though.

Concerning the romance part. I think its more that guys now aren't as sensitive to the romantic things as before (literature, art, dancing...blah blah blah). This doesn't apply to everyone, but now with internet and so on we've seem to become more...shallow.

Seemingly the more information we are able to achieve, the more shallower as a culture we become.

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aberkok

I don't hear any women saying it's the man's responsibility to be the romantic one, so I see this as a lamentation over men no longer putting in "the effort." Not really ever having been on the dating scene, I can't really say what goes on in general.

I do know that if I was on the dating scene, it would be tempting for me to use feminism and equal treatment as an excuse not to put in the effort.

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serlindsipity

Im going to jump on board with aberkok with the question of 'has society of the past placed the expectation of men to do all the courting?' becuase I would say yes and although Im not saying it is right or wrong, but it makes me wonder if this issue is inherintly lopsided.

However, I will stop thread jacking. My response? Perhaps feminism is redefining romance. I am Feminist and I like being courted and doing the courting myself. In the mood to go on a nice date to dinner? I can ask him if I don't think he's woudl have thought of it at the moment I wanted to go. Same for anything.

Feminism might be leveling the playing field and making people open up their eyes to gender roles in society.

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Lizra

Hmmm....dunno, guys over 50 might have more money and less on the looks department...so they play up what they have to get what they want. Since I'm 50, and haven't dated young guys....are they really that bad!?
Also...don't have sex so soon then.....really!...... I'm beginning to suspect that (in everything) 70% of the enjoyment in life is in the planning of things.....

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snowy

Great response. I would agree. I think that feminism has given people the ability to romance one another equally, if that's what they want to do. Feminism really is about choice, in the end--and that's where it applies to this issue. People either choose to romance or be romanced, to engage in relationships where that kind of old-fashioned romance occurs, or they choose to redefine romance, or opt out of the romantic expectation entirely. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those choices.

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Gilda

I'm a feminist and I love being romanced. I am fortunate in that I'm married to a woman who's willing to make little romantic gestures for me, even after five years together. I do the same for her, but in a different way because of the different roles we play in our relationship.

One thing that gets lost with the idea of equal treatment is that equal does not mean the same. Equal treatment is about allocating resources in such a way that the needs of both partners are met. Equal is about balancing how we accommodate a partner's needs with meeting one's own needs.

Do I get Grace flowers or other token gifts as often as she does me? Nope. We're different people, and I need that sort of thing more than she does; she's much more self contained than I am. At the same time, I'm much more likely to dress up in lingerie and model that for her or fix her a special treat.

She buys the lingerie, I wear it. We're acting differently, but it's something that meets both of our needs in different ways.

Treating each other equally isn't about being the same. It's about expending effort to make sure your partner's needs are met as often as your own. Sometimes there are things that benefit both.

Men and women are, on average, different in their behaviors and emotional, romantic, and sexual needs. For women, on average, sex has a larger emotional component to it than for men. There is, of course, a much larger individual variance within the sexes that is more important than this, which is to say that even more than the sexes are different, people are different.

Look at your partner as an individual, and balance her needs against your own, without worrying about the degree to which those fit or break some stereotype.

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TheLastInch

First, if your dating "modernized or feminized men" then you are the one who is to blame for lack of romance. Maybe you expect too much and with such expectations you miss the little things you guys attempt to do for you. Pay attention. Talk to one of your guys and see if they feel like you don't appreciate their attempts to be romantic. Rarely one expectations are superceded by reality, unless one is forever optimistic AND sees good in everything, a rare quality albeit slightly annoying.

Secondly, redefine feminism. The women you consider to be feminists may just be more outgoing and less uncomfortable to speak to men and ask them to date or hook up casually.

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Philangicality

Romance cannot be killed.

Feminist views have only intensified romance and made it more logical than emotional.

When goals and expectations are clearly defined the difficulty is uncovered.

It all depends on if somebody wants to settle or not with the happiness of their romantic relationship.

n0nsensical

Why do you expect special treatment in the first place?

hagatha

Because I'm pretty fucking special, that's why.

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Chimera

In short.....No.

Romance is far from dead, but the format has changed in practice. Was a time when the Male took upon himself the bulk of the courting ritual, and put in the effort required to win over the female of his attention. This was primarily because women were seen as a commodity, and an asset to the man in the long term happiness of life. Women were prized, in a way, and treated accordingly. Some men still feel this way, and continue to place women on the pedestal.
Times have begun to change, and women are becoming the hunter, rather than the hunted. Men now know they are in demand as well, particularly those considered a great "catch", and because of this can expect the woman to be somewhat more involved in the courtship process. Women are not alone in the need to feel valued, and men have begun to let them know they have needs beyond a wet willy. What some may see as an end to romance others will see as the natural expression of what women have been asking of men for centuries....expressing feelings.
Truth be told, those men truly worthy of your time, know they are. This might place you in a situation where you actually have to work for the relationship to solidify....welcome to the world men have lived in forever, enjoy the view.

That is not for you to decide.....anymore.

little_tippler

One thing I think has come about in "modern" times that is related to the issue of equality for men and women, is that romantic attitudes like courting (yes ok it's also something that was expected before and maybe it didn't actually mean much, it was just the done thing), or doing special little things for your "date", or even liking romantic things, is now ridiculed and considered corny.

I for one love most things romantic, and am not afraid to say so. I don't like it if it's not heartfelt, or if it's over the top regarding the situation (i.e. you've only been on two dates and he already has pet names for you), but I think there is a place for it.

Most romantic gestures have been erradicated from our normal everyday relationships, and so it can seem forced if you try to do something romantic. Some people are even embarrassed by it, because they may be made fun of by other, modern, people.

I agree that romance is less present in the younger generations, but not only in men. I agree though that a lot of men don't have a clue about romance...it's a shame because I'm pretty sure that, even with people who claim they don't appreciate it much, any romantic gesture that is well meant and sincere is always a source of pleasure to your partner, and could become a cherished memory that will remain in the heart of that person - even if you don't stay together. Giving others good memories is always worth it - that's what we'll have when we're old and grey.

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We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
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Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

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Carno

Are you?

Charlatan

I think Gilda put it best:

I would also point out that Hagatha is right when she says she expects it because she is special. I too expect special treatment from the one I love.

The point is, if the person you are with does not think you are special enough to do the little things you like or to surprise you when you least expect it... and you don't feel the same way about them... then why are you together?

You should be "really fucking special" to each other or why bother.

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mixedmedia

I've come back to this thread several times trying to find the words to express how I feel about this. Charlatan found them.

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Jozrael

Gilda largely sums up my feelings on this, however, in response to what little_tippler said about romance being pressured out of society nowadays, that's quite true, but some people still work to have it. I cooked a 5-course candlelit dinner for my 6th lunaversary (6th months) with my love, and was quite ridiculed for it by several of my friends - some thought that 6th months was something that could be celebrated by a kiss, and that a candlelit dinner was something only for 'important' dates, like a year or 5 or 10, while others thought that it was outmoded and silly to do at any point. Didn't stop me from doing it, but it showed me the range of feelings there can still be on this. There were several of my friends who thought it was pretty damn cool, and my love (who shares similar views on romance as I do) enjoyed it very much so.

So, it really depends on the individual, which is what I keep on hearing reoccurring in this thread.

Bill O'Rights

Charlatan wins the thread.

Seriously. Does anything more than that really need to be said?

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Chimera

Agreed.....it all comes down to individual attention.


But, the road is no longer one way.

abaya

I echo Charlie as well. I think romance is a beautiful thing, and it gets me into bed quickly every time. But I don't expect it to be a one-way thing, whatsoever. I LOVE doing little thoughtful things for my husband, and I love it when he does the same for me. I can't imagine it any other way, really. Does that make me a feminist? Who cares.

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Baraka_Guru

Okay, at the risk of going off on a rant here, I'm going to respond to this.

First, I don't believe feminism of any form killed romance. I think the manifestation of what we still idealize as romance died long before that. I would put the date at around the Great Wars and the advent of Modernism. By the time Modernist ideals came around, we lost our faith in just about every institution that we had come to rely on... I think the institution of love and relationships was one of them. Many around the world underwent a massive transition in the way we live. Never again will our societies be the same.

Yet, we still cling onto certain ideals. Romance being one. Feminism was not a response to the institution of relationships per se, there were a number of factors, most of which were rooted in the public sphere, not behind closed doors. I don't want to get into a discussion of feminism here, but I will say that it remains to be one of the most misunderstood and misconstrued ideas to come out of the twentieth century... possibly second only to post-modernism.

Now, about romance. I would like to point out that the ideal of romance that we uphold is kind of cheesy, isn't it? Just type in "romance ideas" into Google and read some of those tips. Is this what any of us want? If you want a good relationship, you don't need to play these little games, you just need to be yourself and respect your partner for who they are and everything will fall into place on its own. If that doesn't work out, then the relationship would be doomed no matter what.

In my opinion, one of the leading causes of relationship failures is inflated and/or mismatched expectations at the outset. Both men and women are guilty of this, and who can we blame except a society that is still clinging onto outmoded ideals that are long dead. You want romance? Read some classic literature. We can even start a new thread on some good recommendations.

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MSD

Our society is lazy, impersonal, and focused on instant gratification. That's what killed romance. Everything is about "me, now." Life is about running through the same old routine every day, every week, every year. Our culture has forgotten what makes life fun and relationships are taken for granted rather than seen as special.

Lasereth

I'd just like to come into this thread and say that romance is pretty much dead whether it be from feminism or not. You can ask out a girl and she thinks you're a creep. You flirt with a girl and she calls the cops. You ask them out on a date and they say no even if they like you. Simply telling a girl that you find her attractive was the norm 50 years ago, and now it will end with you in jail.

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Sage

I agree with Lasereth.

Personally, I am a rather misogynist woman- I seriously dislike women who choose to be, what I percieve as, "weak" and "girly." Mind games, sex games, gossip, lies... all that crap just turns me off of someone entirely. I find that I feel the same way about men who exhibit the same charastics- I prefer the people that I associate with to be strong of character, mind, and personality.

However, look at the way that society has started presenting the "ideal" man and woman. It seems these days a woman is supposed to be small and fragile, and a man is either this big muscly guy (sometimes), or more frequently is thin and emo and generally androgenous. Men seem to be expected to act as non-threatening as possible, and women are supposed to ignore them completely until they feel a "need" for a man in their life. This leaves little room for romance, as women are acting more and more like having a man is more like having a fashion accessory.

I like romance... to a point. I prefer romance tempered with a very healthy dose of testosterone- a guy who opens the door for me, but still acts protective and aggressive. Fortunately my husband is the perfect combination of genius personality and sheer masculinity... he just lights ALL my fires in that sense

Also, if we're discussing "romance" we need to really think about the definition we're working with. Are we talking about stereotypical flowers, chocolate, and chivalry, or are we going with a more individualist definition? Personally, I think flowers and chocolate ARE cheesy, because if I were dating someone and they got me flowers and chocolate it means they haven't been paying much attention to what I want or need. In addition, what I consider "romantic" definitely isn't what everyone else is going to agree with.

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MechCow

I'm with sage.

I find that now there are so many different types of women going in so many directions, there is no clear guidelines on how to behave. To one flowers are romantic, to another they are cheezy and to another they are old fashioned or even misogynistic. The truth is I have no idea what women want or how they expect me to behave, I have tried being myself and that never works so I have tried being an asshole and that works incredibly well but I feel like shit doing it.

I know I won't make any friends by saying this but I think its time women got back in their box and we concentrated on the real problems of the world like the environment. Feminism began as a beautiful opposition to oppression, and somewhere a long the way during the 90's it was purchased and sold back to us as a product. A new grassroots movement would be nice, something far less self-centred (and preferrably involving both genders). :-)

Sage

Hear Hear!

More free love for all!

Preferably a renaissance of the 60's... lots of sex, all the time, with everyone! We'll have to cure AIDS first but perhaps if we offer some sort of incentive program... get all the horny guys and gals to put their brainpower together then offer them first dibs?

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slimshaydee

Back in the days before free love, young men actively persued women to find a wife, someone they could spend the rest of their life with. You were expected to be married young and pop out your first baby straight away. Guys spent countless time and money courting girls so they could have a life partner.

In more modern times, people aren't expected to be married young. They can get married whenever they want, and if they grow bored of the person they can always get a no fault divorce. Most people in their early to mid 20s aren't even thinking about marriage, they just want to have fun and perhaps focus on their career before settling down. Relationships generally don't last very long, and a lot of friends with benefits situations occur. So why the fuck would some young bloke spend a lot of his time and money doing romantic things for a woman when the relationship is not very likely to last for too long anyway.

hagatha

Relationships generally don't last very long, and a lot of friends with benefits situations occur. So why the fuck would some young bloke spend a lot of his time and money doing romantic things for a woman when the relationship is not very likely to last for too long anyway.[/QUOTE]

Relationships generally don't last very long, and a lot of friends with benefits situations occur. So why the fuck would some young bloke spend a lot of his time and money doing romantic things for a woman when the relationship is not very likely to last for too long anyway.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, if you see people as disposable you're right, why would you bother?

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Mistress Kali

The answer to your query, Hagatha, depends on the people involved. For me, Feminism has provided me with the latitude to have a successful career, financial independence and hence the freedom to date from desire instead of to find a breadwinner. I am fiercely independent but I still prefer men who are gentleman, value women as ladies and are romantic. And yes, you ought to value yourself as special and men who don't get this are best avoided!

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Charlatan

I agree with this. I am constantly reading on this forum and hear about off the forum that such and such didn't do this or that. The biggest problem is expectation not being met or that the expectations are too high.

As always, communication is the key.

I have a friend that will not date a man if he doesn't open doors for her, especially is she is in the passenger seat of the car. Now we can argue the merits of this elsewhere but the fact remains that in this day and age guys don't have a clear rulebook from which to read. One woman might like this and another might hate it.

She has many other expectations as well. Interestingly, she is still single at 45 and desperate to have babies. She will be single forever. Her expectations are too high (she has many more criteria for the perfect man as well).

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Mistress Kali

A key part of communication is finding out if you and your partner have similar expectations. If a woman, such as myself, wishes for romance she screens for compatibility. There is no rulebook, we have our own rules and and seek others who are on the same page.

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Ourcrazymodern?

OP feminism was supposed to lead to equal rights? There must be equal responsibility going into it, sexist issues being what they are...

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serlindsipity

Wow, this thread took quite a turn.

So if romance is dead or dying, how hard would it be to revive it? And by revive, I mean rethink and revitalize.

Just throwing that out. if its thread jack, just dont answer. But I am curious

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hagatha

I don't know if this answers your question, but I'll give you an example. In my last relationship I started writing letters to the guy. He was away, had inconsistent email/telelphone access. It was actually very romantic to send and receive written correspondance. I took the initiative and we both got into it. I don't know many people who do that anymore but it was so much better than email and it did require dedication by both parties.

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serlindsipity

So is this romantic simply because of situation? Would you do the same for a guy who really didnt like being on the phone even tho he had one?

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Lucifer

I think it was romantic because of the situation. It takes a lot of effort to write an actual letter in today's wired society. A phone call is so impersonal, even with your lover's voice on the other end, but receiving a letter really provides a physical connection to the other person. You really get a sense of them through their handwriting, and a sense of what they were feeling when they wrote it.

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