balefire88

I’ve been musing over certain events in my life, rather than doing any work. I would love to hear all your thoughts on the following questions.


Basic story: Persons A and B are in a relationship. B does something with 3rd party one time.


1. How much blame or responsibility does the 3rd party share? Assume 3rd party was single, but knew that the person they hooked up with was in a relationship.
2. Are there mitigating circumstances for the people involved in the cheating? What if 3rd party and B had been in a relationship before? What if there had been a past history of hooking up between 3rd party and B?
3. What if A and B were on the verge of breaking up anyways?
4. Is there a limit in terms of physical activity you might be willing to forgive if there were extenuating circumstances or you’re in a forgiving mood? For example, 1 light kiss might be extremely forgivable, several nights of sex would invite total wrath.



Basic story: Persons A and B used to be in a relationship. One year later, B does something with 3rd party, who is (was?) very good friends with A.

5. Should 3rd party or B have told A what went down? How soon should they have told A? Should they have waited to see if something serious developed before telling A?
6. What if it became apparent that B did something with 3rd Party, but only to get back at A as a revenge ploy? Would it be more acceptable if A had cheated on B in the first place?
7. Let’s say B then had a fight with A, and told A in a fit of rage that B had hooked up with 3rd Party? Should 3rd Party talk to A? What if 3rd Party and A are far away from each other, but had made vague plans to visit each other in the not too far away future?
8. What if B apologizes to 3rd party for telling A? Should 3rd party continue to hang out with B? What if alcohol is involved, which was a primary reason for their previous last hookup?

If anyone’s curious, I’m obviously involved in both stories. In both cases I am the 3rd party. In the first story, I hooked up with my ex while she was going out with this new guy. It was during a particularly low point in my life, and I was probably not going to see her again. She was crying, I moved in to hold her, and it went from there. She was not particularly strong-willed, so I probably deserve more of the blame for letting it continue. As far as I know, she hasn’t told her new guy, and they are still together and going strong.

The second story is particularly weird because she attempted to get back with my good friend about a week after we hooked up. I thought she was fairly sober when we hooked up, but apparently 2 hours is not enough to get through 3 shots of liquor for her. Apparently, the getting back together thing fell apart, they had a fight, and she told him about what happened. He’s apparently pissed, and she wants to hang out more. On the one hand, she’s clearly much more trouble than she’s wroth. On the other hand, I’ve had a decent dry spell while I was fixing other aspects of my life, so I wasn’t exactly in a position to be picky. She’s definitely one of the more fun girls I’ve ever hung out with, so for now I’ve adopted a wait-and-see approach.

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NoSoup

Forgive me for being blunt, but I don't really think that you're dealing with shades of gray here - you're pretty much an asshole, twice over.

Situation A:
1. How much blame or responsibility does the 3rd party share? Assume 3rd party was single, but knew that the person they hooked up with was in a relationship.

The 3rd Party shares equal amounts of responsibility from the outside observer, probably less than person B here if I were looking at it from person A's point of view. If you knew she was with someone, why did you do it?

2. Are there mitigating circumstances for the people involved in the cheating? What if 3rd party and B had been in a relationship before? What if there had been a past history of hooking up between 3rd party and B?

Not really - it's still cheating. It doesn't really matter what the past history is or whether or not there had been a relationship.

3. What if A and B were on the verge of breaking up anyways?

That's their decision to make - not yours. Keep it in your pants until they say it's finished, don't make the decision for them.

4. Is there a limit in terms of physical activity you might be willing to forgive if there were extenuating circumstances or you’re in a forgiving mood? For example, 1 light kiss might be extremely forgivable, several nights of sex would invite total wrath.

Again, perhaps I'm not really all that forgiving when it comes to cheating, but cheating is cheating is cheating. Certainly, there are varying degrees, and my fiance and I would likely be able to work through a kiss, but pretty much anything after that is a done deal.


Situation B
5. Should 3rd party or B have told A what went down? How soon should they have told A? Should they have waited to see if something serious developed before telling A?

Uh, yeah. Especially if B and 3rd Party claim to be good friends/girlfriend with A. How soon? Well, it should never have happened to begin with, but if it did, I'd suggest telling him as soon as possible so he doesn't waste any more time on person B or 3rd Party. No - they've already ruined it for A and B, there isn't any sense it seeing what becomes of B and 3rd Party to see whether or not A should find out his girlfriend is a cheater and his good friend stabbed him in the back

6. What if it became apparent that B did something with 3rd Party, but only to get back at A as a revenge ploy? Would it be more acceptable if A had cheated on B in the first place?

B can then be considered a wack job. Cheating is never an acceptable revenge ploy - no matter what A had done to begin with. Had A cheated on B initially, they either need to move past it and A needs to forgive (so no revenge is necessary) or if they can't, they need to break it off and grow up.

7. Let’s say B then had a fight with A, and told A in a fit of rage that B had hooked up with 3rd Party? Should 3rd Party talk to A? What if 3rd Party and A are far away from each other, but had made vague plans to visit each other in the not too far away future?

It depends on the relationship between 3rd Party and A. A probably deserves an explanation, and it would perhaps help salvage the relationship between the two - although, in my opinion, there is nothing to be salvaged.

8. What if B apologizes to 3rd party for telling A? Should 3rd party continue to hang out with B? What if alcohol is involved, which was a primary reason for their previous last hookup?

In my opinion B and 3rd party deserve each other. Have at it - as long as B is no longer with A. If they are together still, you shouldn't even be asking this question.

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Just in case you were wondering...

balefire88

I'm a little annoyed at being called an asshole. I know jsut by looking at these stories, most people will be hardpressed to think anything else about me. But try to remember that people's lives are more than just the 2 events they wrote about in an online post. First, let me state that I am by no means a guy who's after nothing but sex or out to wreck people's relationships or friendships. I'm a virgin, have had 1 casual relationship, and 1 serious relationship. The one hook-up (story 2) I had, I only went as far as second base that night, and I was the one to slow down.

P.S. I'm out of college, so I can easily say compared to TFP, I've probably dated very little.

P.S #2. I might be miffed at your tone and thinking, but I still appreciate that you posted.


Let's see, I probably didn't give enough backstory here. This was my long, and one and only serious relationship. She was the only girl I'd ever loved, if that's what it was. She broke up with me, so yeah, I was fairly crushed then, and still had feelings for her. She also had not lost all feelings for me either. I was leaving college for good, so there were a whole mix of emotions that boiled over. So yeah, that's why it happened. Does that make it right? Probably not. That's why I posted to hear thoughts about it.



Yeah, overall it's still cheating. I think the relationship is a somewhat mitigating factor to me and my conscience. Maybe it shouldn't be. Maybe I should tell myself there's no excuse for what I did and that I should ensure it never happens again.


Actually, I had no idea about the status of their relationship. I wasn't trying to break them up. This was just a purely theoretical question. And yeah, I probably should have kept it in my pants, atleast figuratively. Easier said than done though.

No contest. I used to believe the same thing.




Situation B

Ok, this definitely needs clarification. The relationship between A and B happened over a year ago. They now live on opposite coasts, and from what info I had, I thought it was a closed chapter in their lives. I did not RUIN it for A and B because it was repeatedly drummed into me that there was nothing to ruin. She flirted back, said she was single, and told me A had cheated on her and that she hated him. Are you stating that once your friend dates someone, they are forever untouchable?

I only asked this question for the sake of the theoretical long term relationshiop factor. I figure if you're going to date the ex of a friend, then better he find out from you rather than through some gossip.

She didn't cheat. They were not together, and had not been together for over a year. If it was revenge, it was just to say to A, "Screw you, I made out with one of your friends. Hope you enjoy thinking about that!" However, I do know now that there is some continuing saga that won't end. If I had definitely known that before, I would not have touched this situation with a 10-mile pole.


A and I have been pretty good friends for the last 8-9 years. We've never been incredibly close, but if we're ever in the same area, we've hung out a lot.

Ok, I really stated this question poorly. Now that I know B is pretty much carrying several tons of baggage, I don't want to hang out with her. However, some of my other friends invited her to a farewell party this weekend that will involve tons of alcohol. Now, I'm just worried about a reprisal. My ability to think coherently when I drink a lot is non-existant. Not going to the party, or not drinking is basically not an option because it is one of my best friends that is leaving. So far, I think I'm going to tell one of my friends who drinks less to make sure she is kepty away from me.

Anyways, hope that explains things a little bit better.

__________________
"Today is the beginning of the rest of your life."

analog

MOD NOTE:

Yeah, please don't call people assholes. Even if you really think they deserve it.

Thanks.

- analog.

savvypup

You're definitely not totally faultless in either situation, but she was the one in the committed relationship - not you. Being mutual friends certainly doesn't help. You've got a conscientious - what is it telling you.

I don't think she had much respect for anyone. Sounds like she wants what she wants and doesn't matter who gets hurt.

To may way one thinking ............ in the first instance, if it truly was a mistake hooking up, and she felt she 'needed' that but felt truly guilty, then I wouldn't inform the boyfriend. Once can be forgiven and everyone deserves a second chance. The fact that she did spill her guts in a fit of rage may imply that she was just waiting for the right time to stick it to him - premeditated. Surely there's another fun gal to hang out with. You sound like a stepping stone for her.

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ciao bella!

NoSoup

Balefire -

First, let me apologize. I was out of line when I called you an asshole.

However, I wasn't trying to imply that your entire life is generally worthless or anyting like that, but specifically with these two situations I imagined that there were much better ways to handle it.

Also, miscommunication is probably a part of it. Around here, "hooking up" typically means sex. My apologies again for just assuming.

At any rate, feel free to call me an asshole whenever you like - I'm sure I deserve it

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

balefire88

No apologies necessary. I was annoyed for a moment then, but I figured I wrote too many things poorly and probably did come off as a jackass. And Helly yeah, I coulda handled the situations better. Hopefully, I'll learn from my mistakes.

Instead of calling you an asshole, how about we kiss & make up?

__________________
"Today is the beginning of the rest of your life."

NoSoup

Well, we could, but it doesn't seem like you do that until we are in some type of crazy love triangle situation first....



Oh, I crack myself up.

Just kidding - sounds good

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

analog

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

lmao

Crack

this thread gives me warm fuzzies, except for the whole cheating thing and the psudo algebra... Person A.. Person B, 3rd Party?

Come to think of it, this 'warm fuzzie' might be from that sandwich last night... bread should not have little green 'farms' on it.. even if you do pick those parts off.

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Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex.

~Halx

balefire88

Well there seems to be you, your fiance, me ... and to make this interesting, we could probably include a monkey or two.




Nah... *bows*

I am simply not worthy.

Heh. I'm actually not sure why I went with the whole theoretical/mathematical description with unknown parties, then proceeded to name myself at the end anyways. Maybe because I'm an engineer and I was at work.

And yeah, I think green famrs = unknown quantity in algebra. You might have gotten superpowers from it. Check by attempting to fly.

Disclaimer: Lonely Engineer not liable for results.

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"Today is the beginning of the rest of your life."

Jinn

1. How much blame or responsibility does the 3rd party share? Assume 3rd party was single, but knew that the person they hooked up with was in a relationship.

Absolutely none. This is something unfortunately not many people understand. Person A and Person B were the only people with "agreements" to be exclusive. If one of them strays, it not is not because of the wiles of the newcomer or any convincing they did. It rests absolutely on the person who has commited to NOT cheat. If B has decided to fuck her best friend, it is B's fault for breaking the agreement. Unless Third Party had an agreement with BOTH A and B, he has no moral obligation. He is not party to the agreement. If my girlfriend were to hypothetically go and ravage some stranger, I have no right to be mad at the stranger. He had no agreement with HER OR ME to avoid having sex with her. The only one who had that agreement is my girlfriend, and she would be on the recieving end of the ire.

2, 3, and 4 are all irrelevant. Although, it sounds entirely like you're trying to defend an action you yourself feel is wrong. If YOU think what you did is wrong, making excuses for us to agree with won't help you a darned bit.

Put simply (A+B) + C. If at any time it becomes A + (B+C) or B + (A+C) it is the intial parenthesis occupants who are at fault, not the additional operand.

Frankly, I don't think people trust their SOs enough. Why in the world would you be mad at someone if he had sex with your girlfriend? She is the one you trust to not break the relationship. If you're really so insecure that your girlfriend can be "stolen" by another guy, then you're not worth much.

Then again, we know where being frank gets me.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Average_Joe

This scenario intrigues me a little bit. I was in a similar situation a while back, and it got me thinking. How much time is acceptable between A + B's breakup for 3rd party to get try with B? I know there are some unofficial "man laws" out there that forbid a guy from dating his buddy's ex, but if A has moved on, shouldn't B be fair game? If you really are good friends with A, then perhaps you can be open about your attraction and desire to be with B, and clear the way, but if A says" no way", do you have to abide by that?

balefire88

Ok, I totally agreee with everything you're saying here. I've thought about things for a while, and reached very similar thoughts. However, I still feel like I did an accomplice to something bad. Your argument is completely logical, and all I can say is I'm probably being irrational about it, but I can't seem to change how I feel right now.


Let's say a person were brought up in a very conservative religious home. One day, he discovered masturbation. He enjoyed it, but according to the values he's been brought up with, it's an evil sin. (Isn't this what Catholics believe) Now, you and I probably both believe that masturbation is not a sin, and that he can do it without feeling any guilt. Will he automatically feel no guilt? Probably not. Will he feel guilt forever? Maybe. Depends on the person. But, if he were to come to the conclusion that God doesn't exist, he will probably realize that he shouldn't feel guilty about masturbation.

Hope that analogy made sense. I had very black & white beliefs on cheating. I believed that the 3rd party was just as responsible. Then I became the 3rd party. Now, would I lose respect for someone that I knew for sure went around trying to wreck relationships? Yes. Would I lose respect for someone who, under extenuating circumstances, did something similar to what I did? I have before, but I probably wouldn't now. Does this seem like a cop-out/excuse so that I don't have to feel bad about what I did? Sure as hell would look like to it to anyone else. Do I feel that it is just my belief system changing? Yes.

I don't think A can say no way for good. Especially if you think there's a shot for something serious. Waiting a little while will probably give both parties a chance to get over each other, and leave things open for a real relationship. Obviously depends on how open and understanding Person A is. Letting Person A know would be good so he doesn't find out through gossip.

Disclaimer: Highly subjective answers.

__________________
"Today is the beginning of the rest of your life."

Jinn

An even simpler realization for our masturbating Catholic is to come to the realization that he makes decisions for himself. He can decide whether he feels the same way catholics do about God and masturbation or not. Should he disagree, he is the only moral "power" to which he should feel guilty to. If he truly decides that his own moral relativism allows him to masturbate and still worship Jesus, then no guilt would follow. Moral independence means understanding that it is only your OWN perception of what is right and wrong that makes you feel guilty. Or to engage in activities that others find morally devoid.

This is where the "walk a mile in their shoe" analogy is ever-so-applicable. Many people change their belief about the relativistic morality of something once they've done it themselves. Personally, I held the belief that drinking alcohol was a waste and that anyone who did so was a horrible alcoholic. Then I turned 18. Things change when you realize that there CAN be reasons for activities that you did not previously percieve. I'm not saying that cheating is a good thing, but its certainly natural for your perception of cheaters to change once you've become one.


Frankly, I think you need to dispose of the idea that you had extenuating circumstances. Everyone who is a party to cheating thinks that they are somehow justified. Their spouse didn't "treat them right," etc, etc. At this point I don't think you've got room to say you've got "extenuating circumstances."

I'm not attempting to be harsh, but you did partake in something that you felt at the time was wrong to do. I think you can use this as a learning experience - either you decide that it's morally acceptable to you, or you decide that it's morally unacceptable and avoid doing it in the future - you've got a perfect test case of how it will make you feel already under your belt. It's further motivation to not do it in the future, should you decide it's morally unpermissable.

If I were you, I'd go with "morally permissable" but avoid-if-possible. You now know how it makes you feel, so you'll avoid it quite durably.


Truly, only your opinion of what is occuring matters. No one can know why you're doing something other than yourself. I've recently had "belief system changes" that could easily appear to be excuses. Alas, I know they are not. It's up to you to decide.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel