11-17-2004, 05:23 PM | #81 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Right here
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From here, I echo roachboy. Quote:
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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11-17-2004, 05:51 PM | #82 (permalink) | ||
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I think it was a heinous crime. I repels me. Why do you associate one's political beliefs as associated with whether someone condemn Hassan's murder? I find that short-sighted and downright insulting. For what it's worth, the Arab media is condemning the murder. Even the American arch-enemy al-Zarkawi called for her release. Quote:
Mr Mephisto Last edited by Mephisto2; 11-17-2004 at 05:55 PM.. |
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11-17-2004, 05:56 PM | #83 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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I find myself wondering why the objective Arab media hasn't aired the execution, I suppose they would have to interrupt their non-stop airing of the marine tape.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
11-17-2004, 06:03 PM | #84 (permalink) | |
Getting Medieval on your ass
Location: 13th century Europe
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11-17-2004, 06:15 PM | #85 (permalink) | |
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Feel free to watch this BBC piece on just this topic. EDIT: Link didn't work. Just go to news.bbc.co.uk and it's on the bottom right. Mr Mephisto Last edited by Mephisto2; 11-17-2004 at 06:20 PM.. |
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11-17-2004, 08:57 PM | #87 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-17-2004, 09:54 PM | #88 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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I'm late to this, so sorry if I rehash. I just wanted to say something (vent) about the Kevin Sites video and the surreal fallout:
Along with Abu Ghraib, another propaganda victory for the Bad Guys. Another 10,000,000 gallons of gasoline dumped onto the anti-American fire. Another 10 years at least added to this conflict most likely. Another disgraceful American media moment. Any benefit gained by the Fallujah Campaign (which was, militarily speaking, a success) will most likely be nullified by this one video. Iraqi elections in one month? There's going to be a bloodbath. Its like whack-a-mole now. It just boggles my mind. I cannot conceive of why the American media would broadcast this bullshit worldwide. FOR WHAT PURPOSE!?!? Goddamn fanatical insurgents fighting from mosques getting sympathy from around the world now. Where in the fuck is the disconnect between the US Government, the US Media & the US Military??? Who the fuck is running the show here!?!? Its one step forward-2 steps back madness. My faith is fading fast..... |
11-17-2004, 10:23 PM | #89 (permalink) | |
Loser
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11-17-2004, 11:12 PM | #90 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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If that pisses you off, you should see what the independent (non-embedded) reporters are saying, especially through channels that are not filtered via the military first. I think I understand the intention behind your statement, but I would rather see as much information as possible. I don't appreciate the military sanitizing my news. I don't believe it's appropriate to snatch Iraqi reports out of protected areas (reportedly not being released or allowed to have contact). I also don't like our independent reporters' lives endangered or their cameras blocked from reporting anything. I want as much information before myself before I make a choice concerning issues I take an interest in.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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11-17-2004, 11:34 PM | #91 (permalink) | |
Banned
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do so than to do the hard work of sifting out the propaganda and the manipulation of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, and others who created the situation in Iraq, with the support of so many of our countrymen who chose to stay blissfully misinformed as their "war president", in response to the 9/11 attacks, launched our "payback" at the wrong people in the wrong country. What are you willing to fight and die for, anyway? The right to receive truthful and fact filled news reports from a free press, or filtered reports from government censors? Is the truth such a minor thing that you are willing to encourage reporters from U.S. based news media to withhold or distort reports that, in your opinion, make the U.S. or it's military "look bad" to the prying eyes of foreigners? If that is what you wish for, you also are willing to give up the right to monitor the conduct of our political leaders in order to hold them accountable, and you give up your own access to accurate, fact filled reporting. To me, that is un-American rhetoric. You appear to have lost all perspective of why we fight, who we should fight, and what we fight to preserve and protect, just like our criminal president and most of his supporters......... Last edited by host; 11-17-2004 at 11:48 PM.. |
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11-18-2004, 12:37 AM | #92 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: In transit
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Remember, wherever you go... there you are. Last edited by sprocket; 11-18-2004 at 12:54 AM.. |
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11-18-2004, 12:55 AM | #94 (permalink) | |
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I don't pretend to understand how you think, as you shouldn't pretend to understand how I think. But I base my opinions on the history of your statements. The murder of the injured Iraqi insurgent was a crime. The murder of Hassan was also a crime, and even more terrible in my mind. But when you make statements like "shooting was too good for him" when referring to an injured and probably dying man (insurgent or not), then that's prejudiced. In fact, it's excusing a capital offence (as far as I know, murder whilst under military command or the UMCJ is a capital offence?). Mr Mephisto |
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11-18-2004, 01:19 AM | #95 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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11-18-2004, 01:25 AM | #97 (permalink) | |
undead
Location: Duisburg, Germany
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If a terrorist kills a civilian I'm not shocked, it is terrible crime, but that is what terrorists do. If a soldier kills a civilian I'm shocked since soldiers are not supposed to do that
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"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein |
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11-18-2004, 01:30 AM | #98 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Padded Playhouse
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Look, I am not 'for' or against the marine- being guilty or not, i like to remind people that YOU have the benifit of watching the clip in the comfort of your SAFE home. He was there, being shot at, IEDs in corpses, blowing up when people move them, being shot at by Iraqis waving white flags to get Marines out in the open, etc. Before ANYONE condems him, think what the events leading up to it were like. Put yourself in his shoes, remember what happened in the days leading up to it, like I said above, IEDs in corpses, etc, and THEN you might see why he did what he did. Honestly, if your in that room, and what you think is a coprse moves- you would instintivly shoot it- and dont dare deny that- you would... so would everyone else. Let the investigation take its course, but dont condem the man because you saw a clip, a snapshop, of what he was doing and had been through. Im not saying he made the right decision, im not saying he made the wrong one, im just saying he did what everyone else woulda done instictivly. He didnt shoot out of hate or malice- he did it out of instinct, and everyone ignores that fact |
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11-18-2004, 01:40 AM | #99 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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He didn't do it instinctively. Humans don't have instincts, for one thing. Or, if you want to get all caught up in minuetia (?), then socialization and reasonable thought processes govern one's actions rather than whatever residual instincts we might have. He made a choice, and it was the wrong choice. We can judge that by its ramifications. We know the person did not have an explosive device on him. We also know the wounded were left in the Mosque for 24 hours prior (which is also wrong and I believe illegal). He may have done it out of habit, training, or fear, but not out of instinct. Besides, what instinct do humans have to shoot other humans? Where would you trace that to? And I've been meaning to say this about the use of Hassan in this thread: It's despicable for Ustwo to even have brought her up in the fashion he did. I never saw one peep of a call for silence in her memory. And it's remarkably callous to use her name to make a political point. In fact, his actions mirrored those of the terrorists in my view--they, too, used her to make a political point.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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11-18-2004, 06:26 AM | #100 (permalink) | ||
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Another thing. Just because it is out of sight, it is not out of mind. A US soldier is on trial right now for murdering an iraqi and no one caught that incedent on tape. Quote:
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11-18-2004, 07:09 AM | #101 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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stevo22 is absolutely correct. Its really as clear as day.
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Please stop with the moral equivalency to terrorists. All these semantics about whether this was or wasn't a war crime are insane. What happened to that motherfucker in the mosque is no war crime. What do you think he was doing in that mosque in the middle of a warzone? Praying? Sweeping the floor? Watering the plants? Dusting off Qurans? Is it instead possible he was actually fighting and trying to kill US troops? Over 1100 insurgent killer rats were exterminated in this campaign; should we now have lawyers with briefcases and flak jacks embedded with the troops to verify the legality of each and every casualty? Madness. The guy was an enemy combatant, plain and simple. He had weeks of warning to lay down his arms and stop fighting. He chose to stay and fight. He was killed in combat. It doesn't matter how. This is War. End of story. |
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11-18-2004, 08:01 AM | #102 (permalink) | |
undead
Location: Duisburg, Germany
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are you actually reading some of the articles? he was left there by the mariens a day before! already captured and injured
__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein |
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11-18-2004, 08:25 AM | #103 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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i continue to find it strange that the question of this campaign has been diverted onto this footage. while i agree that it appears to be a war crime, that appearance comes with all the limits/problems of any footage--it isolates particular sequences of events from what preceded and conditioned them, so you are in a position of not really knowing what you are seeing even as it unfolds in front of you.
remember the rodney king case? the defense argument that king adopted "the bullet posture" as he was getting the shit beat out of him? that "bullet posture" was read a threatening--only possible in the context of film-world. the bigger question is about the campaign itself--what i posted above remains unaddressed here and a problem insofar as making judgements from press accounts is concerned. but the "battle of fallujah" seems to have been less than a ringing success, insofar as "crushing the insurgents" is concerned....
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
11-18-2004, 09:17 AM | #104 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
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11-18-2004, 09:22 AM | #106 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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The problem now is ENTIRLEY a political one; proper governance and security of the city are the main questions. I think the Americans could learn a thing or two from the British about diplomacy, civil affairs, and post-combat operations, where they have failed miserably in my opinion. The Americans have continually shown their adeptness at snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory. Like I said, its one step forward, 2 steps back. If they continue to be unable to consolidate their military victories into political progress, then civil war is inevitable. Last edited by powerclown; 11-18-2004 at 10:01 AM.. |
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11-18-2004, 10:26 AM | #108 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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only problem with your interpretation, powerclown, is that it seems that the major force of insurgents that was anticipated was not really there, not in anything like the force that was marketed. so, it that's true, then......
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
11-18-2004, 04:39 PM | #109 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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Again, the solution isn't military, obviously. These bugs can be squashed wherever, whenever. The fight is for the approval of the Iraqi citizens. They don't seem to know what the hell they want, and completely unneccesary garbage (probably aired with the approval of anti-Bush TV execs) like the Sites video only makes things worse, or better, depending how you look at it. |
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11-18-2004, 05:06 PM | #110 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: California
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If some over 18 wants to fight, then he should be able to make that choice. But I also believe that a person cannot be forced to fight, i.e. a draft, even in defending his country. If he doesn't want to fight, and he ends up losing his liberty, then he should simply receive the consequences of his actions (or inaction).
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11-18-2004, 05:56 PM | #112 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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You sound like you swallowed the president. He accused kerry of being stuck in a pre-9/11 mindset, yet he was the one stuck in the past. His inability to connect the realities of fighting a decentralized enemy plays out in the media, which amplifies his message, and settles in your mind as an objective fact. The reason why both Iraq and Fallujah were pieces of cake are because there is no centralized command. There is no stronghold. The fighters melted away again. That is failure in this type of war. Especially if you hinge victory on the notion of winning hearts and minds of people. Tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians are being killed by direct military action and indirectly due to the disruption to the cities. These events in no rational universe equate to victory. What exactly is going on with the interim goverrnment? The top people are resigning and elections are nowhere on the horizon--aren't they supposed to be happening in a few weeks? It's sickening that those people's offices are being raided and the people disappearing and harassed by our government (oh, scratch that, by other governments that we fly them to).
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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11-19-2004, 12:25 AM | #113 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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You want to know who the mindless killers of Iraqi civilians are? The fanatical Iraqi suicide bombers who kill 20-30-40 fellow Iraqis at a time every other day by driving carbombs into crowds of civilians. I think you'd find it quite enlightening to read about the extent to which US forces go out of their way to avoid civilians casualties. I know I did. As far as elections go, they're on schedule. If you are referring to Chalabi as the one whose house was raided, well too bad for him, the rumor was that he was running his mouth to the Iranians, so now he's out and Allawi is Interim Prime Minister. Last edited by powerclown; 11-19-2004 at 12:29 AM.. |
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11-19-2004, 12:41 AM | #114 (permalink) | ||
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So far from the original topic, but still a lively exchange of ideas....
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in Lincoln's premise that we cannot permit the dead who sacrificed their all to preserve their country, to ever "die in vain", what do we say to the families of the dead and the wounded in Bushco's "war of choice", and, a more pressing matter, to those Bush and Rumsfeld order to fight "to bring freedom to the Iraqi people", in the coming days.....and months.....and years...... What the fuck are our leaders ordering are troops to fight and die for? Is another U.S. casualty in Iraq "absolutely necessary", or worth the cost? God bless the fallen U.S. soldiers and the Iraqi non-combatants in Fallujah. Investigate and prosecute Americans and foreigners who conspire to wage <br>illegal military acts of aggression, and who commit war crimes. If our appointed leaders do not act legally, morally, and forthrightly, as citizens, we have no obligation to support them in their immorality, deceipt, and aggression. Supporting these leaders is not patriotic. Protesting and resisting their criminality is the highest form of patriotism that an American can aspire to, and it is the only way to insure that our troops do not die in vain. Last edited by host; 11-19-2004 at 12:52 AM.. |
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11-19-2004, 12:50 AM | #115 (permalink) | |
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11-19-2004, 01:01 AM | #116 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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too much discomfort to sleep. I wish that you could recognize what is so obvious to me. The Bushco have sent our wonderful, dedicated troops to fight, suffer, and sometimes die in a place that is not absolutely necessary for them to be fighting in, and for reasons that are less justified each time they morph and wilt in the face of the facts. Quote:
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11-19-2004, 01:10 AM | #117 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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W lies about the reason for war resulting in 1000's of deaths and wounded and billions of our tax dollars going over there, and if anyone says anything against him it's treason. Sorry I grew up in an America where IT IS MY RIGHT to call the president a liar and to ask for or support those asking for a special counsel investigation. It is also my right to question a war feeding Haliburton's wallet. It is noone's right to attack me for saying what I believe to be true. You can attack my ideas and debate what I say, but no man has the right to attack and condemn another as a traitor or "unpatriotic" for exercising his rights. That would be very Fascist or Communistic....
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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11-19-2004, 02:05 AM | #118 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: BFE
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I'd like to point out one little thing to you. Once upon a time, there were a couple who lived in the US, and thought that "freedom of speech" and "freedom of conscience" made it OK for them to pass highly classified information to the Soviet Union, so, being good little leftists, they did so, putting the lives of all Americans in danger. They got caught. Oops. Care to wager a guess as to what happened to them? Think "gas chamber". And you know what? They deserved it, because their actions put us ALL at risk. Some leftists today need to have the same exact thing happen to them....for instance, people like these: should have been arrested, tried for giving aid and comfort to the enemy along with sedition, and upon their conviction, they should have been executed after due process of law. Or, remember that guy who rolled the grenade into his unit's CP right before GulfwarII started? He's another candidate for an involuntary overdose. |
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11-19-2004, 02:40 AM | #119 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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Yes, we are all aware of your murderous fantasies by now.
The difference between your version of events with the facts is that physically threatening someone is not an appropriate method to convey dissent. Intimidating or even threatening someone, as the Dixie Chics were, is not expressing ideas, it's barbaric and completely expected from someone like you who prefers violence to discussion. Usually you quip back with war is peace or peace through war or something like that.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
11-19-2004, 06:50 AM | #120 (permalink) | |
Banned
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asked, bill, casualites, fallujah, michael, moore, oreilly |
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