Fallujah Casualites: Michael Moore asked Bill O'Reilly
 

last summer if O'Reilly would send his own child to fight in Fallujah to "retake"
that city from "insurgents". Now that we know the "price" of our current
"progress" in Fallujah is 38 dead American troops and 275 wounded, and......
in view of the current conditions in Iraq, would you volunteer to go there to
fight for the "liberation" of another Iraqi city, or urge a member of your own
family to do so? Why, or why not?

I'd send a child of george bush to honorably serve our great country in a second.

O'Reilly was about to answer but he got a call from his producer that he had to take in private, with some kleenex, and some lube. Why would we send his children and not Bill himself? I'm not sure Bill could pass the mental health requirements for enlistees though, seeing as he's a pathological liar.

It's too bad that the responses have to start out snide.

To the point,

If a child of mine chose a military career, that would be fine with me.

hmmmm....38 dead americans, as compared to 1200 dead insurgents. That's one dead US troop for every 38 dead insurgents. Compare this with 2700 dead Americans and 19 dead insurgents, and Fallujah is a screaming bargain for the US.

I would, in fact, encourage some of my family members to join the military if they were considering it, because some of them are lazy bums that need some direction in their lives. Instead of wasting away their youth, they could help the world by serving our country. Things are most definitely not going as planned in Iraq, but that doesn't mean that we should just give up. Would I go over there?...no way, but that's because I know that I have something different to offer--I can be a supernerd. Many people--such as Bill O'Reilly--have different duties as Americans than those called to serve in the military.

What I'm saying is, for some people, despite the fact that we're in a time of war, the rewards outweigh the risks of being in the military.

You still believe that 9-11 involved Iraq? I weep for this nation.

What's the problem? I was serious.

I'd fight a justified war, and as for what i'd encourage my hypothetical children to do, i'd encourage them to think critically and make up their own damn mind.

I want to hear what ustwo would have to say, being a new daddy and all.

coppertop, nope. I also don't think that most of the insurgents in Fallujah are Iraqis either.

Then why the "19 dead insurgents?"

they're from the same pool....muslims willing to die to try and make their political point. It's a lot easier and safer for America to kill them on the ground in Iraq than to try and kill them on airplanes in the US.

We need to provide a place for people who "will die for Jihad" to go so that we can help them realize their dreams.

And I'm sure they feel the same about Americans who "will die for Bush." Glad to see we've evolved as a culture. :rolleyes:

most people in the US military don't sign up intending to die. They aren't promised 72 virgins if they die.

If those sound like such good odds then post your info, I'll help you get in touch with some recruiters. They'll be friendly, I promise.

loco, been there, done that, and am too old now.

when you think about killing those insurgents piecemeal, arresting them individually or letting them slide in and out of iraq at will over the next 10 years... the assault on fallujah is a resounding success. now that we're there... we certainly did the right thing by killing so many while using our conventional means of force as opposed to doing it by policing methods.

38 dead is still a somber figure but if you consider how many would have probably died during the rest of our time in iraq by those same insurgent fighters... we did a good thing, or at least a prudent thing.

i don't think many realize how incredibly well the fallujah assault went. you're facing a determined extremist enemy who:
1) knows the city and terrain well.
2) have had months to set up booby traps and barricades
3) are fighting from their chosen entrenched positions
4) have the advantage of defending an urban environment while the opposing force is mindful of civilian and collateral damage.

all that and the KIA casualty rate was over 42:1 in our favor. we should thank the lord it wasn't worse than it was... urban combat can get very messy. this was truly an ass kicking of the finest variety.

I think that's just the point, and it's what makes Moore's antics so moot. It's a volunteer/professional military. Adults sign up of their own free will to submit themselves to the orders given them.

Moore's attempt to portray it as only the children of the poor dying, is not only propagandist, but irrelevant because of this.

Asking a parent if they would send their child to war is just silly grandstanding, because the answer is almost invariably going to be no, regardless of the person asked, or the war fought. What parent would ever answer yes?

There are plenty of military conflicts I thought were "right", Bosnia, Somalia, Rwanda (eventually), but if someone asked me if I'd "send" my child there...hell no I wouldn't. But I'd support him or her if they chose a military life.

I also think that some on the left think that a military career is somehow shameful, or a least somehow below them or their offspring (hence Moore and his bogus "getting killed for whitey" schtick.)

What they fail to realize is that most on the right of center don't feel that way at all.

Furthermore, once a child reaches the legal age of 18 (wich is required to join the military) a parent has no right to send their child anywhere against their free will.

I have served in the military and would be proud if any of my children (had I any) wanted to serve. BUT I would not be very happy with their decision to go and die not for honor or our country but for Haliburton's wallet. I would not be happy with that decision but I would honor and respect their choice in life.

My father didn't want me to join the Navy, but when I graduated bootcamp it was one of his proudest moments. As one of mine would be to see a child of mine graduate.

There's nothing shameful about a military career. That some poor young men are left with no option but to sign up for a four-year hitch and end up getting killed is a shame.

"Born down in a dead man's town
The first kick I took was when I hit the ground
You end up like a dog that's been beat too much
Till you spend half your life just covering up.

Born in the USA

Got in a little hometown jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man."

You know, you would think the men were being forced into combat at gun point like it was the Russians at Stalingrad.

The concept being that the military is filled with poor saps who had no choice but to join and are now being forced into combat is as big as myth as the concept that combat troops are disproportionately minority in nature.

You might not be the only one. I saw yesterday that the Marines have met their recruiting quota, and apparently the Navy and Air Force are on track as well.

It doesn't strike you as odd how al Quaeda is all over Iraq? Beheading people, etc.?

Even if you want to claim the al Quaeda members went there after we arrived, isn't it better to have them there than in the US?

By the way, we've neutralized 75% of its members.

Yeah, but someone forgot to tell them it's 72 virgin camels.

If it's not too personal, when did you go to boot camp, and which one was it?

Only asking because I was stationed at a Navy boot camp for awhile.

They are there and here. I don't see why this either-or fallacy gets floated around and somehow retains currency. Possibly some of it has to do with the fact that the people most spouting it are not anywhere near a place that is most affected by immigration and terrorism.

For example, our nighly news has been running reports on the tens of thousands of suspected terrorists posing as mexicans and streaming across the border. and that doesn't even touch on the people already living here. damn, I would think that the military people here would be more conscious of how cells operate--after all, we fucking taught them how to organize into cells.

Nor the second notion: we neutralized 75% of al qaeda? no, the best I'd give you is that the US got 75% of the names it listed as those of interest.

How exactly do you figure out what percentage you've got if you don't know who is involved? That is, the government would need to know how many people were in al qaeda before you could even begin to believe it had gotten any percentage of them.

Odd? Not at all. They're there because there are a shitload of reporters there with a) heads to be removed and b) cameras to report it (among other nasty things that happen there) to the world. Not to mention US soldiers, whom I am sure they'd also love to get ahold of.

And about me "claiming" that they went there after we arrived, can you really be serious? You really think they were roaming about Iraq doing these things before the US arrived? Hussein and AQ had no more connection than Bush and AQ. That's been established already. bin Laden hated Hussein for him bringing US troops to the Gulf and Saudi Arabia (you know, his homeland) back in the first Gulf War.

And like it was mentioned before, how exactly did you come across the 75% figure? And again, knowing that would necessitate knowing the number of AQ in total. I find it odd that that information would be known to anyone, AQ included. That's not the way terrorists organizations work.

War Crimes in Fallujah

Nother Story

I'm not trying to discredit your entire argument ala strawman. I definately think we're killing a bunch of 'insurgents', though I hardly believe our justification for these attacks is right and true. However, I would be very careful on believing Pentagon numbers for 'insurgent deaths.' Widespread? Perhaps, perhaps not. I'm not even going to pretend to act like I know the details nor stories of Iraqi civilians.

There is a reason why you can't join the military until you are 18. You are old enough to make up your own mind. You sign the papers of commitment. Bill O'reilly wouldn't sign papers to send his kid to war his kid would sign the papers. IT is a great spin by a complete bastard. Has he taken down his completly disrespectful website yet with the pictures of deceased soilders?

Your opinion is that the invasion of Iraq in March, 2003, was "absolutely necessary"? The <a href="http://www.house.gov/skelton/pr031029attachment.htm">hometowns</a> that the nearly 1200 dead American troops
come from belies the accuracy of the reference in the quote below.

Why are you linking Moore to some racial reference? Moore is obviously
projecting the message that the agenda of the wealthy, powerful, and
opportunity rich class in this country includes a state of perpetual fear
driven warfare that disproportionally recruits the poor, disadvantaged youth, who grow up in areas of the country where job opportunities, other than in the military, have vanished, largely as a result of the investment and political decisions of the ruling class. Moore protests the corrupt, unpatriotic, exploitive nature of the ruling class. They order our troops into harms way to achieve goals that, they themselves would never risk their own lives or those of their own children to achieve. Are you more angry about Moore's message, or his success in projecting it? Did you watch Farenheit 9/11?

If you disagree, tell me where you think I have misinterpreted Moore's
message.

Ahh finally someone else who gets it. Most of our soldiers support what they are doing, and Michael Moore doesn't realize that. Nevermind the fact that no one decides to 'sign someone else up'. You know, or should rather, what your getting into- acting like 'we' have betrayed our soldiers? How? By sending soldiers to war- thats their job, and their duty- to follow orders from the elected Commander in Chief.

By bring race into it- most people just tone out. What would we have America do? If its a 'fact' that blacks or other minorities cannot afford to go to college other than by joing the military, what are we to do about it? Is that America's leaders fault?

I'm wondering if there would be an investigation if this dumb soldier hadn't killed the man in front of a camera.

Moore realizes that there is overwhelming economic power and the political
influence that it can buy, earnestly and methodically redistributing the
most of this nation's wealth into the hands of fewer and fewer entities......
......to the point that this transfer of wealth has been so damaging and
so successful, that a military draft is not even needed to "sign up" the
new recruits who are destined to be tomorrow's Bush regime's casualties.
In 1970, the wealthiest one percent controlled 13 percent of the nation's
total wealth. 3o years, later, the top one percent control 33 percent of the
wealth, and the wealthy are granted huge tax cuts, elimination of inheritance
taxes which were in effect when the top tier managed to shift an additional
20 percent of the total wealth of this nation from the rest of us, to.......
themselves......and our "all volunteer" military gets sent to fight "pre-emptive"
wars of choice. Most of America does not comprehend what the economic
impact studies and the wealth distribution trend data reveals.....and you
are convinced that 18 year old recruits can discern opportunity from
exploitation that has been ordained by the agenda of the political class's
wealthiest benefactors?
Read the conclusions of the study "Wal-Mart and County-Wide Poverty"
linked in bold type in the box below (On or about page 12)

OK, let's say we only killed 600 insurgents. Or even 300 insurgents. It's still a bargain for us.

Your argument is BS, because it is not supported by the facts, It is required,
though, to rationalize our disfunctional, national leadership and it's criminal
military aggression.

I think the "flypaper" strategy/theory is disgusting. "We're fighting them over there en-masse so we don't have to fight them 19 at a time as they hijack planes"

Iraq had nothing to do with anti-american terrorism. That has been established. It's so appalling that there are those who advoctate flypaper being performed in a country that wasn't threatening us. What about the millions of Iraqi's who have their lives disrupted and threatened now because we want to draw all the "terrorists" in to one place to fight them. Why not draw them to Texas instead of a country that has never had anything to do with these terrorists?
Also, you don't beat an organization like Al Qaeda with the "flypaper strategy" The organization is organic, and our actions like this help fuel their recruitment drive. We can draw them to a place all we want, but the result will be an unknown limit to recruiting more willing fighters.

If you are under 35, male, in the US, and pro war join.

My brother is in the army I ate dinner with one of the men from the "Letters Home" program, a good friend of my brothers.

Arguments that count lives like curency sicken me.

Who are you to call this soldier dumb? Shame on You! Whether you are against the war or not doesn't give you the right to slander an American Hero. Its a war. He had been shot in the face the day before and was right back out there on the battlefield killing the insurgents. In a war it comes down to split-second, life or death decisions. At the same time that video was shot, just one block away a booby-trapped body of a dead insurgent blew up, injuring 5 U.S. troops and killing one.

How can you expect a US soldier to do anything less than kill an insurgent who is faking dead when the possibility of that insurgent detonating a booby-trapped body or pulling the pin out of a grenade that is hidden under his clothes exists? It is the US troops who are trying to fight by the rules of "international law".

You never hear the international red cross or amnesty international criticize the insurgents from fighting from mosques, pretending to surrender and then opening fire? That is what outrages me.

It is not this marine who is dumb, but the self serving camera man who was thinking more of himself and a pulitzer prize than the effect this video would have. He knows the soldier was in the right but that didn't matter to him.

Perhaps this is a topic for another discussion. I'll see you there.

not sure, because I've heard a lot of strange vies here, but I hope you just tried to be ironic...