11-15-2004, 11:19 AM | #1 (permalink) | ||
Banned
|
Fallujah Casualites: Michael Moore asked Bill O'Reilly
last summer if O'Reilly would send his own child to fight in Fallujah to "retake"
that city from "insurgents". Now that we know the "price" of our current "progress" in Fallujah is 38 dead American troops and 275 wounded, and...... in view of the current conditions in Iraq, would you volunteer to go there to fight for the "liberation" of another Iraqi city, or urge a member of your own family to do so? Why, or why not? Quote:
Quote:
|
||
11-15-2004, 12:28 PM | #3 (permalink) |
is awesome!
|
O'Reilly was about to answer but he got a call from his producer that he had to take in private, with some kleenex, and some lube. Why would we send his children and not Bill himself? I'm not sure Bill could pass the mental health requirements for enlistees though, seeing as he's a pathological liar.
|
11-15-2004, 01:05 PM | #4 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
|
It's too bad that the responses have to start out snide.
To the point, If a child of mine chose a military career, that would be fine with me.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
11-15-2004, 01:09 PM | #6 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Auburn, AL
|
I would, in fact, encourage some of my family members to join the military if they were considering it, because some of them are lazy bums that need some direction in their lives. Instead of wasting away their youth, they could help the world by serving our country. Things are most definitely not going as planned in Iraq, but that doesn't mean that we should just give up. Would I go over there?...no way, but that's because I know that I have something different to offer--I can be a supernerd. Many people--such as Bill O'Reilly--have different duties as Americans than those called to serve in the military.
What I'm saying is, for some people, despite the fact that we're in a time of war, the rewards outweigh the risks of being in the military. |
11-15-2004, 01:12 PM | #7 (permalink) | |
Getting Medieval on your ass
Location: 13th century Europe
|
Quote:
|
|
11-15-2004, 01:17 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
|
Quote:
What's the problem? I was serious. I'd fight a justified war, and as for what i'd encourage my hypothetical children to do, i'd encourage them to think critically and make up their own damn mind. I want to hear what ustwo would have to say, being a new daddy and all. |
|
11-15-2004, 01:19 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
Getting Medieval on your ass
Location: 13th century Europe
|
Quote:
Last edited by Coppertop; 11-15-2004 at 01:20 PM.. Reason: typo again |
|
11-15-2004, 01:27 PM | #11 (permalink) |
Banned
Location: BFE
|
they're from the same pool....muslims willing to die to try and make their political point. It's a lot easier and safer for America to kill them on the ground in Iraq than to try and kill them on airplanes in the US.
We need to provide a place for people who "will die for Jihad" to go so that we can help them realize their dreams. |
11-15-2004, 01:34 PM | #12 (permalink) | |
Getting Medieval on your ass
Location: 13th century Europe
|
Quote:
|
|
11-15-2004, 02:01 PM | #14 (permalink) | |
is awesome!
|
Quote:
|
|
11-15-2004, 02:13 PM | #16 (permalink) |
can't help but laugh
Location: dar al-harb
|
when you think about killing those insurgents piecemeal, arresting them individually or letting them slide in and out of iraq at will over the next 10 years... the assault on fallujah is a resounding success. now that we're there... we certainly did the right thing by killing so many while using our conventional means of force as opposed to doing it by policing methods.
38 dead is still a somber figure but if you consider how many would have probably died during the rest of our time in iraq by those same insurgent fighters... we did a good thing, or at least a prudent thing. i don't think many realize how incredibly well the fallujah assault went. you're facing a determined extremist enemy who: 1) knows the city and terrain well. 2) have had months to set up booby traps and barricades 3) are fighting from their chosen entrenched positions 4) have the advantage of defending an urban environment while the opposing force is mindful of civilian and collateral damage. all that and the KIA casualty rate was over 42:1 in our favor. we should thank the lord it wasn't worse than it was... urban combat can get very messy. this was truly an ass kicking of the finest variety.
__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill |
11-15-2004, 02:22 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Upright
|
Quote:
Moore's attempt to portray it as only the children of the poor dying, is not only propagandist, but irrelevant because of this. Asking a parent if they would send their child to war is just silly grandstanding, because the answer is almost invariably going to be no, regardless of the person asked, or the war fought. What parent would ever answer yes? There are plenty of military conflicts I thought were "right", Bosnia, Somalia, Rwanda (eventually), but if someone asked me if I'd "send" my child there...hell no I wouldn't. But I'd support him or her if they chose a military life. |
|
11-15-2004, 02:39 PM | #18 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
|
Quote:
What they fail to realize is that most on the right of center don't feel that way at all.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
|
11-15-2004, 02:45 PM | #19 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: In transit
|
Quote:
__________________
Remember, wherever you go... there you are. |
|
11-15-2004, 05:01 PM | #20 (permalink) |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
|
I have served in the military and would be proud if any of my children (had I any) wanted to serve. BUT I would not be very happy with their decision to go and die not for honor or our country but for Haliburton's wallet. I would not be happy with that decision but I would honor and respect their choice in life.
My father didn't want me to join the Navy, but when I graduated bootcamp it was one of his proudest moments. As one of mine would be to see a child of mine graduate.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
11-15-2004, 07:33 PM | #21 (permalink) | |
Muffled
Location: Camazotz
|
Quote:
"Born down in a dead man's town The first kick I took was when I hit the ground You end up like a dog that's been beat too much Till you spend half your life just covering up. Born in the USA Got in a little hometown jam So they put a rifle in my hand Sent me off to a foreign land To go and kill the yellow man."
__________________
it's quiet in here |
|
11-15-2004, 07:41 PM | #22 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
You know, you would think the men were being forced into combat at gun point like it was the Russians at Stalingrad.
The concept being that the military is filled with poor saps who had no choice but to join and are now being forced into combat is as big as myth as the concept that combat troops are disproportionately minority in nature.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
11-15-2004, 07:42 PM | #23 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: Gor
|
Quote:
|
|
11-15-2004, 07:45 PM | #24 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: Gor
|
Quote:
Even if you want to claim the al Quaeda members went there after we arrived, isn't it better to have them there than in the US? By the way, we've neutralized 75% of its members. |
|
11-15-2004, 07:49 PM | #26 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: Gor
|
Quote:
Only asking because I was stationed at a Navy boot camp for awhile. |
|
11-15-2004, 08:05 PM | #27 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
|
Quote:
For example, our nighly news has been running reports on the tens of thousands of suspected terrorists posing as mexicans and streaming across the border. and that doesn't even touch on the people already living here. damn, I would think that the military people here would be more conscious of how cells operate--after all, we fucking taught them how to organize into cells. Nor the second notion: we neutralized 75% of al qaeda? no, the best I'd give you is that the US got 75% of the names it listed as those of interest. How exactly do you figure out what percentage you've got if you don't know who is involved? That is, the government would need to know how many people were in al qaeda before you could even begin to believe it had gotten any percentage of them.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
|
11-15-2004, 08:58 PM | #28 (permalink) | |
Getting Medieval on your ass
Location: 13th century Europe
|
Quote:
And about me "claiming" that they went there after we arrived, can you really be serious? You really think they were roaming about Iraq doing these things before the US arrived? Hussein and AQ had no more connection than Bush and AQ. That's been established already. bin Laden hated Hussein for him bringing US troops to the Gulf and Saudi Arabia (you know, his homeland) back in the first Gulf War. And like it was mentioned before, how exactly did you come across the 75% figure? And again, knowing that would necessitate knowing the number of AQ in total. I find it odd that that information would be known to anyone, AQ included. That's not the way terrorists organizations work. |
|
11-15-2004, 09:46 PM | #29 (permalink) | |
Stonerific
Location: Colorado
|
Quote:
Nother Story I'm not trying to discredit your entire argument ala strawman. I definately think we're killing a bunch of 'insurgents', though I hardly believe our justification for these attacks is right and true. However, I would be very careful on believing Pentagon numbers for 'insurgent deaths.' Widespread? Perhaps, perhaps not. I'm not even going to pretend to act like I know the details nor stories of Iraqi civilians. |
|
11-15-2004, 10:10 PM | #30 (permalink) | |
Tilted
|
Quote:
|
|
11-16-2004, 12:35 AM | #31 (permalink) | ||
Banned
|
Quote:
come from belies the accuracy of the reference in the quote below. Why are you linking Moore to some racial reference? Moore is obviously projecting the message that the agenda of the wealthy, powerful, and opportunity rich class in this country includes a state of perpetual fear driven warfare that disproportionally recruits the poor, disadvantaged youth, who grow up in areas of the country where job opportunities, other than in the military, have vanished, largely as a result of the investment and political decisions of the ruling class. Moore protests the corrupt, unpatriotic, exploitive nature of the ruling class. They order our troops into harms way to achieve goals that, they themselves would never risk their own lives or those of their own children to achieve. Are you more angry about Moore's message, or his success in projecting it? Did you watch Farenheit 9/11? If you disagree, tell me where you think I have misinterpreted Moore's message. Quote:
|
||
11-16-2004, 12:55 AM | #32 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Padded Playhouse
|
Quote:
Ahh finally someone else who gets it. Most of our soldiers support what they are doing, and Michael Moore doesn't realize that. Nevermind the fact that no one decides to 'sign someone else up'. You know, or should rather, what your getting into- acting like 'we' have betrayed our soldiers? How? By sending soldiers to war- thats their job, and their duty- to follow orders from the elected Commander in Chief. By bring race into it- most people just tone out. What would we have America do? If its a 'fact' that blacks or other minorities cannot afford to go to college other than by joing the military, what are we to do about it? Is that America's leaders fault? Last edited by Kalibah; 11-16-2004 at 01:00 AM.. |
|
11-16-2004, 01:13 AM | #33 (permalink) | |
undead
Location: Duisburg, Germany
|
Quote:
__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein |
|
11-16-2004, 01:35 AM | #34 (permalink) | ||||
Banned
|
Quote:
influence that it can buy, earnestly and methodically redistributing the most of this nation's wealth into the hands of fewer and fewer entities...... ......to the point that this transfer of wealth has been so damaging and so successful, that a military draft is not even needed to "sign up" the new recruits who are destined to be tomorrow's Bush regime's casualties. In 1970, the wealthiest one percent controlled 13 percent of the nation's total wealth. 3o years, later, the top one percent control 33 percent of the wealth, and the wealthy are granted huge tax cuts, elimination of inheritance taxes which were in effect when the top tier managed to shift an additional 20 percent of the total wealth of this nation from the rest of us, to....... themselves......and our "all volunteer" military gets sent to fight "pre-emptive" wars of choice. Most of America does not comprehend what the economic impact studies and the wealth distribution trend data reveals.....and you are convinced that 18 year old recruits can discern opportunity from exploitation that has been ordained by the agenda of the political class's wealthiest benefactors? Quote:
linked in bold type in the box below (On or about page 12) Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
11-16-2004, 01:35 AM | #35 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: BFE
|
Quote:
|
|
11-16-2004, 02:55 AM | #36 (permalink) | ||
Banned
|
Quote:
though, to rationalize our disfunctional, national leadership and it's criminal military aggression. Quote:
|
||
11-16-2004, 04:29 AM | #37 (permalink) |
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
Location: Grantville, Pa
|
I think the "flypaper" strategy/theory is disgusting. "We're fighting them over there en-masse so we don't have to fight them 19 at a time as they hijack planes"
Iraq had nothing to do with anti-american terrorism. That has been established. It's so appalling that there are those who advoctate flypaper being performed in a country that wasn't threatening us. What about the millions of Iraqi's who have their lives disrupted and threatened now because we want to draw all the "terrorists" in to one place to fight them. Why not draw them to Texas instead of a country that has never had anything to do with these terrorists? Also, you don't beat an organization like Al Qaeda with the "flypaper strategy" The organization is organic, and our actions like this help fuel their recruitment drive. We can draw them to a place all we want, but the result will be an unknown limit to recruiting more willing fighters. |
11-16-2004, 06:10 AM | #38 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Pittsburgh
|
If you are under 35, male, in the US, and pro war join.
My brother is in the army I ate dinner with one of the men from the "Letters Home" program, a good friend of my brothers. Arguments that count lives like curency sicken me.
__________________
Dyslexic please excuse the spelling. |
11-16-2004, 08:29 AM | #39 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
|
Quote:
How can you expect a US soldier to do anything less than kill an insurgent who is faking dead when the possibility of that insurgent detonating a booby-trapped body or pulling the pin out of a grenade that is hidden under his clothes exists? It is the US troops who are trying to fight by the rules of "international law". You never hear the international red cross or amnesty international criticize the insurgents from fighting from mosques, pretending to surrender and then opening fire? That is what outrages me. It is not this marine who is dumb, but the self serving camera man who was thinking more of himself and a pulitzer prize than the effect this video would have. He knows the soldier was in the right but that didn't matter to him. Perhaps this is a topic for another discussion. I'll see you there. |
|
11-16-2004, 08:35 AM | #40 (permalink) |
undead
Location: Duisburg, Germany
|
not sure, because I've heard a lot of strange vies here, but I hope you just tried to be ironic...
__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein |
Tags |
asked, bill, casualites, fallujah, michael, moore, oreilly |
|
|