orphen

This reminds me of my old math teacher who used to refer himself as Native American whenever he fills out forms.
"I was born in America, and am definately native"

illesturban

Seaver, it's funny how you cut out that I was JOKING about the black history month part. Unbelievable. Also, you confused me by mixing quotes from my first and second posts. And you guys are trying to be 'smart' by taking the whole handicap reference litterally. Don't act like you don't know what I am trying to get at. NOT that they are handicapped, but that they are a MINORITY who receive the SAME kind of awards other minority groups do. The point about the state of texas putting more blacks than whites on death row proves an obvious point and if you don't get it I'm sorry for you. I'm not going into it further because it'll be disected into something else and spark another debate.

And lets just agree to disagree. I don't practice arguing on the internet often and this would be a waste of time to continue on my part. Just know that you'll never what it's like until you walk in the shoes of a minority. Have fun guys.

shakran

ok, well I have walked in the shoes of a minority if we take your bullshit definition of a minority as accurate. Namely, my brother's in a wheelchair, permanently, due to a debilitating muscular disease. He can't walk, can't go to the bathroom by himself, his wife has to dress him, bathe him, and wipe his ass. His wheelchair cost $25,000 and the van to get him around cost $45,000. He'll have to take early retirement because he won't be able to lift a pencil or talk soon, which means he'll end up with damn near no money because of all the expenses related to his disease. Don't even THINK of telling me you have it tougher than him because your skin isn't as pale as mine. And btw, he's not a minority, he's disabled. Get the terminology right, and quit spewing gallons of crap around as though you know what you're talking about when it comes to disabled people. You're not a slave, there's no such things as whites-only facilities any more, and you can easilly go out and get a job in any field you want as long as you're qualified. Compared to a disabled person, you've got it easy, so I think it would behoove you to shut the hell up and stop cursing people out just because they're not racist.

BTW, what would you say if I proposed a white history month? And if you say it's racist, then so is black history month.

Oh, and I like how you assume that just because some people want fairness rather than blatant discrimination against ANY group no matter WHAT their color is, that they're racist and want to oppress you. Grow up, and get a grip.

ally

more people should pay attention to how stupid this sounds

Seaver

The point about death row is blacks tend to commit more violent crime. I'm sorry but it is a fact, whites commit more crime true, but the percentage is much less, and violent crimes even a smaller percent.

By the way, I live in Texas, I know about the whole dragging incident, and I do believe they deserved the death penalty.

They arent a minority, they are disabled. Read what Shakran and I wrote. They dont get that because of their skin color, they get it because they cant do the simple every day-to-day activites we all take for granted.

Look we know what you are saying. There are fewer disabled people than healthy, and yes they get programs to help them out just like minorities. The simple fact is they have much more to overcome than healthy people.

shakran

Ya know, I've been fuming about this latest twist to the conversation for a couple of hours. Comparing a black person to a disabled person and trying to imply that the black guy has it anywhere NEAR as rough as the disabled guy is the utmost in ignorance.

illesturban, let's go over a few things shall we?

When's the last time a you went into a family restaurant and got openly disgusted stares from many of the diners? Happens to my brother all the time. The public doesn't like seeing disabled people.

When's the last time you were sitting at a restaurant and had patrons complain that your chair was sticking too far out and the manager should "kick those kinds of people out so normal people can eat in peace?"

When's the last time you crossed the street, only to discover that you can't get on the sidewalk on the other side due to an impassable barrier? Try rolling a chair over a curb that has no curb cut, or that has a curb cut but it's a deep puddle after a rain, or that has a curb cut that's in such awful repair that the chair would get stuck. My brother deals with this every day.

When's the last time you couldn't go into a store because there weren't any parking places available that had enough room next to them to get out of your car? Ever see motorcycles parked in the white hash marks next to the handicapped space? Guess what that does for the guy with a wheelchair lift.

When's the last time you couldn't go into a store because there were only 6 parking places you were allowed to park in, and they've all been taken up by people who don't need them? Happens every DAY to disabled people.

When's the last time you tried to go into a store only to discover they didn't have an entrance that you could physically get through?

When's the last time you were out in public and couldn't go to the bathroom because you couldn't fit in the stall?

When's the last time you got exasperated sighs, coughs, and shouted insults from customers and clerks because it took you too long to get your credit card out to pay for something? Try losing most of your muscle mass so your fingers can't grip anything very well, and then see how long it takes you to get a card out of your wallet.

When's the last time you were going down the sidewalk and were yelled at because you're "taking up too much space, asshole?" Just saw that happen to my brother last week.

When's the last time you were walking down the sidewalk, and your body suddenly turned off so you couldn't move, and no one would help you? Happened to my brother when his chair died. He was stuck there for 3 hours waiting for someone to help him.

When's the last time you were terrified to stand because you're not strong enough to stop yourself if you start to fall, and your bones have atrophied due to lack of use, so if you DO fall you're gonna break a lot of them?

When's the last time you had to pay $70,000 just to get around? When's the last time you had to pay $10,000 just so you could get out of bed? When's the last time you had to have someone wipe your butt after you used the toilet because you couldn't reach around to do it yourself? When's the last time your entire family was destroyed because your condition made it impossible to focus on anything BUT your condition?

When's the last time you had to plan your trips away from home very carefully because if you go too far and have to take a crap, you'll have to go in your pants because there aren't any toilets in public that are tall enough for you to get off of?

When's the last time your son had to lift you off the toilet because you couldn't get up yourself, even though you have an extra-tall ADA toilet with a 1.5 foot riser on top of it?

And when's the last time the simple act of getting out of bed was such a long, hard ordeal that it depressed you for the rest of the day, because you feel utterly useless and totally dependant on everyone for everything?



My point in all this is that the disabled population has a VERY tough row to hoe. If black people think they face daily discrimination, they should try being disabled some time. It's infinitely worse. Blacks, as a rule, no longer get disgusted looks just because they had the audacity to be in public. They can enter any public building they want. They're not automatically disqualified from the majority of jobs out there (hint: disabled people can't do physical jobs. Kinda limits their options). If you want to start comparing disadvantages, I guarantee you that NO minority has as many as the disabled community, because the disabled community is at the same stage of the discrimination timeline as the black community was in 1950. Except that a black guy in 1950 could go from one end of the sidewalk to the other without worrying about getting stuck and not being able to move. A disabled guy can't do that even today, 50 years later.


The bottom line is that we're all human. We're all people. Race doesn't mean dick when it comes to evaluating a person. Labels don't mean dick either. African American, People of Color, Negro, Black, it all means the same damn thing. Shut up and move on. If you get this bent out of shape over a damn LABEL then you need a serious reality check.

Ya know, the disabled community largely doesn't give a shit what you call them. the PC community loves to come up with new and exciting labels - "physically challenged" and "differently abled" being my favorite. The majority of disabled people think that's all bullshit, and it is. They'd rather have unrestricted access to restaurants and stores than waste time dicking around trying to change what we call them.

And regarding the award, first off, like I've said, there isn't one person on this forum that can say with 100% certainty what the motives of these kids were. They might have been being royal pricks. They might also have been making a political statement. Assuming that because they're white or because one of them is south African or because they come from a rich school, or whatever other bullshit reason you base your groundless assumptions on - -assuming that they're being assholes because of that is pure prejudice.

"oh well, they're white people. They just wanna be racist and stir up trouble."

It's wrong, and it shows the ignorance of anyone who does it.

Let's break this award out and carry it to its logical conclusion.

This award can be projected into lots of other programs so we can be sure to "enhance diversity" by making exclusionary awards the norm everywhere. Let's have the black Indy 500 winner trophy. Fastest time from a black driver wins. Black-only golf tournaments. Black Wimbledon. Black-only National Merit Scholarship. This is also called segregation, discrimination, and racism, but I guess all that is good as long as it's not being done TO you, but FOR you, is that it?

Fine, if the black community insists on special awards, months, holidays, etc, that highlight the fact that black people are different from everyone else, that's your decision. Do whatever the hell you want, but don't go running around crying because people view you differently. If you don't want to be viewed as different, don't make such a damn big effort to tell everyone you're different. Instead try telling the truth - that you're people, just like every other person. Diversity doesn't mean blacks, whites, and mexicans. Diversity means individuality.


At any rate, don't act like when it comes to discrimination you're even in the same league as disabled people, because compared to them, no matter what discrimination you face, they face far more.


And finally, I guarantee you that Martin Luther King would be disgusted at the state of affairs today. We as a society have taken his dream of a colorblind world in which people were judged on their merit rather than their appearance and twisted it into a nightmare of constant racial bickering and hatred. We took his vision and turned it into a fight for labels - the very thing he gave his life fighting for. We've taken all the ideas he had and corrupted them to the point where they're unrecognizeable, insisting instead on a society in which we do the exact opposite of what he fought so hard to achieve. Yet we have the audacity to name a holiday after this man, as though that will make up for our destroying the future that he made possible. Give me a break.

analog

Ok here's the deal...

You were all warned several times by BuDDaH to stay on-topic.

The main reason for this is so that THIS does not happen- yelling back and forth at each other about things totally unrelated to the original intent of the thread. Many of you are just venting on each other.

This was about a school, some kids, and an important issue about race discrimination and how it affects us in today's society.

For those who stayed on-topic, thank you very much for your participation. For those who didn't, try not to digress into yelling your personal politics at each other.

This is not high school, this is the TFP.

Bill O'Rights

OK...this thread has digressed so far from the original topic that I doubt it will ever get back on track. On second thought, however, maybe it didn't get off track, so much as it...evolved? That waits to be seen. In any event, it clearly no longer belongs in General Discussion...hence, I'm moving it into Tilted Politics.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

BuDDaH

ApexgriN,

You still fail to see the point, yet you continue try to point it out like you know. You don't.
I don't know what part of the world YOU live in, but not matter how you turn it, there is a GREAT difference between an AFRICAN in America and an African-American. (Lets make it even CLEARER: An African exchange student in AMERICA and an AMERICAN of AFRICAN DESCENT.)
Got it now?


Read the article: He is an exchange student from Africa not a naturalized citizen of the United States of America.

Looks like someone NEEDS to read the article abit more.. I am not going to repeat the obvious.. It's in there...

I don't pretend to know the politics of who and how they come around deciding, I just know it isn't done by the students, nor should the students should be pointing in any direction about someone being qualified because he is from Africa..
No, you listen: I tell YOU what I am, not the other way around.
What is the definition of African-American to you? What does African-American means to you? All my life and majority of everyone I know AND in the whole damned world knows and has the same meaning to the definition
of African-American.

Whatever...


Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. This is where we see a difference between you and I. I HAVE seen it and it wasn't 50 years ago, in was in 1974, Beaufort County, S.C. But sidestepping my personal experience, racial segregation and the fight for racial equality hasn't ended, there is still some state the JUST last year got sued by the students because they still had LAWS forbidding mixed raced children to attend the prom. There also was in another state where students sued to have the law overturned so the can all attend the same prom, not have one for them and one for the Blacks.
That was 2002. (To ask a question, which prom YOU think he would attend?) Wake up, sleeper..


Yeah, all right, lemme see, hmmm.... I didn't say anything about him being a friend, but lets sidestep that and I'd counter you with a situation form 1968 or 1969: There was a group of boys going around promoting voter's rights for African-Americans. They were stopped by the police or a group of men, dragged out of the car, beaten, killed, then taken with their car and dumped and buried in side the car. Three caucasins and a African-American they were just giving a ride to his home. Before you say that was back then: 4 years ago, an African-American was dragged behind a pickup truck over 7 miles to his death in the state of Texas. Ring a bell?


You are still missing it


Do you live in a bubble world where no shit clings on you or what?
I was just pointing out a very bad practice that is happening nowadays, its called "racial profiling" and it is being practiced under the guise of having a background check done. I haven't been living State-side for about 14 years and when I go for an interview, they cannot pull anything up, so when I tell them where they can find information about me, they don't even bother to follow it through. I did not mention anything about being afraid of a check, but I have seen them ask me for one and didn't even ask my friend I went to the same interview. He even asked WHY they didn't ask him but me. Why am I going tit for tat with you, is to show where you are talking nothing about what you don't know but yet chooses to voice an opinion.
A kid just got shot and killed not too far from where I write this.
Wasn't suspected for any crime.
Explain that to his parents...


Your last few points I won't even bother to go tit for tat, because it shows you, and not the majority of people who think and see the same crap, are not on the same planet. I want a ticket to where you live, I'll have a nice picket fence and a dog in the dog house, with neighbors like Mr. Roger and the Brady Bunch. Then when I'll have a problem, it will all get solved by sundown...

WAKE UP.

__________________
I'd hit that so hard whoever could pull me out would become King of England!

Lebell

Stripping away all the nonsense word games, affirmative action, racial social groups, etc. boils down to, "Since we were discriminated against and still are sometimes, it should be legally ok to discriminate against you."

Discrimination is wrong, regardless of the color of your skin.

MLK had it right.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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ARTelevision

The use of the term "discrimination" is being leveraged here - and bent toward personal agendas. The fact is, "discrimination" is essentially an enlightened and rational process of distinguishing differences between things. Its contemporary socio-political definition is not its main one.

Here's a definition from m-w:

Main Entry: dis·crim·i·na·tion
Pronunciation: dis-"kri-m&-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 a : the act of discriminating b : the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently
2 : the quality or power of finely distinguishing
3 a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment


To say "discrimination is wrong" doesn't quite terminate the thread. It appears that one side of this discussion urges us to recognize the actual differences that exist between people in the world and the other side urges us to overlook them. That's the roadblock.

Granted, categorical discrimination is a blunt instrument for social engineering. Perhaps sharpening the tools of discussion or framing the issues as I've posed them above can help us out of our conundrum. The fact is, we move fairly and fluidly between these polarities in our interactions with other people every day.

__________________
create evolution

Lebell

I'm sorry Art, but to me it does terminate the conversation, unless you are willing to argue that discrimination is not wrong, a position I am willing to bet you are not taking.

I don't know if "personal agenda" was directed at me (or if I am simply feeling that way since you seem to be addressing my last post), but I will answer it as if it were.

Today in a America it is seen as socially and culturally ok to legally discriminate against a person because of the color of his skin, in this case white.

I cannot see anyway that this is any more morally correct than when it was ok to discriminate when that color was black.

Now, I don't see that recognizing this and wishing for a color neutral society addresses in anyway the natural differences between people, whether they be cultural, racial, spiritual, etc.

In otherwords, I can gladly celebrate someone's heritage while still wishing that neither they nor I are discriminated against because of that heritage.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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ARTelevision

Lebell, not directed at anyone, just a general observation.

Anyway, I think agreeing to this statement of yours is just where I felt it would be good to start:

"I can gladly celebrate someone's heritage while still wishing that neither they nor I are discriminated against because of that heritage."

I'd bet - rhetorical positioning aside - most of us agree wholeheartedly with you here.

If that's the case, where can we go from here?

__________________
create evolution

nofnway

I grew up in Omaha....Westside high has a reputation for being the spoiled brat not rich enough for private school kids. This strikes me as typical fare for those boneheads. The three black kids at that school probably got bent because a real "African" ran for some award. The South african student may not have realized the PC connected to that award but the 3 penile implant helpers surely did and were working it.

I recently went back to Omaha after 20 years in CA....Racially segregated as it was when I left......It might have only been 1 black kid in school fighting for that award...imagine how mad he or she would be.

__________________
"Iron rusts with disuse, stagnant water loses its purity and in cold water freezes. Even so does inaction sap the vigor of the mind"
Leonardo Da Vinci

Seaver

Pretty damn good considering his competition was suspended.

BuDDaH

This is getting conSCREWED out of wack. Let's set this in the RIGHT perspective first then I'll ask you a question.

"I have a dream"

Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of captivity. But one hundred years later, we must face the tragic fact that the Negro is still not free.

One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languishing in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land.

So we have come here today to dramatize an appalling condition. In a sense we have come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir.

This note was a promise that all men would be guaranteed the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check which has come back marked "insufficient funds." But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation.

So we have come to cash this check -- a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice. We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time to open the doors of opportunity to all of God's children. Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood.

It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment and to underestimate the determination of the Negro. This sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end, but a beginning. Those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. There will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights.

The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges. But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred.

We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. we must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.

The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny and their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom.

We cannot walk alone. And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" we can never be satisfied as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.

I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow cells. Some of you have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.

Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in the valley of despair. I say to you today, my friends, that in spite of the difficulties and frustrations of the moment, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day the state of Alabama, whose governor's lips are presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification, will be transformed into a situation where little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls and walk together as sisters and brothers. I have a dream today. I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together. This is our hope. This is the faith with which I return to the South. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.

This will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with a new meaning, "My country, 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim's pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring." And if America is to be a great nation, this must become true. So let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania! Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado! Let freedom ring from the curvaceous peaks of California! But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia! Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee! Let freedom ring from every hill and every molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"

Now, since we have the words of the man in front of you, tell me:

Which kind of people is he talking about that isn't getting equality
and where do the live where they aren't getting treated fair?

(The Black American or the African-American Negros in America)

Not Jew or Gentile, Protestant or Catholic, African or any OTHER race of ethnicity... NOW you have the base idea of the award.
Those students were wrong to try to change the rules of the "game". It isn't for anyone to point out what they "feel" is not being PC or being PC.
You whine about the fact that Blacks get a whole month but yet there is only ONE day that is a holiday.. How many holidays are there for Presidents or Jewish holidays in the year? And you complain about Blacks having ONE day in a year to celebrate anyone who have made a difference..

Funny, I don't see any Black Americans on a postal stamp, yet there are so many Black Americans who have made contributions to many of the things being used in TODAY'S society and everyday life for the world. (Lamps, stoplights, rubber, peanut oil, aviation, hair products....)
Shit, American wouldn't be America if it wasn't for this man:
http://www.seacoastnh.com/blackhistory/crispus.html .

These are African-Americans or Black Americans.
Don't "try" to educate ME on what African-American means. I know the difference between an African in American and an African-American.
No matter what YOU want to think, I will show you the difference.
So, spare me the "shoo-in" vote from Africa........
Keep it "real".
See it the way it was meant to be..

__________________
I'd hit that so hard whoever could pull me out would become King of England!

BuDDaH

And for your added pleasure: This is some of what Black History Month is about: http://www.jeannepasero.com/blackhist1.html
Google up more if you'd like, keyword: Black Americans

Read up then speak like you know it, you don't TELL me what African-American or Black Americans are: WE ALREADY KNOW.

Shakran,
Black History Month isn't for us or about us celebrating, it's there to educate the other Americans about US. (The BLACK AMERICANS / African-Americans)

You read then catch up on US. We been there from the beginning.

__________________
I'd hit that so hard whoever could pull me out would become King of England!

Lebell

SOB!!!

I had a huge reply and I lost it.

Sometimes I hate technology.

*edit,

Ok, I felt it was important enough, so I rebuilt my post in Word.

------------------------------------------------------

Buddah,

I would say that you haven’t looked hard enough, but the sad truth is, I don’t believe you have looked at all: Black Americans/Black History on Stamps

And yes, Dr. King’s words are still moving, thirty years after he wrote them, but it IS thirty years later.

One of my most moving experiences was when I traveled to Birmingham, Alabama a few years ago and visited the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, right across the street from the famous/infamous Sixteenth Street Baptist Church.

As I walked through the exhibits of letters, Klan robes, pictures and even a reproduction of a burnt out “freedom bus”, I was moved to tears at how inhuman and cruel we can be to our fellow man.

Then I walked across the street through the park, where many of these events occurred. I walked through the bronze statues there, depicting among other things, Bull Conner’s dogs attacking a young black man, and I was moved to tears again.

But the fact that these things were here, in Birmingham, was a testament of just how far we’ve come. The fact that blacks have risen to high political office, including Secretary of State and governor of Virginia no less, tells me that we have come far.


I am not blind to the fact that we still have a long way to go.

I am not blind to the fact that there is still prejudice and that it has become subtler and insidious.

It is human nature to segregate and to associate with those who look like “us”, whether that “us” be white, black, latino, asian, etc. And as an extension, to discriminate against those who don’t look like “us”. The nature of prejudice, ironically, knows no color.

But I also believe that the black community adds to the problem and holds itself back. I also believe that this is encouraged by some on the political left for their own advantage.
They are told that they can’t succeed, whether it is because they live in a ghetto, because their schools don’t have enough money, or simply because there is someone who will always hold them back, basically because they are black.

Then they are told that the only way they can succeed is if they are “allowed” to, by being admitted to colleges and by being hired into good jobs, not because of their ability, but again, because they are black.

This spits in the face of Dr. King

And those black people who do succeed are frequently further victimized by their own, by being called “Uncle Tom” or “Oreo”, because those who don’t succeed believe that any black who does, must have “sold out”, as if being true to your (black) heritage means you remain in the ghetto.

This self-victimization is further seen by the scale of black-on-black crime. Blacks victimize other blacks at rates higher than any other racial group. They are also disproportionately represented in American prisons, especially death row.* Then they are told by those on the left that this is proof that they are still victims of discrimination, that somehow it isn’t the black criminal’s fault that he is a criminal.

Ironically, if you point this out, you are likely to be called a bigot, as if pointing out stark statistics is prejudiced.

So in closing, I would like to say that I believe discrimination is very real in America. That it exists everywhere and affects all people, some to a greater and some to a lesser degree. It is certainly still easier to “succeed” being a white male as opposed to a black female. But there ARE black females that have succeeded. So I don’t believe things are as bleak as you paint. I also firmly believe that anything that drives a wedge between people and excludes them, whether it be Hispanic “pride” clubs, affirmative action, the KKK, etc. is morally wrong and inherently evil.


*It would be neglegent of me not to say that I DO believe there is prejudice in our judicial system still, and that I believe a black murder defendant is more likely to receive the death penalty than a white murder defendant, which is (just) one reason I am against capital punishment.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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shakran

I know that. But why do we have to have a specific month to do it in. Don't you see the automatic segregation of black history vs. all other history if you do that?

"Oh, it's february. Time to learn about the black people's history. We can go back to regular history in March." Whether that's the intent or not, that's how people are gonna view it. Why not instead teach the same stuff as you do in BHM, but teach it throughout the year as American history? I mean, MLK is going to have the same impact whether you learn about him in February or April.

The point is, if you want to be treated and thought of as equivalent to everyone else, you have to stop making such huge efforts to say that you're radically different.

I really don't care what color you are, but the trouble is that many people do care. In fact, many people care because it's been made such a big issue. Everywhere you look, there are campaigns to point out that black people are different. Television shows, black history month, affirmative action, black-only awards. . They all add up to trying to separate the races. This country used to be called a melting pot, and if it truly were, we wouldn't have the racial fighting we have today. Instead we all insist on keeping our races separate. Rather than seeing that we're all human and we all have the same basic needs and wants (food, shelter, protection, sex. . whatever the order of needs is, I can't remember now) we insist on saying that white people are different from black people are different from asians are different from american indians are different from mexicans. Why not emphasize the CULTURE, and not the race? Of course, to do that we have to throw african-american out the window because, as has been pointed out, it's not accurate. African-american is not a culture, it's a label slapped on people from numerous cultures and as such, it's an inaccurate attempt to stereotype.

Whoopi Goldberg came straight out and said, several times, "I am NOT an african-american. I am an AMERICAN."

I have germanic, polish, cherokee, english, and french ancestry, yet I don't insist on being called a "germanopolcherokengfrench-american"

Let's be blunt. Africa is the country, that (assuming you really are a decendant of american slaves) sold your ancestors into slavery in the first place (so in other words it's wasn't the awesomely wonderful culture it is made out to be, Africa was an active participant in the slave trade). This insistance on being called an african american is ridiculous. You don't have dual citizenship. The majority of "african-americans" have never even been to Africa. Many do not even have African ancestors.

This is the United States of America. This is your country, and Africa is not. If you are so angry with the USA that you insist on being semantically separated from it by referring to yourself as half an American, then I suggest that you go to Africa and try out life there. Otherwise, be true to what you are - an American - and start working toward inclusion and colorblindness - a society where race truly doesn't matter at all and where the individual is judged on the individual rather than his racial group.

illesturban

You know, I wasn't even going to post more in here, but I just HAD to after reading that. Lebell, you are completely right and I couldn't agree with you more. This is very true about how blacks in this country continue to hold themselves back. But I mean, Uncle Tom isn't a term given out so lightly. For an example, Michael Jackson isn't considered an Uncle Tom because he stop singing soul music and went to pop or because he had a white wife. I don't really want to go into what I feel an uncle tom is, because that will probably just spark another argument and I personally am not trying to get involved in another one of those.

Nonetheless I had to get on and say that you are right; as blacks as a whole we should get more pollitically involved and vote, stop all the black on black crime, and the mentality that being from the ghetto is something to be proud of; because it is not. And I think it is great that you are so open-minded and objective and can see that no, things AREN'T perfect as far as racial issues go in America and the judicial and capital punishment programs may not be completely as fair as they should be.

BuDDaH

Shakran,
It is attitude like that and people who think just like you that won't except change and want to keep holding onto the world as you know it.

You act like Black Americans where ASKED "Well, if you had any choice, which month would you like to have ALL the Black Americans remembered?" and proceded to have the ALL lumped into one month. The government did that. WE didn't have the luxury of a choice, and the government also relized it was time to start recognizing Black Americans for their contributions to society.

And your typical "love it or leave it" cop out, like YOU rather instead of acknowledging the fact that things like "black only awards" and Black history month were caused by the lack of people NOT allowing Blacks to particpate and play in the same "yard" as them. So, WE made our own.

You can say all you want how YOU don't see any different, Black or Black American, but we all have roots to African and that all has been documented. So, can your bullshit and see what is in front of you. If you don't like it, YOU can leave..
Just because our nationality is American, doesn't mean we don't acknowledge our ethicnicity which is African.

It isn't up to YOU or PEOPLE like YOU to tell US what we are, because when we do tell you, you STILL don't listen and still try to tell us what we are and what we should do... That's the attitude people like you carry and won't let US out of the box.
Listen to your self...
See, you cannot argue with a Black American who is WELL aware of himself, his history, his family's history, and his own ethicnicity.

And anything you say cannot hold water to someone who knows "HIStory" and counter it with an argument and speak in general about Black Americans or African-Americans. You cannot, because I and just about everyone of US has almost the same story.
Even before the Holocast, we were saying "never again" and "never forget".

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shakran

BuDDaH:

It's attitude like that - the never letting go, the idea that past mistreatments are the fault of the current generation, the idea that the current generation should "pay" for what the assholes in our past did, the idea that because of atrocities that happened in the past we can NEVER have a color blind society - that will guarantee the continuance of racial problems for all time. If that's your goal, then you're on the right track.

I stand firm, though, that black on white racisim is just as evil as white on black racism. People should be judged on their merit, not their color. Your color is meaningless, your character is all that matters.

If, however, you, as you seem to be insisting, want to be judged at least in part on your color, then you should be quite happy with the current state of affairs.

Cynthetiq

I see this as more diluting the playing field since the latin's weren't able to "play on the same field" either they introduced the Latin Grammys, and other niche areas.

IMHO awards and ceremonies are just to generate buzz, excitement, and funds. Even the Friars Roast generates some good greenbacks.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

BuDDaH

Well, since it seems to be getting personal, let's flip the script:

Let me put you and your next ten generations into indentured servitude, tell you that you are 5/8th of a whole person, give you no rights, give you a pitchfork and make you pick cotton in the sun or any hard work without pay, make you sleep in shitty conditions. (Even back then, pigs and horses lived better and were worth more than slaves..) You couldn't live in these conditions, you are too pampered even now. You can't see yourself in this kind of environment. Shit like that lasted LONGER than America has been country, it has many leaps and bounds over the last 30 years but it still is going on.
So, it is people like you should own up to your responsibility and instead of finger pointing. You know, by my opinion, there wasn't even an apology, and no admittance of wrong doing.... And the government STILL hasn't held on any promised it made.
And you wonder WHY people are angry..?
And it isn't about identifying a color, it's about identifying a culture along with it. ITS ALL ABOUT IDENTITY.

*Hint*
Me and that African standing side by side, someone says "He's African." and nods in our direction, what's the percentage I'll get picked before him?

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ubertuber

Before you guys go away from this post... BuDDaH, I am curious what you are referring to here. I don't mean that as an attack - I am just wondering what specifically you are referencing here.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Seaver

Actually there was, Clinton made a formal apology in his final term.

Why? No one in my family has ever owned slaves... why should my children pay?

Oh wait.. I'm white... I dont have a right to be treated equally as a minority because of what a few others have done. Woah... what does that sound like?

sadatx

Man, Seaver, you made me post here in this cyclical arguement again.

I'll make it short and sweet: No you don't have the right to be treated "equally AS A MINORITY", as you put it.

Why?

Because you're the MAJORITY.

Seaver

Apparently you havent read my previous posts. I am NOT the majority. Read my previous statements and then tell me that.

Besides... my point was that it was because of the color of my skin that others were being treated better legally. I dont care what the past is can you honestly say this is ok?

shakran

In that case, you couldn't live in those conditions either.

Let's change your example a bit to make it more analogous to what's going on today. Instead of you enslaving me and my next ten generations, let's say that some people who are not at all in your ancestry but who happen to be the same skin color as you enslaved the white people for 10 generations. Roughly 140 years ago, black people stopped enslaving white people. Now tell me. Is it your fault? Should I blame YOU for that?

See, it's really stupid to require today's white people to pay for/ attone for / be blamed for slavery. None of us had slaves. None of our parents or grandparents had them either. For many of us, myself included, our families didn't even migrate to the USA until well AFTER slavery had ended.

No one's saying that slavery didn't suck. We ARE saying that we didn't do it. Holding the son responsible for the sins of the father is bad enough, but holding the son responsible for the sins of the great-great-great-great-great grandfather is abhorent. It's even worse to hold a guy responsible for slavery simply because he's white, even if none of his family ever had anything to do with slavery. By the way, that's not only stupid, it's also racist.

Like I said. We can either spend eternity wallowing in the horrible, but distant, past OR we can move on and try to build a society that actually works rather than one in which its people spend their existanct fighting over which color is more evil.

smooth

Your previous posts stated that you are "white." How do you figure you aren't included in the dominant culture group in this society?

Some definitions seem to be in order:

Majority doesn't speak to numerical size, it addresses dominance; that is, who has political and cultural clout.

Minority doesn't speak to numerical size, either. It's a reference to a group's relative lack of political and/or cultural power.

If you are German or Irish immigrant, your family likely was, at one time, in a similar position as black Americans. However, while your ancestors were able to "pass" into the dominant culture (that is, once they lost their accent and clothes along with other cultural trappings--they assimilated, in other words) because visually differentiation between themselves and others became insignificant, black Americans had no such "luxury."

Currently we have the added complication of eroticizing the "other" or, more precisely, the "exotic." So people are making claim to their "dark" heritage, getting tan, & etc. But look closely, because you'll notice that even then people better stay brown (or "mocha") lest they be classified as actually "Black."

If you really think that racism is "over," start examining the dominant trends (that we are all part of and perpetuate) in our society more closely.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

smooth

I reply that the issue you are responsible for addressing is discrimination--rather than denying it continues.

Also, corporations that did own slaves, profitted from that ownership, and continue to profit today based on the capital they garnered from that lopsided economic relationship, ought to be held accountable for their "sins of the past."

While you may not have, it simply isn't accurate to state that no entity today didn't benefit from that "horrible, but distant, past."

Cynthetiq

mmmm... by all accounts then Jews should be able to get same types of reparations, awards, etc.?

the jews go back further as slaves than just 100 years.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

smooth

That's strange, an off-topic post by a mod...

shouldn't this go in the affirmative action thread, since "Jews" [sic] benefit from that legislation. To answer your question directly, if indeed it is a serious one, they certainly should be able to seek some compensation for whatever residual effects they can come up with.

Whether they should receive something ought to be up to a jury. In this case, however, people aren't even willing to concede that compensation to blacks is a viable issue.

I guess now would be the time to inform you that I'm not black, I'm jewish. Of course, that doesn't prevent me from being Portuguese, nor Native American.

Furthermore, just to drive the point home (in case you haven't realized the irony in your question), BuDDah could be jewish for all we know--so he could, quite possibly, "outrank" everyone standing here in terms of multi-faceted discrimination.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Lebell

You are correct in that.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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shakran

I have never denied that it continues. What I do deny is the asinine proposition that there is ONLY white-on-minority discrimination.

So many people run around saying "discrimination against black people is WRONG," yet they then lend support to "african-american" awards which are only available to black people and are therefore discriminatory against non-black people.

People want it both ways, and when someone objects they're branded a racist.

smooth

OK, I get what you're saying. I think, though, that when people speak of discrimination they are really using shorthand for political and cultural discrimination from the mainstream.

That is, things that allow people to create identities for themselves and fully participate in the political decisions of their nation-state.

With that said, there are various awards that already go to "white" people, no one is preventing them from participating in the mainstream. "Black" awards, in contrast, were constructed to provide a venue for a particular group of people who have traditionally been excluded from the mainstream.

The reason many people support one and not the other seems to be that they see the second as a response to the first. Once the first instance no longer occurs, they probably wouldn't support exclusionary awards. That is, if we do away with the second, then the first will still continue despite our recognition that they are both theoretically "wrong."

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

illesturban

ummm do you live in america, because descendants of holocaust survivors DO get reparations buddy. And umm that wasn't even in america.

Seaver

Hm... this sounds like minority to me. But while I was physically beaten, verbally put down, and denied jobs because of my skin color... it does not matter because my skin color is the same as most rich people.

Do you realize how insulting that is to me? That these things done to me are somehow ok because many others the same color are doing ok?

Have you ever been called racist names?
Have you ever flat out been told you arent going to get hired because you're the wrong skin color?
Have you ever been assaulted because you're the wrong color?
Have you? If you have you'd have the slightest clue what I'm talking about and you wouldn't just write it off as being ok. My family has NEVER done any injustices to blacks or mexicans, yet this is continually written off as ok because we owe them or something.

smooth

I never said anything about your past being "ok," but I sure am surprised you didn't learn any empathy given your past experiences.

Now reread my and BuDDah's ethnicities, the definition of a minority group that I posted above, and a history book. Then explain to me how you can come here and post a flop piece of shit as to whether we have ever been assaulted or denied a job on the basis of skin color.

To be frank, I don't really give a shit how insulted you are right now because you constructed an argument out of thin air so you would be insulted. So go cry to your momma, maybe she cares...maybe she doesn't.

I bet you don't live where you are verbally assaulted and denied shit every day anymore, do you?

Probably not, because you could move your ass somewhere else--and it wasn't likely very far. However, I don't deny that Hispanics aren't becoming a dominant force in our culture--just be sure not to whine about it when the time comes after the tables are reversed. This isn't to argue that it's ok, but that you shouldn't be an asshat about it because it's been a long time coming.

And BTW:

Running through your childhood, let's just get some things straight for the faithful readers:

Why don't you enlighten us as to whether you ever called the police on the hooligans who assaulted you.

Or rather, start basic: what color were your teachers? What about your principle?

If you ever filed a complaint, what color were the cops who showed up?

I don't know all those answers, but lets drive it home:

Maybe your problem becomes a criminal case. Would you mind telling us the color of the District Attorney? How 'bout the Public Defender? Any guesses as to who would be sitting on the bench? I'm just curious as to what color you think the faces in the jury box would be?

Meanwhile, describe your congressperson (or congressman, more likely, since discrimination cuts a large swathe), your governor, and finally, (one we all know) your president.

I'm curious just what you learned during that tumultuous, tramatic experience in high school. What did you read in history, science, and civics classes? Any insightful comments on how your peers felt while your teachers paraded white accomplishment after another, page after page?

Did you read how courageous whites slaughtered the savage injuns? I can't imagine you learning that whites were regarded as savages and my ancestors were the Americans--or who really scalped who. I'd be very surprised if you learned where "our" founding fathers came up with the "innovative" concept of this country's current government structure (hint: native tribes co-existed for hundreds of years and utilized congresses long before common white foke were allowed to read).

What about manifest destiny or the white man's burden, did you learn those insightful tidbits?

After you answer all these questions, would you explain to us whether you were part of the "dominant" group or the "minority" group?

Cynthetiq

my point is that you can take a good number of heritages in a number of countries and find these same type of discriminations not just in america, but across the world.

if it's limited to america, then heck you can say that the Irish were mistreated etc, there are people who still remember seeing signage that said,"Irish need not apply"

you could do the same for the chinese during the railroad expansions.

and in regards to the hispanics, well it's the hispanics and a good number of asian groups that have completely reaped the civil rights that the blacks so demanded. IMHO they do it better, smarter, with larger community goals in mind.

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