Seaver

No, I am NOT whining. My point was while they claimed all that stuff held them down and was a justification for legal discrimination, my personal experiences shoots that to pieces.

Yeah it's called college. Please forgive me for trying to better myself.

Where do you get this from? My problem isnt with Hispanics.. it's with a few asshats. I dont want to hold them down because of what a few did, just the same reason why I dont agree with reparations/affirmitive action.

Yes, I have LOTS of empathy for those that were wronged. I have personally been there, but where that ends is where they demand action because they were wronged. Where did I ever argue that Hispanics should pay me for what happened? Never, because I got over it. My point (again) is that you should not hold the many accountable for the many. Discrimination is discrimination, it's as black and white as that.

Halx

I want you all to go pick up a social psychology book and look up a definition and examples of the term 'self fulfilling prophecy'

THEN I want you to apply your knowledge to the world around you, specifically the points discussed in this thread. Then, I want you to dismiss your statistics and get real.

There are lies. There are damn lies. And then there are statistics.

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shakran

You just proved my point for me, although you're wrong on one aspect. There aren't any white awards. There are mainstream awards, which are open to all comers, and there are minority awards, which are open only to a specific skin color. The last time I checked, there were no whites-only scholarships available for universities (at least, none that are publicly acknowledged), yet there are a helluva lot of black, indian, latino, etc. scholarships.


If a "black" award is specifically designed to provide a venue outside of the mainstream, then we should not complain when black people find themselves outside of the mainstream. After all, that's what we were going for with the "black" awards. The solution is not to ignore the mainstream in favor of specialized blacks-only awards. The solution is to work to make blacks and other minority groups a complete, 100% PART of the mainstream. Efforts have been made to that effect, but they are stymied by the black population's own insistance on being parted from non-blacks.

I really don't understand how anyone can think the idea of total integration of the skin colors rather than separation of the skin colors can be racist. I don't understand how anyone can think that the idea of ignoring skin color in favor of character in the evaluation of a person is racist. And I don't understand how anyone can think that continual insistance on being considered and treated different from everyone else will result in everyone being treated equally.

Mojo_PeiPei

Got to love the double standards.

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BuDDaH

What planet you live on? No white awards?

The Oscars
The Golden Globes
The Academy Awards
The Grammy's

Country and Western Music Awards

Ring a damned bell yet? BET only has been around for less than 20 years, how long has these others been around? And you whine about us having one?

Maybe when they decide to open up and make more catagories into the mainstream and include others arts besides their own catagories, then you'll see an more honest approach.

Hell, remember this: Steven Spielburg's "The Color Purple"
nominated for a record 15 Oscars. He won none and was "blacklisted". The next year, "Driving Miss. Daisy" swept the academy.. Talk about being fair? HAHAHA, you ignorant people make me laugh...

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shakran

Past Oscar winners (incomplete list)

Hattie McDaniel - Gone With the Wind

Sidney Portier - Lillies of the Field

Louis Gossett Jr. - Officer and a Gentleman

Denzel Washington - Glory

Denzel Washington - Training Day

Whoopi Goldberg - Ghost

Cuba Gooding Jr. - Jerry MaGuire

Halle Berry - Monster's Ball



A quick search for golden globes doesn't turn up a list of past winners, only current ones, so I'll skip it.


Grammys.

You aren't really gonna tell me the grammys are whites only are you?

Lessee:

Ella Fitzgerald, Count Basie, Will Smith, Sean Puffy Combs (or whatever the hell he's calling himself this week), R. Kelly, Chris Rock, Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston, TLC, Barry White, LeVar Burton, and a crapload of other black winners that I'm too lazy to type in. Those are mostly recent winners too. Go farther back and you find even more. That also is ONLY black winners. Other minorities have won as well - Santana picked up 9 off of one album.

Oh, and Harry Belafonte got a lifetime achievement award from the Grammys.

Emmys:

Oprah Winfrey has won 16 of them - 1 of which is a lifetime achievement.

Wayne Brady won 2 emmys his first time out, one of which was tied with The View, which is cohosted by Star Jones.



So if you wanna talk about whites-only awards, how about finding awards that are actually whites-only?

sadatx

Well, congratulations, you came up with 8 out of how many now?

Hattie McDaniel won for playing a slave who was happy with and faithful to her white owners (I'm not saying she's not a great actress, she is, I'm just commenting on the mindset of the voters).

Denzel won for playing a slave who fights for the north in the civil war. Then a corrupt, drug-dealing, murdering cop.

Again, I think Denzel's a terrific actor and I'm just pointing out the types of roles academy members think black actors should get recognized for.

Sidney Portier, one of the all time greats, largely gained acceptance to white audiences, because he was "non-threatening" to them. This is the kind of stuff Hollywood was worried about back then (and still is to some extent).

I'm not going to lie. I think it's changing. But, I'm sorry, the Oscars are still large about honoring white actors. Let me say again. I do think things are changing. Just slowly.

shakran

well let's see. Kevin Spacey won best actor for American Beauty in which he played a pedophilliac, unfaithful husband who's main goal in life is to masturbate in the shower.

Anthony Hopkins won it for Silence of the Lambs in which he played a cannibalistic serial killer.

Michael Douglas won it for Wall Street in which he played a crooked stock trader who thought nothing of committing crimes and of destroying the lives of hundreds of workers so he could make a few bucks.

F. Murray Abraham won it for Amadeus in which he played a psychopathic musician who's sole goal in life was to kill Mozart.

Louise Fletcher won it for One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest in which she played a twisted nurse who's driving ambition was to psychologically torture the mental patients in her ward.

Marlon Brando won it for The Godfather in which he played the head of a massive crime family.

Liza Minelli won it for Cabaret in which she played a girlie club floozy who'd sleep with anyone to get what she wanted.

Joanne Woodward won it for The Three Faces of Eve, in which she played a mental patient.


Gee, by your logic I guess the Oscars are portraying white people negatively too.

sadatx

Nope, that doesn't follow from my logic.

shakran

Yes, I think it does follow your logic. You pointed out a bunch of villian / slave roles that black people won for, and then made the above statement. That implied that you believe the awards were only given to these black people because they played villians / slaves well - that the Academy will only award black people when they enforce the idea that blacks are bad / worthless and whites are good / important.

So I pointed out a bunch of white people that got oscars for playing "bad" roles. By your logic, if it's an indication of racial predispositions to give a black person an award for playing a villian, then there must surely be a similar reason to award a white person for playing a villian role.

shakran

Yes, I think it does follow your logic. You pointed out a bunch of villian / slave roles that black people won for, and then made the above statement.

I pointed out a bunch of white actors who won the award for playing similar (and in many cases, much more devious) roles. That blows holes in your idea.

Also, why was Denzel Washington's award for Glory the type of role Academy members think black actors should get recognized for? Have you actually seen the film? It's whole tone pointed to the evils of both slavery and differential treatment.

sadatx

Yes, I have seen the films.


No, it doesn't blow holes in my idea.


Think about a little harder....

BuDDaH

Going to point out, how long have the Oscars been going on and WHEN did the first African American win? By the way, that wasn't an incomplete list, thats THE LIST.

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shakran

Well the first Oscars was held in 1928, and McDaniel won it in 1940. That's 64 years ago, and more than 2 decades before desegregation. Reports at the time, btw, say that McDaniel got the biggest applause of the evening.

illesturban

THANK YOU; took the words right out of my mouth. Blacks just won for the FIRST time in the best actor/actress category TWO years ago; TWO. And it's true, it seems as they only win when playing stereotypical roles. I.E. Denzel in Training Day and Halle in Monster's Ball.

I mean, I'm surprised Djimon Honsou didn't win for Amistad

Why didn't Halle win at least a NOMINATION for one of her best roles, Introducing Dorothy Dandridge?

Why didn't Denzel get any attention for THESE roles that In my opinion he should have come close to winning: MALCOLM X (probably one of THE most snubbed movies ever; it should have SWEPT the oscars in '93), The Hurricane, Remember The Titans, The Pelican Brief, and his directorial efforts in Antwone Fisher were practically ignored. All of those movies were great and deserving of more attention by the Academy. But no, what does he get it for, after ALL those great movies that he deserved an award for!? TRAINING DAY!? Puh-lease!

And don't EVEN get me started on Angela Basset. Angela is without-a-doubt THE most underrated actress and underlooked actress in Hollywood. Lets go down a list of her movies that should have gotten Oscar attention shall we? Let's see...

there's (again) MALCOLM X; she played Betty Shabbaz and tore it up! Best supporting actress all the way! Where's the love!? Then there's WHAT'S LOVE GOT TO DO WITH IT where she of course played Tina Turner like she was Tina herself; shoulda won that year for best actress; got jack. Can't forget her powerful and memorable performance in Waiting To Exhale; jipped. And then there's How Stella Got Her Groove Back. Hell if Diane Keaton can be nominated this year for Something's Gotta Give, then why was Angela shown no love for Stella? It's practically the same concept. I even think she shoulda gotten a golden globe for playing Katherine Jackson in Jacksons: An American Dream; she KILLED that role; one of her best.

You have to be honest that it IS a little strange that all of a sudden when the powerhouse black actors slip into a stereotypical role, they got more attention than when they played the "non-typical" roles (I.E. Angela in Waiting To Exhale and Denzel in Malcolm X).

OK I'm done; hehe.

xim

I used to have a freind from south africa, he was the most racist dude I've ever met. Apperantly there are still black slaves over there. We always used to call him an African American because he got so mad.

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shakran

Listen, no one's saying that there isn't still discrimination (or if they are saying that, they're delusional).

I posted the list of black insert-award-here winners because someone said that no black person had ever won. That was inaccurate. If you're gonna bitch about something, make sure you know what it is you're bitching about.

Now, there are still cases where blacks are stereotyped/discriminated against/etc. So here's my question. Do you want that to stop, or do you just want to bitch about it until the end of time? Because running around making every effort possible to show that black people are different/seperate from white people is NOT the way to end discrimination. Up to you.

FishKing

Where are we headed?

A nation who promotes equality for all!

He get 2 days for that, I seen worse get nothing.

NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND.........Good job George.

kiwiman

I too have a friend from South Africa, and he assured me you would be very hard pressed to find a slave over there. A black maid or helper is very common, however, as it is having an Asian helper in Singapore, or a latino helper in America.

By helper i mean gardener, chef, cleaner etc

BuDDaH

You made that assumption up, no one said nothing about a black person winning, I was pointing out that there were until a certain point in time, The Oscars and other ceremonies WERE WHITE ONLY.


The early Americans started this issue but not treating Black Americans fairly from the start. Now when laws are being made to enforce the issue of fairness, the white guy wants to call "Time out" and want to work out a deal. They always want to work out a deal WHEN they get FORCED. Why not do it on their on accord? They always are trying to "get over" and not come to the table straight up.

I am now going to tell you the other "half" of Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I have a Dream". (Oh, you didn't know the version you think you know was "sanitized" to make it look good?) This is also what he pointed out and still, White American back then still fumbled the ball....

"In the debate over affirmative action, critics of programs meant to remedy the nagging effects of past and current racial discrimination have often used the following passage from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s 1963 “I Have A Dream” speech to buttress their position:

“I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal.’ I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even in the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.”

That was Dr. King’s dream.

But a year later, in his 1964 book, “Why We Can’t Wait,” Dr. King talked about what he believed to be the reality of the disadvantages that racial bias forced upon blacks – and what he thought it would take to repair the damage:

“Among the many vital jobs to be done, the nation must not only radically readjust its attitude toward the Negro in the compelling present, but must incorporate in its planning some compensatory consideration for the handicaps he has inherited from the past. It is impossible to create a formula for the future which does not take into account that our society has been doing something special against the Negro for hundreds of years. How then can he be absorbed into the mainstream of American life if we do not do something special for him now, in order to balance the equation and equip him to compete on a just and
equal basis?

“Whenever this issue of compensatory or preferential treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree; but he should ask nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man is entered at the starting line in a race three hundred years after another man, the first would have to perform some impossible feat in order to catch up with his fellow runner.”

How true....

The way I see "White America" is trying to keep on what they have been doing and not even trying to give a little, and Minority Americans fighting to get some of what they should have been getting from the beginning..

Equality.

P.S.
Don't take the reference "White America" out of hand, it isn't to generalize.....

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Seaver

Yes, we know the way you see everyone as their color. What we've been saying is because a few people of our color fucked up we're being punished.

It's not give and take, its they took from you, you take from me. If a person robs my house is it ok for me to rob from yours?

billege

Correct. Does the fact that black actors have recently won, mean that progress is not being made? Are we to discount the fact that they HAVE won, because they didn’t win earlier? I think if change is a process there must be a starting point.

I also think that Halle winning an Oscar has more impact than her winning a Source Award. If we assume that racism is still prevalent, it should follow that making progress in the mainstream should be the goal; if, that is, our assumed overall goal is an Equality. Which is something that must be in the mainstream for the definition of equality to be met.
To achieve that goal a group must affect the largest amount of people where they live. Blacks recognizing blacks does build support within the black community, which should be used to leverage winnings in the mainstream community.


Early Americans didn’t treat anyone fairly from the start. The Indians got screwed, the immigrants that came after got screwed, the Asians got screwed, and the Hispanics got screwed. The important difference was that most of the “screwies” were white, and thus did not get screwed as badly. Slavery is also a differentiating factor.
Since that is a factor concerning blacks in America, it should separate the treatment of blacks from other groups.
In all fairness, I think I can say that the white man <I>is</I> doing it on his own accord. It’d be fair to say that the establishment is still white. The establishment created and passed the affirmative action laws. Blacks protested, whites listened. Maybe we could be optimistic enough about this to believe that whites even learned, and changed. Maybe we could grab that progress with both hands and build on it. Would you say blacks did that? Where are your black activists now? Where are the mass protests? Why did the tide of change fall back?
I don’t know the answers to those questions.
After the 60’s especially, blacks made progress. Evidenced now by black Fortune 500 company CEO’s, etc.
Would you say that progress has stopped? Stagnated? Or, are blacks discounting progress made, ignoring what could still be done, and focusing on the past failures in the white man’s process of atonement?

I think that’s part of it.
Complaining about what didn’t happen is a waste for all of us. It deafens blacks to what could happen tomorrow; it deafens us all to what we could do; what we should be doing.

Yeah, it’s true.
I ask you, though, what do you intend to have happen?

I’ll agree that the starting line analogy is apt, but do you think the white man will stop running? Does Black America expect the white guy to take a Gatorade break?
I just earned myself a new job, with the degree I worked and paid for. Am I to give half my earnings to a random minority person? Maybe insist my new job be given to a minority?

Those questions are ridiculous for a reason. I’m trying to point out that no one can call a time-out in this particular race. I’ve got my mouth to feed, and I’ve got my wife’s mouth to think about too. There is just no way the race is going to stop so someone can catch up. The world does not work that way.

That doesn’t mean a time out isn’t appropriate, but there’s a big difference between what should happen, and what will.

I don’t know how to convince a white majority that they should give up. Especially because I don’t think they see themselves as “in this together.” I seriously do not think of any white guy, or girl, as my “white brother” or “sister.”

Please…that’s plain absurd.

I compete with anyone in the race with me because I must. If I stop, my white skin will not feed, clothe, or bathe me.
There is no "white america," there is just America. No white people I know consider me part of some white frat.

Well, yeah, America is doing what it has been doing. Except that statement is only true if you discount that blacks aren't slaves, they can vote, they can sue, they can be lawyers and judges, they can have educations, they have the honor of being the group to make our country recognize and pass civil rights laws, they have affirmative action laws, and they have more and more black leaders than ever.

Yeah, if you discount all the hard work YOUR fellows did, America is doing the same thing it has always done.
America is a bunch of people trying to feed themselves. I honestly don’t believe that the white Americans have put aside differences to keep the black man down.
I honestly hope that ALL our Americans can realize that we are one country, and it’s us against the world for now. If we intend to win, we’d BETTER work together.



I brought up progress, and I’d just like to make sure we all realize it’s something we have to do together. Thursday at work a black guy, in reference to a piece of power equipment I was using (and had set momentarily aside) said, “It’s black history month, I don’t give a fuck, I’ll take it if I want.”

While I realize this particular guy is an asshole, and not the black race, he sure isn’t helping ANYONE with that kind of crap comment.

I think I bring him up to remind us all that it doesn't require a special skin color to hold up equality.

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j-man

English-Australian....Now that sounds silly, but is'nt it the same thing?......Spanish-phillipino.......Irish-New zealander........where will it end ? Hi I'm an Earthling-marsian ?!

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shakran

I've been hesitant to bring this up, but since this debate seems unable to die. . .

http://www.uwec.edu/Geography/Ivogel...s/charles3.htm

there are several other corroborating educational articles that confirm this - in the United States, free blacks owned black slaves.

Now, the reason I bring this up is to point out that to insist that white people should make reparations to black people is not only racist in the common-sense department, but it is also racially unethical as it penalizes white people who's ancestors never owned slaves while black people who's ancestors did own slaves not only are not penalized, but would benefit just as black people who's ancestors WERE slaves would.

Discuss.

Lebell

Well,

I've also hesitated to mention, but whites generally didn't just land in Africa and capture blacks (in spite of what "Roots" would have you believe.)

No, they bought their slaves from other African tribes.

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shakran

Quite true, and in fact there is documented evidence that (at that time) slavery was common in Africa.

What galls me is that these facts are buried under the rug in modern day diversity discussions in an obvious smear campaign to paint white people as having been the root of all injustice. In fact, that's not the case, and that fact should be admitted by both sides.

Mojo_PeiPei

Whats more is slavery is still practiced in Africa.

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Rekna

should the NBA and the NFL have white quotas?

smooth

If corporations that exist today can be proven to have profitted from slavery, regardless if they are owned by black or white people, then they should pay reparations to the descendents of the people they enslaved.

This doesn't extend to all whites, and it doesn't extend from a single corporation to all blacks. Merely, if an existing entity can be proven to have directly benefitted (or utilized) slavery, then it ought to reimburse the lineage of the people it violated.

In this capitalist society, aren't the earnings, at least in part, of current corporations based on the capital it amassed in the past. If those assets were ill-gotten, then it shouldn't be allowed to continue to profit from such gains.

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"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

sexymama

Having just watched the series with my 8th graders last year, "Roots" does show blacks selling other tribes to the whites.

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It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

XenuHubbard

This type of stuff confuses me. But then, I'm a Scandinavian-Ugrian Caucasian.

Just wait until i apply for Taiwanese citizenship. Then I'll even confuse myself...

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"What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

Lebell

Oh, sorry.

It's been so long, I didn't remember.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Bill O'Rights

Um...yeah, I can remember when it first aired, too. In 1977!! You're dating yourself, man.

Now, back to to the very original topic. Now that Charlize Theron has won an Academy Award, for Best Actress, does that now make two African American women to have won that award?

Yeah...I also squirt lighter fluid on already burning charcoal.

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"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

smooth

Since race is a dead issue in the US, why did the press think that the "first preson of African descent to be nominated" was a story?

Most interesting to me, however, is that they were referring to Djimon Hounsou In America--there wasn't much mention of Charlize Theron as being from South Africa.

I think it's weird, though, of you to point to someone like Charlize as evidence of equality.

Here's an interesting page from Indiana U's page:

http://www.indiana.edu/~bfca/features/oscars.html

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

shakran

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

smooth

I don't know, have you seen a picture of her:



You don't think that evokes a different response than this:

smooth

Oh yeah, that's Charlize up top and Djimon below (portrayed as Cinque in Amistad). Both from Africa--do I really need to remind you that South Africa, as every place in the world I am aware of, has a history steeped in racism?

billege

I thought he was using that to point to the original discussion about the term "African American." Which, though Charlize is certainly not black, she is.

In fact she is a recent and valid example of the semantic games we play to avoid saying "black," or whatever phrase is deemed offensive this week.

Back in the day "Negro" was considered a polite form of adress, "black" was insulting. At one point "colored" was a decent way to go. Now, "negro" would be offensive, "colored" would be offensive, and "black" is sorta okay; and, we officially prefer "African American." Charlize is a pretty good example of how using "African American" is flawed.

It's all one big semantic game <i>around</i> the important issues.

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I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

shakran

mmmhmm. That's what I thought you meant. As billege pointed out, you want African Americans to win Oscars, but not WHITE African Americans. In fact, you want "African Americans" who have no African descent to win it.

What you REALLY want is for BLACK people to win an Oscar, so why the hell can't you just SAY it? Theron is an African American. If you really wanted African Americans to win the award you'd be happy.

IMHO we should dispense with the semantic bullshit that we've become so enamored with lately and start working on the REAL racial problems.

smooth

So I just reread both my latest posts. I did use terms like white and black and my pictures were obviously illustrating the phenotypical differences between the two Oscar nominees (wherein the WHITE one won--there I typed it!--my apologies for the readers who couldn't make that conclusion based on what I already posted).

This thread, along with your and billege's points, are predicated upon the idea that a white african has as much claim to an award intended for black victims of racism as a black african, or a black US citizen with ethnic roots in africa.

That's semantics. So if you want to stop with "the semantic bullshit," no one is preventing you from starting with your next post.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman