Cimarron29414

Woah, check out the new guys...and to think I was accused of derailing.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Rekna

I'm not sure if it as mentioned before but Gallup just released a post-passage poll. This pole states that 49% believe the reform is a good thing and 40% believe it is a bad thing.

ASU2003

Except the 'braindead retards' came up with a plan that will improve things and may very possibly lead to lower costs to the government. Their plan wasn't even a 'Karl Marx' style government run single payer system. It just sets up some basic regulations over the private health insurance companies.

The Republicans came up with a half-ass attempt and no plan that would actually work. Then Sean Hannity said yesterday that "they (republicans) could have fixed health insurance if they wanted to." But, for some reason when they controlled the congress and Presidency, it didn't come up. Things like Health Savings Accounts (with horrible interest rates even when they were high), and high deductibles did nothing for people who were worried about losing coverage, not being able to afford it, or worried about paying for COBRA if they lost their job. Their plan was basically, if you are rich or from a well off family, then you can use your money to pay for the best care, if you don't have coverage then you aren't worth our time.

ottopilot

OK roachboy... your quick-to-slander demagoguery is once again like clock-work. It seems you may also be a fan of "rules for radicals". If not, you should give it a quick read, you're a natural I would expect to see this type of a response from a participant, not as a moderator. IMO, these roles often appear blurred, but (hopefully) not purposely divisive.

I don't believe anything I've said is typical (verbatim) of the fringe corner you tend to quickly paint folks in. I believe you, as with dc_dux, are much too invested ideologically to be tolerant or objective. The same with the conservatives that also regurgitate their herd-speak. This thread reads like a Media Matters or Media Research Center seminar.

Points have been made regarding details. And they are often managed (as in your post) with with the intent to ridicule and deflect, while entertaining yourself and the like-minded with tired stereotypes. I'd say your response fits nicely with your description of "reactionary grouphate". As in countless other threads where the bobble-heads are suddenly presented with a different perspective, vigilance is maintained by quickly isolating, mocking and marginalizing the "target" (adversary).

Fine, play the game. However, the relationships of power and influence I presented do exist. But I think you already know this. It's not in your best interest to entertain such whimsy.

If persons and organizations operate openly in the arena of politics, the people will adopt or choose an ideology they trust. Open discussion, discourse, conducted honorably within a procedural framework... where ever that leads, the destination should withstand scrutiny. But this is not how the heath care bill, stimulus, cap and trade, and climate legislation were crafted. Some of the groups I mentioned had significant influence in both the language and purpose of the legislation.

There was no transparency, and the associations of influence from these groups is highly suspect. If you truly believe otherwise, then we will never agree. However I'm fairly confident you know exactly what I'm talking about.

---------- Post added at 01:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

I believe if you honestly look at these groups, the people behind them, and the level of input to the legislation, you would see a the scale of influence from these entities. You may be happy with that. If so, be blissful in your assessment.

I responded to a question about my assertions of power political influence in the crafting and promotion of the health agenda. The charts represent actual structures behind these relationships. This is the just the organizational mapping. It gets more unseemly as you drill down to the individuals, their history and affiliations, and relationships with the administration and Congress. But again... if you are comfortable knowing all this... then enjoy your "free" healthcare.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

roachboy

otto.

i have a book written by the reverend billy joe hargis published in oklahoma city 1963 called "the far left" that demonstrates in exactly the way you demonstrate that the entirely of the government (federal state and local) and media (television radio newspapers) and non-protestant denominations of religious persuasion (take your pick) were all dominated by Communist Party members who were on the payroll of the kremlin. the book is chock full of charts and lists and other "evidence" of this vast leftist conspiracy to overthrow all that's righteous and true about the (protestant fundamentalist) u.s. of a. a land that's free to not allow access to 30 million citizens to basic health care because they cant afford insurance so they should die.

the cover's particularly great; it has a white statue of liberty (what else could she be?) with a knife run through her heart bleeding great drops of patriotic blood as she weeps.

i keep it on my bookshelf. it make me laugh.

so does this entire conservative armageddeon time tea-bagger carnival that the ultra-right has managed to put into motion in order to effect a power shift inside the republican party by pulling it even further to the right and themselves something to talk about that does not inevitably refer back to the fucking disaster that was the period of the last conservative dominated government.

i've read through this thread. i find the level of conservative attacks on this bill to be unbelievable. i'd have written more often but much of what you folks have been posting is so entirely off the wall that's i find it alternatively funny (but not as funny as the weeping statue of liberty) and pathetic (because, well, it is).

but when i open up "the far left" by the reverend billy james hargis and read through it, the **same** language is everywhere.

so otto you may not personally have drifted into some john birch society place---you didn't have to---the marginal right has come to you.

it's old school. look for yourself. track down any birch society pamphlet. that conservatives don't know the history of the own movement really doesn't speak well about conservatives.


as for attempting to use my mod status as some cheap device, when i am operating from that position you'll know.
when i am not operating from it, i'm a member like you.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

flstf

It seems to me that many liberal groups did not get very much of what they wanted in this bill. Single payer was taken off the plate in the very beginning and the public option was discarded shortly thereafter. In my opinion this bill demonstrates the power of the insurance industry, drug companies and other special interests which finance many of our politicians.

dippin

So groups with common interests get together and try to influence politics and policy? And sometimes they succeed? Isn't that how democracy is supposed to work?

And are they really doing this in secret when they have webpages with missions statements? Or are you some sort of undercover agent who had to dig deep to find all of this out by yourself?

Cimarron29414

Wow, that's a dramatic statement. Talk about blurring the lines of reality. I won't speak for everyone opposed to federal government healthcare, but I can say with great certainty that I don't think they should die. Unfortunately, they will though. So will you. So will I.

I'm keeping a scratch pad and this will be the fourth time I have agreed with roachboy. He can and will take a punch.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

WinchesterAA

Have you people really never been scammed? Never gotten the shaft? Never gotten screwed, taken, had, made a fool of?

How, pray tell, is it so hard to see that there are crooks in the whitehouse, and there have been every since its establishment.

What is different now from its inception, is that the system is hundreds of years progressed, and the issues that were being dealt with way back when have mostly been conquered. NOW, with GREATER NUMBERS, and a DUMBER, MORE CORRUPT PUBLIC, they can whack away at more supporting structures, and send the country further into decay..

What do I mean decay? I mean instead of reading 27 different stories about rape and murder, then reading 15 different stories about child rape and murder, you'll be reading 33 different stories about murder, and 35 different stories about "unlawful" kid sex and subsequent dismemberment. It's only unlawful for a little while longer, as the decay gets worse and worse.

I mean instead of randomly taking a tour of a school, and witnessing 3 fights, 12 kids that are obviously on drugs, 42 pregnant teenagers, 8 deadbeat teachers that buy drugs from the kids, and 2 assistant principles that are having sex with their faculty, you'll be going through school and seeing television ads promoting such behavior, and even more participation, and even more unusual activities that have little to do with being human, much less education.

I mean, THE SOUL OF THIS COUNTRY IS ROTTING, and you wish to speak to me as if its the most wonderful smell.. I vomit at the smell of death and decay!

dippin

What, exactly, does this have to do with the apparent vast left wing conspiracy that has overrun this country?

I am not talking about whether the people elected truly believe the things they say to certain groups when they are pandering to them. But when a union organizes and tries to elect a pro union representative, that is not some seedy underhanded thing, it is actually what democracy is supposed to be about.

rahl

This is why there can be no intelligent discussion. When you can't point to specific passages in the actual text of the bill to post why you disagree(be it fundamentaly or idealogicaly)we end up with 7+pages of things like this.

I'm not specifically pointing you out Winchester, just that virtually all the opposition to this bill is the same. And it sounds something like this:Those against "rabble rabble rabble SOCIALISM" Those for "there's nothing in there that's socialistic" Those against "rabble rabble rabble your killing america" Those for "How?" those against "rabble rabble rabble DICTATOR, THE GOVN"T IS TAKING OVER HEALTHCARE" Those for "go and read the bill, there's nothing in there about the govn't taking over healthcare, it's still privately owned" Those against "rabble rabble rabble I DON"T NEED TO READ IT, I CAN TELL WHEN AMERICA IS DIEING"

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

roachboy

i'm just working with the conservative arguments, trying to figure out what they're really on about by swapping out the screen-claims for what's actually happening. that's where things arrive. it's a simple logical procedure.

my own views are quite different from this. i think the existing law went nowhere near far enough. i support free universal access to basic health care as a fundamental human right. i think the debate was badly framed not only in political and ethical terms, but also in that the english/canadian model was posited as the only alternative to the american and that simply on the basis of linguistic chauvinism so far as i can tell. the french system is far more flexible, far better in terms of service delivery and is a more viable alternative than the single payer. but that wasn't the debate. language chauvinism is a pitiful thing to allow to control central aspects of a debate this important, but there we are.

i think the communications strategy about this whole thing was a fiasco.
i think the fact that **anyone** is listening to conservative dissociation in opposition to this legislation at this point is testimony to just how badly done was the framing of this issue.

and i think the right is becoming genuinely dangerous at this point. were i in power, things would be getting ugly. i do not believe there should be a tolerance for fascism on free speech grounds. i do not believe racism should be understood as acceptable speech. but that's just me.

and this

is drama queen horseshit.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

silent_jay

This always makes me chuckle, the sky is still apparently falling on some people on this forum, hope they remember their unbrellas when they go out. Reminds me of high school girls, oh my god my life is over, I have a zit.......

RogueGypsy

I was staying out of this one, but reading this thread I've had the same thought's as above. But, pertaining to both sides of the argument. Frankly I down loaded and began to read the health care bill. By page 250 my head was swimming. There are so many amendments it's hard to follow.

Both sides of the argument are based on heresay. I don't recall a single line of the bill being post by those for or against. Of course that would mean posting the lines that amend or rescend the original line as well.

What I see here is the same thing I've seen and heard for the past year:

1. Conservatives think Oblahblah is the anti-christ.
2. Conservatives are creating conspiracies in their heads.
3. Conservatives want poor people to die.

1. Liberals think Oblahblah is the savior.
2. Liberals think the world is rainbows and unicorns.
3. Liberals want to save everyone with other peoples money.

From my point of view, if there is some sort of conspiracy, this type of debate is exactly how one would want to hide it.

For a minute forget about the '30 million' uninsured. Yes it is a huge number, but it is only 1/10th of the population. It is unrealistic and counter productive to cater to such a small segment of society. Remember too, they do have access to health care through emergency rooms. They are not left out of the system.

Does anyone wonder why it takes 2000 pages to introduce what has been tagged here as a 'basic' health care reform? What would a comprehensive reform bill look like? 10,000 pages? Why do the government and union systems remain untouched? Where is all this money really coming from? Why overhaul something that works at 90%, wouldn't rational thinking dictate you fix the 10% that's not working? What is going to happen when 100,000,000 illegal aliens are granted amnesty and introduced to the program? Why can't the bill be written in a readable manor?

Politically I'm just about dead center, with a slight lean to the right. Which I believe is what would best represent this country in government (or a slight lean to the left, slight being the operative word here on both sides). This bill is pushing everyone to the extremes in an effort to make a point.

I for one, would like to get back to the OP's format. But for both sides. If you aren't posting an actual line from the bill, it's simply opinion. Supporting or not, post an actual line to argue. What do you say??

Meanwhile I'm going back to melt my brain with another 250 pages of double talk and amendments.

Have fun.


...

..

__________________
Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

WinchesterAA

Ya'll missed it.. My post aint about the bill in question individually, but about all bills of similar nature that have ever been passed.

.....and the significance of my first line is that if you'll notice, ALL THE BILLS go through this same process. Whitehouse will talk about it, forums will rant and rave about it, and the same damn conclusions will be drawn by the same people over and over again. YET NOTHING EVER CHANGES.

There is more here than the bill, the people arguing over the bill, and the speculation as to what the bill might actually "do".

Seriously... these bills...

They aren't the friendly, do-gooder processes that people perceive them as, they are indeed ways for people to take money from other people in ways that would otherwise, were it not for the law, be illegal.

In this way, the individuals of the country are more and more placed in a position of "fight dirty or suffer economic failure." This, I will describe as a rot of sorts, and with particular relation to the "soul of" or "spirit of" or "enthusiasm of the individuals within the country for" the country.

To say it another way, "The individuals of the country must accept that their actions in almost all situations related to the compliance with government mandates will impact and degrade another in his efforts to do the exact same thing, as required by law. "


These situations cause a lack of respect for the law, which are directly absorbed by the children of this country, who quickly get the idea that, "Hey, if my parents hate it so much, why do I HAVE TO MESS WITH IT AT ALL?"

When that happens, it becomes possible to inject further social disease into the system by way of rules and regulations regarding "bad children" that "don't care about anything." Once that happens, kids belong to the government as much as their parents do, and as such, are almost entirely separate from their parents.


I ask you, seriously, am I wrong in my observations? Is this not true? If it is true, is this not terrible? Does this not matter? Is it acceptable to us all to live indifferently from one another, caring not about any subject but those created and discussed by our "leaders"?

Is it acceptable to ignore that which is most threatening, in favor of that which is said to be most threatening?

For an alternate discussion on this very same topic, please head to the philosophy sections thread -

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...ed-humans.html

pan6467

Take this for what's it worth, but for my inner peace and as I am learning more about myself... I have to say this:

After a few days of cooling down, I want to truly wholeheartedly appologize to anyone my rants on the health care bill may have offended. Politics and I have always been volatile and I tend to lose my cool. That is no excuse for the language and nastiness I spewed. Again, I am deeply sorry.

End threadjack.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Cimarron29414

I'm curious about this concept. How exactly does one make it free? If you can truly make it free, I am totally on board with you. Please elaborate.

---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

Pussy.

I keed. I keed.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

WinchesterAA

Also clarification may be needed...

Free as in freedom or free as in free beer?

pan6467

I am what I eat..

Every year I celebrate my sobriety from gambling (March 20th, was 11 years), I make a promise to work on bettering my life in 1 way. I decided this year I was to learn to control my tongue and passion and work them in positive ways. It's a lesson in humility and working to better me as a person.

Dissent can be and should be shown more civilly and not in negative ways. I allowed myself to be a negative person in my dissent. I was wrong to.

Again, end threadjack.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

roachboy

this isn't rocket science, folks. free as in a decision is made by the electorate through representatives that allocating resources presently allocated in other ways so that basic health care is provided free of charge. then those resources are redirected.

the french system is two-tiered: free access to basic health care and compulsory private insurance for more advanced medical treatment the cost of which is sliding, so that the poor pay little or nothing and those who can afford it pay more.

the implementation of this also entailed some changes in the professional standing of doctors, a relative levelling in the hierarchies of doctors and nurses (relative to the united states), changes in salary structure and education (medical school does not come with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt)...but it can be done.

and the french system is rated consistently as the best in the world.

it's a system-level decision that can be made, that has been made, that's been implemented and that works better than the american model in terms of care delivery and in terms of research and development.

go figure.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Cimarron29414

So by "free", you mean that the government taxes the people with money and then uses that money to pay for services offered to people who do not have money?

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

roachboy

same way that things like military expenditures and prison construction happens, yes.

you know, the same way that programs that manly conservatives tend to conflate with social programs they like (killing people, putting them in prison)

btw if you click here:

ICPS :School of Law :King's College London : World Prison Brief : King's College London

you can look at international statistics concerning prison populations and amounts spent on prison construction by country. the united states emprisons more people than any other country on earth.
there's something seriously fucked up about the priorities that allow for that outcome.

but i have no problem with democratic socialism except that typically it's too conservative.
so i doubt we're going to agree on anything.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Idyllic

VERBATIM from bill H.R. 3590

So, The Secretary, “Federal Government,” in conjunction with the Doctors, and the Stake Holders, or insurance companies shall all work together to discuss how best to get you out of the hospital as quickly as possible and reduce your return, (obviously this will save them money, correct) All sounds good until you realize the control they will have in this process of “helping you to get better swiftly and stay that way, lets see how they will so graciously help you.

So we will have “highly trained” individuals who will obviously be in this more for “our blessed help” than their own money, quotas, or answering to the Government and the Insurance company as to why they failed and you became a burden once again on the new governmental health care system.

You will be monitored as they will do everything within their power to reduce the number of readmits, as well as the number of admits to begin with.

You can bet your PCM(your new Primary Care Manager) will document if you smoke, drink, exercise, etc…. and this information will be available to other “professionals” who will attempt to reduce health care uses by reducing health risk issues.

You will be that health care risk, somebody will be contacting you to help you with your problems, so as to help all our people reduce the health care bill you must also participate not only in your share of payment but in your share of healthy lifestyle participation, so all Americans can live a better life, you to must participate in these programs, or maybe we will penalize you. These go hand in hand.

If you think this will stop at your door step and you can remain anonymity in the new nation of “support” I fear you will be greatly disappointed, It comes to my attention to ask all of you who think this is the greatest gift, to tell me how many times you have had a governmental agency show up at your doorstep because you receive assistance from their funding, it is a mandatory inclusion to have physical social assistance directives arrive knocking when you receive free assistance from the government, we have let them pass it, and when they come knocking, you will be required to open your door.

Why do I say this, my son received assistance for speech therapy through the government as a Tricare benefit referral by my governmental paid Dr. Before any assistance was granted, I had to submit to a in house meeting with the speech therapist and a home counselor, then we had weekly to bi-weekly in home speech therapy for over a year, when he enrolled into government paid child assisted programs for children with developmental disabilities, again before he was admitted an in home interview was required.

The government is going to take every opportunity to protect its assets and by that it needs to assure its investments are sound, you will be its investment, you will be sound.

Ask me about social services and how lovely that arena is, how great the governmental agencies of care and fostering for the safety of your children are. There is simply nothing as great as private practice, private assistance, private, private, private. That privileged assistance will become an exclusive club retained only for those who can afford it, and after all these new taxes and fees and mandated purchases, we will all be broke so don't expect any privacy, especially if you ask for help.

The realities of what you are signing away when you receive you brand new Health care Card with your special number will be less a gift and more a responsibility to the government, don’t you remember the most fundamental saying in situations of fraud, if it sound to good to be true…… and NOTHING, NO, NOTHING IS FREE.

There is still a lot more of this bill to read, and yes I will interpret it from the viewpoint I feel best answers my questions, but at least I am questioning this “law” I am not just looking to the sky and dancing for the new free bandages falling from it.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

silent_jay

Not to be an asshole or to get this thread off track, but doesn't this happen in every thread pan? You rant, rave, make false claims, like Kucinich saying he was browbeaten, ask for answers, get said answers, ignore said answers, then repeat the cycle all over, then either blog an apology, or make a post saying you made a mistake, and were emotional in your posts, like that makes all the falsehoods you've claimed go...poof, I mean wouldn't it be easier to just I don't know use facts rather than emotion to get your point across in the first place? You say you're tryingto better yourself and that's great, I respect you for doing that, but making the same emotional posts over and over again doesn't help you do that.

Cimarron29414

See, why do you have to go there? "Manly conservatives?" I'm really trying to have a dialogue here...

As for prisons, I actually agree with you. That's because of our ridiculous drug laws. I'll bet if you eliminate those in prison on petty drug charges, the numbers are pretty equal. However, I haven't researched.

You limp-wristed marxist, you.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

rahl

Idyllic, Your post started out to be fairly objective until you brought up your experience with tricare. After that you then made assumptions about the new system(which is still private)that the "man" is gonna be knockin on all our doors tellin us what kind of care we get. Might have well just said "Death Panel" and have been done with it. If these things don't exist in other countries where there is actually true socialised medicine, why on earth do you think it would happen to a system that is still privately owned?

As for tricare, I understand that with ANY system of insurance there will be horror stories. I sell supplemental insurance, generally used to fill the gaps that mainstream health insurance doesn't cover. When speaking with employee's during their enrollments(I usually speak with about 5 thousand employee's a year) I come across a small percentage who are in the military and have tricare. They NEVER buy anything from me. Their answer is always "nope don't need it, I've got tricare" This is also true for retired military who also have govn't benefits. They completely outshine most "cadillac" health plans. They won't even sign up for their companies group plan, even when it's 100% employer paid(which I admit is very rare anymore)

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

Idyllic

Did you happen to read the part where Tricare forwarded me to the government services, the government ran the Special Ed school my son attended, not Tricare. I needed a referral from a Dr. to enroll him just as any parent will require a Dr. referral for any child with a disability to receive free services. Tricare had nothing to do with this except to refer me to the governmental funded assistance program. This is the system.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

rahl

You need a referral from your primary care dr. now to see any doctor other than him, or an ER visit. Otherwise they will either deny the claim, or pay a small percentage of the bill. That is nothing new.

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

Idyllic

You still miss my point, once you step into the government assisted realm you cross over from the concepts of private, period. If you want to go to a private dr. you will pay higher premiums I'm sure, if you only purchase the governmental buy in insurance (at minimum mandate) you will be going to the hospitals that will be under the umbrellas of the government, it is in the bill, they will pay the hospitals they will pay the dr.s those will be the places the governmental insurance is welcome.

Just as with tricare, my choices are limited if I want to pay less, I can choose whoever I want but the more private and elite, the more it costs, simple. This is a business and the government will protect it's assets to the best of it's abilities, and we all know the government runs a ship exactly as tight as they want it. You will see, when "I just never imagined" becomes reality, this sentiment will echo every where when it come to this Health care reform bills' effectiveness. I don't have to be dramatic with the 'death panel" scare tactics, I just have to be patient and listen. I won't hear anything I didn't already know will occur, we all know it, we just would rather make lemonade, but remember it's still just sugared water and lemons in the end., just easier to swallow, kinda like kool aid.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

WinchesterAA

Idyllic, could you enumerate some of the reasons why "more private" positively correlates with "more expensive" when discussing healthcare?

rahl

And again, if this is not the case anywhere else that actually has socialised health care, why would this be the case here when it's still private?

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

pan6467

One I could say your animosity towards me leads you to dirct negative comments my way in every thread, trying to make it personal.

Two, I am not apologizing or backing down from what I said or believe, I am solely apologizing for the WAY I said things. That is all.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

silent_jay

Pan, I have no animosity towards you, I don't even know you, so why would I waste my time being angry at someone I don't know aside from posts they make on a forum?

How come everyone else who disagrees with your opinion is fine, yet me it's trying to make it personal? I have negative comments about your opinion as people have negative comments about my opinion, it happens pan, I have no negative comments about you as as person, as already stated I don't know you. I have never personally attacked you on this forum, you've tried to play victim a lot but never have I attacked you, the mods have never warned me, and trust me, they have before if I cross the line, I get a warning.

You made this personal when you made this apology, you made it about yourself, I merely pointed out this seems to be a trend with you in the majority of threads, I mean am I lying about that? The truth is in this forum, ranting, emotional posting is the norm for you.

dippin

You do understand that there is no public option, right? As such, there is no "umbrellas of the government," right?

Also, last I checked Tricare is not mandatory. It is mind boggling that someone who is and continues to be part of a public single payer system can consistently keep saying the kind of stuff you say about public healthcare. This is not to pick on you personally, but the way you are voting with your money, electing to stay on tricare, tells me a LOT more than anything you post here. And given the proportion of people who stay on tricare for their entire lives vs the proportion of people not eligible for tricare who dump their insurance companies after a while, I must say that it really can't be that bad.

dc_dux

pan....you think Kucininch was brow beaten into writing what is reported to be his first fund-raising letter for the DCCC ever?
Just messin with you.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

filtherton

I'm just saying that the ability to draw up organizational diagrams doesn't amount to much. It doesn't surprise me that a lot of lefty organizations have some people in common. I imagine you could draw up similar charts showing the connection between different companies for any arbitrarily chosen industry. You could even probably make ominous statements about the histories of those involved.

No offense, but after seeing some of the other pieces of evidence you find credible in this health care discussion, I'm not in a big hurry to chase you down this particular rabbit hole. If that means ignorantly submitting to a new secret socialist order of fascist communists, then I'll deal.

dc_dux

Deal me in.

A bill that meets many of Obama's campaign promises on the issue with the exception of the MOST liberal or progressive provisions is somehow the result of influence of the vast left wing movement?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Baraka_Guru

The ironic thing is, on a socialist scale of 1 to 10, this bill rates a "what the fuck are the insurance companies doing in there?!"

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

filtherton

I know. Anyone who calls this thing socialist is either ignorant or a liar. I imagine most card carrying socialists resent the way they've been associated with the current administration.

ASU2003

I still think most of the opposition to this bill came from people who want the current administration to fail so they will get the power back in Nov and in 2012. They could have added every single Republican idea and scraped just about every positive thing from this bill, but they would still have been against it.

I will say that Idyllic did a good job arguing with the actual text up there a few posts ago. But, quite frankly, I don't have a problem if the private health insurance companies offer and give assistance to people who want to become healthier, and give information to those who choose not to.

And if you had no health insurance for your son, but made just enough to disqualify for gov. assistance, then he wouldn't have been able to get any care, and that's not right.