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04-24-2009, 12:52 PM | #121 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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04-24-2009, 02:44 PM | #122 (permalink) |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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Don't laugh but my wife and I discussed this the other day. Someone has kidnapped your child and buried her in a sealed coffin. They caught an escaped child murderer who admits he did it and the evidence is overwhelming that he did and there is only an hour or so before the air runs out. The only way he will talk is if the feds give him immunity for the other 20 kids they have proven he has killed so far and they aren't budging. He has vowed to kill many more children if given the opportunity. Time is running out, my wife's question, what can be done to make him talk? No matter what the feds offer he will not talk. Now there is only 45 minutes left.....tick tick tick
We could go on and on with other scenarios, planted nukes, etc... I guess the argument against using torture tactics even with overwhelming evidence and an admission of guilt is because we can never be 100% sure until we find the child dead or alive. However we know he is afraid of water and it won't permanently harm him so just maybe...tick tick tick.... |
04-24-2009, 02:51 PM | #123 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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That's just it, if you torture him he's just as likely to send you to the wrong place. He might do it out of spite or he may do it just because he wants the pain and/or suffering to stop. We want to give your child the best chance, so we'd avoid torture. We'd use something demonstrated with a higher probability of success in situations similar to the one you'd be in. I don't claim to know what those might be, but I know torture isn't on the list.
Last edited by Willravel; 04-24-2009 at 03:03 PM.. |
04-24-2009, 03:24 PM | #125 (permalink) |
pigglet pigglet
Location: Locash
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Well, flstf, I understand will's point about the efficacy of torture, or lack thereof. I also understand that in your theoretical window, there isn't much time for bonding or positive reinforcement. This isn't really my main point on the topic of the thread, but I'd like to point out that there is a difference between what happens off the records, and what is official policy of our society. In your case, if you personally decided you don't have time for this shit - your daughter is about to die - and you decided to starting beating the bejusus out of this hypothetical child killer, I personally couldn't blame you. Maybe a cop does it for you; he has children of his own, and he wants to keep your girl alive. I can see that - I can't condone it, but I can see it. I might do the same thing. Here's the catch; in that situation, if I decided to start wailing on the fucker, or waterboard him, or drag him behind my car or whatever - I would implicitly be ready to accept the consequences. Sure, I might try to get out of them, but I wouldn't be surprised when I was prosecuted for it. I'd probably go for temporary insanity, and maybe I'd get a reduced sentence.
That's different from an organized policy directed from top levels of administration, who are responsible for setting the tone of how interrogations are conducted. If you set the bar at borderline torture, or farther at 'holy shit that's torture,' what do you think is happening that isn't set down on paper? I don't think you can set up torture as the official policy of your interrogation techniques, and expect not to be hit with human rights violations. I'm sure that it will sometimes happen, regardless - but in those cases the people involved shouldn't have instruction to do so, and they should be ready to take the hit if caught.
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04-24-2009, 03:25 PM | #126 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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My point is that there are better options, options with a significantly higher chance of success. You could torture the guy out of desperation, but you'd be bypassing a lot of other, better options. Wouldn't you want to use a strategy with the highest likelihood of success?
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04-24-2009, 03:51 PM | #127 (permalink) | |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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04-24-2009, 04:36 PM | #128 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Let's say you have a bomb you need to diffuse. You're well trained, know all about diffusing bombs, but you're kinda stumped this time. Do you stand up, unzip your fly and urinate on it? Urination can theoretically short the electronics of a bomb, I suppose. There are undoubtedly better options, but urination is one of those options you keep open in case you're completely out of time.
Torture is that urination option: it stands almost no chance at working, there are many much better options available to you, and you lose your dignity in the process. |
04-24-2009, 06:47 PM | #129 (permalink) |
Eccentric insomniac
Location: North Carolina
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...The well trained people felt harsh interrogation techniques were appropriate and productive. If the bomb expert decided to snip the blue wire, why would you second guess him?
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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence |
04-24-2009, 06:57 PM | #130 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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It's the opposite of that, actually. Well trained people have come forward, people that actually did the torturing everyone is talking about, and have said unequivocally that it was worse than useless. Who are you to question what they experienced, the informed conclusions they've come to?
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04-24-2009, 07:06 PM | #131 (permalink) | |
Crazy, indeed
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Also linked here is the fact that the CIA agents in the room themselves resisted torture, and that higher ups in Langley and DC pushed for torture despite their resistance. Also linked in this thread is the fact that the military itself resisted it. Finally, it is also linked that the key issue these higher ups thousands of miles away from the torture rooms were concerned with was finding a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq. |
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04-24-2009, 07:43 PM | #132 (permalink) |
Eccentric insomniac
Location: North Carolina
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...Yet the CIA has maintained the effectiveness of the techniques.
Dude, they are not completely fricking stupid. The interrogator has enough freedom to apply strategies that are succesful. If the shit didn't work they would have moved on to things that did. That they apparently continued to use it is evidence counter to that put forward by a lone FBI guy. I mean seriously, for you to honestly believe the CIA knew the techniques did not work but kept employing them anyways indicates that the Agency: 1, just wanted to hurt people; 2, but didn't want to actually hurt them, thus not actually torturing people; 3, wanted to half-torture people more than they wanted to collect intelligence/save American lives; Nobody is that stupid, and even if you think the CIA is evil, the agents are anything but stupid.
__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence |
04-24-2009, 07:47 PM | #133 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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The people they answered to were. I don't think you understand that. If you're working for George W. Bush, you follow his lead and his orders, you're going to do stupid things. It would be helpful if you read what everyone in this thread posted. The Administration wanted a link between Iraq and al Qaeda, even though no such link existed. How do you get a detainee to illicit the confession you want, regardless of whether it's true or not? |
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04-25-2009, 05:41 AM | #134 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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you know, slims, there's the problem of torture at all. that it is used. this is a big problem, this is the central legal issue, really--but it's also a political issue, and a corrosive political issue.
then there's the problem of its frequency of use---over the past week it came out that some of the main suspects were subjected to such treatment over and over and over again. at the same time, i don't see any reason for you to assume that because torture was used that therefore only torture was used. i don't see anyone arguing in that direction, nor is there evidence that this was the case---but in certain situations, certain people, it was used and used alot. it was the official policy of the bush administration that torture be used. if you ask me personally, i'd tell you that i think there should be charges brought against entire command chains over this. if you ask me what i think will happen, i'd say that the prosecution of people for developing, implementing and carrying out this policy will be complicated procedurally and politically, and i think the administration would have preferred not to find itself under such pressure to continue pressing the matter because of that. i've already outlined why i think this poses such problems, and why i think it logical that an international war crimes tribunal do the prosecuting. another way of posing these questions: prosecution for this particular crime against humanity does not lend itself to any version of the "bad apple"theory that folk are so fond of as a way of dealing with a Situation while enabling themselves to act as though nothing structurally is wrong. this points to significant structural problems--not only at the level of to what extent was what the bush people did legitimate and to what extent was it not--in other words, how far does the power of the executive really extend---this is a problem in that a case brought for torture could easily end up in a fight over the definition of executive power, what it is, how it is defined, whether certain conceptions of executive power have to be ruled out in the american political context--or whether there might be system changes required to put a brake on executive power in other ways.....then there's the problem of what is an illegal order...then there's the problem of the extent to which there are problems with bureaucratic organization itself because it seems that such organizations are almost entirely incapable to implementing checks on policy internally--know what i mean? whatever is determined to be the rational goal of an apparatus becomes what is administered and ethical problems are either compartmentalized away or they're dealt with via requests for policy change when you get around to it thanks very much but in the meantime we'll be doing what you ask... so while i absolutely think there should be consequences for this slide into fascism lite, in the end we'll see what happens. this is only cut and dry pragmatically if you don't take anything into account. ethically, tho, this is a no-brainer in my view.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-25-2009, 06:33 AM | #135 (permalink) |
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
Super Moderator
Location: Australia/UAE
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a waterboarding video demonstration i came across today
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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy |
04-27-2009, 04:38 AM | #136 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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I see irony.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
04-27-2009, 08:10 AM | #137 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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Again, I think there is a clear difference between using enhanced questioning techniques when seeking specific information based on evidence that the target knows the information and using 'torture' either for the simple sake of harming individuals or just seeking random bits of unknown information. I agree that if a 'foot soldier' is captured "positive reinforcement" may be the best way to get any information he has. However, if a high value target is captured, I would support the use of enhance interrogation techniques until his will is broken and he has disclosed the information needed. The available time would determine how quickly we should escalate the 'questioning'.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-27-2009, 08:35 AM | #138 (permalink) | ||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Who's side do you want to be on, the chickenhawks or the experts? Let's say you work at the CIA. You're specialty is questioning prisoners and extracting information. The problem is that the current administration wants you to find a link between al Qaeda and Iraq that isn't there. You tell them clearly that you've questioned plenty of detainees about this and there's no case to be made, but they say push harder. You question more and more people, using techniques that you know, based on your decades of experience, to be effective. Still nothing. No link whatsoever. They're pressuring your boss's boss's boss to get this intel, and the pressure on you is intense to say the least. Finally, someone in that chain of command (probably at or near the top based on what we now know) orders you to torture for the information. You very strongly advise against this, because in your decades of experience not once has torture been even close to reliable, but an order is an order. You find out later that the same requests are made of the military and FBI, only to have them back out completely and refuse to torture. You do it anyway, and eventually you get intelligence about a very vague link. A lot of the confession goes against established intelligence on both Iraq and al Qeada, but your superiors decide that it's good enough. Why are we ignoring our experts? Because it's convenient. Quote:
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Iraq had nothing to do with al Qaeda before the US invaded, and torture doesn't work. Process it, deal with it, and let's move on. We've got a lot of work to do. |
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04-27-2009, 08:53 AM | #139 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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04-27-2009, 09:00 AM | #140 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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or alternatively, ace, you could at least make a pretense of having read the thread through before you started posting to it--if you had read it, you'd find that this question of precedent is addressed in it.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-27-2009, 11:27 AM | #141 (permalink) | ||
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I was not making a claim that one technique is more effective than another, I just illustrated what I would do and why.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-27-2009, 11:32 AM | #142 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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You're lucky we don't otherwise you might erroneously believe without question that "enhanced interrogation techniques" work, have worked, or might work. You may not buy my argument or the arguments of others regardless of where the experts stand on the issue, but I'm satisfied that there's some doubt in your mind.
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You're actively refusing to see the truth on this matter, and the more people out there like you go unchallenged, the greater the chances that we'll torture again. I won't allow that. You're dead wrong on the issue and you've been presented with plenty of evidence. See it. Comprehend it. |
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04-27-2009, 11:38 AM | #143 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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so ace, darling, evidence is "b.s." -----but you expect anyone to believe that yours are "fundamental questions"?
it's clear you don't want an answer--you won't accept what's offered as argument, you don't read supporting material that's posted....so why are we doing this again?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-27-2009, 01:07 PM | #144 (permalink) | |||||||||||
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FBI interrogators are generally involved with people with different cultural experiences than the CIA people would be involved with, so again we need to drill down and understand what they are actually saying. Quote:
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---------- Post added at 09:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ---------- I laid out the basis for my view. There is evidence, and if we drill down into the information and that information can not be supported can ewasily become b.s. Do you disagree? If you do agree I don't get your point. Quote:
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 04-27-2009 at 01:11 PM.. |
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04-27-2009, 01:12 PM | #145 (permalink) | ||||||||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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He's not only one of the foremost experts in the world on the subject, but he teaches people how to question. You don't get to be a world famous expert on a subject unless you know at least the first thing about that subject. To assume otherwise is to perform some incredible mental gymnastics. Yes. Please cite these circumstances. Quote:
Why Torture Doesn't Work | Rights and Liberties | AlterNet Quote:
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Edit: Maybe we should just start to list effective alternatives to torture. I just read this one today, and it was very impressive: http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089/output/print Last edited by Willravel; 04-27-2009 at 03:18 PM.. |
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04-28-2009, 07:29 AM | #146 (permalink) | |||||||
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I also find it ironic that for example we celebrate snipers killing alleged pirates in a criminal matter not a declared war without asking question but we have grave concerns about known terrorist fighting as our enemy in a declared war being questioned using enhanced techniques. I don't get how people on the left reconcile these kinds of issues. Quote:
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Is that threshold the same for every human? What is meant by terms like "extreme" or "severe"? Quote:
I am planning on doing some white water rafting this summer. I am going to rely on experts. I won't accept teaching from an expert about the best or only way to navigate conditions in a river, unless they have experienced it. The expert is an expert because they know what works from experience. Anybody can read a book and teach from the book, and I am not saying anything is wrong with that, but for me before I call one an expert they need real experience.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-28-2009, 08:06 AM | #147 (permalink) | |
Crazy, indeed
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First of all, experts are nothing more than people with a great deal of experience studying something. Yes, they do get things wrong from time to time, but I'd still rather rely on the findings of any research done by experts than this sort of ultra relativism that posits any statement of fact as inherently in doubt. I mean, it's really easy to defend this position, but it's bullshit and tells me more about you than the situation. You are basically saying that torture should be the default, and that the burden of proof is on those who say it doesn't work. Never mind the impossibilities of proving a negative, you are saying on top of that that any opinion from anyone with an in depth knowledge of the subject (i.e., the experts) is inherently false because there have been instances of experts being wrong before. I mean, how can anyone argue against such bulletproof standards? If your position is "torture until there is definite proof that it does NOT work, and such proof has to come from people who have no in depth knowledge of the subject because experts have been wrong before," nothing short of God himself coming down to earth to tell you that torture is wrong will suffice. Of course, it is ironic that the American right, long the attackers of relativism, are now reduced to the most extreme forms of relativism. Now, I would love to know which lines you don't think should be crossed. Why don't we implement torture at home? |
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04-28-2009, 08:32 AM | #148 (permalink) | |||||||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Still, the man is a general. I'd venture a guess that most generals know quite a lot of shit about war. When it's done. According to the men who have actually waterboarded people, the threshdold is between maybe 5 and 15 seconds. That's a very, very small window. I've already covered this. Maybe we should try something different for this particular question, because I agree that it's an important question. I'm sure you have your own subjective definition of torture. I'm fairly sure that things repeated beatings with fists (something we did) or ramming a detainee's head into a steel plate repeatedly until he was bleeding profusely (something we did) would probably be a lot less controversial than waterboarding. Do you consider repeated beatings with fists or ramming a detainee's head into a steel plate until he bleeds torture? What do you consider torture and why? Quote:
Please bear in mind that this man has attempted to use torture on several occasions and has found that it doesn't work on those occasions when he himself actually used torture. I don't know if I can make this any more clear. Quote:
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04-28-2009, 12:19 PM | #149 (permalink) | |
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I think it is incorrect to focus on the validity of the information obtained using torture. By that logic, any action is valid if you obtain something valuable enough. I also don't think it is correct to use our enemy's actions as a means of us doing something less extreme.
I pretty much see it as a black and white thing. We shouldn't torture. I do think that some harsh methods may be premissible but if the technique requires secret legal interpretations to justify it then we probably shouldn't be doing it. The only measuring stick I would see appropriate is to consider what we would call acceptable methods for interrogating our own soldiers. Are we comfortable with the thought of our men being waterboarded? ---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 PM ---------- Quote:
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04-29-2009, 07:59 AM | #150 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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Given, torture does not work. Given torture is illegal. If I am one of your field CIA agents and your are President, and I report that I have obtained information of an impending attack that could kill innocent people from a captured terrorist using enhanced questioning techniques that you consider torture what are you going to do? Do you have the DOJ bring charges against me? Do you act on the information? I know it is pretty easy to simply say that you won't engage in hypothetical situations, if you do or don't respond, my point is that your position lacks moral clarity. You can not be a pacifist or have those tendencies and be a defender of life and freedom. I think you have to be willing to fight, you have to be willing to do things that are unpleasant (even if it is killing alleged pirates without the benefit of a hearing or trial based on the judgment of your people in the field). I think you want it both ways, you want to pretend that you can defend life and freedom and think it can be done in a kind and gentle manner or what Obama calls our moral compass.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-29-2009, 08:21 AM | #151 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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so you're still wasting time working on variants of the utility argument to legitimate torture?
here's a word you should learn, ace: sophistry. a definition to help you out: Specious but fallacious reasoning; employment of arguments which are intentionally deceptive.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-29-2009, 08:21 AM | #152 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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These are going to have to stop being hypothetical assumptions. You're going to collapse under the weight of evidence eventually. It's not a matter of if at this point but when.
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There are quite a few variables in this situation, so while I believe you'd be under DOJ jurisdiction, I'm not 100% sure. But yes, I'd report you to the appropriate authorities immediately. I'll act on information from a reliable interrogator. Since I'm like 96% sure we're not all in an episode of 24, I won't be acting on information from a rogue agent that tortures detainees. BTW, I've come up with a possible definition for torture you keep asking for: If, at any time in the history of the US, we have charged a citizen or non-citizen for the act of torture, henceforth shall that act or those acts be considered torture. Example: we convicted several Japanese soldiers of torture for waterboarded US soldiers during WWII, therefore waterboarding is torture. This will prevent us from being massive hypocrites; it'll keep us honest. Last edited by Willravel; 04-29-2009 at 08:44 AM.. Reason: added "This will prevent us from being massive hypocrites; it'll keep us honest." |
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04-29-2009, 08:41 AM | #153 (permalink) | ||
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You still didn't answer the question of whether you would think it is acceptable for our enemies to torture our soldiers or other kidnapped civilians. Quote:
And yes it has been done without torture for decades. It was the Bush Administration that changed the rules because they weren't getting the answers they wanted. Then they were so spineless when Abu Ghraib happened they immediately threw them under the bus because they thought they could make them look like a few loose cannons. Now that their own asses are on the line their tune has changed drastically. It suddenly went from a few isolated cases to 'enhanced interrogation methods.' When nobody bought that they tried trivializing the torture methods. "Oh look at me I'm slapping myself in the face and that's torture". Obviously that hasn't worked either so now Darth Cheney is all "You can’t handle the truth." The whole situation proves once again that Bush and Cheney are miserable cowards. |
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04-29-2009, 09:59 AM | #154 (permalink) | ||||||||||
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For the record, I would take punitive action against the agent and act on the information. If the information proved credible or was correct, I would give the guy a medal for saving lives, and give him a stern talking to, or put a memo in his personnel file, for acting against policy. Or, maybe I would make him go through interrogation training with an expert. Quote:
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 04-29-2009 at 10:07 AM.. |
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04-29-2009, 10:21 AM | #155 (permalink) | ||||||
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You're a wise man.
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I'd only release a prisoner if that prisoner were captured or detained illegally. Being mistreated doesn't make one innocent, innocence does. Quote:
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04-29-2009, 11:15 AM | #156 (permalink) | |||
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Conversely, even though I oppose capital punishment, if we convict a UK citizen for a capital offense that he carried out in the US, the US has the right to execute him in accordance with our laws (capital punishment is outlawed in the UK). If you are talking specifically about Roxana Saberi, then yes, espionage is probably a bogus charge but she was originally arrested for attempting to purchase wine (illegal in Iran) and for acting as a reporter without credentials (her credentials were revoked in 2003 and then again in 2006). She continued collecting information for a book while occasionally publishing articles for NPR and the BBC. Maybe that is a stretch for "espionage" but it is easy to tell that she got herself into this mess by disobeying Iranian laws in the first place. Again, don't go to another country and expect to be given all your rights as an American. Quote:
The fact is that even if the information is suspect it is still intelligence. I'd still have it checked out. The agent that used the torture should still be prosecuted because he broke the law. |
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04-29-2009, 11:31 AM | #157 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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We need to send a clear message that torture cannot happen. But if someone does torture, you'll totally check it out thus excusing and enabling the behavior by legitimizing it.
Much like if you were to play baseball blindfolded you might hit the ball. Of course you might also hit the catcher. |
05-05-2009, 08:08 AM | #158 (permalink) | |||
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On the other hand, in your 'reality' this is what you would get (like it or not). Without clearly defined parameters and a foggy moral compass (i.e. - a bullet in the head is o.k., but waterboarding is not). You would have your people capture a high value target and tell him to talk or start walking. If he starts walking...bang. No investigation, no false outrage, no trials, you simply had an enemy get a bullet in his head. ---------- Post added at 04:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:00 PM ---------- Quote:
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I do admit that I am a bit more extreme when it comes to these issues than the normal person. In a group of people I would be the one who needs to be 'talked down', but I know that, I do listen to a credible voice of reason and I am not a total animal.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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05-05-2009, 09:18 AM | #159 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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And you lose all the valuable intel in said head. That's not a lack of restraint, it's crazy. Also, it's first degree murder. |
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05-06-2009, 06:46 AM | #160 (permalink) | |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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this is an interesting bit of information, don't you think? the bush administration in its later incarnation investigated the conduct of the 3 main authors of the torture policy and concluded that the policy was rife with technical, legal and ethical problems--enough so that the dept. could see it's way clear to charges being brought at the level of bar associations--but not enough to warrant prosecution outright. what do you make of this? and to put an end to this tiresome rearguard action from the few remaining bush supporters (of the early version of the administration no less) that waterboarding is somehow not torture: Several legal scholars have remarked that in approving waterboarding, the near-drowning method Mr. Obama and his aides have described as torture, the Justice Department lawyers did not cite cases in which the United States government previously prosecuted American law enforcement officials and Japanese World War II interrogators for using the procedure. which defies mere cynicism...
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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Tags |
attorney, charges, cia, eric, general, holder, obama, officials, torture |
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