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05-18-2009, 11:25 AM | #201 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Okay.. just call Olly Olly Oxen Free so that all those guys come out of the caves... Hide and Seek is over!
Okay, then it's not torture it's enhanced interrogation.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
05-18-2009, 11:34 AM | #202 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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We're not at war, we have an authorization to use military force, therefore, since I've established that we're not at war and thus the war context no longer applies, you're no longer fine with torture.
I'm glad we cleared that up. It only took 200 posts. |
05-18-2009, 11:35 AM | #203 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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you're right now that it's cleared up and it's not war.
I'm fine with enhanced interrogation. You will not get me to bend on my belief on this subject.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
05-18-2009, 11:48 AM | #205 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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No. You didn't. You may want to think that you did, but that's only in your head.
Ferdinand Marcos did what he did under the auspices of saving democracy. Uncles who were statesmen had their senate seats revoked. The family newspaper editor was arrested and the press shut down. It was all just Martial Law. He wasn't a dictator. He was elected. Many times, ever time. You can decide for yourself what the words may be so that it's palatable to yourself, but it's actions that determine what and who you are. We may be intending it to not be war, but it is. Call it whatever you like to call it, soldiers come home dead, traumatized, tortured, etc. And here I thought you thought for yourself, not what the government nor the media told you...
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
05-18-2009, 12:12 PM | #206 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Quote:
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We tortured to establish a lie, that Iraq was connected to 9/11. You say you're "fine" with torture in the context of war, but are you fine with torture to intentionally extract unconfirmed supposition or outright falsehood? Are you really fine with torture being used to form the basis of the great lie that leads us to war with someone that wasn't going to attack us? How far into this corner are you really willing to paint yourself? |
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05-18-2009, 12:25 PM | #207 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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nothing. again, you can parse it out as you'd like to to be.... remember it's all under the Global War on Terrorism, just like the Cold War, only shinier! Or the Vietnam War, but that wasn't a war either, but yet it's called that, same with Gulf War. Just like you said, we're not at war! Or let's not forget the Forgotten War, you know the Korean War?
I'm acting like those tortured for information were dealt with based on the assumption that 2 planes slammed into two towers not more than 1 mile from where I'm sitting now.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
05-18-2009, 12:27 PM | #208 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Would you like to respond to what I posted?
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05-18-2009, 12:28 PM | #209 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR... see the war word in there?
I already did.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
05-18-2009, 01:51 PM | #211 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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you remember your fallacies? Look up which one the poverty is.... duh.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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05-18-2009, 01:58 PM | #212 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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You were using the use of the word "war on" as evidence that it was a war. I used the same exact example with the war on poverty. You can cry about it all you want, but your point was demonstrated to be incorrect.
You said that the context of war excuses torture, but I explained that the torture started even before the AUMF on Iraq. What other points would you like me to successfully refute? |
05-18-2009, 02:01 PM | #213 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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because you won't take the idea that people with guns shooting at each other has some bearing to my opinions and belief. You'd rather it be a battle of semantics, which is absurd when people are shooting each other, trying to blow up each other, and shooting missles and bombs from planes.
all the trappings of war...but you'd like to pussyfoot around with words. I'm fine with toture. You, you're not so fine with it.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
05-18-2009, 02:08 PM | #214 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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You're changing your case. You said, very clearly, that because the term "war on" is in the label, it's a war. But fine, let's pretend that you included combat in your definition. The war on drugs includes guns and bombs and fatalities. Are we at war with drugs? No. No, we're not. The drug war cannot be used to suggest "context of war", so we can't torture drug dealers or drug users.
Would you like to change what you said again? |
05-18-2009, 02:57 PM | #215 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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No, because you're looking to parse and lawyer this into some semantic debate. I've said it time again and again and it hasn't changed.
You just want to be right, and hey, I don't care but you seem to.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
05-18-2009, 03:15 PM | #216 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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You can throw "lawyering" and "parse" around all you want, but they don't change the fact that you've had to change positions several times and you're still putting fourth a position that you are having serious trouble defending. Eventually you'll be back at "torture is a part of life" (paraphrasing), which is where you started, but even that position is weak.
You don't actually believe that torture is fine, you just were trying to make yourself feel unattached to what your and my government is doing. I can't say I blame you, it's shameful what we've done. |
05-18-2009, 04:53 PM | #217 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
go back and re-read. You keep wanting to have the last word, so go ahead, you can have it, just like you can have "being right."
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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05-18-2009, 05:08 PM | #219 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Oooh.... I get it now.
I'm lying when I say that I'm okay with torture. Oh.... thanks. I can't believe I'm lying!!!!! I must be lying because I posted that I'd give you the last word, and here I'm posting again! and like a champ... you had to take it!!!! GO WILLRAVEL! see you had to be right!
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
05-18-2009, 06:43 PM | #220 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Alright, let's do this again, then. Your main point:
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• we have less military at home to do their jobs. During Katrina there was a serious shortage of National Guard personnel. What happens if there is a natural or man-made disaster in New York? • we have a less stable source of our most important natural resource, oil • we are seeing family and friends victimized by injuries and death (perhaps you're lucky enough that no one you know has been victimized yet, but the longer this goes on the more likely you are personally to experience serious injury or death of a friend or family member) •omgyou have to put up with people like me. Don't pretend I don't irritate you. As a member of a society where self-policing is necessary for functionality, you have a very small share of a very large responsibility. If you don't buy that, you don't buy a serious part of your role as a member of our society. You are a part of the whole people that torture. You have, along with others, the collective means to correct torture. You are, indirectly, negatively effected by torture. |
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05-18-2009, 06:55 PM | #221 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
you try it again by yourself. you don't irritate me, you make me laugh.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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05-18-2009, 08:04 PM | #222 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Getting back to the subject at hand....
It seems that Earl Ofari Hutchinson came to a similar conclusion about Obama's seeming flip flop, mainly that he doesn't want to appear soft on terror. Quote:
It seems the most sensible solution to all of this is to no longer speak to the simpler people. I know it's only natural for politicians to assume that their message is too complicated so they have to dumb it down to ten word phrases, but that only reinforces that same dumb populace. It's like self-fulfilling prophecy. I've got to give Obama credit, he spoke to a higher intellect than McCain, but he still very often boiled down his thoughts and opinions to very easy to digest buzz phrases and such. And I suspect several of his positions—homosexual marriage, Afghanistan, corporate crime, and torture—had to be moderated down because in order to deliver the liberal take on those, you need to have an actual debate with many different opinions and facts. They're more complicated than "Ima gonna get them", but "Ima gonna get them" is much more simple to sell. It's fear of intellectual discourse. It's a fear that the populace wouldn't be able to follow in a serious debate about economic theory. It's a fear that the populace wouldn't be able to follow in a serious debate about the historical effectiveness of torture. It's a fear that the populace wouldn't be able to follow in a serious debate about successful methodology for extracting intelligence from captured enemies of our country. Worse still, it's a fear that the populace is so obsessed with vengeance they're unwilling to consider justice. If things are going to change, we need to ditch buzz phrases and oversimplified reality. If Obama is worried that he's going to look weak on terror, he should come out and explain his position as if he's presenting a paper in one of his Harvard law classes. Sure, some people aren't going to understand, but those of us that do can help to explain it to them. Better we're lead by honesty, ability, and intellect than half-truths, parsing of words, and the lowest common denominator. |
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06-11-2009, 02:57 PM | #223 (permalink) | |||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Well this is interesting. Maybe I was premature in thinking that it was too late to really start going after those responsible for torture. If anyone can do this, it's the ACLU. Thoughts? Last edited by Willravel; 06-11-2009 at 02:59 PM.. |
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08-25-2009, 11:17 PM | #224 (permalink) |
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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Apparently, the "not torture" that the US did actually cause the death of many subjected to it, and several more are missing:
Deaths, Missing Detainees Still Blacked Out in New CIA Report - ABC News If the policy of "no charges" continues, it will be a disgrace (but not unprecedented, as scumbag Kissinger can attest). |
08-26-2009, 06:33 AM | #227 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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This is one area where Obama can seriously eat a dick. |
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attorney, charges, cia, eric, general, holder, obama, officials, torture |
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