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Originally Posted by aceventura3
You seem to have no basis for your view other than so called and self proclaimed 'experts'. Perhaps those who can get results from enhanced interrogation techniques don't do talk shows.
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I didn't cite one person from a talk show. I've on several occasions cited reputable news sources, sources that regularly break serious stories.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
You miss the point. How does he know?
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He's not only one of the foremost experts in the world on the subject, but he teaches people how to question. You don't get to be a world famous expert on a subject unless you know at least the first thing about that subject. To assume otherwise is to perform some incredible mental gymnastics.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
Has he practiced enhanced interrogation techniques?
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Yes.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
How does he explain the circumstances when it has worked?
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Please cite these circumstances.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
If he was making a qualified statement regarding when 'it' may work and when 'it' may not work he would have credibility in my book. But you seem to quote him making an absolute statement.
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Read the article he wrote for yourself:
Why Torture Doesn't Work | Rights and Liberties | AlterNet
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
Also, there are those who 'can do' and there are those that teach.
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This is a statement that's either said in jest or by failing students. Everyone else in the world knows that you don't get to teach at such a high level without having unquestionable expertise. Regardless, General Irvine was a doer and is now a teacher, so even if your statement is true he's still a reliable source of information.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
"creates terrorists?" The people who are terrorists are already terrorists. Those on the fence, may have a number of things that make them convert. In some cases they may decide not to become a terrorist if they know they may be subject to "torture", just like some people avoid a criminal life to avoid the punitive aspects of imprisonment.
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Stop ignoring reality. We can't prosecute most of the people we've detained because there's not enough evidence, and many have been released because it was demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that they were 100% innocent. What happens when you torture an innocent person? You create hatred in them, you give them a reason to hate "us". This isn't rocket science.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
FBI interrogators are generally involved with people with different cultural experiences than the CIA people would be involved with, so again we need to drill down and understand what they are actually saying.
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Sounds like a claim that requires a citation.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
We first need to make sure that everyone is working off of the same definition of "torture". That is one reason why I spent time trying to get you to clearly define it. My definition is different than yours and I believe your definition is vague.
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It's not in the least, but you're arguing for "enhanced interrogation" which is torture. There's no gray area in that term, regardless of the intent of the language. Enhanced interrogation is torture. If it weren't, it'd be called "interrogation".
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
John MccCain did not have any strategic information to offer, he is what I would consider a 'foot soldier'. McCain was tortured and he eventually denounced his country, which is what the enemy wanted. They accomplished their goal and used him for propaganda.
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He said something he knew was not true to stop the torture, which demonstrates the failing of torture for intelligence. He proves my point.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
...by asking questions, I am actively refusing the truth? I ask you - why do you fear questions? Why do you fear having your views challenged?
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You're asking questions that have been answered. Again and again. Cited, supported, and repeated. You're intentionally ignoring things. Why are you afraid of seeing the truth?
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
I told you what I was willing to do and what I would support being done. You would consider torture things that I do not consider torture so the risk exists and will not go away. But, at least I am willing to engage in an open manner and seek clarity.
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Stop pretending like I'm not answering your questions. This thread is bursting at the seams with my honest and complete answers. Stop ignoring them.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
I may be wrong, but that is one issue. The real issue is an honest and direct response to questions. We are still at - 'the experts said so, so it must be true'...that is not good enough for me. If it is good enough for you that fine, just recognize honest differences.
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Why are you pretending that the most qualified people to answer these questions aren't qualified? Why would you ignore the opinion of someone that's actually repeatedly tortured many individuals for intelligence? Why would you ignore someone that's been in the community and that's demonstrated a knowledge so substantial that he is teaching the next generation of world-class interrogators? Why do you think you know better than these people?
Edit: Maybe we should just start to list effective alternatives to torture.
I just read this one today, and it was very impressive:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089/output/print