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Originally Posted by roachboy
so you're still wasting time working on variants of the utility argument to legitimate torture?
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I don't waste time.
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here's a word you should learn, ace: sophistry.
a definition to help you out:
Specious but fallacious reasoning; employment of arguments which are intentionally deceptive.
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Thanks.
---------- Post added at 05:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------
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Originally Posted by Willravel
These are going to have to stop being hypothetical assumptions. You're going to collapse under the weight of evidence eventually. It's not a matter of if at this point but when.
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I accept that you are mostly correct. However the position you take is one that allows for no exception. I find it interesting how you avoid realizing you have 'painted yourself into a corner'. It is challenging my ability to illustrate this, it is much more fun than those SODUKO puzzles, my wife really likes those but I get bored with them.
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Considering that I've gotten reliable and consistent answers to the torture question from the foremost experienced experts in the world, I report you immediately. I can't have a rogue field agent using techniques that are demonstrably illegal and worse still useless. It doesn't even matter what I consider torture, that will be up to the appropriate tribunal, judge, or jury.
There are quite a few variables in this situation, so while I believe you'd be under DOJ jurisdiction, I'm not 100% sure. But yes, I'd report you to the appropriate authorities immediately.
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A fair answer. If I were your agent I would accept that and I would want to be tried by a jury. Do you think you would end up with a morale problem in the agency?
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I'll act on information from a reliable interrogator. Since I'm like 96% sure we're not all in an episode of 24, I won't be acting on information from a rogue agent that tortures detainees.
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Would you try to get a secondary source? Would you have someone else speak to the prisoner captured? Would you release that prisoner? Would you allow him the right to file civil charges against me and the government?
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BTW, I've come up with a possible definition for torture you keep asking for:
If, at any time in the history of the US, we have charged a citizen or non-citizen for the act of torture, henceforth shall that act or those acts be considered torture. Example: we convicted several Japanese soldiers of torture for waterboarded US soldiers during WWII, therefore waterboarding is torture. This will prevent us from being massive hypocrites; it'll keep us honest.
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That is fair, I think having a list of what is and what is not acceptable is a step in the right direction. I think when most of the waterboarding was being done it was not explicitly illegal. If as a nation we move forward with clarity, I think we avoid these debates in the future. So, I am in favor of what Obama's original position was, of focusing on the future.
---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 PM ----------
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Originally Posted by kutulu
Yes on both. I'm not going to ignore information obtained but at the same time you have to send a message that that sort of behavior will not be tolerated. The acceptance of torture assumes that information cannot be obtained by any other means. I've never said that torture cannot extract useful information, it is just a line in the sand I don't think we should cross. There are other methods that have proven to be more useful for obtaining information.
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Hey, Will are you reading this?
For the record, I would take punitive action against the agent and act on the information. If the information proved credible or was correct, I would give the guy a medal for saving lives, and give him a stern talking to, or put a memo in his personnel file, for acting against policy. Or, maybe I would make him go through interrogation training with an expert.
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You still didn't answer the question of whether you would think it is acceptable for our enemies to torture our soldiers or other kidnapped civilians.
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What makes it unacceptable to me is that I would respond with greater force. In my view of the world you impose consequences and that determines the degree upon which something is acceptable. For example if we leave a US citizen in a Iranian prison accused of spying, we consider that acceptable. When we force her release one way or the other, then we have considered it unacceptable.
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Ignoring the wharrgarbl in your post I still think you are being intentionally obtuse regarding the pirate situation. It was an active hostage situation.
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Says who? The dead men will never tell their story. What if they were hostages as well? What if they were told to go up on deck with guns or be killed? Why is it o.k. for people to use judgment to kill but can not use judgment to use enhanced questioning techniques? I know it is off topic, but I have no clue as to how you reconcile things like this, with our "moral compass".
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The whole situation proves once again that Bush and Cheney are miserable cowards.
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What about Pelosi and other members of congress informed on what was going on?