01-09-2008, 11:14 AM | #41 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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01-09-2008, 12:03 PM | #42 (permalink) | ||||
Banned
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.....and you would support Lieberman, why?: You certainly can't be supportive of Lieberman's liberal voting record on social issues: http://www.issues2000.org/Joseph_Lieberman.htm So your support for him must be influenced by his unwavering support for "staying the course" in Iraq, right? "I support Joe Lieberman, because he has consistantly been, "stay the course".: Quote:
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01-09-2008, 03:06 PM | #43 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: NYC
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Actually, I kinda know where Ustwo is coming from on this. Part of it has to do with setting priorities: which aspects of the person who is running are most important? So I was running hypothetical matchups in my head: I'd vote for Hillary over Giuliani, Obama over Huckabee, McCain over Hillary, etc etc etc.....
I suspect from his post that Ustwo's priority is national security ahead of social issues, so he would vote for Lieberman despite disagreements on certain issues. So would I. See, Lieberman has no discernible authoritarian tendencies, so far as I can tell, whereas Hillary and Giuliani both do. So if you like national security and you want it without sacrificing your liberty, Lieberman is a good choice and so is McCain. If you want national security and dont' care about civil liberties so long as you're safe, choose Giuliani or Romney. If you don't think national security is all that big a deal, but you like redistribution, you have plenty of choices. No candidate is perfect. We're stuck with what we have. |
01-09-2008, 03:40 PM | #44 (permalink) |
Knight of the Old Republic
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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Apparently there's a huge rumor going around the Internet about the diebold machines borking the results and Obama really had 38% with Clinton at 34%. Has anyone else read this? The hand-counted votes are supposedly the aforementioned with the diebold machines putting Clinton winning. The page that had this information is currently DOSed. Can anyone else find anything, or is this just Internet rumors circulating with no basis as usual?
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01-09-2008, 03:42 PM | #45 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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01-09-2008, 04:15 PM | #46 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Hillary voted against provisions in the Patriot Act to extend the power of FBI to use "national security letters" to monitor citizens.....Lieberman supported the provision. Hillary supported bills that require the US treatment of prisoners to abide by Geneva Conventions....Lieberman did not. Who is more authoritarian?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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01-09-2008, 04:19 PM | #47 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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Plus on the otherside Romney magically gets 7% better on machines. http://ronrox.com/paulstats.php?party=DEMOCRATS
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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01-09-2008, 04:26 PM | #48 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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IMO, the most plausible reason for the disconnect with the polls is the fact that an extraordinary number of voters (15-20% according to exit polls - normally its more in the range of 5-10%) made up their mind within the last 24 hours before the election.
But its more fun to talk conspiracy theory.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
01-09-2008, 04:45 PM | #49 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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I think too much weight was given to polls that had a smallish sample group and had, from one report I read, an 8 point margin of error.
Add to this, journalists smelling a big story in Obama's Iowa win combined with the poll results. Besides, we all know that it's the republican machine that controls the Diebold machines...
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
01-09-2008, 04:55 PM | #50 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Republicans are still better at voter suppression in NH, like they did in the 2002 senate election.
How to rig an election Quote:
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-09-2008 at 04:58 PM.. |
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01-09-2008, 05:10 PM | #51 (permalink) | ||||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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http://www.politicalgateway.com/main...d.html?col=434 Quote:
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 01-09-2008 at 05:20 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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01-09-2008, 05:53 PM | #52 (permalink) | |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Columbia Journalism Review had an interview today with the director of ABC's polling unit:
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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01-09-2008, 06:10 PM | #54 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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01-09-2008, 06:23 PM | #55 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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- 6,000,000 voters abroad didn't receive ballots or received them far too late to vote after the Pentagon inexplicably shut down their website meant to manage overseas ballots - Sproul & Associates shredded Democratic registrations - 'malfunctioning' voting machines in New Mexico failed to register votes on over 20,000 ballots - as many as 1,000,000 ballots were spoiled by faulty voting equipment (that's about 1 out of ever 100 ballots) In Ohio: - Republican counties like Miami County recorded turnouts as high as 98% (literally impossible) and Democratic areas like inner city Cleveland had only 7% (despite people waiting in 2 hour lines all day in those locations) - In Warren county, Republican election officials manufactured a terrorist threat to stop the media from monitoring the official vote count - Over 357,00 voters, overwhelmingly Dems, were prevented from casting ballots and didn't have their vote counted. BTW, that shift was more than double the margin that Bush won by. - 1/4 of all registered Ohio voters were not listed on the rolls - upwards of 80,000 votes for Kerry were counted instead for Bush All this required was you pay attention when there's an election. Each of these facts is verifiable. |
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01-09-2008, 06:57 PM | #56 (permalink) | ||
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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01-09-2008, 06:59 PM | #57 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: NYC
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Willravel, did you research both sides? Because there are plenty of shenanigans everywhere, depending on which party happens to be in charge in a particular location. It's not like either party is a babe in the woods or any kind of innocent who doesn't know how to fight dirty when they think they can get away with it.
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01-09-2008, 07:00 PM | #59 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-09-2008 at 07:02 PM.. |
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01-09-2008, 07:01 PM | #60 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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01-09-2008, 08:27 PM | #62 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Recon, he was running against Nixon. You know, the guy who quit in disgrace because he was going to be impeached.
The greatest fraud was denying people the opportunity to vote for RFK. I suspect he would have been among our greatest presidents. |
01-09-2008, 08:30 PM | #63 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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So are you saying that tire slashing didn't happen? Quote:
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 01-09-2008 at 08:31 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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01-09-2008, 08:35 PM | #64 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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01-09-2008, 09:10 PM | #65 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-09-2008 at 09:48 PM.. Reason: added article |
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01-09-2008, 09:48 PM | #66 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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So in your world if a bunch of republicans on the republican payroll planned attacks on democrat assets such as the tire slashing then it would just be some guys doing it?
Homey doesn't think you would present it that way......
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
01-09-2008, 09:51 PM | #67 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Its not how I present it...it is the evidence and testimony presented in the two courts of law.
In the one case, there is testimony pointing to Republican party complicity (including plea bargains by high level Republican party officials) and in the other case, there is nothing to indicate the Democratic party's involvement. Quote:
Dont you think that McGee, Raymond and Tobin, all with direct ties to the RNC, are a bit higher political operatives than the low level "bunch of guys" who slashed the tires?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-09-2008 at 11:02 PM.. Reason: added link to Tobin |
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01-19-2008, 03:13 PM | #70 (permalink) |
Psycho
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Yet another state for Hillary. At this point does Obama need to win South Carolina to stay viable or can he hold out for Super Tuesday?
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"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751 |
01-19-2008, 08:40 PM | #71 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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01-20-2008, 07:09 AM | #72 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: a little to the right
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If Obama wins SC, the race tightens up so much that we probably won't have a nominee until late March. If he loses SC, it will take a epic event to derail Clinton and her marching band of DLC hacks.
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In heaven all the interesting people are missing. Friedrich Nietzsche |
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01-20-2008, 01:35 PM | #73 (permalink) | |
Psycho
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On a general note, I have to say that caucuses are screwed up! This isn't just because I'm a Hillary supporter and don't think its right for someone who wins by 6% of the vote in a statewide primary to get less delegates. The same thing happened to Obama in Iowa where he beat Hillary by 9% and only got one more committed delegate than her. Caucuses just don't adequately represent the voters of their respective states nor do they serve as effective indicators for the national election. Probably worst of all is that they are rife with potential corruption and usually just gloss over the smoky back room politics going on that state to boot.
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"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751 Last edited by MuadDib; 01-20-2008 at 09:07 PM.. |
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01-20-2008, 02:26 PM | #74 (permalink) |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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It's true, there are lots of issues with caucuses, but there are also benefits to them. The fact that voters have the opportunity to support a second choice is a huge deal, and something that is sorely missing in American elections. There are certainly better ways to accomplish it, but at this very moment I'm just thankful that sometimes, somewhere, voters have the opportunity.
It's true that SC is a must-win for Obama, but I don't think he needs to worry about that too much. What puts him in much greater jeopardy are the major Feb 5 states like California, where he trails by a sizable margin (the RealClearPolitics average puts Clinton ahead by 12 points). At least one good thing came out of Nevada though: I wasn't sure who I was going to vote for on Feb 5, but now I know.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
01-20-2008, 09:12 PM | #75 (permalink) | |
Psycho
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"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751 |
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01-20-2008, 09:21 PM | #76 (permalink) |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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There's no reason the candidate needs to be selected in the same way as the president is. For one thing, allowing voters to express their second choices makes the outcome more likely to be one that more people are willing to accept. Regardless of whether or not the president is elected that way, if the nominee is selected that way (or, at least, partially that way), that makes it more likely that a larger portion of the base will be enthusiastic about supporting that nominee come the general election.
Of course, even that point is irrelevent since only a few states caucus. Really, IMO, there's not much reason to care one way or the other since the number of caucuses are so few.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
01-20-2008, 10:07 PM | #77 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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01-20-2008, 10:42 PM | #78 (permalink) |
Psycho
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Yeah it does include superdelegates, but they do make up a little more than 1/5 of the total delegates in this race. Moreover, Hillary's margin in superdelegates has increased as time has passed, not decreased. While I can't speak to individual delegates changing their position, the difference between Clinton and Obama has widened as more superdelegates have pledged to her. The point is that Hillary is a lock for the great majority of superdelegates and its just a political reality. For Obama to win he has to overcome that difference in the primaries which he is not doing as of yet. If the Obama camp can't admit that political truth and work to deal around it then they are in worse trouble than the recent state losses alone would indicate.
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"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751 |
01-21-2008, 12:55 AM | #79 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: a little to the right
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There have been 3 contests in small states, absolutely nothing's a lock yet. Clinton's been basically static in her superdelegate count since November and Obama's made slight gains.
Here's the current count. The political reality is a freshman Senator has closed enormous deficits nationally against the most powerful and ruthless faction in the DNC lead by the most popular and famous Democrat alive, Bill Clinton. Poll numbers over time in Nevada: http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image2mb0.png He's done so without going negative, without responding in kind to distortions and smears, while inspiring a generation alienated by the partisan hackery the Clintons and the DLC employ and embody. This primary's got a long way to go, and Obama's got an uphill battle, but anyone who's thought differently was fooling themselves. It's far from done.
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In heaven all the interesting people are missing. Friedrich Nietzsche Last edited by pr0f3n; 01-21-2008 at 01:32 AM.. |
01-21-2008, 01:28 AM | #80 (permalink) | |
Psycho
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Now, you are 100% right that there is a lot of primary to go, but keep in mind the crucial importance of momentum, perception, and wins (pyrrhic or otherwise). The build up to Super Tuesday is extremely important in the process; it always has been and that's not changing at this point. Certainly Obama is not out of this race, but you have to admit he hasn't been able to monopolize off of his early win in Iowa like he was expected to. Hillary has been winning in races that were supposed to be much tighter (if not losses). If this doesn't mean something and have implications for the future of Obama's campaign you're going to have to tell me why, more than there simply being a lot of race left. I would contend he's doing something wrong and needs to change it fast. I don't think anyone seriously believes things can keep going as they are and have an Obama victory. What do you think he is going to need to do to turn things around? If you do think nothing, then why should the trend of events since Iowa be discounted as meaningless?
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"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751 Last edited by MuadDib; 01-21-2008 at 01:36 AM.. |
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clintons, comeback |
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