12-27-2007, 07:03 PM | #1 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Police - An evening in America
I pre-apologize. This will be long.
Today two deputy sheriffs came to my door. My sis lives with me in the basement. She pays half the rent. My wife and I pay the other half and the utilities. About eight months ago, she was stopped and found to possess a narcotic. Now this narcotic was prescribed to the dead mother of her landlord at the duplex she resided in prior to moving in with me. The were in the cabinet there. I believe it was morphine, or something that breaks down into morphine. Anyway, as part of the moving process she decided to take this bottle to her coworker which doubled as her landlord. (I know this might sound like bullshit, but that is neither here nor there. For the sake of argument, lets assume she did genuinely have some non-prescribed morphine for recreation.) So, she got arrested. We bailed her out. She was informed that within six months they'd decide whether or not to charge her with a felony drug possession.(I guess they had to think about it) After talking to some lawyers about it, she concluded that they were just being assholes and that six months would probable come and go. Well, six months came and went. Two months after six months came and went, earlier tonight, two deputies showed up at my door. My sister was still at work. They asked for her. I told them she was not here. They asked to come in. I told them no. They asked if I was harboring a fugitive, and I replied no. He asked me where my sister was. I told him I did not know, and that we don't keep tabs on one another, because we don't. She could be out on a date for all I know. They told me they'd like to check the house for her. Again, I said no thanks. They asked for her cell phone number. I told them that I meant no disrespect, but I don't give out other people's phone numbers. Then he asked for my ID. I asked him why. He said, so that he could see that I was who I said I was. This was a totally acceptable reason. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to be a dick, I just needed a good reason. So, I pulled out my DD Form 2, which I have only because I remain on inactive ready reserve. He said, "So you mean to tell me that you are in the service, and you are still going to harbor a fugitive?" I said, "No, I'm not in the military. I was in the military, yes. However, I'm harboring no fugitive." Sidebar - This part pissed me off the most. I didn't join the military for free college. I didn't sign up to wield a weapon, work on nukes, or travel the world. I signed up because, in spite of hating mostly everything about the military, I wanted to protect my children's freedom as my elders had done for me. That is the only reason, I put myself through that bureaucratic, corporate bullshit for six years. Anyway, the bitch next to Barney Fife decide to jump in. She said something to the effect of I needed to start disclosing information or else. I said, "Ma'am, I mean no respect to either of you, but I'm quite certain I've broken no laws. If I have, please let me know. I'm just trying to protect my sister as much as possible, without breaking the law, until I know what is going on." She replied, "Well what's going on is your sister has a dangerous felony warrant out for her arrest." "For what?" "I can't tell you that sir." "Ok." Then she said, "You know what is going to happen when we see a black Monte Carlo in this culdesac tonight?" ... "We're going to get a search warrant, bust down your door, children will be scared, put you all on the floor at gun point, search your property, then take all of you to jail, and your child(a princess, she's 6) to DFS." Ending the story. I asked for his phone number and told him I'd call immediately upon seeing her, and wanted to cooperate as much as reasonable. Finally they left. I'm so sick of people being ok with this. What the hell is going on? I'm just a guy standing in dress pants and a wife beater A-line, having just taken off my shirt and tie from work and saying hello to my daughter, I have no idea what the hell is going on eight months later, and this bitch is telling me she is going to put my wife and I at gun point and take my little princess to DFS. First of all, USE OF FORCE model. I'd assume she'd have heard of it being a cop and all. Secondly, why does everybody seem to think of the government as paternal, like we're supposed to do what the government says just because. NO NO NO! They are in place to do what we say is the best for all of us. You and I pay their paychecks, and last I checked we are not criminals until be convicted as such. Up until then we are just an equal American with the right to all the same respects as a police officer. I cannot divulge any more of my meme here because it is already too lengthy, but feel free to chatter about it. I have a lot more to say on the matter. Thanks for letting me rant to you TFP. I feel much better now. BTW - I called my sister immediately following them leaving. I told her that I didn't want to give her any information other than what they gave me, but I told her what had happened and gave her the telephone number to the Deputy. She drove in anxious tears to our mom's place not knowing what the hell she was about to get arrested for, and upon arriving set up a meeting with a bail bondsman and turned herself in without delay. She is in jail currently but will be bailed out soon. Of course, who knows what will happen in court. I know that I'm not very pleased to see my tax dollars paying to fuck with people who are obviously no threat to nobody and ultimately paying to cloth, house, feed, and buff up all these people that could be out living there life. We're all just trying to get from one end of life to the other as happily as possible, but it would appear that the only way for some to accomplish this is to take that right away from another, deserving or not.
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-Blind faith runs into things!- Last edited by Herk; 12-27-2007 at 07:14 PM.. |
12-27-2007, 07:24 PM | #2 (permalink) |
Baltimoron
Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD
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The ONLY thing I will say in their defense is that we need to remember how many people truly do act like complete pricks to the police, either by actually committing crimes like harboring, or just obstructing for the hell of it.
One of the kids in the family who used to own the house I live in was always in trouble, and one day I walked out the front door as two sheriff's deputies walked up. They started asking me about this guy (who hasn't lived in the house for at least five years, if not longer), and seemed very hesitant to accept my insistence that he no longer lived here. But that is really no excuse at the end of the day.
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"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun |
12-27-2007, 07:44 PM | #3 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Doesn't matter in my opinion, but just so you know I was incredibly polite to them. I pride myself on manners and respect, and it takes a lot to make me break that mold. I was overly respectful in this case, I fear.
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-Blind faith runs into things!- |
12-27-2007, 07:46 PM | #4 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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Yep. There are plenty of cops who suck as people and as cops. We put up with it because they have guns, the backing of often amoral unions, many are complete cowards when it comes to actually following the law themselves, and they have the full weight of the legal system behind them, even when they do shit that would put the average person behind bars for a long time.
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12-27-2007, 07:51 PM | #5 (permalink) | |||||
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Did you follow the outing of Valerie Plame and the subsequent Scooter Libby trial , followed by the suspension of his prison sentence, by the president of the United States who said that, in his opinion, the sentence was too harsh. I personally knew one of the investigators "on the inside" in these 1992 corruption arrests. Power corrupt,s absolute power corrupts absolutely. I walked out of the screening of "American Gangster", two months ago, considering whether police do more harm than good, and whether society would be better off without them, at least as presently constituted: Quote:
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12-27-2007, 07:58 PM | #6 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Kansas City, MO
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I'm not totally anticop. I'm pretty cooperative and very appreciative. They perform a good service, and some of them are good. You are absolutely correct, though. What you say is exactly how it seems to be implemented. So unfortunate. I wish people would vote for people that really cared about freedom more than anything else.
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-Blind faith runs into things!- Last edited by Herk; 12-27-2007 at 07:59 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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12-27-2007, 08:13 PM | #7 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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You behaved correctly. It's impressive to know that there are still people who are up on civics and rights. They were trying old tactics to scare you, and you didn't budge. They can't do shit.
Look at it this way: they were using dishonest tactics to try and get your sister, and you stopped them in their tracks. Be proud of yourself, and email your local news paper with the story. Call the email: "Local police threaten to invade home of innocent people and take their 6 year old daughter." That'd be if you want to fight fire with fire. |
12-27-2007, 08:18 PM | #9 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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12-27-2007, 08:18 PM | #10 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: In transit
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Good for you for standing up for yourself. Good luck to your sister.
Not a fan of the war on drugs myself, so regardless of your sisters motives for having the morphine, its ridiculous that the government has to get involved at all. Generally the police try to be antagonistic on purpose, to throw you off guard, make you admit something, or just to piss you off so they have probable cause to arrest you and search your place. Its all mind games, really.
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Remember, wherever you go... there you are. |
12-27-2007, 08:21 PM | #11 (permalink) | |||
Insane
Location: Kansas City, MO
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As far as fighting back. No way. They didn't cause me any harm, so I wouldn't to them, and I've already had enough trouble with my local school district. I've got no fight left for a minute. Quote:
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-Blind faith runs into things!- Last edited by Herk; 12-27-2007 at 08:22 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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12-27-2007, 08:28 PM | #12 (permalink) | |
I Confess a Shiver
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Whether they'll end up doing it or not... what's the point of saying it? |
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12-27-2007, 08:56 PM | #13 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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12-27-2007, 09:21 PM | #14 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Lets play devils advocate here, and who better than the right wing robot devil.
The police go to serve a warrant. Brother says shes not there, and won't give they a way to get in touch with her even though thats her known address. He is in fact protecting a fugitive. Its in his rights not to give out her phone number, but that doesn't change it. Brother is annoyed cop would say that he is harboring a fugitive, but its true. Police tell the truth on what happens if they get a search warrant and shes there as the brother would be arrested. I'm not sure what a "dangerous felony warrant" is exactly, but my guess is that when 'dangerous' is in the title it will be at gunpoint when they make the arrest. This is done for the polices protection as well as those being arrested so no one does something stupid. The cops then leave, not entering the premises and the sister is called by the brother and turns herself in. Funny how often I've seen this sort of thing on COPS and its always so different from the officers side. No one likes being bullied, and the cops tried to scare you, but no rights were violated and your sister turned herself in without incident. Sounds like the best possible outcome to me.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
12-27-2007, 09:21 PM | #15 (permalink) |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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A couple things...... not taking the cops side but a couple things stick out at me.
1) how much Morphine did she have when she was busted? If it was felony possession in most states that means enough to distribute (i.e. sell), but if they can't prove she was going to sell it'd just be possession. What degree felony? 2) After 6 months you and your sister didn't hear anything from the courts? What about the bail money, surely you would have cared about that and followed up as to where it was. 3) Your sister could very feasibly been lying to you about a lot of things, especially if "you don't keep track of her." If I paid someone's bail you better be damned sure I'm keeping tabs on their every movement and keeping track of what is going on with the courts. 4) After talking to lawyers, your sister concluded the police were being assholes, what did the lawyers say. Felony drug possession doesn't just go away and those charges aren't pressed just because the cops were "assholes". It sounds to me like your sister missed court, became a "fugitive" and the police were trying to locate her. I have a feeling given the questions I posed above, there is far more to this story from your sister and you probably need to get it from her. It also sounds like the cops were trying to scare tactic you more than anything. Scare you into telling everything and at the very least calling her. Not saying it's right, but from what you gave, it sounds like she jumped bail (hence telling you, you were helping a fugitive), if it was felony drugs and she had had close to the limit to distribute but not quite, they may wonder what goes on in your house. You may want to talk to a lawyer and see what course of action you can take against the police, they did go to far, even if it was only a scare tactic. You best get your sister to be honest with you, because it sounds like she hasn't been.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
12-27-2007, 09:23 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
I Confess a Shiver
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If they can convince a judge that a search warrant is needed... go for it. Powertripping bitter cops take things just as personally as dirtbag civilians. There shouldn't be this much feeling involved in the law. It's pretty cut 'n dry in cases like this: Get a mofo'n warrant if you have enough evidence. |
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12-27-2007, 09:27 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Scaring some guy a little so he gets his sister to turn herself in, or pretending everything is cool, leaving, getting the warrant and while I don't know the procedure for a 'dangerous felony warrant' my guess is that it could very well be EXACTLY as the cops described. They were being assholes and scary and doing him a favor at the same time. I also think pan is correct in his possibilities. I think there is more to this then a 'we will call you if we decide to press charges' going on with the sister.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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12-27-2007, 09:39 PM | #18 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Anyone with the common sense and knowledge to respond the way Herk did, obviously knowing his rights, would probably also know the consequences for breaking the law. The scare tactics were intended to scare them into giving up their rights. That's a bad thing. Rights are there for a reason: to maintain balance. Just as they had a right to say, "No you can't come in and we don't know where she is.", the cops had a right to go get a warrant. No warrant? That's because there's not enough evidence for one. Bam. Justice.
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12-27-2007, 09:54 PM | #19 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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We can only go by what he said, and again, felony drug charges DO NOT JUST DISAPPEAR and are not even threatened unless there is something there, cops don't file drug charges just because they are assholes. In the end the cops got his sister. They may have wanted to save Herk the embarrassment of having doors kicked in, the family charged with harboring and DFS getting involved. Still talk to a lawyer first thing tomorrow and see what he/she says. I still say based on what Herk has given there is far more to the story, Herk may have given us all he knows but his sister definately has more to her story. The big thing for me is 8 months pass by and no one is looking at what happened to the bail money? Sounds to me like sis skipped court, jumped bail, she could have intercepted mail regarding the court date and her jumping bail, etc. The key is to see what kind of bail she gets now, if she jumped she will go to arraignment straight away and be held without bond until her court date. Interesting story but needs more for any of us to achieve a true understanding, including maybe even Herk.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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12-27-2007, 10:00 PM | #20 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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I had a warrant once because I was stupid and forgot to pay a speeding ticket when I was 17. A year later, I ended up having to pay like $900. Ouch. I didn't find out about it until I received a second notice that there was a warrant out (the first one? No idea, never got it). |
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12-27-2007, 10:07 PM | #21 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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I deal with PO's, drug dealers, addicts and cops every day. There is more to this story and if Herk is being honest with us (and we have no reason to doubt him) then there is more to this story on his sister's part and the law's. There are too many holes and questions in the story. The biggest being what about the bail. Trust me after that 6 month period I'd be wanting my bail money refunded or finding out why it wasn't. How did the cops know she lived there? There is a huge difference between not paying a speeding ticket and felony drug charges. To even compare the 2 is laughable.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 12-27-2007 at 10:11 PM.. |
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12-27-2007, 10:12 PM | #22 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Calm down there with the laughable thing. My point is simply that the PD is not always on the ball about warrants. It's a valid point.
Neeways: Herk... did you get your money back? Did it come from your sister's pocket 8 months ago or was it recently? That should answer your concerns, pan. |
12-28-2007, 03:23 AM | #23 (permalink) | |||||||||
Insane
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Secondly, that wasn't the best possible outcome. The best outcome would have been the same except that the cops would not have treated me like assholes. Quote:
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Let me just clarify here, that my only complaint was how I was handled. NOT, how the cops have handled my sister. I don't think that has anything to do with how they treated me. Even if she killed somebody. I did nothing wrong.
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-Blind faith runs into things!- Last edited by Herk; 12-28-2007 at 03:50 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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12-28-2007, 04:53 AM | #24 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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You know, I can muster up some compassion for the position these cops were in. It's a tough job, being a police officer. You're given a badge and a gun, and told to go out and stop crime based entirely on your wits and your ability to apply force--both physical and psychological. It's no surprise that they sometimes end up employing tactics like this. Doesn't make it right, but I can understand it.
You absolutely CAN be charged with harboring/aiding a fugitive without having prior knowledge of the person's fugitive status. Your ignorance may become a mitigating factor in court (or the judge might dismiss outright), but that doesn't necessarily prevent your being hauled in for it. |
12-28-2007, 05:09 AM | #25 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Kansas City, MO
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How am I ignorant? What did I ignore? How did I harbor a fugitive? I did not know her whereabouts, and did not lie to them. I immediately called my sister and reported the mans phone number to her. I'm very curious to hear anybody explain how I harbored a fugitive.
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-Blind faith runs into things!- |
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12-28-2007, 05:23 AM | #26 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=108229 Herk, it is possible that the cops who challenged you were bluffing: Quote:
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12-28-2007, 06:02 AM | #27 (permalink) | ||
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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12-28-2007, 06:06 AM | #28 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Herk, sorry that you had to go through this. Clearly it wasn't fun and you're still upset about it.
The world would be a much better place if we could wave a magic wand and make all the assholes disappear. That's not going to happen. That said, I keep coming back to the idea of "words and deeds". They may have said disrespectful things in a disrespectful tone, but there's no law against that. They didn't actually DO anything other than knock on your door. They didn't break any laws or violate your rights. Could this have been handled better? Oh god yeah. There's no question about that. Did they actually do anything WRONG, though? That, I think, is a much tougher question to answer. As for you, I think you acted completely appropriately and within your rights. For that you received some threats that proved to be empty.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
12-28-2007, 06:42 AM | #29 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Kansas City, MO
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-Blind faith runs into things!- |
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12-28-2007, 06:43 AM | #30 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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12-28-2007, 07:09 AM | #31 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Kansas City, MO
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-Blind faith runs into things!- |
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12-28-2007, 07:10 AM | #32 (permalink) | |
Banned
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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=108084 ....you demonstrated a contempt for "the process", IMO, that is clearly reversed in your posted opinions on this thread. |
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12-28-2007, 07:11 AM | #33 (permalink) | |||||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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12-28-2007, 07:12 AM | #34 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=108084 ....you demonstrated a contempt for "the process", IMO, that is clearly reversed in your posted opinions on this thread: Quote:
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12-28-2007, 07:37 AM | #35 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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I political witch hunt with wild accusations and the cops looking to arrest someone for narcotics possession. Yes I see your point, how could I have missed the obvious relevance.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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12-28-2007, 12:14 PM | #36 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Kansas City, MO
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There was a warrant, but it was an arrest warrant, not a search warrant. I know about the ID, but like I said before, I am cooperative. It wouldn't have helped not to show them, and I was genuinely not trying not to fuck with them. Thank you for the kudos.
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-Blind faith runs into things!- |
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12-28-2007, 01:08 PM | #37 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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12-28-2007, 02:11 PM | #38 (permalink) | |
Banned
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I'll leave it to you and others to decide if your reaction was to give authority the benefit of the doubt, right out of the gate, with so little detail actually disclosed. I don't mean to go OT here, but I cannot understand your reaction here, or in the Libby criminal case. |
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12-28-2007, 02:14 PM | #39 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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12-28-2007, 03:18 PM | #40 (permalink) | ||
Insane
Location: Kansas City, MO
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I truly appreciate your input Ustwo, though in many cases we disagree. You are obviously quite intelligent, and banter is never fun when everybody agrees.
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-Blind faith runs into things!- Last edited by Herk; 12-28-2007 at 03:24 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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america, evening, police |
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