dksuddeth

hey, at least nobody reported that your kid fell down.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59566

Nearly a dozen members of a police SWAT team in western Colorado punched a hole in the front door and invaded a family's home with guns drawn, demanding that an 11-year-old boy who had had an accidental fall accompany them to the hospital, on the order of Garfield County Magistrate Lain Leoniak.

The boy's parents and siblings were thrown to the floor at gunpoint and the parents were handcuffed in the weekend assault, and the boy's father told WND it was all because a paramedic was upset the family preferred to care for their son themselves.

Someone, apparently the unidentified paramedic, called police, the sheriff's office and social services, eventually providing Leoniak with a report that generated the magistrate's court order to the sheriff's office for the SWAT team assault on the family's home in a mobile home development outside of Glenwood Springs, the father, Tom Shiflett, told WND.

County Social Services[/url] were not returned, and Leoniak, who earlier served as a water court clerk/referee, also was not available.
Sheriff Lou Vallario, however, did call back, and told WND he ordered his officers to do exactly what the magistrate demanded.

"I was given a court order by the magistrate to seize the child, and arrange for medical evaluation, and that's what we did," he said.

According to friends of the family, Tom Shiflett, who has 10 children including six still at home, and served with paramedics in Vietnam, was monitoring his son's condition himself.

The paramedic and magistrate, however, ruled that that wasn't adequate, and dispatched the officers to take the boy, John, to a hospital, where a doctor evaluated him and released him immediately.

The accident happened during horseplay, Tom Shiflett told WND. John was grabbing the door handle of a car as his sister was starting to drive away slowly. He slipped, fell to the ground and hit his head, Shiflett said.
He immediately carried his son into their home several doors away, and John was able to recite Bible verses and correctly spell words as his father and mother, Tina, requested. There were no broken bones, no dilated eyes, or any other noticeable problems.

The family, whose members live by faith and homeschool, decided not to call an ambulance. But a neighbor did call Westcare Ambulance, and paramedics responded to the home, asking to see and evaluate the boy.

The paramedics were allowed to see the boy, and found no significant impairment, but wanted to take him to the hospital for an evaluation anyway. Fearing the hospital's bills, the family refused to allow that.

"This apparently did not go over well with one of the paramedics and they started getting aggravated at Tom for not letting them have their way," a family acquaintance told WND.

"The paramedics were not at all respectful of Tom's decision, nor did they act in a manner we would expect from professional paramedics," the acquaintance said.

So the ambulance crew, who also could not be reached by WND, called police, only to be told the decision was up to the Shiflett familiy.

The paramedics then called the sheriff's office, and officers responded to the home, and were told everyone was being cared for.

Then the next day, Friday, social services workers appeared at the door and demanded to talk with John "in private."

They were so persistent Tom ended up having to get John out of the bathtub he was just soaking in, to bring him to the front porch where the social workers could see him, the family reported.

Then, following an afternoon shopping trip to town, the family settled in for the evening, only to be shocked with the SWAT team attack.

The sheriff said the decision to use SWAT team force was justified because the father was a "self-proclaimed constitutionalist" and had made threats and "comments" over the years.

However, the sheriff declined to provide a single instance of the father's illegal behavior. "I can't tell you specifically," he said.

"He was refusing to provide medical care," the sheriff said.

However, the sheriff said if his own children were involved in an at-home accident, he would want to be the one to make decisions on their healthcare, as did Shiflett.

"I guess if that was one of my children, I would make that decision," the sheriff said.

But he said Shiflett was "rude and confrontational" when the paramedics arrived and entered his home without his permission.

The sheriff also admitted that the injury to the child had been at least 24 hours earlier, because the fall apparently happened Thursday afternoon, and the SWAT attack happened late Friday evening.

Officials with the Home School Legal Defense Association reported they were looking into the case, because of requests from family friends who are members of the organization.

"While people can debate whether or not the father should have brought his son to the ER – it seems like this was not the kind of emergency that warrants this kind of outrageous conduct by government officials," a spokesman said.

Tom Shiflett said when John was evaluated by the physician, "they didn't find anything wrong with him."
He said the paramedics never should have entered his home, but they followed his wife in the front door when she came in.

"My attention was on my son," Shiflett said.

He said the SWAT team punched a hole in his door with a ramrod, and the first officer in the home pointed a gun right in the face of Tom's 20-year-old daughter.

"I don't know where social services ever got started, or where they got their authority," he said. "But I want to know why we have something in this country that violates our rights, that takes a parental right away."

He said he saw a multitude of injuries in Vietnam, and while he recognized that his son needed to be watched, he wasn't willing to turn his child over to the paramedics.

With 10 children, most of them older than John, it's not as if he hasn't seen a bruise or two, either, he said.

"Now I'm hunting for lawyers that will take the case … I'm going to sue everybody whose name was on that page right down to the judge," he said.

Mike Donnelly, a lawyer with the HSLDA, told WND the case had a set of circumstances that could be problematic for authorities.

"In Doe V. Heck, the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals held that parents have a fundamental right to familial relations including a liberty interest in the care, custody and control of their children," he said.

He also said many social services agencies apply "a one size fits all approach" to cases, regardless of circumstances.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

host

dksuddeth, I suggest that you take down your "article", as it is not the "model" for the argument you are trying to make, at least not with that bit of news "coverage":


dksuddeth, I suggest that you take a look at your post, #21, on this thread:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...84#post2337984

It is significant, because, directly before your post #21, on that thread, in post #20, I believe I did a fair job of demonstrating that the "reporter" whose "article" is the foundation for your last post here, is a christian fundamenatalist zealot POSING AS A REPORTER. WND, "reporter" Bob Unruh's employer, is not a news "service", it is a religious propaganda distribution service, with a fanatically biased owner/ editor...please read the entire post #20, above your post #21, linked above.

Please stop publishing "articles" from Unruh and from WND, unless they are backed by other sources...

Here's one...I've excluded all comments by Mr. Shiflett, and by the man who the WND article "reported" was a "family acquaintance". The following article, clearly shows who the unidentified "acquaintance" is, and, as we can see from his other "contributions" to the Post Independent, he is hardly an unbiased, or even a reliable source. His writings indicate that he is as extreme in his religious and secular opinions, as Mr. Shiflett:

Ustwo

host nothing you posted in any way warrants the government knocking down a door and holding a family at gunpoint.

But nice try at attacking the source.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dksuddeth

host, besides the fact that you feel WND is a biased site and that the 'reporter' is an extremist secular individual, as well as you completely discounting all friend and family statements because of your bias against said sources that basis of the article says that the rights of parents to care for their kids, in regards to medical issues, is no longer viable and that overwhelming force will be used to implement state policy.

on top of that, the pathetic excuses by the sheriff for the reasons of the use of force because the father was a 'self proclaimed constitutionalist', should bode dangerous even to your mind. This is clearly an egregious attempt at intimidation for ones political beliefs.

I get that you dismiss WND and christian zealots as liars, cheats, and extremists but that doesn't mean that the story has no basis in truth.
Instead of using a couple of examples from one individual to discount every story printed by WND, why not try and dig up other sources that directly discount that very story.

I also note that you conveniently left out the fact that the boy was released without even being treated at the hospital. purposeful?

here is a non-WND source for you then, unless you'd like to attack this one as well?

http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20080108/NEWS/3674475

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

host

dksuddeth...you and Ustwo are saying that sources to support your concerns and your points are trumped by your issue. You have 3 named quoted sources..the boy's father...Bob Unruh...and Talbatt the trailer park owner to support your argument. I,ve exposed Unruh in post 20 on the other thread and the July column from Talbatt is in my last post...so where is ant unbiased credible source to refute what officials said happened...and why? ....And Ustwo...government interference is a problem in parent child relations and responsibilities...this just is not a credible example of it, with what has been posted? so far....

dksuddeth

ok, so you're saying that the boy, his father, his mother, all his siblings, and the owner of the trailer park are not credible sources compared to the officials of the government?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dc_dux

So another dksuddeth rant about alleged police misconduct....what a surprise.

I dont condone these random and isolated cases, but I recall we went through a thread that determined that these type abuses represent less than 1% of all police actions.

How about the rising number of law enforcement fatalities?

DK.....Do you value the police at all?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

dksuddeth

I value the good ones, absolutely. It's the bad ones I have a problem with, unlike others who write them off as isolated incidents.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Boy, I put on my posting gloves* as soon as I saw that dk was the last poster in a thread about police problems in the US...

DK, that's a pretty moderate post you got there. Just so you know, I don't think anyone, liberal or conservative, doesn't have a problem with corrupt police officers. If a police officer does something wrong, we all expect him or her to be punished according to the letter of the law.

*Posting Gloves

dc_dux

How are these incidents you post NOT isolated?

Must we replay your old "Zero faith in law enforcement anymore?"

Here is a snip:
dk.....I havent seen anyone here condone illegal or improper behavior by police....but you have yet to explain how your latest incident from Colorado is NOT isolated? Your own Cato "raidmap" combined with FBI stats clearly show how isolated these "botch paramilitary police raids" really are.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Plan9

And I thought your posting gloves would resemble something from The Road Warrior.

...

I totally should post the paper I wrote about this crap. Hmmm.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Lasereth

Yes the police were assholes. That sucks.

Look at what happens to them every single day: they go to find out where someone is. The person at the door lies. The cops keep asking questions and eventually find the person at fault and the "fugitive" is actually in the house. Them being assholes turned up the fugitive.

This happens all the time. Cops have to treat people like that because more often than not, the person at the door IS lying. It sucks that nice, innocent people have to get that treatment as well, but if the cops have a better chance of turning up someone by drilling you, then that's what they have to do. There's no excuse for being downright rude, but when you get 500 calls a week about bullshit like this, being aggressive from the get go gets results much faster than playing nice guy and then busting down the door a week later and scaring the shit out of everyone.

shakran

I had a similar threat from a cop several years ago. Too bad I'm a photojournalist with his own betacam at home. I picked it up, flipped on the toplight and started recording, pulling the mic off and holding it out under the guy's chin. "Care to repeat that, sir?" Surprisingly enough he stopped when he realized it was gonna be documented.

Herk

Hmm, interesting. First of all, I don't think that all the bullshit Barney Badass power-tripping cop incidents end up being reported as blotched incidents. I'd assume that very few do, as most people just get railroaded and can do nothing about it. Do you think my case went down a blotched incident? I don't.

Anyway, regardless of the big picture in which police perform a great service appreciated by most, there are still incidents where misconduct happens. Those are the one's that need to be pointed out, not where the police do the right thing. We pay for them to do that. It is expected of them, and should happen no matter our level of appreciation.

In this particular case, my personal opinion is that all the officials in the matter were grossly out of line. Law books aside, I feel that nobody should have the right to determine a child's best interest other than the parent, except where the parent can be determined to have compromised the child's rights. I guess in this case it could be argued that the father had done just that, but I don't know how. Kid falls, parent reacts appropriately. End of story. Nobody else needs to be coming in questioning that.

I'm appalled by the idea that people need to look out for other people's parenting. This is the role of the parent. For instance, tonight on the way home from my daughter's tumbling class, she, my wife, and I stopped at a Wendy's to get some grub via the drive through. My daughters apparel was: shoes no socks, flannel pajama pants, a leotard, and a coat lined with fur. Well, apparently the drive through specialist didn't think this was sufficient for the mildly cold outdoor weather. She said, "You brought her out in pajamas."

"Yes, I'm taking her home from gymnastics in a warm truck, is there a problem?"

"No, I just thought it was a bit cold."

"How about that food I ordered?"

Who the hell does she think she is? My little girl was born and raised mostly in North Dakota. Ever been there? Its fucking cold, and by fucking cold I mean take your gloves and and get frostbite in a matter of seconds cold. She can handle the thirties in pajama pants, a coat, and a warm truck. So says the dad, one of only two sources that are in a position to make that decision.

I'm surprised he didn't bust out the you can't record cops trump card, and try and arrest you.

Doing what it takes to get results in perfectly acceptable, except when civil rights are not taken into account. I'll bet we could drop the crime rate significantly if we put all the American population in jail. Well, there is one problem. Fortunately our government allows that we are all innocent right up until we been proven beyond reasonable doubt to be guilty. So, until that is done I don't feel that anybody cop or otherwise should be able to circumvent my rights, even if it does yield positive results. In most cases, I'll add, this is not the case. Generally cops being assholes is not violating our rights, so it is ok. Vexing but ok. Once they cross the line though, whether it works or not, they are wrong.

Example: Patriot Act and various other ridiculous acts of government to remove rights. It seems that many people feel like it is ok to set personal rights aside as long as the result is positive. I happen to be more interested in freedom, and feel that those people should be deported, immediately, last stop the end of a plank, attached to a ship in the middle of the ocean.

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-Blind faith runs into things!-