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Old 10-25-2007, 01:53 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Is this the face of Patriotism?

Don't start off screaming, actually read this "comic." Say what you want about the evil Religious Right, about any conservatives screaming any number of stupid things... but this is just wrong.

http://www.gocomics.com/rallcom/2007...terstitialskip

I don't even know where to start with this. I have never questioned people's patriotism, primarily because I think it's useless and inane, but how does one argue (s)he's patriotic if they have these sentiments?

How does one say he loves a country when all he does is talk about how evil it is, and openly support the people whom his country is fighting? How does he claim to love the country, then imply the world would be better without those who fight under the country's flag?
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Old 10-25-2007, 02:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I love the Constitution. I love the Bill of Rights. I love the people who helped to clean up after 9/11 or Katrina. I love the people who are fighting fires in SoCal, in fact. I love that a black and and a white woman can date in some places and no one raises an eyebrow. I love that I can be an outspoken atheist but only receive a bit of flack for it (as opposed to being put to death). I love how beautiful places like our national parks are. I love so many things about this country.

I don't love everything. I don't love giant corporations that are 100% profit driven, even at the cost of the health and safety of people. I don't like lobbyists and bribery of politicians. I don't like that we seem to enjoy war on some level. I don't like that a lot of innocent people die because of our leaders, be the deaths foreign or domestic.

I doubt anyone really thinks that the world would be better without the military, but they've already succeeded. They invaded Iraq successfully, they removed the Iraqi government, they found Saddam, and they helped the country to have relatively free elections. I congratulate our military who has not failed us (cept those few who murdered, raped, tortured, etc., but those are not an accurate representation of the whole). I say, let's bring them home and have a massive parade, welcoming them as victorious. They did their part, and I applaud them for it. But it's done. We didn't invade Iraq to mediate a civil war poorly. We didn't invade to arm one sect of Iraqis to fight other sects, neither of which are law abiding. The politicians fucked up, and I'm not willing to allow any of my friends to die because of it. Sorry. If the UN wants to step in as we're leaving, they're welcome. Here's an idea: Iraq needs to come out of it's infancy. The US military didn't make them try to kill each other. Shit, our politicians can't even really be blamed for that. It's long since been time for Iraq to take car of Iraq.
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The guys an asshole who obviously writes/draws for other assholes.

I don't question his patriotism. Some of these assholes think that being an asshole like this is somehow patriotic, that undermining the country in a time of war because you dont' agree with it is a good thing. I question his judgment.
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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I agree its over the top and in poor taste as an expression of the fucked up Bush war policy....but its hardly "supporting the people we are fighting" or "undermining the country".

Perhaps we should drop thousands of these Marvel comics over the insurgent and al Queda strongholds in Iraq to counter this one insignficant expression and really scare the enemy.



U.S. Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld (C) playfully flexes his muscles alongside Marvel comic heroes Spiderman (L) and Captain America during a promotion of a special military-themed custom marvel comic, at the Pentagon in Washington, April 28, 2005. More than one million copies of Marvel's "Salute our troops" comic books will be distributed in May to U.S. troops deployed around the world. REUTERS/Jason Reed

Even in times of war, particularly a war that many Americans believe is illegal and was unnecessary...we dont own unquestioned allegiance to a failed policy that is costing thousands of American lives.
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:33 PM   #5 (permalink)
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The cartoon was simply disrespectful and massively ignorant. In doing comedy, the sarcastic exaggeration must at least in some way be reasonable. We've lost a few thousand people. In reality it would have been better to lampoon heart disease (if he was dead set on being a prick).
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:36 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Will...I agree it was disrespectful and ignorant.... and I agree with Ustwo that the guy is an insensitive asshole.

I just dont believe it supports the enemy and undermines the country. Neither the enemy nor the country are that stupid to give it that level of attention.

Because its so blatantly ignorant, IMO, its far less damaging and will have far less of an impact than the $millions in DOD grants to private communications companies to promulgate pro-war propaganda.
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:37 PM   #7 (permalink)
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heh, i laughed.

theres a sick logic behind some of those comics.
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:54 PM   #8 (permalink)
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The military itself seems to think intelligence is desirable – its Armed Forces Qualifying Test is essentially a measure of IQ. Test takers are divided into Categories I through V, with those of above-average IQ designated I through IIIa.

Category V scorers, the lowest 10 percent, are ineligible for military service (sorry, Forrest). Category IV scorers, who fall between the 10th and 30th percentiles, must have high school diplomas and can never make up more than 4 percent of a year's recruits.

For 2005, official government statistics indicate that 67 percent of Army recruits, 71 percent of Navy newbies, 68 percent of new Marines and 80 percent of Air Force recruits scored in Categories I through IIIa. In other words, a randomly-selected member of any branch of the military is more likely to have an IQ above 100 than a randomly-selected citizen of the United States.

http://www.chron.org/tools/viewart.php?artid=1347

That seems about right. I don't have the link anymore but I recall combat soldiers having higher IQ's than the army as a whole as well.
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:58 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Ustwo....so you got sucked into proving the asshole wrong....something of which most reasonable Americans, even those on the left, would not need convincing.

But can you explain how it undermines the country?
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:07 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I look at this comic as little more than a failed satire. This means I think that most people won't get it. Although I cannot be certain of the writer's intent, I get the feeling that he did a sloppy job communicating it.

If it undermines the country, it is by suggesting that only intelligent people avoid fighting in the war, leaving such things to those who don't know better. It undermines America by suggesting that there is a class divide between those in the armed forces and those who look to be in the creative class. Because how else would you be able to cull the aimless, TV-watching, beer-drinking members from American society?
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
 
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ted ral is not exactly a new phenomenon.
he's often kind of scattershot in his approach, failing as often as not in my view.
but i look at his comics when i run across them.

in this case, you have a bit of black humor aimed at the military recruiment practices which target working-class kids. i dont think he is particularly on the mark in it.

that said, rall is self-evidently not a conservative and so linking him to collective pathologies like "patriotism" seems a bit odd. i've said this alot: nationalism is a collective mental disorder...an amazingly primitive signifiers around which to articulate the usual patterns of inclusion and exclusion that make identities of this order appear to mean something.
you see this playing out above, particularly in ustwo's snippy little posts.

beyond patterns of inclusion and exclusion--which are only important because they put this category of "nation" or "us" into motion and so give it a sense of tangibility---what it seems mostly to legitimate is tedious self-important public rituals and a requirement that kids be forced to recite stupid oaths. and wholesale breakdowns of taste in graphic design.
look at the new american twenties.

what makes the comic really funny is the frothy, salty accusations of rall as part of some phantom fifth column sucking the lifeblood of wholesome americans. that's another function of nationalism--enabling people to say really stupid things.

rall is a cartoonist who likes provocation.
i find his work much funnier now than i did before i read through much of this thread.
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:44 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Ustwo....so you got sucked into proving the asshole wrong....something of which most reasonable Americans, even those on the left, would not need convincing.

But can you explain how it undermines the country?
That was for Shauk.

It undermines the country in that the implication is if you enlist you are obviously stupid and should die. We need people to enlist. Do I think its a major issue? No I doubt anyone who thinks its funny would have the type of character to enlist anyways. I do think the 9/11 conspiracy nutjobs have in fact hurt the country by convincing a large number of undereducated and naive people that the risk of terror is a lie.
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:57 PM   #13 (permalink)
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We need people to enlist... sounds like a good argument for withdrawal.

BTW, the 'risk' of terror basically is a lie. Even accepting 9/11, statistically speaking it's simply not reasonable to expect to be in any danger from a terrorist attack. We spend billions on a 'war on terror'. No... wait... trillions now. So how much are we spending on things that are actually a threat to us? We could have funneled billions into heart disease, cancer research, stroke research, respiratory, diabetes, and Alzheimer's research, saving millions of lives. Shit no. We lost 3,000 people in an easily preventable attack (from your perspective, which I'll accept for the sake of this argument), and have now lost over twice that amount total adding the 3,837 US coalition forces to die in Iraq to those who died on 9/11.

9/11 = 2,976 deaths
Iraq = 3,837 deaths

Over 650,000 people died because of heart disease last year. Over 550,000 died because of cancer last year.
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Old 10-25-2007, 05:18 PM   #14 (permalink)
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because IQ = common sense......


right.
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Old 10-25-2007, 07:01 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
It undermines the country in that the implication is if you enlist you are obviously stupid and should die. We need people to enlist. Do I think its a major issue? No I doubt anyone who thinks its funny would have the type of character to enlist anyways.
Is there such a thing as "attempted undermining"?

I don't hold at all with this "support the troops and kiss the president's ass or you're undermining the country and giving aid and comfort to the terrists" nonsense. Our country is founded on dissent and the freedom to express an opinion--however tasteless this case may be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
I do think the 9/11 conspiracy nutjobs have in fact hurt the country by convincing a large number of undereducated and naive people that the risk of terror is a lie.
I don't agree with the conspiracy theorists (although Building 7's failure is inexplicably anomalous). I don't see how people having a real view of the risk of terror could possibly harm anyone but certain republican administration members. There were 14 times more car accident deaths in 2005 alone than deaths caused by terrorism inside the US in the last decade. In terms of attention, budget, and expenditure of life, the so called risk of terror is VASTLY over-sold, and entirely for political purposes.

Am I helping the enemy now?
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Old 10-26-2007, 05:54 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid

I don't agree with the conspiracy theorists (although Building 7's failure is inexplicably anomalous). I don't see how people having a real view of the risk of terror could possibly harm anyone but certain republican administration members. There were 14 times more car accident deaths in 2005 alone than deaths caused by terrorism inside the US in the last decade. In terms of attention, budget, and expenditure of life, the so called risk of terror is VASTLY over-sold, and entirely for political purposes.

Am I helping the enemy now?
So therefore the loss of American lives in Iraq isn't worth getting worked up over either and is VASTLY over-sold?

Tell me what is your over-sold thresh hold?

Exactly how much death, destruction, and disruption does it take to make ratbastid take notice?

Do you stroll by on fine spring days and someone says 'hey weren't there two buildings over there yesterday?' and you say 'well yes, but car accidents cause more death. Anyways lets get a coffee.'

Does someone say 'Man this is like the Vietnam war all over' and you say 'well really we barely lost more men in Vietnam than a year worth of car crashes, and that was over an entire decade, cars are 10 times more dangerous, so this whole Vietnam thing was VASTLY over-sold.'

The greatest loss of Civilian life in an attack in the US ever, shut down on of the most important cities on the planet for a week, disrupted international trade and travel for days, but really the threat was over-sold.
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:23 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
So therefore the loss of American lives in Iraq isn't worth getting worked up over either and is VASTLY over-sold?

Tell me what is your over-sold thresh hold?

Exactly how much death, destruction, and disruption does it take to make ratbastid take notice?

Do you stroll by on fine spring days and someone says 'hey weren't there two buildings over there yesterday?' and you say 'well yes, but car accidents cause more death. Anyways lets get a coffee.'

Does someone say 'Man this is like the Vietnam war all over' and you say 'well really we barely lost more men in Vietnam than a year worth of car crashes, and that was over an entire decade, cars are 10 times more dangerous, so this whole Vietnam thing was VASTLY over-sold.'

The greatest loss of Civilian life in an attack in the US ever, shut down on of the most important cities on the planet for a week, disrupted international trade and travel for days, but really the threat was over-sold.
Don't go there. I mourn the losses we took on 9/11 as much as anyone, and certainly more than those who would twist the lessons of that day for political ends.

Yesterday, Fox News asserted that Al Qaeda is behind the California wildfires. See
. I mean, you call 9/11 conspiracy folks insane! You're going to tell me that the terrorism threat ISN'T being over-sold for political purposes??

This really ought to speak to you, Ustwo, if you can pull your head out of the administration's "fur us or aggin us" terrism sales pitch, because it's really a matter of cost/benefit analysis. In terms of protecting americans and keeping them safe, alive, financially solvent, healthy, and happy--is spending trillions on dismantling a middle-eastern non-threat nation really an effective use of our funds? Does putting American hopelessly in debt--a debt our great-grandchildren will be lucky to be able to afford interest payments on--really get as much benefit as a few percent of that amount spent on domestic programs? Given your position on financial conservatism, I don't understand why your blood isn't totally boiling about the way your administration has acquitted itself and the choices it's made.

If I could spent 1/100 the war budget on making cars safer and thereby save, say, five times the 9/11 casualties every single year, wouldn't that be worth it? That's all I'm saying.

To say the loss of American life in Iraq is a result of terrorism is just flat disingenuous. You can't invade somebody's country and then call their response terrorism. If we hadn't made the massive mis-step and--yes, I'll say it--overreaction that was our Iraq policy, we wouldn't be losing those lives.

On the other hand, I fully supported our action in Afghanistan. These days I'm not so sure exactly what we're doing there, so I can't say whether I still support it or not. But going after people who had direct input into what happened on 9/11, I'm completely and entirely FOR.

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Old 10-26-2007, 06:36 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
That was for Shauk.

It undermines the country in that the implication is if you enlist you are obviously stupid and should die. We need people to enlist. Do I think its a major issue? No I doubt anyone who thinks its funny would have the type of character to enlist anyways. I do think the 9/11 conspiracy nutjobs have in fact hurt the country by convincing a large number of undereducated and naive people that the risk of terror is a lie.
<h3>YES !!! YES!!!! "the risk of terror is a lie"...a "lie" designed to shift authority and wealth to the folks (from the rest of us...) who hammer it home....over and over. ....a "lie" that has cost some of us our humanity, too many lives, too much money..... 9/11...9/11....9/11....vote for "daddy" Rudy G. !!!! 2008 !</h3>

...because....on 9/11....Rudy....and he'll "keep us safe"...from the "bad" people.....


Is misplaced "outrage" what is killing our country?
Quote:
....Some folks are born
made to wave the flag,
Ooh, they're red, white and blue.
And when the band plays "Hail to the chief",
they point the cannon right at you.....

...Some folks inherit
star spangled eyes,
Ooh, they send you down to war.
And when you ask them,
"How much should we give?"
They only answer "More! More! More!"....

-John Fogerty
If the noisemakers below could only focus their outrage on "real" things.....about the deaths of innocents....the ambition....the warcrimes
Quote:
http://blogsearch.google.com/blogsea...skip&scoring=d
Ted Rall Continues His Jihad Against American Troops
6 hours ago by beth
Idiot jihad cartoon. Ted Rall is a cartoonist who apparently spends a great deal of his time bitterly lashing out against our Troops. I’ve wondered before what kind of mind comes up with this kind of seditious hate-filled lunacy. ...
Blue Star Chronicles - http://bluestarchronicles.com

Cartoon that is not very funny...
16 hours ago by mycouponsgreg
Ted Rall online The above link is to a Ted Rall cartoon. According to his site:. His cartoons now appear in more than 140 publications, including the Philadelphia Daily News, Aspen Times, Hartford Advocate, Newark Star-Ledger, ...
mycoupons.com Shopping Boards - http://www.mycoupons.com/boards

Seeing the Elephant
16 hours ago by Callimachus
Michael Yon has a close encounter with the Talented Mr. Beauchamp. Yon's politely asks the detractors to back off:. Beauchamp is young; under pressure he made a dumb mistake. In fact, he has not always been an ideal soldier. ...
Done With Mirrors - http://vernondent.blogspot.com/

Typical Liberal Showing ‘Support’ For The Troops
18 hours ago by Charles Signorile
Ted Rall whom I must confess i have never heard of before, has printed a cartoon this week which can in no way be described as anything but insulting to American soldiers. I decided to try and find out a little more about the person who ...
Constitutionally Right - http://constitutionallyright.com

Evolution in Action Update
19 hours ago by Uncle Pavian
From the unspeakably depraved Mr. Ted Rall comes this insight into the thinking of people who, like our Congressperson, Nancy Boyda (Democrat, Kansas), say they support the troops but hate the war: NB The reference to Nancy Boyda ...
West Neanderthal Drive - http://westneanderthaldrive.blogspot.com/

Degenerate Attention Whore Thanks Troops for Free Speech
20 hours ago by Patrick
When Ted Rall dies, his hateful corpse will be cut into innumerable little pieces and made into a road. When American troops die, they’ll walk down that road on their way to meet St. Peter. {Allahpundit}
Dog Opus Blog - http://dogopus.com/blog

Ted Rall: Only Idiots Die in Iraq, US IQ Soars
21 hours ago
Here’sa look into the squirmy, ugly mind of Ted Rall, whose latest cartoon about US troops in Iraq says: “Only idiots signed up; only idiots died. Back home, the average IQ soared.” (Hat tip: LGF readers.)
Little Green Footballs - http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/ - References
Ohhhh!!!! The microscopic neighborhood where today's "theme" is outrage over an "effing" cartoon is brought onto our TFP politics forum in the form of a thread devoted to outrage over said cartoon....seems there's much less "outrage" over the reality of US War Crime:
www.iraqbodycount.org/ ....

Is our military this "tiny"....this fragile.... listing to port...from a "direct hit" from....a cartoon?

It shrugs off accusations of war crimes....the sites listed above, shrug off such talk....yet we executed the perpetrators of "pre-emptive, aggressive war", and called it the ulitmate crime against humanity:

George J. Tenet, the former director of central intelligence, has lashed out against Vice President Dick Cheney and other Bush administration officials in a new book, saying they pushed the country to war in Iraq
without ever conducting a “serious debate” about whether Saddam Hussein posed an imminent threat to the United States....
Quote:
.......“There was never a serious debate that I know of within the administration about the imminence of the Iraqi threat,” Mr. Tenet writes in a devastating judgment that is likely to be debated for many years.
<b>Nor, he adds, “was there ever a significant discussion” about the possibility of containing Iraq without an invasion.......</b>
I've never been discouraged from calling what happened in Iraq, what it is....a crime of "War of aggression"....what was described by US prosecutors at Nuremberg as the "ultimate crime against humanity"....because it spawns so many other crimes, once such a war is pursued.
Quote:
http://www.roberthjackson.org/Man/Sp...arris_Tyranny/
<b>The Crime Of Waging Aggressive War</b>

An Address by Whitney R. Harris

Prosecutor at the Trial of the Major German War Criminals
At Nuremberg and the Author of TYRANNY ON TRIAL
The Robert H. Jackson Center
October 1, 2004

.........We need not trouble ourselves about the many abstract difficulties that can be conjured up about what constitutes aggression in doubtful cases… By all the canons of plain sense, these were unlawful wars of aggression in breach of treaties and in violation of assurances.”

Justice Jackson observed that these were the wars of aggression of the defendants in the dock. He concluded his closing speech with this analogy. “[These defendants] stand before the record of this trial as blood-stained Gloucester stood by the body of his slain king. He begged of the widow, as they beg of you: ‘Say I slew them not.’ And the Queen replied, ‘Then say they were not slain.” But dead they are…’ If you were to say of these men that they are not guilty, it would be as true to say there has been no war, there are no slain, there has been no crime.”

Upon the conclusion of the arguments of counsel, the case was submitted to the Tribunal for its opinion that was issued on October 1, 1946, precisely fifty-eight years ago to this very day. On the issue of aggressive war, the Tribunal declared: “The charges in the indictment that the defendants planned and waged aggressive war are charges of the utmost gravity. War is essentially an evil thing. Its consequences are not confined to the belligerent states alone, but affect the whole world. To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime, differing only from other crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.”

The Tribunal held that of the twenty-two defendants brought to trial before it, twelve were guilty of the crime of waging aggressive war. ..........
Nothing will happen unless each of us can admit to ourselves that our elected leaders seem to have done this....ordered it....knowing that it was avoidable and not justified by an "imminent threat".
....but we have a cartoon here....and it is an outrage!!

Last edited by host; 10-26-2007 at 06:52 AM..
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:01 AM   #19 (permalink)
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ratbastid - Before I tear you apart did you imply we spend more on this war than domestic programs? Surely I misread that.

EDIT: I think I did in fact misread it, it appears you think a few % of that money would do some good to the already 400+ billion we spend on social programs a year.
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Last edited by Ustwo; 10-26-2007 at 07:05 AM.. Reason: Got the numbers mixed up.
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:16 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
That was for Shauk.

I do think the 9/11 conspiracy nutjobs have in fact hurt the country by convincing a large number of undereducated and naive people that the risk of terror is a lie.
Well I’m certainly not an orthodontic weatherman, but I’m close to finishing a Masters, have visited and experienced cultures all over the world, and served 5 years in the military before being injured in combat and honorably discharged. While it is minor in comparison to someone with the confidence to regularly make such judging presumptions, its enough didactic instruction and world experience to reciprocate your ongoing commentary.

If I sound agitated or offended, I’m not- and I know that wouldn’t matter to you. The fact you are keeping it civil by not attaching member names to your assessments explains why they are popping up more and more unchallenged or moderated.

Its probably because I’m in the minority. Things like Bigfoot and UFOs do belong in the Ripley’s Believe or Not tent. I admit I’m one of those “undereducated, uneducated, naïve, nut job, wackjob” paranoids that fits in your criteria. Ofcourse I will disagree with your conjecture of what is damaging this country.

Your wordsmithing is ironic to me when you throw out naïve. So in that since I can relate to the lack of patientce you have. I know you feel people should support the fatherland and be good little Americans and carry on to and fro, trust the government has the very best intentions, and submit to the spoon fed garbage that spouts out of the media. “hey you’re a great American!” It’s difficult for me not to use the very labels that have defined your trademark demeanor on people that believe what comes out of the White House.

I know you could care less, I really do know that, but perhaps consideration for certain areas of the paranoia forum should be at least reexamined. Namely anything that has to do with goverrnemt corruption. Especially since you are going in there stating the same shit when people mention it anywhere else. What defines something as conspiracy THEORY? Do statements from the government denying any dark allogations make it factual?

I’ll use an example that doesn’t bring science into the equation: The USS Liberty was accidently attacked. Right – just mistaken identity with an American Flag clearly flying markings within plain view and several hours worth of radio communications both attemting to stop the attackers, and calling for help.

That was not an attempt to bring the US into that ME scuffle through a false flag attempt. Something like that is delusional. It’s delusional, naïve, or a successful applied saturation of denial to call the events as recognized by the two sides factual.

I wonder how much something has to be in a person’s face before they even begin to at least question actions that undenayably point to consistent profits being made, agendas becoming relized, and knowing that blow back is real.

I agree with you there is violent intentions aimed at the US. I won’t put words in your mouth, but the nature of your attitude and scuffing of what is clearly apparnt to people like me makes me wonder; do you actually think we will win the “War on Terror”? Do you think maybe we should just stop beating around the “Bush” and just go ahead and bomb the shit out of Mecca. Well it may not be long before you can gloat and smile, because the drums are starting to beat again. We need to protect American interests and go liberate the Iranians.


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Old 10-26-2007, 07:24 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Location: Yonder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
ratbastid - Before I tear you apart did you imply we spend more on this war than domestic programs? Surely I misread that.

EDIT: I think I did in fact misread it, it appears you think a few % of that money would do some good to the already 400+ billion we spend on social programs a year.
The fact is, war-related spending is already bigger than--and is growing dramatically faster than--spending on domestic programs. Here's a link from 2004 that shows that between 2001 and 2003, war-related spending grew by 49.6% while the budget for domestic programs outside "homeland security" grew by 13.2%. The disparity has only grown since then.

According to this article, war spending has been ahead of non-war spending since 2004. War spending in 2007 is 4.0% of our GDP, and non-war spending is 3.6%, and the gap is projected to widen by another .3% in 2008.

So, yes, I'm telling you the war is a MASSIVE SUCKING FINANCIAL SINKHOLE that isn't buying REAL Americans anything in terms of REAL safety. And if we spent that money (or some fraction of it) on REAL things that impact REAL American's lives, we could make a REAL difference. Instead we focus on the FAKE FAKE FAKE terrists.

Why do you think our administration does that, Ustwo? Why are they concerned about terrorism instead of car crashes? Why is more than half of the government's discretionary budget going into that? I invite you to THINK about this, rather than regurgitate something or ignore the question. What would be their motivation to put the focus and funding there, given the disproportionately small statistical risk of terrorist harm to American lives and interests?

You're a scientist, Ustwo, but on this issue you speak very unscientifically. Do the math here. It's cost/benefit analysis. If you can get dispassionate about your preconceived beliefs, you might see something new about it.

Last edited by ratbastid; 10-26-2007 at 07:42 AM..
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:44 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
ratbastid - Before I tear you apart did you imply we spend more on this war than domestic programs? Surely I misread that.

EDIT: I think I did in fact misread it, it appears you think a few % of that money would do some good to the already 400+ billion we spend on social programs a year.
Quote:
http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation/story/331905.html
War cost in Afghanistan, Iraq could go to $2.4 trillion in next decade
By LISA ZAGAROLI
McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON | The cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could total $2.4 trillion in the next decade, according to a nonpartisan budget analysis issued Wednesday.

The White House dismissed the figures from the Congressional Budget Office as hypothetical.

“We are on an unsustainable fiscal path, and something has to give,” CBO director Peter Orszag said in presenting the estimates to the House Budget Committee at the request of its chairman, Rep. John Spratt, a South Carolina Democrat.

Spratt said he wants to highlight the cost of the wars, particularly the one in Iraq, so the public and policymakers will understand the tradeoffs.

“The $2.4 trillion estimate is half of what it would take to keep Social Security solvent for 75 years. People can relate to that,” he said in an interview.

The budget office analysts looked at two war scenarios to calculate a cost beyond the $600 billion already spent, including $450 billion in Iraq alone. Including requested appropriations for fiscal 2008, the total cost is about $800 billion.

One scenario involved a troop withdrawal from 200,000 in 2008 to 30,000 in 2010, remaining at that level through 2017. That would cost an additional $570 billion, Orszag said.

The other scenario calculated the cost of leaving 75,000 troops in from 2013 to 2017 at $859 billion over spending through 2008.

For the first time, the Congressional Budget Office also included interest in its calculations, because the wars have essentially been paid for with federal borrowing. Interest payments on spending so far would total $415 billion. Under the first scenario, there would be an additional $175 billion in interest payments, and under the second scenario, $290 billion in debt service would be added.

Rep. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin, the ranking Republican on the committee, said the estimates fail to show that as a percentage of gross domestic product, the nation is better equipped to pay for these conflicts than previous wars.....


...The Bush administration has declined to make long-term projections because “the war is ever-changing” and costs are difficult to predict, said Sean Kevelighan, press secretary for the White House budget office........

...not a problem....we're fightin' 'em over there, so we can bankrupt our national treasury, over here....

http://www.kitco.com .... Gold, $780.00.... Oil $91.00 ...US dollar buy .9629 cents Canadian...this AM...and a Euro is "on sale" at $1.439....

....dollar is down three more cents, in just two weeks? Wow !

Quote:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/...ess/dollar.php
Strong silence from U.S. on dollar's weakness
By Edmund L. Andrews
Published: October 10, 2007


....On Wednesday, the dollar was trading at about 1.408 against the euro - slightly off its all-time low earlier this month. <h2>In January 2002, the dollar was worth about 0.89 per euro.....</h2>
<h2>Selfless...patriots...."Keepin" us safe....."safe" from...."the other":</h2>

Quote:
http://baltimorechronicle.com/media3_oct01.shtml
Republican-controlled Carlyle Group poses serious Ethical Questions for Bush Presidents, but Baltimore Sun ignores it
by Alice Cherbonnier

AN IMPORTANT TENET of journalism is that you should always ask, “Who benefits?”

In the case of a war, the answers to this question become of paramount importance. Suppose, for example, that profits from military contracting were to go in the pockets of a former U.S. President whose son (and a presumed future heir) is now President? Suppose further that such profits escalate in times of conflict. Wouldn’t this be of concern to the public? Wouldn’t you expect the media to be all over such an important ethical (not to mention moral, and maybe legal) angle?

Though described by the Industry Standard as “the world’s largest private equity firm,” with over $12 billion under management, chances are readers haven’t ever heard of The Carlyle Group. Isn’t that a little odd, considering it is run by a veritable who's who of former Republican political leaders. Former Defense Secretary Frank Carlucci is Carlyle’s chairman and managing director (who, by the way, was college roommate of the current Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld). And that partners in this mammoth venture include former U.S. Secretary of State James A. Baker III, George Soros, Fred Malek (George H.W. Bush’s campaign manager, forced to resign when it was revealed he was Nixon’s “Jew counter”), and—presumably—George H.W. Bush?......

.........Not only have some newspapers and magazines brought The Carlyle Group out of the shadows it prefers, but this enterprise has attracted the attention of The Center for Public Integrity and Judicial Watch, both of which have concerns about the ethical propriety of having high-placed former government officials—trained at taxpayer expense, too—out there reaping over 20% to 40% a year by working their connections. You have to wonder if these former public servants are just simply greedy, or if they’re telling themselves they’re true patriots by doing behind-the-scenes cloak-and-dagger stuff.

This is a big story. We were wondering if, in the wake of current events, we were the only newspaper that was asking that question, “Who benefits?” And then we found that the Wall Street Journal was asking the right questions, too, and we were vastly relieved not to be left hanging out to dry. On Sept. 27, the WSJ published a “Special Report: Aftermath of Terror” with the headline “Bin Laden Family Could Profit From a Jump In Defense Spending Due to Ties to U.S. Bank.” The “bank” is actually The Carlyle Group (and by the way, we peons can’t invest in it, and it sure isn’t taking deposits from the general public). The lead sentence reads: “If the U.S. boosts defense spending in its quest to stop Osama bin Laden’s alleged terrorist activities, there may be one unexpected beneficiary: Mr. bin Laden’s family.” And, though the WSJ curiously did not mention this, another beneficiary may be George H.W. Bush’s family.
Quote:
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...AA0894D9404482
<b>Elder Bush in Big G.O.P. Cast Toiling for Top Equity Firm</b>
March 5, 2001, Monday
By LESLIE WAYNE (NYT); National Desk

During the presidential campaign last year, former President George Bush took time off from his son's race to call on Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia at a luxurious desert compound outside Riyadh to talk about American-Saudi business affairs.

Mr. Bush went as an ambassador of sorts, but not for his government. In the same way, Mr. Bush's secretary of state, James A. Baker III, recently met with a group of wealthy people at the elegant Lanesborough Hotel in London to explain the Florida vote count.

Traveling with the fanfare of dignitaries, Mr. Bush and Mr. Baker were using their extensive government contacts to further their business interests as representatives of the Carlyle Group, a $12 billion private equity firm based in Washington that has parlayed a roster of former top-level government officials, largely from the Bush and Reagan administrations, into a moneymaking machine.

In a new spin on Washington's revolving door between business and government, where lobbying by former officials is restricted but soliciting investments is not, Carlyle has upped the ante and taken the practice global. Mr. Bush and Mr. Baker were accompanied on their trips by former Prime Minister John Major of Britain, another of Carlyle's political stars. ....Private equity, which involves buying up companies in private deals and reselling them, is a high-end business open only to the
very rich.   click to show 


Carlyle has become the nation's 11th largest defense contractor, owning companies that make tanks, aircraft wings and a broad array of other military equipment. It also owns health care companies, real estate, Internet companies, a bottling company and even Le Figaro, the French newspaper...
Quote:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...50C0A9679C8B63
<h3> Eisenhower, Ignored</h3>

Published: March 8, 2001


To the Editor:

Re ''Elder Bush in Big G.O.P. Cast Toiling for Top Equity Firm'' (front page, March 5):

Eisenhower's warning to resist the influence of the military-industrial complex on our government was obviously in vain. The military-industrial complex as represented by the Carlyle Group, a private equity firm, involves not only a former secretary of state, James A. Baker III, and a former secretary of defense, Frank C. Carlucci, but even a former president, George Bush, and through him, our current president, George W. Bush. This is now our government.

PHILIP WALKER
Santa Barbara, Calif., March 5, 2001
Quote:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...n13963936/pg_8
Family ties; The Bin Ladens
Sunday Herald, The, Oct 7, 2001 by Home Affairs Editor Neil MacKay
<< Page 1 Continued from page 7.

...... The board of directors included members of the Shakarshi family, linked to a money-laundering scandal and drug-trafficking in Zurich. A member of the Shakarshi family was also a director of the SICO office in London. There have been allegations that the Zurich company was a CIA front used to finance Afghan resistance - in which bin Laden was a prime mover - during the Soviet occupation of the country. Yeslam bin Laden continues to maintain relations with the Shakarshis.

The bin Laden family - and Yeslam in particular - have long- standing links to Al Bilad, a London-Geneva company used as part of the negotiations over the Anglo-Saudi Al Yamama arms-for-oil agreement, which was worth (pounds) 21.5 billion. Present at the negotiations was the now disgraced former Tory minister Jonathan Aitken, sent by John Major to represent the UK. Major claims he has no connection to the bin Laden family, despite his links to them through his job as European chairman of the Carlyle Group. Mark Thatcher was also involved in the Al Yamama deal.

Major is not the only significant world leader to be dragged into this mess. The Carlyle Group also counts former US President George Bush senior among its team. The former president even met the bin Laden family in Jidda in November 1998.

Current President George W Bush is also tangentially linked to Osama. Bush's lifelong friend James Bath acted as a representative in Texas for Osama's older brother, Salem, between 1976 and 1988. Bath bought real estate for the family, including Houston Gulf Airport.

Other companies and organisations connected to the Binladin Group family business include General Electric - the most valuable US company - and Citigroup, the biggest US bank, as well as Motorola, Quaker, Nortel, Unilever, Cadbury Schweppes and the investment bank ABN Amro.....
Quote:
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0218,gray,34384,6.html
The Carlyle Connection
How the Pentagon Learned to Love the Weapon No One Wanted
by Geoffrey Gray
May 1 - 7, 2002

by Rob Nelson
Frank Carlucci never trained much as a salesman. The former CIA spook turned Reagan defense secretary has been working as chairman for the Carlyle Group, the nation's 11th largest military contractor, and for the last five years, he's been championing the the production of 482 Crusader armored vehicles, over $11.2 billion dollars' worth of self-propelled Howitzer firepower.

He might as well have been going door-to-door with vacuum cleaners. Nobody seemed to want the damn things. They were bulky, outdated, expensive. "It looks like it's too heavy; it's not lethal enough," Bush said during a 2000 campaign debate. "There's going to be a lot of programs that aren't going to fit into the strategic plan for a long-term change of our military."

What a difference a war can make.

Late this March, as part of the post-9-11 military buildup, Donald Rumsfeld gave United Defense, Carlyle's subsidiary, the full monty: over $470 million to continue development on the problem-riddled Crusaders, puzzling some military analysts.

.. "Influence is tough to measure, but it's certainly had a friend somewhere."..

Make that a very close friend. Two internal Defense Department documents—letters between Carlyle and Rumsfeld—recently made available to the Voice show the intimate relationship between the Bush administration and the Carlyle Group.

"Dear Don," reads the first note, dated February 15, 2001..
Quote:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/002009.php

09.25.03 -- 10:58PM
By Josh Marshall

...Let me introduce you to New Bridge Strategies, LLC. New Bridge is 'Helping to Rebuild a New Iraq' as their liner note says.


Here's the company's new blurb from their <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20030810105715/http://newbridgestrategies.com/index.asp">website ...</a>

New Bridge Strategies, LLC is a unique company that was created specifically with the aim of assisting clients to evaluate and take advantage of business opportunities in the Middle East following the conclusion of the U.S.-led war in Iraq. Its activities will seek to expedite the creation of free and fair markets and new economic growth in Iraq, consistent with the policies of the Bush Administration. The opportunities evolving in Iraq today are of such an unprecedented nature and scope that no other existing firm has the necessary skills and experience to be effective both in Washington, D.C. and on the ground in Iraq.

A 'unique company'? You could say that. Who's the Chairman and Director of New Bridge? That would be Joe M. Allbaugh, President Bush's longtime right-hand-man and until about six months ago his head of FEMA. Before that of course he was the president's chief of staff when he was governor of Texas and campaign manager for Bush-Cheney 2000.


Allbaugh was part of the president's so-called <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/teambush072399.htm">'Iron Triangle'</a> -- the other two being Karl Rove and Karen Hughes. And now Allbaugh's running an outfit that helps your company get the sweetest contracts in Iraq? That sound right to you? Think he'll have any special pull?....


http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=9433
US: Neil Bush's Business Dealings
by Thomas Catan and Stephen Fidler, Financial Times
December 12th, 2003

....Today, Neil Bush's business partners have a new venture, in keeping with the times. <h3>New Bridge Strategies was set up this year to help companies secure contracts in Iraq following the war</h3>. Mr Howland is chairman and chief executive of the company, while <h3>Mr Daniel</h3> is a member of the advisory board.

The company briefly hit the headlines this autumn because of the impressive roster of Republican heavyweights on its board, most of whom are linked to one or other of the Bush administrations or to the family itself. The company's website has not been shy about advertising its contacts in both the Middle East and Washington.

"The opportunities evolving in Iraq today are of such an unprecedented nature and scope that no other existing firm has the necessary skills and experience to be effective both in Washington DC., and on the ground in Iraq," it said. That phrasing has since been changed.

The list of directors and advisory board members is indeed impressive. Joe Allbaugh, the chairman of the company, was head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) until March 2003 and before that, chief of staff for George W. Bush while he was Texas governor. As national manager for the Bush-Cheney election campaign in 2000, he was one side of the "Iron Triangle" of aides credited with propelling him into the presidency.

Ed Rogers, the company's vice-chairman and director, was a top aide to George H. W. Bush while he was in the White House. Lanny Griffith, another director, also worked in Mr Bush senior's government and on his election campaigns. Haley Barbour, a former chairman of the Republican National Committee who was elected last month as governor of Mississippi, was on the board of Milestone Merchant Partners, a Washington-based private equity fund affiliated with New Bridge, according to the New Bridge website.

A spokesman for Mr Barbour, who is also close to the Bush family, said he resigned from that position in February.

All three are partners at Barbour, Griffith & Rogers, a Republican lobbying firm in Washington, DC. The firm shares an office with New Bridge at 1275 Pennsylvannia Avenue, on the 10th floor.....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer
The Relatively Charmed Life Of Neil Bush
Despite Silverado and Voodoo, Fortune Still Smiles on the President's Brother

By Peter Carlson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, December 28, 2003; Page D01

Ah, it's nice to be Neil Bush...

... Meanwhile, back home in Texas, Bush serves as co-chairman of a company called Crest Investment. Crest, he revealed in the deposition, pays him $60,000 a year to provide "miscellaneous consulting services."

"Such as?" Brown asked.

"Such as answering phone calls when <h3>Jamal Daniel</h3>, the other co-chairman, called and asked for advice," Bush replied.

Ah, it's nice to be Neil Bush, who seems to be living the lifestyle immortalized in those famous Dire Straits lyrics: "Money for nothin' and chicks for free." ......

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/print...503/S00019.htm
Neil Bush & Crest - Another Profiteering Scheme

By Evelyn Pringle

Evelyn Pringle is a columnist for Independent Media TV and an investigative journalist focused on exposing government corruption.

----

Neil Bush, has a $60,000-a-year employment contract with a top adviser to a Washington-based consulting firm set up to help companies secure contracts in Iraq, according to the Nov 11, 2004 Financial Times.

Neil disclosed this employment during a divorce deposition on March 3, 2003. He testified that he was co-chairman of the Houston-based, Crest Investment Corporation, which invests in energy and other ventures, and said he received $15,000 every three months for a average 3 or 4 hours of work a week doing "miscellaneous consulting services." "Such as?" his ex-wife's Attorney asked, "Such as answering phone calls when Jamal Daniel, the other co-chairman, called and asked for advice," Neil answered.

<h3>Crest's co-chairman, Daniel, sits on the advisory board of New Bridge Strategies, a firm set up in March 2003, just in time to cash in on the Iraq reconstruction contracts, by a group of businessmen with close ties to the Bush family, </h3> and both Bush administrations. The firm's chairman is Joe Allbaugh, who was W's campaign director in the 2000, and who was appointed Director of FEMA once Bush took office.

In addition to paying him for "consulting" work, Crest has provided funding for Neil's educational software company Ignite! In fact, Daniel sometimes introduces himself as a founding backer of the company, and has persuaded the families of prominent leaders in the Middle East to invest in Ignite, according to the Dec 11, 2003 Financial Times.

Overall, Crest goes to great lengths to show Neil how much it values his membership on the team. For instance, when Neil got remarried in 2004, Daniel held a wedding reception at his home, and Crest arranged a 5-year rent-free cottage for Neil and his new bride in Kennebunkport, Maine, so they could spend time near Mom & Pop Bush whenever they wanted to.

Another Jackpot - Thanks To Brother W

As usual, during his deposition, Neil forgot to mention a few facts about his earnings potential with Crest. First of all, he didn't mention that he attached his signature to letters soliciting business for New Bridge in obtaining contracts in Iraq, and two, that he attached his name as a reference for an extremely lucrative proposal submitted by Crest to obtain a lease on a parcel of property located on the island of Quintana, Texas, that will result in payments of at least $2 million a year to Crest.

When W took office in 2001, he vowed to make it easier for companies to build coastline facilities to store liquefied natural gas (LNG), a cooled and condensed form of natural gas, shipped in from countries around the world.

That promise sent US companies scrambling to secure coastline property on which to build the LNG processing facilities. One company looking to enter the market was Crest. Although the firm had no experience whatsoever in LNG processing, it had a very influential asset, a co-chairman by the name of
Neil Bush.   click to show 
Quote:

Los Angeles Times
Sep 17, 2003.

THE NATION; Payments to Cheney Questioned; Deferred compensation to vice president from his former employer, Halliburton Co., stirs complaints from Senate Democrats.

Vice President Dick Cheney, a former CEO of Halliburton Co., has received hundreds of thousands of dollars from the company since taking office while asserting he has no financial interest in the company, Senate Democrats said Tuesday.

The Democrats demanded to know why Cheney claimed to have cut ties with the oil services company, involved in a large no-bid contract for oil reconstruction work in Iraq, when he was still receiving large deferred salary payments.

Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle (D-S.D.) and Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.) said the revelations reinforced the need for hearings about the no-bid contracts Halliburton received from the Bush administration.

"The vice president needs to explain how he reconciles the claim that he has 'no financial interest in Halliburton of any kind,' with the hundreds of thousands of dollars in deferred salary payments he receives from Halliburton," Daschle said in a statement.

On NBC's "Meet the Press" program on Sunday, Cheney, who was Halliburton's chief executive from 1995 to 2000, said he had severed all ties with the Houston-based company.

"I have no financial interest in Halliburton of any kind and haven't had now for over three years," he said.

Cathie Martin, a Cheney spokeswoman, confirmed that the vice president has been receiving the deferred compensation payments from Halliburton, but she disputed that his statements on "Meet the Press" had been misleading.

Cheney had already earned the salary that was now being paid, Martin said, adding that once he became a nominee for vice president, he purchased an insurance policy to guarantee that the deferred salary would be paid to him whether or not Halliburton survived as a company.

"So he has no financial interest in the company," she said.

But Lautenberg said that Cheney's financial disclosure filings with the Office of Government Ethics listed $205,298 in deferred salary payments made to him by Halliburton in 2001, and another $162,393 in 2002. The filings indicated that he was scheduled to receive more payments in 2003, 2004 and 2005.

"In 2001 and 2002, Vice President Cheney was paid almost as much in salary from Halliburton as he made as vice president," Lautenberg said.

The U.S. vice president's salary is $198,600 a year.

The financial disclosure forms also said Cheney continued to hold 433,333 unexercised Halliburton stock options, with exercise prices below the company's current stock market price.

Cheney's spokeswoman said he had placed these options in a charitable trust, and no longer had control over them.

On "Meet the Press," Cheney also said he had no involvement in the awarding of government contracts to Halliburton.

"As vice president, I have absolutely no influence of, involvement of, knowledge of in any way, shape or form of contracts let by the Corps of Engineers or anybody else in the federal government," he said.

In March, Halliburton was granted, without competition, a contract by the Army Corps of Engineers to repair and restore Iraq's oil fields. The corps says the cost of this contract to taxpayers is about $1 billion.

Under a second military support contract, Halliburton's Kellogg Brown & Root unit has racked up over $1 billion in expenses in Iraq, according to the U.S. Army Field Support Command.

*******
E-Mail Links Cheney's Office, Contract Officials Say Only Involvement in Halliburton Deal Was Announcing It. By Robert O'Harrow Jr. ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Jun1.html
<b>Halliburton Stock Chart....the Invasion of Iraq Began in March, 2003:</b>
<center><img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/5y/h/hal"></center>

Quote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...325971,00.html


Bush special envoy embroiled in controversy over Iraq debt


Consortium plans to cash in as Baker asks countries to end £200bn burden

Read the documents

Naomi Klein
Wednesday October 13, 2004
The Guardian

President Bush's special envoy, James Baker, who has been trying to persuade the world to forgive Iraq's crushing debts, is simultaneously working for a commercial concern that is trying to recover money from Iraq, according to confidential documents.

Mr Baker's Carlyle Group is in a consortium secretly proposing to try to collect $27bn (£15bn) on behalf of Kuwait, one of Iraq's biggest creditors, by using high-level political influence. It claims Mr Baker will not benefit personally, but the consortium could make millions in fees, retainers and commission as a result.....

.....Kathleen Clark, a law professor at Washington University and a leading expert on government ethics and regulations, said this meant that Mr Baker was in a "classic conflict of interest".

"Baker is on two sides of this transaction: he is supposed to be representing the interests of the US, but he is also a senior counsellor at Carlyle, and Carlyle wants to get paid to help Kuwait recover its debts from Iraq."

She added: "Carlyle and the other companies are exploiting Baker's current position to try to land a deal with Kuwait that would undermine the interests of the US government.".....

Daddy Bush claimed in 2003 that he had severed his ties with Carlyle, but here is, still shilling for them, just last year:

Quote:
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/worl.../21/2003298492
Former US president lobbies China over Citigroup bid: report

AFP, SHANGHAI
Tuesday, Mar 21, 2006, Page 10

<b>Former US president George Bush has personally lobbied the Chinese government to back a Citigroup-led consortium's bid</b> to buy into Guangdong Development Bank (廣東發展銀行), state press reported yesterday.

"On my personal behalf, I vigorously ask the Chinese government to support the US companies' efforts to buy into Guangdong Development Bank," Bush said in a letter to China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

"I sincerely believe that the deal would be conducive to the overall development of the Sino-US relationship," the official 21st Century Business Herald quoted the letter as saying.

<b>The consortium led by US banking giant Citigroup has reportedly bid 24.1 billion yuan (US$3 billion) for an 85 percent stake in Guangdong Development Bank.

The Carlyle Group, a US venture capital firm with close links to Washington, is also part of the consortium</b>.

The Citigroup consortium's main rival is a French-led consortium headed by Societe Generale, which has reportedly offered 23.5 billion yuan for more than 80 percent of the troubled southern Chinese bank.

Societe Generale appears to have its own powerful supporters, with its head of international retail banking, Jean-Louis Mattei, saying last month that an unnamed French government-owned agency intended to become a minor shareholder.

Bush's letter was sent to the foreign affairs ministry at the end of January and passed on to the China Banking Regulatory Commission, a government agency with an important say in the deal.

It appeared to back speculation that state-to-state relations, as well as the merits of the individual bidders, could prove important in determining the winner.

Diplomacy and business strongly overlap in China, where the state owns most of the country's assets, including the nation's banks.
Quote:
http://archive.southcoasttoday.com/d...rld-nation.htm
Bush uncle benefits from war spending
By WALTER F. ROCHE JR. , Los Angeles Times

Date of Publication: March 22, 2006

WASHINGTON — As President Bush embarks on a new effort to shore up public support for the war in Iraq, an uncle of the chief executive is collecting $2.7 million in cash and stock from the recent sale of a company that profited from the war.
A report filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission shows that William H.T. Bush collected a little less than $1.9 million in cash plus stock valued at more than $800,000 as a result of the sale of Engineered Support Systems Inc. to DRS Technologies of New Jersey.
The $1.7 billion deal closed Jan. 31. Both businesses have extensive military contracts.
The elder Bush was a director of Engineered Support Systems. Recent SEC filings show he was paid cash and DRS stock in exchange for shares and options he obtained as a director......

Less than four months after 9/11....9/11....on 9/11....I...blah...blah....blah :

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliani_Partners#_note-4

Giuliani Partners LLC is a management consulting and <h3>security consulting business founded by former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani in January 2002.[1]</h3>

Structure

Rudy Giuliani is Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Giuliani Partners.[2] Many of the managing partners and executives of Giuliani Partners are former New York City officials, counsels, emergency services leaders, etc. from Giuliani's time as mayor.[3] There is a subsidiary of the partnership, Giuliani Security & Safety LLC (before 2005, Giuliani-Kerik), which focuses on security consulting, especially regarding buildings;[4] its Chairman and Chief Executive Officer is Pasquale J. D'Amuro, a former Assistant Director in Charge in the Federal Bureau of Investigation's New York office and an Inspector in Charge following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.[4][1] Other subsidiaries include Giuliani Safety & Security Asia and Giuliani Compliance Japan.[1]

Giuliani Partners' stated mission is "dedicated to helping leaders solve critical strategic issues, accelerate growth, and enhance the reputation and brand of their organizations in the context of strongly held values ... based on six fundamental principles: Integrity Optimism Courage Preparedness Communication Accountability."[5] "No client is ever approved or worked on without a full discussion with Rudy... We're cautious in the right sense of that term, in terms of who we work for. We always want to make sure it is a company that is doing the right thing, that we're proud to represent," according to Giuliani Partners’ senior managing partner, Michael D. Hess, former Corporation Counsel for New York City.[1]

The firm's headquarters are in an office overlooking Times Square in New York.[1]

The firm is privately held. Sources have placed Giuliani Partners' earnings at over $100 million in the five years through early 2007.[1] Another estimate shows it with annual revenues of $40 million and 55 employees.[6] Clients of Giuliani Partners are required to sign confidentiality agreements, so they do not comment about the work they get done or the amount that thay have paid for it.[1] Giuliani himself has refused to talk about his clients, the work he did for them, the compensation he received from them, or any details about the company.[1]

[edit] Controversies

Giuliani Partners has been categorized by various media outlets as a lobbying entity capitalizing on Giuliani's name recognition.[7][8]

Giuliani’s chosen partners at Giuliani Partners have included former FBI man D'Amuro, who admitted taking six non-evidentiary artifacts from Ground Zero as mementos, but against whom no action was taken by the FBI;[9] Alan Placa, a former Roman Catholic priest who was accused of covering up sexual abuse in the church; and Bernard Kerik, Giuliani's former police commissioner, who was later accused of having ties to organized crime[1] and left the firm in 2005.

One of Giuliani's clients during this time included an admitted drug smuggler and millionaire founder of companies that perform electronic information gathering (datamining) on individuals, Hank Asher, who according to a shareholder in the company, hired Giuliani for his "influence with the federal government to enable Mr. Asher to take an active role in Seisint as a chief executive officer despite the allegations about his drug dealing." Giuliani helped Asher's company get $12 million in government grants.[1] After Asher's past was publicly revealed, he resigned from the company; Giuliani defended him to newspapers without mentioning that Asher was a paying client.[1] After Asher's resignation, investors in the company, Seisint, looked into how much Giuliani Partners had been paid: $2 million a year in fees, a commission on sales of Seisint products, and 800,000 warrants for Seisint stock, which would prove valuable when Seisent was sold to Lexis Nexis for $775 million. One investor sued the board, claiming that Giuliani's contributions had not been worth the large amount paid.[1][10]....

http://us.ft.com/ftgateway/superpage...20071350556964

Giuliani Capital Advisors

On December 1, 2004 his consulting firm announced it purchased accounting firm Ernst & Young's investment banking unit. The new investment bank would be known as Giuliani Capital Advisors LLC and would advise companies on acquisitions, restructurings and other strategic issues. On March 5, 2007, as a consequence of his presidential campaign, Giuliani Capital Advisors was sold to Macquarie Group, an Australian financial group, for an amount that analysts said might approach $100 million.[12]
....I know you don't like "cut 'n pastes" Ustwo....and I dislike observing folks with advanced college degrees, permitting themselves to be hoodwinked by greedy thugs masking their greed and treason, under the guise of "patriotism", and "daddyism"...so...

Last edited by host; 10-26-2007 at 07:47 AM..
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:44 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
The fact is, war-related spending is already bigger than--and is growing dramatically faster than--spending on domestic programs. Here's a link from 2004 that shows that between 2001 and 2003, war-related spending grew by 49.6% while the budget for domestic programs outside "homeland security" grew by 13.2%. The disparity has only grown since then.
Of course it would grow quicker, how can we make the beast that is social spending grow quicker. My child spending last year rose 50% over my other expenditures because I had another child, but I still spent way more on other things.


Quote:
According to this article, war spending is 4.0% of our GDP, and non-war spending is 3.6% in 2007, and the gap is projected to widen by another .3% in 2008.
* Medical assistance to low income persons cost $222 billion or 51 percent of total welfare spending.
* Cash, food and housing aid together cost $167 billion or 38 percent of the total.
* Social Services, training, targeted education, and community development aid cost around $47 billion or 11 percent of the total.


Quote:
The cost of the war in U.S. fatalities has declined this year, but the cost in treasure continues to rise, from $48 billion in 2003 to $59 billion in 2004 to $81 billion in 2005 to an anticipated $94 billion in 2006, according to the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. The U.S. government is now spending nearly $10 billion a month in Iraq and Afghanistan, up from $8.2 billion a year ago, a new Congressional Research Service report found.
We are spending less on the war then we spend on straight welfare, the checks, the food stamps that sort of thing, and far less than our social programs.

And I'll like to get a bit philosophical. Its not the governments JOB to give people others peoples money, though thats what it does in spades these days. It is its job to fight wars.


Quote:
So, yes, I'm telling you the war is a MASSIVE SUCKING FINANCIAL SINKHOLE that isn't buying REAL Americans anything in terms of REAL safety. And if we spent that money (or some fraction of it) on REAL things that impact REAL American's lives, we could make a REAL difference. Instead we focus on the FAKE FAKE FAKE terrists.
We have far greater sinkholes in the form of free money we give out to non-productive vote plantations. As for the fake terrorists, thats your opinion, and I completely disagree.

Quote:
Why do you think our administration does that, Ustwo? Why are they concerned about terrorism instead of car crashes? Why is more than half of the government's budget going into that? I invite you to THINK about this, rather than regurgitate something or ignore the question. What would be their motivation to put the focus and funding there, given the disproportionately small statistical risk of terrorist harm to American lives and interests?
This administration doesn't care about car safety? Those bastards! Perhaps we need a war on car safety? While this is an apple in my orange juice, perhaps more could be done for car safety, perhaps we could all drive big rubbery balls that can't go over 30 miles an hour and are centrally controlled. Maybe that IS the better way, but thats protecting people from themselves. Apparently people like their cars they way they are, and have for this administration, and the last one, and the one before that. When car safety was a big problem, it did become a government issue. If you don't think the current standards are enough then feel free to get at it. Maybe Hilary can make that part of her campaign.

Quote:
You're a scientist, Ustwo, but on this issue you speak very unscientifically. Do the math here. It's cost/benefit analysis. If you can get dispassionate about your preconceived beliefs, you might see something new about it.
If I was doing a cost benefit analysis as a scientist I'd say kill off about 20 million Americans as they give us no benefit and they cost a shitload. I'd then nuke all of the mid east except for the oil fields as this would be the greatest benefit with the least cost, though we would need to run the numbers if slave labor would give a greater benefit or just straight genocide.

This is why using a cost benefit analysis is not perhaps the best way to decide this.
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Old 10-26-2007, 08:20 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Of course it would grow quicker, how can we make the beast that is social spending grow quicker. My child spending last year rose 50% over my other expenditures because I had another child, but I still spent way more on other things.




* Medical assistance to low income persons cost $222 billion or 51 percent of total welfare spending.
* Cash, food and housing aid together cost $167 billion or 38 percent of the total.
* Social Services, training, targeted education, and community development aid cost around $47 billion or 11 percent of the total.




We are spending less on the war then we spend on straight welfare, the checks, the food stamps that sort of thing, and far less than our social programs.

<h3>And I'll like to get a bit philosophical. Its not the governments JOB to give people others peoples money, though thats what it does in spades these days. It is its job to fight wars.</h3>




We have far greater sinkholes in the form of free money we give out to non-productive vote plantations. As for the fake terrorists, thats your opinion, and I completely disagree.



This administration doesn't care about car safety? Those bastards! Perhaps we need a war on car safety? While this is an apple in my orange juice, perhaps more could be done for car safety, perhaps we could all drive big rubbery balls that can't go over 30 miles an hour and are centrally controlled. Maybe that IS the better way, but thats protecting people from themselves. Apparently people like their cars they way they are, and have for this administration, and the last one, and the one before that. When car safety was a big problem, it did become a government issue. If you don't think the current standards are enough then feel free to get at it. Maybe Hilary can make that part of her campaign.



If I was doing a cost benefit analysis as a scientist I'd say kill off about 20 million Americans as they give us no benefit and they cost a shitload. I'd then nuke all of the mid east except for the oil fields as this would be the greatest benefit with the least cost, though we would need to run the numbers if slave labor would give a greater benefit or just straight genocide.

This is why using a cost benefit analysis is not perhaps the best way to decide this.
Is it the "government's "JOB" tp give "other people's money" to Daddy Bush, William Bush, Neil Bush, and to former Bush crony, Joe Allbaugh...their "cut" for their perceived influence, with the "decider"....in a "time of war"?

You make the mistake of believing that...because money ends up in someone's pocket, that it is "theirs". "Patriots", committed to fighting a "global war on terror"....or unabashed, war "profiteers"?

....and....if the GOP successfully fields it's "leading presidential contender"...two of America's most prominent "winners", in terms of consolidating authority and cash.....as a direct result of the 9/11 attacks....the office of the US presidency, and Rudy Giuliani, will mesh into the undisputed 9/11 lottery winner..... We'll all live happily ever after, under the protection...24 - 7 of our new "daddy"....Rudy Giuiliani....the former mayor who did not even confirm that the man who he appointed as police commissioner, was subjected to....or had passed....a background check!

I need my "daddy" to be a little more serious, competent....honest....a little less greedy....and more reluctant to wave the flag....and to transfer the people's authority, and the checks and balances, long in place to preserve it....to himself....
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Old 10-26-2007, 08:44 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Just so I'm clear, what you're saying in short, Ustwo, is that you decline my invitation to think, and instead you'll do your usual thing of parroting administration nonsense and mocking opinions other than yours?

I don't believe that if you actually sat and THOUGHT, you'd conclude that the Iraq war is a good use of American resources. I think you're smarter than that, and you're blinded by partisanship and are therefore unwilling to think. Fortunately, not all Republicans are so afflicted, and MANY are coming around.

Last edited by ratbastid; 10-26-2007 at 08:48 AM..
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Old 10-26-2007, 09:03 AM   #26 (permalink)
 
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Location: essex ma
strange that this is happening in a cartoon thread, aint it?

anyway:
let's see if we can sharpen the stick a little.

if i understand the underlying argument in host's number 22 correctly, it is that the iraq war can be understood as a type of class warfare carried out by a particular fraction of the dominant economic class--the one which is linked together by participation in one or more republican patronage network(s).

so if qui bono is a basic question in assessing the meaning(s) of a given situation...and it is...it follows that the war in iraq is an expression of the class interests of these elements of the republican patronage network, which stand to benefit financially from the ongoing debacle.

it is an important claim.
it is a shame that it was not presented more clearly.

the posts cuts to the core of such arguments as ustwo is making in the thread.

he is implicitly put into a position of having to choose whether to address this claim, and by so doing abandon the premises from which he has been arguing--or finding some way to dismiss the claim--which i assume is the function of the "i dont read cut-and-paste posts" pronouncement made either in this thread or another, i cant remember (and dont really care).

if host is correct, then any claim that the iraq debacle is in or serves any "national interest" is absurd---unless ustwo really does accept that the economic interests of the fraction of the dominant order which is tied together by participation in a republican patronage network and "the national interest" are the same---but that would require an argument, and i dont think ustwo can or will make such an argument--you cant simultaneously hold that an interest is both particular and general without making a detailed presentation of how that might be true.

another way: admitting that there is a class interest being served through the iraq debacle undercuts the illusion of national interest being served by it. it undercuts the idea of national interest tout court.

but that notion is itself an expression of another pathology.

so it's easier to proceed as if this claim was not on the table.
but it is.
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Last edited by roachboy; 10-26-2007 at 09:07 AM..
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Old 10-26-2007, 09:41 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I'm gonna try to make my argument clearer.....

We we're told by the PTTB, on 9/11....and after...that we were attacked by:

Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...600455_pf.html
Bush Says 10 Plots by Al Qaeda Were Foiled
Speech Aims to Rally U.S. Support for War

By Peter Baker and Susan B. Glasser
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, October 7, 2005; A01

.....In his speech, originally scheduled to mark the four-year anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks but postponed after Hurricane Katrina, Bush had many terms for his enemy, calling it variously "Islamic radicalism," "militant Jihadism" and even "Islamofascism." He did not declare an end to his "global war on terror," a phrase that some advisers had pushed to abandon in favor of "strategy against violent extremism."

But he did offer what Hoffman called a "far more nuanced" portrait of his enemies, essentially adopting the view of experts that al Qaeda has morphed into a global enemy -- as Bush said, "more like a loose network with many branches than an army under a single command," with operatives united by ideology but not "centrally directed."

Bush, however, rejected the idea that "extremism" had been "strengthened" by the ongoing U.S. war in Iraq, taking strong issue with analysts who believe that Iraq has become a "melting pot for jihadists from around the world, a training group and an indoctrination center" for a new generation of terrorists, as the State Department's annual report on terrorism put it this year.

"To say Iraq has not contributed to the rise of global Sunni extremism movement is delusional," said Roger W. Cressey, a former White House counterterrorism adviser under Bush and President Bill Clinton. "We should have an honest discussion about what these unintended consequences of the Iraq war are and what do we do to counter them."

Some experts have been pushing for Bush to characterize the enemy as an ideology with specific political objectives, such as re-creating an Islamic caliphate to unite all Muslim countries. They argue that in the past Bush handed foes in the Middle East an easy weapon by not making such a distinction, leaving him open to the charge that the United States is waging war on Islam......

President Discusses Global War on Terror
This caliphate would be a totalitarian Islamic empire encompassing all ..... This strategy document is posted on the White House website -- whitehouse.gov. ...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0060905-4.html - 54k -
<h3>...and the faithful parrot the line.....as recently as in the current "festivities"....ongoing as I post this:</h3>
Quote:
http://cornellsun.com/node/25587
Islamo-Facism Week: Offensive or Necessary?

Heartless, Not Stupid
October 26, 2007 - 12:00am
By Bill McMorris

Across the country this week, concerned college students on over 100 campuses took part in the largest conservative student protest in history. The Terrorism Awareness project, founded by prominent conservative activist David Horowitz, organized workshops, film screenings and <h3>protests as part of the group’s Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week.....</h3>
<h3>Why are so few "concerned college students, fighting 'em "over there"....as members of our military?....and what are we "protesting"....in this thread's OP, and on campuses....is it the perceived (by the faithful...) lack of reverence to the "9/11 line"....and for the Bushworld version of "patriotism to be practiced by the masses"....but not by the elite...doing business and networking with their connections....as usual?</h3>


...but the impact is....Iraq in chaos....no progress in Afghanisatn....a worn out US conventional force....a worn out US Treasury...triggering extreme and amazingly rapid US dollar depreciation.....resulting in a similar progression as observed in the post Iraq invasion occupation....and in the aftermath of the Katrina disaster...

huge amounts of government money...borrowed....hurled at "the problem", as common folk are restricted from participating....or are limited....by edict....

"no bid" contracts awarded to chosen patrons only...in Iraq....in New Orleans... Davis-Bacon Act wage regs....immediately suspended in New Orleans..... new "powers" appropriated out of former "checks and balances" safeguards....from surveillance....to timely judicial hearings in the aftermath of criminal charges levied by the executive....to an end run around the bidding process....

It's been only six years since they got this process up and running....and whether it's invasion/occupation of Iraq, disaster response and reconstruction, or management of spending and accountability, or of judicial safeguards and consitutional rights....it's the same pattern....

Iraq/Afghanistan....New Orleans....management of fiscal matters, of the military, of the DOJ.....sums borrowed and expended....no appreciable benefit to anyone not connected to the ruling elite.....and no measurable, sustained progress or improvement for the money spent.

I observe that the "cure"....enhanced national security...or a reconstructed and levee protected New Orleans....comes at a price in dollars and abridged rights...that is too costly to bear....or to perceive any value in....at all.

I predict that the "plan"...is more of the same....especially if the "leading" GOP 2008 candidate is....Rudy....offering his carbon copy combination of "the terror threat we all live under"....the personal and crony profiteering, and the listen to me, but don't examine how I've actually managed my responsibilities, or my reaction to criticism and the legal limits placed on my authority....

Just be an obedient, patriotic American and let us....and our commanders on the ground....fight this war.

I'm worried that all of this leads up to a domestic version of the conditions following the Iraqi invasion.....valueless currency....rule by edict...by a president turned viceroy....with a government so indebted that it struggles just to pay to maintain functioning surveillance/security apparatus at home, and for increasinlgy expensive and ineffectual military operations abroad.

...and we all come to live in conditions....with a dollar that buys nothing, and a wealthy, connected elite, living in their "green zones"....more like post invasion Baghdad....or in New Orleans in Katrina's aftermath....than in the low debt, high dollar valuation, pre 9/11 daze......

If you think that I'm inaccurate....watch the dollar's progress down...and our military's....and our economy.....the "progress" in Iraq/Afghanistan, and New Orleans....and, follow the money....$100 million to Rudy.....the money to Bush's family and friends..... to the son of the CNP, at Blackwater.....and watch for changes in the law....and rulings by the court....

Long term...maybe there is some sort of a threat from a few disgruntled terrorists....but what scares me...is what comes from the GOP next year, and from the folks sponsoring and participating in the Oct., 2007 "Islamo-Facism Week". Their sentiment and activities seem to be a more immediate threat...they're killing the dollar, the economy, and the rule of law, and what remains of the "middle class"....here at home.

Euro cost .89 cents, and now it's $1.44...and oil costs $91.00....and we don't even discuss it......sheesh!

Last edited by host; 10-26-2007 at 10:31 AM..
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Old 10-26-2007, 09:49 AM   #28 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Just so I'm clear, what you're saying in short, Ustwo, is that you decline my invitation to think, and instead you'll do your usual thing of parroting administration nonsense and mocking opinions other than yours?

I don't believe that if you actually sat and THOUGHT, you'd conclude that the Iraq war is a good use of American resources. I think you're smarter than that, and you're blinded by partisanship and are therefore unwilling to think. Fortunately, not all Republicans are so afflicted, and MANY are coming around.
Please stop telling me I'm not thinking because I don't think like you do. This isn't some 9/11 thing where someone ignores physics to justify their take that it had to be an inside job or that a plane didn't hit the pentagon. This is me and you taking the same data, same 'science' and coming to difference conclusions.

I am not parroting anything the administration is saying, said, or will say, as I have no idea what they are currently saying. I pretty much gave up on day to day politics before the 2004 election as if I continued down that path I'd have started to vote from the rooftops. Being angry over what no one here has any effect over is stupid and part of why I left tfp to start with.

I THINK, yes THINK, using this head with a well above average IQ and 30 solid years of the best education available (do you get the point that I'm thinking, and using my brain, and not just one half but both halves, in a combined whole) that the war in Iraq is worth the cost. I don't care what the motivations of Bush, the 'real' 9/11 terrorists, or illuminati, or the NWO are. I think, thats ME, the guy who goes by the name USTWO on tfp, the guy host thinks is an agent of the the shadow government out to get you all, right here, typing this now that the cost of the war is justified.

You, unlike many on tfp, are old enough to have real memories of the cold war. Do you remember that climate? The concept that what was holding war back was not in that we could protect ourselves but that we could hurt them just as bad?

Now I want YOU to think, to stop accusing me of not thinking because I do not view the world as you do. YOU think for a moment and now think of a cold war where instead of the Russians, a people not to far from our own in thought and action, the soviet system aside, people who see no value in dying needlessly for a cause, we have Islamic fundamentalists. Think of THEM with the ICBM's but unlike the last cold war, these are in the hands of people who view their own citizens deaths as just a glorious martyrdom and ours as filthy infidels who need to die for the global Ummah.

This is a game of supremacy. The problem is you don't know when you win, only if you lose. I THINK the invasion of Iraq has helped, I THINK Iran should be bombed instead of strong words being given.

I THINK its time for me to go out and have a nice lunch of sushi.

There is even a lesson in that, if you look deep enough.
__________________
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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Last edited by Ustwo; 10-26-2007 at 09:52 AM..
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:08 AM   #29 (permalink)
Darth Papa
 
ratbastid's Avatar
 
Location: Yonder
Spouting opinion is different from thinking. Actually, it's the opposite. In order to think, you have to be willing to set down your opinion. You have to give up that your view is the One Right View. Personally, I'm willing to have another view than mine be right. So far, I haven't heard any that I can be convinced by.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
I THINK the invasion of Iraq has helped
Explain to me your reasoning for this? I don't see how you can conclude that our invasion of Iraq has done anything but engender more hatred and violence against us while costing us very dearly in lives and money. How has our becoming the region's chief aggressor-and-target changed the nature of this un-detante-able scenario you lay out?

Now: if we were serving the Iraqi insurgents a decisive defeat, I could see your point. But we're not. We're getting our asses handed to us. At best, it'll be an attrition game until we leave--even the top brass says that. How does that do anything but weaken our position?
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:50 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Please stop telling me I'm not thinking because I don't think like you do. <h3>This isn't some 9/11 thing where someone ignores physics to justify their take that it had to be an inside job or that a plane didn't hit the pentagon.</h3> This is me and you taking the same data, same 'science' and coming to difference conclusions.

I am not parroting anything the administration is saying, said, or will say, as I have no idea what they are currently saying. I pretty much gave up on day to day politics before the 2004 election as if I continued down that path I'd have started to vote from the rooftops. Being angry over what no one here has any effect over is stupid and part of why I left tfp to start with.

I THINK, yes THINK, using this head with a well above average IQ and 30 solid years of the best education available (do you get the point that I'm thinking, and using my brain, and not just one half but both halves, in a combined whole) that the war in Iraq is worth the cost. I don't care what the motivations of Bush, the 'real' 9/11 terrorists, or illuminati, or the NWO are. I think, thats ME, the guy who goes by the name USTWO on tfp, the guy host thinks is an agent of the the shadow government out to get you all, right here, typing this now that the cost of the war is justified.

You, unlike many on tfp, are old enough to have real memories of the cold war. Do you remember that climate? The concept that what was holding war back was not in that we could protect ourselves but that we could hurt them just as bad?

Now I want YOU to think, to stop accusing me of not thinking because I do not view the world as you do. YOU think for a moment and now think of a cold war where instead of the Russians, a people not to far from our own in thought and action, the soviet system aside, people who see no value in dying needlessly for a cause, we have Islamic fundamentalists. Think of THEM with the ICBM's but unlike the last cold war, these are in the hands of people who view their own citizens deaths as just a glorious martyrdom and ours as filthy infidels who need to die for the global Ummah.

This is a game of supremacy. The problem is you don't know when you win, only if you lose. I THINK the invasion of Iraq has helped, I THINK Iran should be bombed instead of strong words being given.

I THINK its time for me to go out and have a nice lunch of sushi.

There is even a lesson in that, if you look deep enough.
...Mr. Scientist....does any of the following strike you as odd?


Quote:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/amrarticle.html
....United States v. Ted Olson

In the course of doing research for this article, we learned, to our amazement, that even if, contrary to our evidence, Flight 77 did have functioning onboard phones, the US government has now said, implicitly, that Ted Olson’s claim about receiving two calls from his wife that morning is untrue.

As we mentioned earlier, the FBI report on phone calls from AA planes on 9/11 does not cite records from the DOJ showing that any calls from AA 77 were received that morning. Instead, the FBI report refers merely to four “connected calls to unknown numbers.” The 9/11 Commission, putting the best possible spin on this report, commented: “The records available for the phone calls from American 77 do not allow for a determination of which of [these four calls] represent the two between Barbara and Ted Olson, although the FBI and DOJ believe that all four represent communications between Barbara Olson and her husband’s office.”27 That is, it must be said, a very strange conclusion: If Ted Olson reported receiving only two calls, why would the Commission conclude that the DOJ had received four connected calls from his wife?

That conclusion is, in any case, starkly contradicted by evidence about phone calls from Flight 77 presented by the US government at the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui in 2006.28 Far from attributing all four of the “connected calls to unknown numbers” to Barbara Olson, as the 9/11 Commission suggested, the government’s evidence here attributes none of them to her, saying instead that each of them was from an “unknown caller.” The only call attributed to Barbara Olson, moreover, is an “unconnected call” to the Department of Justice, which was said to have been attempted at “9:18:58” and to have lasted “0 seconds.” According to the US government in 2006, in other words, Barbara Olson attempted a call to the DOJ, but it did not go through.29 The government itself has presented evidence in a court of law, therefore, that implies that unless its former solicitor general was the victim of two faked phone calls, he was lying.

It may seem beyond belief that the US government would have failed to support Ted Olson’s claim. We ourselves, as we indicated, were amazed at this development. However, it would not be the first time that the FBI---surely the agency that prepared this report about phone calls from the flights30---had failed to support the official story about 9/11. We refer to the fact that when Rex Tomb, the FBI’s chief of investigative publicity, was asked why the bureau’s website on “Usama bin Laden” does not list 9/11 as one of the terrorist acts for which he is wanted, <h3>he replied: “[T]he FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”31 ...</h3>
Page 4...first paragraph...NIST letter of reply to appeal...9/27/07:

"As we mentioned previously, we are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse" (Of WTC 1 and WTC 2...)
http://www.911proof.com/NIST.pdf

,,,and...six years after the collapse....the NIST is still promising a report on the free fall collapse, into it's own footprint, of the 49 story tall, WTC tower not hit by an airliner:
Quote:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/r...tc_062907.html
NIST Status Update on World Trade Center 7 Investigation


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
June 29, 2007

....The NIST investigation team initially worked simultaneously on both the WTC towers and WTC 7 collapses. In June 2004, the team shifted to full-time study of the towers to develop needed simulation methods and other research tools and to expedite completion of the WTC towers report. Work resumed on the WTC 7 study in October 2005......
<h3>...tick tock....NIST....tick...tock !!!</h3>

...and in a battle for "Supremacy"....shouldn't you take care to insure that your currency doesn't degrade into near worhtlless, paper, fiat script?

Last edited by host; 10-26-2007 at 10:54 AM..
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Old 10-28-2007, 09:38 AM   #31 (permalink)
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