Telluride

Hispanic groups call for moratorium on work raids

Maybe these hispanic groups should call for a moratorium on illegal immigration.

This isn't the first time I've heard the enforcement of our immigration laws get compared to Nazi Germany. Here is the big, important difference: Jews in Nazi Germany were basically being arrested simply because they were Jews. Illegal immigrants and the companies that knowingly hire them are getting busted for breaking very legitimate laws.

The reason it seems like hispanics are being singled out is because, for obvious reasons of geography, most illegals in this country are probably hispanic. Canadians generally don't have much reason to flee their country, and it's not like millions of Russians are sneaking into America by swimming the Bering Strait.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Infinite_Loser

I say we start deporting the descendants of the European settlers who inhabited the Americas without the approval of the natives already living here, but that's another topic for another day.

Personally, I can't see how anti-immigration laws are legitimate in any way, since most illegals usually occupy the low-end, low-welfare jobs which the majority of Americans would shun.

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ironman

"They took our jobs!"

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pan6467

Ok, let's say I am oooo a big Jelly company in Ohio. I used to use union farmworkers who made decent wages and went to their town and kept mom and pop places open because they had disposable income.

Now, I need to keep my wages down because my competition is using illegals and thus able to beat me badly in the pricing game (since the majority are now looking at prices and not staying brand loyal.... I'm in trouble).

So, I have to find farms not using union laborers and start buying out union workers on my farms, but even then, I find I'm still losing the pricing game.

Finally, I find and use farms that provide me with the good I need at the price I need.... they use illegals in order to do this, I use illegals on the farms I own because I can't afford not to.

These illegals then do not shop like the union employees, send their wages home to bring their families to the US. They live in little shanty's owned by the farmer owner who gets rent, who sells them food and basically keeps them as close to his property as possible so town folk don't see anything.

This is going on in this area of Ohio.

So it is bullshit to say "they are taking jobs noone wants." There are people out there that will do the jobs, they just want at least minimum wage. Even day labor temps are begging for the jobs but get turned away (just ask some of my clientele).

What we are running and what noone wants to admit are barely above slave labor camps. Pathetic. Even worse than the owners that hire these people for $2 maybe $2.50 a day are the people who act like this is no big deal and state, "let them have those shitty jobs." Then turns blind eyes on what is truly happening.

I'll be glad to show you the farms around here and the shacks these people are forced to rent from their employer. I say forced because if they don't live there, the owner calls the cops on them and and gets them sent back.

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Telluride

Please cite the law that the European settlers violated by moving to this nation.

Anyway; there's a difference between punishing criminals and punishing the descendants of criminals.

What the illegals may do once they get here doesn't change the fact that they are, in fact, entering this country illegally. And there's a difference between shunning a job at the wage the employer is offering and shunning a job altogether.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Willravel

Well, that's a matter of opinion. Our hypocritical laws on immigration are tools not to protect us, but to maintain control over what is at it's very nature a slave race. Immigration is not as cut and dry as something like theft or murder, there really is a gray area there. In my experience, illegal immigrints are hard working, functional members of our society that honestly do help us in many ways. California has a very strong ag industry that rests squarely on the shoulders of men named Paco, Marcos, and Jose. I've had the pleasure of working with illegal immigrints several times and I would sooner deport many people to them. In other words, yes they are breaking a law, but the law is absurd and should be changed. I was out in the protests those months ago with my friends when kids walked out of their schools to show their political power. It was a very touching display of the civil power of a people.

I'm interested in IL being liberal and Pan being conservative on this topic.
Murder, rape, biological warfare, and theft to start. We were the invading army that didn't care about the indegenous people to the point where we basically committed genocide. Before the Europeans began mass settlement in the 1500s, the Native American population in Central and North America was something like 112 million.

...Unfortunately, the business' profits couldn't keep up with minimum wage and it looked as if the company was going to go bankrupt. Either way, the people working in the low positions were going to lose their jobs. Being backed into a corner, the Jelly Co. resorted to using immigrint labor. Productivity doubled in the first month and tripled by the third quarter. Profits soared and costs dropped off. The company purchased several dozen acres and expanded it's production capabilities. More immigrint workers were hired and the people who had lost their jobs were broguht back into managerial positions because of their expperience and ability to speak english.

I'm not sure how helpful hypothetical situations are here, but I know this situation or a situation just like it has happened many, many times.

filtherton

Immigration is an interesting subject. Despite the fact that illegal immigration has been a boon to our economy and business in general, the people who seemingly tend to side with business on everything don't really care for it. Also, despite the fact that illegal immigrants are often completely screwed over when it comes to wages, hours, and benefits the people who are generally the strongest supporters of illegal immigration are the same ones who can't stand the globalization because it tends toward worker exploitation.

I don't really have anything to add beyond these broad generalizations.

Rekna

Here is a question for everyone on this forum:


Have you been unable to get a job because of illegal immigrants?


This nation was founded on immigrants and it should continue to be. The only thing wrong with illegal immigrants is the laws that make the illegal. The laws need to be rescinded and immigration needs to be made easier to do legally. I have no problem with doing back ground checks on people before they are allowed to immigrate but if they pass let them come here and work. And if they are productive members of society let them become citizens.

Cynthetiq

That's akin to drug addicts saying that they should be allowed to stay in crack houses, and not be bothered there either. The only thing that makes what their are doing illegal are the laws. Laws nedd to be rescinded and drug taking needs to be made easier to do legally.

Please.
My father and mother both emmigrated to the almost 40 years ago. They sponsored almost each and every relative that they could, and each one of them sponsored each one as they qualified. It took time but they did it legally. It wasn't hard, it just took time.

My parents took jobs from other americans, why? Because other Americans didn't school for those jobs either, mechanical engineering and medical technology. Both are STILL in high demand. Why are there so many non american nurses? Because nursing is in high demand and not enough Americans enter that field which is highly skilled labor and well paid.

Yet I also had family members come on tourist visas and over stay, making them illegals. I have nothing but disdain for those people because they wanted to take the shortcut. Again, all they had to do was bide the time that it took, nothing hard about that.

Yes, they'd have to toil long and hard wherever they were, but that's the roll of the dice of life, you don't get to pick where you are born or who your parents are. I got lucky I was born in the US a citizen by birth.

As far as this being just a "US" problem, it's not, look all over the world with booming economies and you'll see that it's common all over. People want to better their lives.

If you think it's hard here, well, I've been trying to move to another country for 10 years now and I can't because the legality of other countries are even harder than over here.

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Rekna

Getting residency is not nearly as easy as it was in the past. Originally all you needed to do is get on a boat and go to Ellis island. I'm sure when your family came over it was much easier. Today the boarders have been practically shut down. Before if you wanted to move to the US and become a citizen you could. Now days it is nigh impossible, especially if you are from Mexico. People sponsoring you means almost nothing. Ever wonder why they call it i a green card lottery?

I wish we would take a popular vote on this issue and see what the public think.

Carno

How are the US' immigration laws hypocritical? How are we a "slave race"? Why can't immigrants enter the US legally?

Nobody is saying these people shouldn't be here, just that they shouldn't be here illegally.

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The_Jazz

I don't really want to come down on either side of this arguement, so I'm going to do the most uncomfortable thing that I know of - stradle the fence.

One of the problems with the system is the arbitrary limits imposed on various nationalities that want to work here. If you're lucky enough to be English, getting a work visa is ridiculously easy. My company occassionally does intern swaps with some Lloyd's brokers in London, and it's always been very easy for us to get the paperwork through without any big problems. The same goes for most of Western Europe.

There's a cap on the number of Mexicans (for instance) that can come to the US. There's a different one for Indians, Bulgarians, etc.

I think that there's a serious problem within ICE. We had a Bulgarian that we tried to hire to coach for my fencing business. He was in the US on his athlete's visa, which allowed him to stay for 6 months and compete and earn. We wanted to pay him full time, and he started dating a Bulgarian here. We tried to do everything right and get him a work visa as a coach/extraordinary athlete, which is usually pretty easy to prove especially with his accomplishments. They agreed that he was an extraordinary athlete but not a coach since he hadn't coached any finalists at the national level in his sport in Bulgaria. We had him reapply as an athlete, although his career is basically over, and they agreed and gave him a green card within 6 months.

My point is that there are arbitrary rules and quotas and the whole system no longer makes sense. It all needs a major overhaul.

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Carno

I agree with that.

I don't agree that our immigration laws should be rescinded though.

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Cynthetiq

What your ideas are demonstrating here are the the people are able to take care of themselves and more than likely will not be a burden on the state.

My mother-in-law just got back from a 2 year visa in London, she had a hard time renewing since she's a struggling artist and does require more state assitance than a normally gainfully employed or employable person.

As far as just getting on a boat, it wasn't all that easy to get to Ellis Island. People sold everything they had in the countries they left for the opportunity for space on the boat. It wasn't easy to be on a boat for a weeks at a time. If you think coach is bad, consider it as part of ship travel.

From EllisIsland.org

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The_Jazz

I don't think they should be "rescinded", but there's a big difference between rescinding and reworking. In today's world there's every reason to be careful about who we let through the border and grant citizenship to, but arbitrary quotas aren't the way to do that. If more Mexicans or Bulgarians or Chinese or whoever want to apply for citizenship or work visas and can demonstrate that they have a skill we need or a job that needs to be filled, so be it. There needs to be vigalence on who we let in, what job they are going to fill and what they do after they get here.

By the way, in the case of my Bulgarian coach, there are no Americans with his skill set or credentials. Out of 300,000,000 or so of us, not one even gets close to being able to teach his skill set. People like that need to be allowed in easily.

That's sort of my point, I guess. If you're going to be here, you need to be able to demonstrate that you can take care of yourself or that someone will take care of you (in the case of the elderly or disabled). I don't think that anyone would argue that we need more working poor in this country, but that's another discussion.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Carno

Sorry, I know you weren't the one who said they should be rescinded... I was referring to another post.

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JBX

I'd be nervous about raids too...If I were breaking the law. What laws do other countries have if for the same border violations?

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Infinite_Loser

Well, I do believe the European settlers ruthlessly and violenty usurped the land from the indigenous tribes already settling the Americas. As I said earlier, I'm all for anti-illegal immigration laws. Let's start with the descendants of the European settlers.

From an economic standpoint, illegal immigration benefits the US economy. I've yet to see a negative consequence as a result of illegal immigration that usually isn't based on some incorrect assumption. The biggest argument I've seen against illegal immigration is that they take jobs away from Americans, but how many people here have been unable to find a job because of illegal immigrants?

I'm willing to be no one.

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Willravel

Exactly. Laws are support to exist to protect and serve the individual and common good of the society. There is no benifit to keeping immigrints out.

dc_dux

I dont think we can support a completely open immigration policy, socially or economically, as we did earlier in our history. And it certainly wont make up for our colonial exploitation.

We do need a major overhaul of our immigration policy, including stronger border security than a symobolic fence and it should include a path to citizenship (with penalities) for those illegal immigrants already here (which, btw, is only a misdomeanor) in order to bring them into the mainstream as contributing citizens.

We should also continue to ensure that our immigration policy provides for diversity. There are some Repubs in Congress who want to end the Diversity Visa program that allows for 55,000 immigrants a year from mostly Non-European countries. The suggestion that the program provides a cover for potential terrorists is racist nonsense, particularly since al Queda is focusing recruitment on white europeans.

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Telluride

Which law is "absurd"? Having a border?

Nice try. I asked Infinite_Loser to cite the law that European settlers violated by stepping ashore, since he seemed to be comparing them to illegal aliens. I didn't ask for a list of bad things some settlers did AFTER they got here.

So you want open borders? And there are benfits to keeping immigrants out. The environment, for one. More people require more housing, schools, etc. More housing, schools, etc. mean that rural areas eventually become towns and cities.

Why do we need diversity visas?

Another nice try. Doing bad things after you get here isn't the same thing as entering the country illegally. So please cite the law the European settlers violated when they stepped ashore.

And even if the settlers did enter the country illegally, there is still a big difference between punishing criminals and punishing the descendants of criminals.

I'm willing to bet that nobody posting here right now has ever been murdered. I guess that means murders never happen.

Anyway; the arguments that illegals do the jobs Americans won't do or that they take jobs away from Americans are only half-truths. Illegals often take jobs at a wage most Americans won't accept. So technically they aren't taking the jobs from Americans, since businesses probably wouldn't be hiring illegals if they could get a legal resident to work for the same wage. And technically they aren't doing jobs Americans won't do, since a lack of an illegal labor pool would force businesses to raise their wages until legal residents took the jobs.

Hell; I might be willing to mow lawns or clean toilets for the right price. It would be a lot less stressful than my current job.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Willravel

Strawman much? I like the ideas of having borders. I don't like the idea of making people not born in America study for some stupid test that 98% of Americans can't pass, only to have to wait and probably be turned down. I think it's hypocritical to require that foriegners work very hard in America to earn their stay, and the former camptian of my HS football team, Lance, has been on welfare and unemployment and hasn't worked in 8 months. What would be fair is to require that they pass every test that we pass to do what we do. Require them to speak english in order to work with customers. Require them to have the training necessary to do the job they wish to do.
Nice try indeed.

The land now known as the United States of America was occupied, legally under Native American Law, by many civilizations. We settled on land that didn't belong to us, and we stole the land in doing so. Just because they were forgiving at first doesn't mean that we weren't here illegally. Just because a police officer doesn't write you a ticket doesn't mean that you weren't speeding. Also, it was AFTER the europeans got here that they could have committed an offence equal to what people think illegal immigrints. Mexican citizens aren't breaking the law until they get to the US, not before hand.
We should strongly request that all members of our society are contributing to the whole. The fact that these people can be responsible and functional members of our society should mean that they have as much right to be here as anyone else. I'm not saying open the borders completly, as that would mean we'd lose virtually all security. I'm saying that if these people can be a boon to our society, they should be allowed to share in our success. America, as has been said a million and one times, is strengthened by our diversity. With more points of view comes more options and more perspective. If we force these people out, we do so to our own detriment.

Telluride

It was a question, not a strawman. I wasn't entirely sure what you were getting at, so I asked.

Anyway; I see your point, although I don't entirely agree. My first inclination would be to make Americans work harder and learn more about this country rather than make it easier for immigrants.

Sure; many of the settlers did horrible things to the American Indians after they moved here. You'll get no argument from me on this issue, and it wasn't my point.

My points were:

1) In the debate over illegal immigration, it's not uncommon for me to hear someone refer to European settlers as "illegal immigrants". The concepts of legal and illegal can only exist within a framework of laws. I would like someone to cite the law(s) violated by the settlers the moment the stepped ashore with the intention of staying here and making a home. I'm not saying there isn't a law. There very well could be. I'd just like people to provide a little bit of proof for their claims. If you're (not you specifically, but the general "you") going to accuse someone of being a criminal, the least you can do is tell us what law he or she broke.

2) Even if the settlers were illegal immigrants, there's a difference between deporting an illegal immigrant and deporting the descendant of an illegal immigrant.

You said there is no benefit to keeping immigrants out. I posted a legitimate benefit (the environment) and you ignored it.

And I've heard the "diversity is a strength" bit countless times, yet I've never seen anyone prove it. Diversity (differences) is the root cause of all conflict. Not all viewpoints are valid, and we can get differing opinions without the negative effects of tens of millions of people moving here, using up land, resources etc. Read a book. Surf the internet.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Willravel

The strawman was in you suggesting that I didn't want a border. I am fine with a border. A border is simply how we know where we end and someone else begins. The point (or one of the points) is that it shouldn't be a 30' tall electrified fence with razor wire and trained police dogs. The people crossing he border are looking to find a better environment to live in, and I'd venture to say that a vast majority of them are more than willing to work extremely hard to earn that priveledge. Those that don't work do not earn the trust of others and are more likely to go back. I've seen it happen.

Speaking to your inclination: Why not allow the tests to earn visas or to become citizens specific to what their contribution can be? I'd love to teach Mexican people a trade or skill set of some kind. Schools in Mexico are usually pretty bad, only teaching a bare minimum if that.
There is a problem with that. Each tribe often had it's own heirarchial government with it's own laws. This means two things: there was no unified law in North America, and there is basically only a verbal record of laws preceeding the arrival of Europeans. We'd have to move to a case by case basis to deal with this issue. Luckely, I loved my cultural anthropology classes, espically those that delt with the Sioux. There were many Sioux tribes that lived in what is now the Midwest. Preceding the arrival of the Europeans, there were small wars between tribes on occasion over land. Generally, however, it was considered unnecessary to clash with other tribes. Most tribes can be considered hunter/gatherer, and many were nomadic (though not all, such as those that quarried stone). If two groups moved into the same area, their leadership would meet and discuss which would stay. Often, one tribe would stay, and the other would leave with some sort of compensation (in addition to trading). This could be considered to be a "law" in that it was general practice between each independant tribe state, and when it was broken it could result in war. Drawing on that, one could make the case that the Europeans, who removed the Natives by forced relocation, illegally stole the land that was legally occupied by the tribes.

Again, it's not cut and dry, but the case can be made.
Ah, but it's a hypothetical exercise no matter what because we can't remove european descendants. The original settlers were invaders that illegally removed the Natives from their land, so hypothetically the Natives would have been within their right, had they the means, to resist and even remove the Europeans from their home.
Okay, I'll address that. That issue is atually with overpopulation, not immigration. Our towns are already growing into cities. Our cities are already growin into metropolises. The population of our country has grown by 150 million (100%) since 1950. And those are all legal residents. The immigrints are a drop in the bucket.
Not all viewpoints are valid, but anyone who's dealt with team building can see how well diversity can bring the best option to the forefront. I have 4 teams under me and I've found that while like people tend to group on their own, they do better if you step in and diversify. I try to group workers from different cultures and backgrounds together, and I see real world results consistantly. Why can't that work on a larger scale?

You keep citing the usage of resources, but you neglect to mention that we use the resources that they bring. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I see the positive result of immigrint work every day. When I go to the market to pick fruit, when I smell a freshly cut lawn, when I eat basically anywhere out, etc., etc. I worked with Mexican immigrints at a landscaping company, and whitnessed that the 'lazy mexican' cliche is only true on break. They worked harder than anyone I've ever seen. I wish I could hire them at my current company.

BTW, I'm white as snow. While this really doesn't seem to effect me, I just feel very strongly about this.

dc_dux

Telluride....you asked why we need the Diversity Visa Program and the benefits of a more diverse immigration policy.

For most of the 20th century, our immigration policy had immigration quotas by country based on the number of immigrations from that country according to the 1910 census....so in effect, our immigration policy overwhelming favored western european countries. The 1990 law that established the Diversity Visa program simply opened the opportunity to more peoples of other regions of the world.

I understand why some oppose the program and it is difficult to quantify the benefits of a more diverse immigration policy other than the subjective contributions that other cultures bring to the "American" experience.

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Cynthetiq

an interesting op-ed from today's NYtimes.

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Marvelous Marv

Let's see--the "immigrints" flood our emergency rooms for routine medical care, and our L&D wards for free childbirth. Not to mention sonograms and a variety of other treatments. Then the children (and that is ALWAYS plural) go on government aid for the next 18 years.

Hospitals have to make their costs up somewhere, so they jack their fees to the sky. Then health insurance premiums go up 10% a year.

People like Kutulu (meaning LEGALS, without insurance) certainly don't get free care when they need to use a hospital. Employers can no longer afford to offer it to their legal workers. Thus, the hue and cry about the uninsured (that great Satan, Wal-Mart, will be to blame somehow) is started again, and jobs are lost to other countries where costs are lower, due in part to nonexistent or abysmal medical care. The loss of jobs here will, of course, be blamed on Bush.

I thus maintain that legal workers here would certainly "benifit" from lowered health insurance premiums resulting from fewer illegal workers in the US.

Oh, and who should pay the taxes to provide the government aid, increased costs of schools, and the like? According to mindsets like yours, the solution (as always) will be to tax "the rich" at 90% or above. And wonder why those same "rich" don't want to do "their fair share." The only fair thing, of course, is to forbid anyone from checking to see if the children receiving a free education from our taxpayers are entitled to it. Don't forget, if they want to go to college, they don't pay out of state tuition like our citizens must. At least in California--I'm not sure about the rest of the US.

I can hardly wait to hear (again) that illegals pay taxes. No one has ever explained to my satisfaction WHAT taxes they pay at their income levels.

Thank God the Democrats are heading up both houses now. Why, in one day, they've lowered the price of oil. Oh, and the thought of them being in leadership positions has prevented Bush from starting any more hurricanes this year.

I sure feel safe with Democrats running congress.

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