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Originally Posted by willravel
Strawman much? I like the ideas of having borders. I don't like the idea of making people not born in America study for some stupid test that 98% of Americans can't pass, only to have to wait and probably be turned down. I think it's hypocritical to require that foriegners work very hard in America to earn their stay, and the former camptian of my HS football team, Lance, has been on welfare and unemployment and hasn't worked in 8 months. What would be fair is to require that they pass every test that we pass to do what we do. Require them to speak english in order to work with customers. Require them to have the training necessary to do the job they wish to do.
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It was a question, not a strawman. I wasn't entirely sure what you were getting at, so I asked.
Anyway; I see your point, although I don't entirely agree. My first inclination would be to make Americans work harder and learn more about this country rather than make it easier for immigrants.
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Originally Posted by willravel
Nice try indeed.
The land now known as the United States of America was occupied, legally under Native American Law, by many civilizations. We settled on land that didn't belong to us, and we stole the land in doing so. Just because they were forgiving at first doesn't mean that we weren't here illegally. Just because a police officer doesn't write you a ticket doesn't mean that you weren't speeding. Also, it was AFTER the europeans got here that they could have committed an offence equal to what people think illegal immigrints. Mexican citizens aren't breaking the law until they get to the US, not before hand.
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Sure; many of the settlers did horrible things to the American Indians after they moved here. You'll get no argument from me on this issue, and it wasn't my point.
My points were:
1) In the debate over illegal immigration, it's not uncommon for me to hear someone refer to European settlers as "illegal immigrants". The concepts of legal and illegal can only exist within a framework of laws. I would like someone to cite the law(s) violated by the settlers the moment the stepped ashore with the intention of staying here and making a home. I'm not saying there isn't a law. There very well could be. I'd just like people to provide a little bit of proof for their claims. If you're (not you specifically, but the general "you") going to accuse someone of being a criminal, the least you can do is tell us what law he or she broke.
2) Even if the settlers were illegal immigrants, there's a difference between deporting an illegal immigrant and deporting the descendant of an illegal immigrant.
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Originally Posted by willravel
We should strongly request that all members of our society are contributing to the whole. The fact that these people can be responsible and functional members of our society should mean that they have as much right to be here as anyone else. I'm not saying open the borders completly, as that would mean we'd lose virtually all security. I'm saying that if these people can be a boon to our society, they should be allowed to share in our success. America, as has been said a million and one times, is strengthened by our diversity. With more points of view comes more options and more perspective. If we force these people out, we do so to our own detriment.
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You said there is no benefit to keeping immigrants out. I posted a legitimate benefit (the environment) and you ignored it.
And I've heard the "diversity is a strength" bit countless times, yet I've never seen anyone prove it. Diversity (differences) is the root cause of all conflict. Not all viewpoints are valid, and we can get differing opinions without the negative effects of tens of millions of people moving here, using up land, resources etc. Read a book. Surf the internet.