Stiltzkin

(censored)

BBtB

No its true. All woman have self esteem issues. Or aleast most. Ironically enough it is the less then perfect ones that are normally on the ball on this. Its the "perfect" ones that always seem to have a problem.

Also most pictures of naked men on the internet is for men as well.

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Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

gov135

I think women sometimes have trouble asserting themselves.

The "men are from mars..." author just came out with a new book, partially about techniques for getting a raise. I heard a radio interview, he feels it is much harder to get a woman to admit she actually deserves the raise than a man.

I think that women are often bombarded with skinny fashion models, the "ideal look," things that aren't obtainable for everyone. I suppose it depends on the individual as to how she handles it, but I can imagine alot of women allow themselves to think they are not worthy. Guys, on the other hand, are told that beerbelly, etc, is okay.

As far as relating self-esteem to porn, I don't know anything about that.

Stiltzkin

(censored)

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rogue49

I just want to mention that MOST of the TFP members are heterosexual males.
Most of our population comes in through Fark's "top boobies" list.

Our gay population is fractional in comparison,
and our female population is fractional in comparison.

All threads are placed by our members, not staff,
sharing their finds around the web.
So it is understandable that it is smaller.

This idea shouldn't be used to support your theory.

duckznutz

Do men and women not respond differently? I always thought that men were easily aroused by visual stimulation, a beautiful woman, a 2D representaion (magazines, internet pcs etc) or even a movie . . . . . whereas women are less likely to get turned on like that (I am not saying they dont!) but if a women fancies a guy that works in her office for example . . she is unlikely to imagine him naked . . more likely to romance about other aspects . . . . . whereas a guy will almost certainly be imagining her naked. This would explain why the ratio of porn for men ad women is so unbalanced! if women had that drive they would be googling for porn all the time . . and in my experience they dont.
As regards low self esteem . . . . . . most of the women I know are pretty assertive and strong . . . . . . maybe by low self esteem you mean 'acting coy' and seeming vulnerable and in need of 'protection'? Its just a trick . . dont fall for it! Run for your life!

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Antagony

I blame media and advertising. Always telling women how they are supposed to look and what-not.

Two of the hottest women I've ever known had horribly low self-esteem about their bodies. I'm not kidding about them being hot.

It's very sad.

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Stiltzkin

(censored)

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duckznutz

But why should they have high self esteem just because they are attractive? I suppose there is a normal distribution of women with high and low self esteem . . just like men. Being attractive is not a reason to have high self esteem. Many gorgeous woemn complain that the nice guys are too shy to approach them (low self esteem?) and so they get hit on by loud cocky arrogant jerks (high self esteem?) who think they are better than they are. Its a complex issue for sure.

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4thTimeLucky

More women than men have low self-esteem because they live in a patriarchal society that has told them from birth that they are subservient to men and treats them as such on a regular basis.

It is as simple as that.

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duckznutz

Patriarchal society? In my experience it is women who control everything one way or another. Take a look at the Titty Board . . . if this was ancient Greece then we would be subserviant and on our knees to pray to the godesses Aria, Sophie, Tammi, Tiffany, Sydney etc etc . . . . . . . . . . . . . . an 18 year old babe can wrap a 50 year old captain of industry around her little finger.

Forget how things appear to be. Behind the scenes it is women who call the shots. The Catholic church would have faded into obscurity after two weeks if it had been down to men . . . women have kept it alive for 2000 years.

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Where your talents and the needs of the world cross . . there lies your vocation.

Stiltzkin

(censored)

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The most important thing in this world is love.

krwlz

I met a girl this weekend who had the gaull to say she was fat...People that look like her, are the reason other girls turn anorexic...Tall thin, and fucking gorgeous...

Podmore

I think you've got two separate things mixed up. First the esteem thing: I really don't think women have lower self-esteem than men on average but (1) it manifests itself a little differently in women than men and (2) it's a bigger issue with very attractive women, in my experience. Women who are very beautiful usually get told so from early on, and start measuring themselves with it. Women who achieve a lot by being smart or creative have a more solid ground to stand on because those things are less transient. Beauty doesn't last. And men with low self-esteem don't do things with their body and such. They usually turn inward or become very defensive about stuff.

Second issue, the porn: It's been pretty well established that women are, in general, more aroused by situation stuff and written erotica than by images. Have you ever noticed how many romance novels are consumed by female readers? Those things are written specifically to appeal to the things women are looking for in a love/sex relationship. Consider it porn for women. Men don't generally have much use for it. They want pictures. So they acquire it in huge amounts. Even gay men (there really are lots of pictures of naked guys on the internet, but the majority of it is targeted to men.

The women who pose for those things don't necessarily have low self esteem (though maybe they're more succeptable to that problem per the first issue). A lot of them just don't see anything wrong with it and like the big piles of cash they can make wthout an education.

Publius

Good points here. I would say that not only most woman but most men also have low self esteems. Very few women, actualy maybe only 1 or 2, I know have good self esteems, but this would also apply to most of the guys I know as well. When woman have low self esteems they often spend alot of time putting themselves down, especially around others. I know both educated (doctors, lawyers, philosophers, ect) and uneducated woman (factory workers, gas station attendants, ect) and I have noticed very little difference in the amount of self esteem that either group has. The educated woman are just a little better at hiding it is all, but once you really get know them damned if they arent as bad if not worse than their uneducated counterparts, but here again I will include most guys that I know as well. We guys, however, display our low self esteems in quit a different way. We compensate with big cars, big toys, big salaries, bagging every woman we can, and in general just going around being super macho. I think that everyone is their own worst critic most of the time.

krwlz

I would definatly agree Publias. Guys have low esteem, but think that having low esteem is bad...Hence the toys, etc. In reality, we are all pretty fucked up...

Double D

Maybe by complaining about our low/no self-esteem we've found a way to have you men believe us to be weaker than we are. Or maybe we are looking for you to feed our egos by challenging what you beleive us to be *suffering from.* Perhaps some of it is merely *man*ipulation.

Publius

Well that sure would explain of hell of alot of things. You know, you shouldnt give away secrets like this, cause now all us men are going to be even more suspecious that we dont have a clue about whats going on.

MacGnG

everyone has esteem problem, even *gasp* cool people, lol but it seems that women's problems are talked about more than men's are

as for the media, etc... i wouldn't blame them, i would blame the people who havent told them otherwise.

~springrain

i agree with many opinions posted here... and i agree that the media plays a major role in how women and men alike view themselves and each other...

women today are bombared with a lot of "images" of how they "should be"... while there are more choices for us... in many ways it is a catch-22...

we are supposed to be confident independant thinkers... have a career... want "more" than to be married and have children... on the other hand... it's still not okay for a woman to be strong, and be out there agressively advocating her stance or opinion... in the workplace... a tough female boss is still perceived a the "bitch"... or as a "player" or "power hungry"... when in the same regard, those traits in a man are seen as an asset... they are viewed as "hungry go-getters"... women are supposed to be the good "girl next door"... be sweet, loving, kind and nuturing... but of course, we need to know how to be a sexy wildcat in the bedroom... and please a partners to their satisfaction... we must be very careful though... in the eyes of society if we are too sexual... we are deemed loose, slutty, and judged accordingly... we are supposed to want a career... and be well rounded individuals... but also want marriage and children... and let's not forget that after we have those children, we should keep the career, and the sexual prowess, and everything else on the list... while we are giving of ourselves daily for our home and children.... i could go on...

now, before people start to jump all over this post and state that women have choices... i will AGREE. we do have choices...

my statements here are only in response to the posted question "do women have low self esteem"... i think that women often times do have low self esteem in that they are constantly trying to measure up to all the idealogies that society has put out there... the choices are often overwhelming, and most of the implied shoulds" contradict one another ...

i do "blame" (blame is the wrong word here) the male-dominated advertising industry for a lot of it... we are constantly fed "picture perfect" images of what a woman/wife/mother today SHOULD be... when in reality, the picture that is presented is not realisitic for anyone.

before you start ranting... please know, this is just an OPINION... i am not trying to male-bash, media-bash, or anything like that... just commenting on what i've perceived...

XenuHubbard

As long as women continue to buy shit-rags like Cosmo, they will continue to have low self-esteem.

Those mags should BURN. BURN, I say.

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Loki

[EDIT]: one thing i kind of forgot to add was that the only one on that list that i think has some degree of beauty is sydney moon... the rest tend to look drugged out, dopey, or dirty imo. (just my personal view, no offense intended)

um, if this was ancient greece, we would be on our knees, but for largely different reasons. You know the current ratio of straight-gay people? well, um, reverse it and you have a pretty good representation of sexuality in ancient greece. Many men viewed women as vessels for childbirth and -nothing- more.

As for the central question, you'd be amazed what people are willing to do when they are paid enough.

on an aside... one wonders when we shall learn to blame ourselves...

~springrain

Only if she plays the "sex kitten card"... and only because she probably wouldn't be given the time of day or respected as a woman with equally valid opinions or viewpoints otherwise.

Women have learned to adapt... and "use their assets" because time has proven, in this yes, PATRIARCHAL society, that that is the only sure way of gaining "control"... though the idea of power in that regard is an oxymoron because in using sex in that way... women are objectified and not truly seen as the person they are hoping to gain recognition for.

What of the 18 year old NON-babe? What are her options? By american societies standards today... she doesn't have many.

jyearwoo

There are alot of really good arguments here. I would have to say that from my experience (not trying to be cynical) most of the women I know that say the proverbial "Im fat" or comments such as these, when they have mirrors and can see that they aren't fat are generally just trying to get complemented. She knows she's beautiful, smart, etc. but she is trying to get a guy to tell her. I agree with the earlier post about manipulation. Some wome really do have self-esteem issues, but I think men have the most self-esteem issues. They just try to hide it for fear that someone will think they are weak.

As far as the porn argument, I think alot of those women have really good self-esteem. They are beautiful, and they realize it, so they use to make money. I don't think they think any lesser of themselves for what they do. Sex is the oldest business, and they use it to get ahead in life. Oh, and the fact that alot of them really, really like sex explains it a little further.

~springrain

in some cases... i think this is true... but don't underestimate the power of the "media standard" and how women truly view themselves...

i speak strictly from my own experience... but i know many others who would agree with me...
when i would look in the mirror and say "i'm fat"... i BELIEVED it... thin or not...
it might be hard for those of you who haven't "walked in those shoes" to understand... but the perception that many women have, of needing to meet the "picture perfect" images on television, in magazines and the like is very real...
it often starts at a young age... when a girls maturity level and sense of self is still in the "developing" stage...

look at the staggering numbers of eating disorders and the staggering numbers of young women who are rushing off to the plastic surgeon to perfect even the tiniest flaws... trust me when i say that most aren't doing it "because it's fun"... or because they are "fishing for compliments"... it's more deeply rooted than that.

Ninja

100% agree there
As for women and self assteem, its a mistrey to me as a male. i have some understanding but i wont embarass my self by posting my thoughs here
Men Are From Mars Women are From Venus is a good read though.. and i speak for me self but its provided me with an insight into the female mind and has help me better understand my own

jyearwoo

Springrain, I agree with you and if you note I said "in my experience". This has been my experience with alot of women, but it is not to say that there aren't women out there with real problems. I was not trying to make a generalization about "all" women, and I apologize if it came off that way. My point with what I said is that you can't take the fact that a woman says "I'm fat" (example) has low self-esteem.

It all basically boils down to a choice of whether you will love yourself, excepting all flawes. This can be equally as hard for both sexes. Speaking from a man's point of view, there are just as many "media standards" out there for us. There are male models, same as female. There are also things we are so many times judged by which are material possessions, success, popularity, etc.

Low self-esteem is equally manifested in both sexes, and I don't think one has it more than the other, and I don't believe it accurate to say that women experience it more than men, men maybe just hide it better.

Stiltzkin

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ARTelevision

~springrain says things we should be listening to and letting sink in. she's smart.

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Tom Thumb

Women certainly have self-esteem issues, and so do men. I don't feel any one gender has more than the other, but men are certainly more preoccupied with not showing theirs. Keep in mind that men are told that the most attractive quality is confidence. So we try our best to all appear confident, and this necessarily means that we bury our self-esteem issues.

As for women and why they do porn...because it's a job they enjoy, and it pays well. I don't see what other reasons there are to consider.

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~springrain

thank you for that reminder...

as the topic is titled "do women have low self-esteem?"... i did not speak to issues regarding men only because i was trying to stay focused on the thread topic (i've been known to stray a time or two *soft laugh*)

anyway... thank you for that bit of insight into men's insecurities as well... duly noted and not forgotten

Tom Thumb

Heh. You're welcome.

I figure the straying is justified since the answer to the topic's question is "obviously yes." We're bound to get into why or men's issues or something else that isn't a direct answer.

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aestivalis

I think women may have low-self-esteem that they're mostly embarassed to go out and do or get what they want.

some like things to... be done or come to them...
or they expect things just to happen