neutone

Here's a scenario. It assumes that there is a spiritual (generic) dimension to our existance. It also assumes that time is irrelevant to that dimension. (Can you imagine Moses, Buddha or Allah checking their watches)

If it were possible to tap into that dimension (prayer, higher self, meditation or other method) and if it were possible to make known( in that dimension) desire, need or simply make a statement of fact that something were to happen, it would be possible for that desire, need etc to occur/be influenced/created beyond the confines of the human time experience.

In other words. Camilla has power to make things happen. She tells the universe that she needs money immediately. Her phone rings in an hour and she inherits money from a deceased relative. In the next 2 hours she receives 2 job orders. This sounds impossible. This is how it happens. Camilla sends a demand ticket to the crew upstairs who are not bound by earth time, they set about planting the seeds that will ultimately flower at the moment that Camilla makes the wish. The crew from the other side are putting suggestions into peoples minds, creating opportunities and setting the scene for the the ticket to be fulfilled at a particular moment, and they are reaching into past months, weeks and hours to make it happen.

This scenario is more than a story. Camilla is a real person, and she showed me that it was possible. I could do it to for about 2 years. I lived in a foreign chaotic European City for a year and lost it.

Does this sound like bollocks or are there any out there that may concede the possibility of this being true?

daking

yes

no

neutone

It sounds far fetched, but then I've seen a ghost and a UFO. I just sound like a liar. He he.

Stug

Do you mean you lost the 'gift' of talking to a higher dimension or 'lost it' as in your marbles?

Personally I'd be more willing to concede that this might be possible if you were able to demonstrate some examples/pearls of wisdom given to you by your friend Camilla.

How did she learn this? And (more importantly) if you know this to be true, then why ask other people whether they believe it or not?

Take it away Sensei...

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and so ends the thought process for another day...

dr3n

Nice use of the word bollocks though..

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xepherys

I concede that such things are likely possible. There have been Shaman and Healers for as long as there have been humans. The Cajun healers that lay-on hands are also a good note of this. Remember, too, that if you are a believer (Christian/Jewish) that God's Word (tm) spoke of wizardry and magicks in the old testament. So, if you believe the word is infallible, than you must believe in magic as well. Prayer in the modern religious view is a simple point of that. Christian healing is a more diverse point.

Have any pointers on how to get in tune with such beings?

daking

Sometimes when i fast and get really hungry i contact the great god Domino of Pizza and some minutes latter a tasty meal arrives on a magic moving pedestal.

neutone

Lol, I'm not suggesting that I am Yoda, and my sense of direction has been known to be surprisingly bad for a man.

Camilla, is not a friend that I've had indepth spiritual debate with, and strangely this experience was spiritual only in as much as it was the vehicle for manipulating the universe. I assumed that with this ability was a certain responsibility to not abuse it, and I don't think I did. To describe it further I'd say that it has to do with faith.

Religious faith is a tough thing to relate to as in some ways doubt empowers it, faith is only powerful when it's surrounded in doubt. This, on the other hand was a very innocent and unglamorous step past faith and belief - to acceptance of fact. there is no effort or active belief, it is the absence of belief that turned it into absolute certainty (passive) that it is possible. I belief that it would be just as effective whether you were Jewish, Christian or Arab. It is based on the idea of your higher self being powerful, and beyond the reach of our 'time' restraints.

I can't remember how Camilla learnt this. I learnt it when Camilla suggested she prove it to me by willing that I'd be offered a foot massage within 2 weeks of that day. It happened. I'd never been offered a foot massage before that day or since. As it was so evidently true, I understood and was then able to do it too (for a while).
Asking whether you believe it or not simply reflects the fact that I accept that many won't and I'm curious to know who does and who doesn't.

zen_tom

I don't because I've had almost exactly the same experience. It's really very exciting when it happens, and there MAY be some psychological insights here, but the rest is most definately bollocks.

CSflim

I have a really strange feeling (a premonition, perhaps?) that there is going to be some tiny catch that will prevent Camilla from demonstrating this incredible ability under controlled conditions.

Shame that.

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Sinder

How does objects and people in our dimension function in a dimension with no time?

I mean, everything in our bodies, and most things on this planet have to grow, age, and function and alot of it requires the concept of time. While i can imagine that a dimension with no time exists i dont see how anything from our dimension could be transfered back in forth. If my heart beats once, does not time still pass? In my mind if time were to stop now, we would be frozen in our current state, either forever, or until it starts again.

Suave

Time is a very fickle dimension of "reality" anyways. The only reason we've conceived of the notion of time is that we do not have the ability to think outside of it. Can you imagine, for instance, living without sight and hearing? They, like time, form our view of our surroundings. Without the ability to see or hear, there are still most likely things to be seen and heard, but people require these senses to give them a feel for what is there. It's similar with time. Everything can happen without time, but we need time to tell us that things can happen. Or maybe I just need some sleep.

martinguerre

many things depend on your willingness to see them. i have to keep this close to mind for my own beliefs, too...but many beliefs that are based on coincidence:
-deuteronmistic theology
-gospel of wealth evangelics, esp. the TV varieties and "seed faith offerings"
-new age religion such as that espoused in The Celestine Prophecy

All of them share a really basic problem. What happens when the world stops being so coincidental. It turns in to a lottery, and the losers will always outnumber the winners.

ravenradiodj

I suppose it's possible, at least in theory, but further proof would be required for me to believe Camilla. It's always possible that, when you were away, she arranged for your foot massage to occur, through a co-conspirator. In my limited experience and knowledge of such things, most people who attain this oneness with higher powers and forces also experience an accompanying epiphany which points out that things like money, fame, and foot massages are ultimately meaningless and so they don't bother with accruing them. Which is why a genuine psychic doesn't bother trying to get the winning Lotto numbers - it's cheating, and they don't want that on their karmic debt pile. I am reminded of the story of the aspiring mystic who spent 25 years meditating, learning and concentrating his power, until he was finally able to acheive his goal of walking across a river. When he at last succeeded, he proudly told his master what he had done. His master simply smiled, and said, "that is most impressive, however, your countrymen are content with simply paying a few small pennies for passage on a boat."

Coppertop

I've seen too much weird shit in my life to immediately discredit anything. That being said, however, I've been around long enough to have a rather healthy level of skepticism about anything I read on the internet.

asaris

Indeed. It's possible, I'm hardly going to deny that, but one doesn't want to discount the role coincidence might play into all of this, either.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

JJRousseau

I'd like to think that there is something to this... but as for the book rights, Wayne Dyer beat you to it.

neutone

I've had friends who see angels and demons, and in truth I never believed them and still don't. I'm as skeptical about this kind of shit as the next person. In truth I've not spoken to Camilla in a few years so wouldn't know how 'in tune' she may still be. The idea of it (whether you believe or not) is inspiring and is credible to a point. That point is bundled with the assumption that we have a soul in some form of spiritual dimension.

If you were to ask the question, 'is God (generic) confined within our linear experience of time?' you'd probably come to the answer, 'probably not'. (There are biblical insinuations that he may be, the whole 'creating the universe in 7 days' thing)

Do you think you have a soul? Or a higher self? If you do, you may then conclude that that spiritual element of you exists in a dimension where time is flexible.

You may conclude further that your soul has access to the future and past, explaining why listening to one's 'little voice', or intuition, or prayer can be quite effective and generally results in valuable opportunities arising. Most people have enjoyed moments of clarity, a sense that things have gone right, inner knowledge etc. Coincidence surely exists and plays a role in our lives. Raven... has a good comment, suggesting that those who reach some form of enlightenment wouldn't bother with money or foot massages. That would suggest that that being connected with one's soul and being in control is some kind of reward or nirvana. I disagree, you can be imperfect and exploitative, you have just as much access. What you do with any form of power is recorded and comes back to you, call it 'kharma' or 'judgement'. If it is a reward of some kind then I don't know what I did to deserve it, and I must surely have blown it as it came and went.

As for 'book rights', I would be surprised if this concept had never been realised before now. It's an experience I had, and I imagine thousands of others have also had. I'm simply articulating it as I see it.

Stug

O.K neutone/non-Yoda,

I'm freely willing to accept that I have a soul. And due to my soul, a 'higher self' that is able to transcend physical constraints and mental assumptions such as the body, time, coincidence...

My 'higher self' has access to the past and the future. And through prayer/listening to my inner self, I am able to affect certain events in my life to come.

And with this new enlightment and ability, all you got was a foot massage?

Could you not explain the process further? Give some better examples of how this worked for you? And if you've now lost the ability, what do you attribute that to, have you now lost you soul?

I'm optimistic that you actually believe part (if not all) of what you're claiming...

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and so ends the thought process for another day...

ravenradiodj

neutone, read Aleister Crowley's "Book Four", you may find it interesting, and a used copy on eBay isn't terribly expensive.

neutone

Thanks Raven, I'll take a look for it. As funny as this may sound considering what I've been talking about but, Crowley is a bit dark and wierd for me in general. A friend of mine had Goetia (spelling) and it was pretty much necromancy 101.

Some more examples of how it worked.
I was unhappy with my job. I tooked out my car window at the sky and said, "universe, I need a new job.". My phone rang - i was headhunted from my job.
I was low on cash, needed to fix my car - I need some work (phone rings).
I lost my drivers license and needed one fast, I asked(told) the universe to fix it, one hour later I was called by a guy who worked for the traffic dept, who I'd met once 6 months before, I did him a favour and he did one for me.
I broke up with my girlfriend, decided I wanted to go overseas. Asked (told) universe, in 2 hours had enough work lined up to pay for 3 months holiday in Europe. I needed a place to stay in London, asked Universe to fix it. A girl I'd worked with for one month about half a year before (I hardly knew her) heard I was coming to London contacted me to offer me a room in their commune. It was a perfect fit. I met my business partner in this house. Had an amazing year and when I asked for something it didn't happen anymore. It sounds like the examples all had to do with cash but they weren't at all, they were about opportunity and making them possible. I'm very grateful that I had the opportunity to experience it, and naturally would enjoy it again, perhaps I simply lost faith or lost touch with my intuitive voice, not sure. I was given the opportunity to live in the UK, travel through Europe, be successful in my industry and work for industry leaders in other parts of Europe. I'm not suggesting there wasn't crap that happened to me too, bad shit, hard times were also had, but ultimately I was profoundly graced with opportunity.

zen_tom

There are many different ways to 'tune-in', and allow your subconscious to act without being suppressed in any way. Your subconscious is more acutely aware of what it wants, what other people want, and what is likely to happen than your higher brain.

However, it doesn't have a clue about social pleasantries, or an interest in anything except getting what it wants right now. If you allow it free reign, it can be a lot of fun, and you will be surprised what good judgment calls it is capable of making, it will however, get you into trouble.

I think that the age-old story of people selling their soul to the devil in return for something they desperately want is allegory for allowing your subconscious free reign. It gives you power that you may not have felt you had before. However, the nature of that power is uncontrollable, and often scares the mind into keeping a tight leash on it. Once this has happened, the ability to 'tune-in' is lost.

Witchcraft, Scientology and Aleister Crowley's Magik are techniques that bring forward the subconscious, but with mental leashes, controls if you like, of ritual and meditation. All that is actually happening is the subconscious is being brought forwards into prominence, but in a controlled and explained fashion. The controls, rituals and explanations are mostly mumbo-jumbo, but they perform the function of making the mind think it is in full control and so loosen the straps holding down the subconscious.

There are alternatives to these slightly dangerous and dubious practices; ones that wont fill your head with idiotic notions of magic, space-demons or extra-dimensional ghoulies waiting for petitions from earth. It's rubbish, nonsense, mumbo-jumbo, total and utter bollocks. There is not even the slightest chance that any of it is true. The alternatives are to learn how your mind works, perhaps practice meditation, and to simply listen to, or rather become more aware of, what your subconscious wants, what it knows, and what it understands in the world around you. But please don't think there's anything supernatural going on...this way lies pain, suffering, madness and confusion.

Just imagine what possible motives some extra-dimensional being might have to organise a foot massage JUST FOR YOU! It's laughable. Consider the possibility (if you reject the coincidental argument) that your subconscious was able to influence the other person into giving you a foot-massage. Doesn't that sound slightly more plausible? It's not as strange as it seems, animals are able to engage one another in sex with almost no verbal communication at all, isn't it likely that we might have inherited a basic level of non-verbal communication from our ancestors that is driven by our lower (subconscious) mind? Don't misunderstand me; I'm not talking about telepathy, but down to earth, simple body language.

tecoyah

I find it is likely a possibility, and wish I was centered enough to do it myself.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

neutone

Thanks Zen Tom, great post! Absolutely plausable advice and commentary. (sincerely). In my mind there was no rational explanation for the foot massage. I agree, as far a demonstrations of God's glorious power it is a little lame and doesn't sound plausible. In my mind it was a demonstration of how utterly human and accessible tapping in was/is. I don't know why I was so graced as to experience this, but I am trying to demystify it, there were no angels singing or doors slamming. Jesus was not there, it was aquaintances I barely knew and the foot massage was borderline inappropriate. If you want wonders then don't think hollywood, this stuff happens every day in beautiful ways. I would agree with Zen Tom that meditation and simple spiritual pursuits are far more practical to focus on. I am simply articulating a personal experience and a personal truth, you're free to take it with salt or to heart.

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ravenradiodj

Zen tom, I agree with 99% of your posts, but isn't presumptuous to say that there isn't the slightest chance that anything having to do with Magick is true? Doesn't that type of sweeping statements promote intolerance, and suggest the idea that you believe that you have some sort of insight into the universal order that the rest of us don't? I'm a Pagan, I believe wholeheartedly in my path. I think Christianity is filled with more mumbo-jumbo, nonsense, myth and superstition than my path. But I would never presume to say that I KNOW 100% that it is, or that I'm right and they're wrong, because I'm a flawed human being, as we all are, and it's an act of supreme arrogance to take that position. I would fight like hell to protect anyone's right to religious freedom, because ultimately, my path is right for me, yours is right for you, etc. We're all on the same journey, what route we take to get there isn't nearly so important as the extremists who slaughter each other over dogmatic trivia seem to think it is. And what are these "slightly dangerous and dubious" practices of which you speak? To me, there's nothing more dangerous than someone who is convinced he's got an inside line to the divine that noone else has. I'm not accusing you of anything, brother, as I said, I agree with you most of the time when you post, but you've made a very broad generalization here that strikes me as ill-worded at best.

________________________________________________________________________

Gimme That Old Time Religion - PAGAN FOR LIFE!

JJRousseau

100 years ago, the Archbishop of Canterbury, William Temple, summed it up this way:

"When I pray, coincidences happen"

zen_tom

ravenrdiodj, flattery will get you anything - and in this case, it's an apology.

Yes, I do have a tendency to go off on one sometimes, and use language that is perhaps more emotionally charged than rationally considered. No, no-one can know anything 100% of the time - especially not me. On this topic, I have to confess to having had (and to be honest, a continuing) deep personal interest. One that affected me very much, and one that provided me with some of the most exciting, euphoric and terrifying experiences of my life. However, having gone through it, I almost feel that I have a duty to keep people from going down this road. Of course, if I hadn't done it myself, I'd probably have a different outlook on life and see things very differently, so why should I encourage people to tread a different path than one I've trodden myself?
Is that a little hypocritical? Of course it is - thanks for pointing that out.

I still believe that the effects of Magik can be explained in terms of normal conscious and sub-conscious workings of the mind - and as amazing as many of those effects can be, I think that everybody could benefit from happier, healthier, more *gymnastic* minds if these things could be studied properly without the stigma of magic etc.

Crowley attempted this kind of study, and like I said before, came up with some great techniques that have real effects - however, (IMLTHO) he made the mistake of ascribing the causes of those effects to the actions of supernatural beings.

I just find it upsetting that these innate abilities have to be presented wrapped up in such a confusing, and to my mind damaging, packaging. The same knowledge could be described cleanly, rationally and openly - I fear it's like having an injection through a rusty needle, the medicine might do you good, but the delivery could be harmful.

ravenradiodj

Crowley was undoubtedly the greatest Magickian of his time, and the most misunderstood. Most people seem to know Crowley only throgh Ozzy Osbourne's song, which didn't even pronounce his name correctly. (I still love Ozzy, though) You say that these things which Crowley and similarly minded people attribute to supernatural and/or magickal forces can be rationally explained away as workings of the mind. How does this possibility, in and of itself, make them any less magickal?? I am currently studying shamanism. In the classic vision quest scenario, the aspirant goes alone to a mountaintop and fasts for a few days, until he gets his "vision". Medical science proved long ago that if you deprive anyone of food for a few days, they will eventually begin to hallucinate. OK, fine. Does that knowledge somehow prove that the "vision" acquired is less than genuine? How do we know that this isn't a method created by (insert name of God/Divine Force of your choice here) for communicating a sacred vision? I don't see the two as mutually exclusive, and Crowley didn't either. In fact, much of his writing is filled with derisive comments about fuzzy thinkers, superstitious nut cases, and pretenders who didn't understand what they were dealing with. In Crowley's case, if we take his word, he received his "vision" (The Book Of The Law) completely unsolicited, and from a completely different path than the one he was studying. He initially put it away, shunned it, fought against its message, then, finally, begrudgingly, began to find his truth in it. It's worthy of note, also, that he refused followers, pushed them away. Most teachers say, "Believe me!" Crowley said, "Don't believe me! Experiment, study, learn for yourself!" I don 't consider myself a Thelemite, but I respect what he wrote and accomplished, and though my path is different from his, I do think a more serious and thorough study of Crowley's work would be beneficial to mainstream religious thought. The commonplace and explainable is no less magickal than the Hidden Esoteric Celestial Mysteries Of The Ages, in my view. I hope I don't sound like I'm arguing with ya, brother, cuz I think we're ultimately on the same page here.

neutone

I met a Shaman once in England, he was quite amazing. He said he knew me from a previous life, we were woodcutters in Central Europe somewhere. It became interesting when we becan talking about spirit animal guides and he asked me what his was (flicking his eyes to his shoulder). I naturally said that I wasn't particularly psychic and he said,"squint yer eyes and flick em over my shoulder." I guess an eyelash got in the way and I said,"crow". He was elated and said it was a raven, blah blah. I said he was just saying it and so to prove i was right got me to ask somebody he knew on the phone what his guide was and it seemed I was indeed correct.
I'd say that this experience may not have had any spiritual activity at all. It could very easily be the exact same trick as ' think of a flower '. 99% think "rose". His animal had to me a small creature, as deer don't fit on the shoulder quite as snugly, and everyone already associates crows or ravens with Shamen and magick.

It got interesting when my friend asked him what her spirit animal guide was and he immediately said Owl. My friend was taken aback as that was exactly was she always knew it was.

Interesting experience.

Zen Tom, I just remembered something. In Goecia (Crowley's necromancy guide) I recall that the commands/prayers that you repeat to incarnate demons and angels were to god, the power that was used to incarnate the spirits was not Satanic. This would only confirm the idea that the power is accessible to anybody, and that it is clearly not a reward of any kind. It is a current that can be tapped.

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zen_tom

ravenradiodj - Crowley (from what I remember) did indeed express his findings very matter-of-factly, and went to great pains, as you say, to explain how rationally he had thought everything through. My problem with Crowley (and other similar) is their disbelief in the evidence of the world around them that points to all life and thought as being purely natural phenomena. Crowley's rationality is seductive, but gives way at the last minute to something very different:

"Official psychoanalysis is therefore committed to upholding a fraud... psychoanalysts have misinterpreted life, and announced the absurdity that every human being is essentially an anti-social, criminal, and insane animal" (Crowley).

The truth as I see it is that, to a great extent the psychoanalysts (and other scientists who are trying to de-mystify the mind) have come to a far less absurd, and more mutually supportable set of notions than Crowley ever did.

It is this rejection of the human-animal/human-machine that I have problems with.

However, Crowley (and other mystics) keep an ace up their sleeves, that those who learn and study their methods will be rewarded with seemingly magic(k)al powers. And here again I maintain that there are many things the human, animal mind is capable of doing, perfectly naturally, that we are normally unaware of. Please don't misunderstand me, I am NOT talking about telekinesis, or long-distance telepathy, or spoon-bending or stuff like that. What I am talking about is personal influence, deep understanding of other people, non-verbal interpersonal communication (apparent telepathy) and being able to tune your perceptions so acutely that you are able to predict events more keenly than normally thought reasonable. None of these things are magical, supernatural or weird in any way, however, they are things that people might ascribe to the workings of external forces.

neutone, I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Whether the prayers are directed to God, or a fallen angel is in my mind unimportant, the prayers are a technique that moulds the mind into a certain mode of operation (a mental stillness, or level of acute concentration perhaps), and it is this mode of operation that performs the 'mystical' act, which is later ascribed to having been the work of the summoned spirit. Yes it is a tappable channel, but I really don't see there being a need to invent spirits and a whole invisible world (as if quantum mechanics wasn't an invisible world? cough!) - let me rephrase that, an invisible world populated with conscious beings (lets QM off the hook) that can be contacted, summoned, petitioned for favors etc...

MSD

I believe in a higher self, another plane of existance, whatever you want to call it. I've felt it, I've seen it, I know that either its there or I'm just delusional. I'll accept that much of your story. Where it runs into a wall is the fact that your explanation requires some sort of God, higher power, whatever you want to call it, to pull strings for you, and I've seen a lot more evidence against that than I have seen for it.

neutone

I think I may have been misleading in the 'ticket' and 'guys upstairs' pulling the strings. To be more clear, it is your higher self.

A friend once made the following suggestion to me.

"You are not a human being having a spiritual experience, you are a spiritual being having a human experience."

To add further to the idea of being connected to a higher self that exists in a timeless dimension, the revelation to those of us who believe in past lives, is this - if there is no linear timeflow in the spiritual dimension then the term 'past' lives is no longer relevant. It should rather be 'simultaneous' lives. The revelation is that one's higher self or soul may participate in multiple lives (scattered over various human ages) simultaneously.

Hell, just talking about it makes things more confusing, I associate the spiritual evolution as a linear path, for without time/friction/opposition there cannot be any growth. 'Time in some form must exist.' This single line complicates and contradicts my entire position. Crap!

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tiberry

I'm in total agreement here. I think your description of what happens or how this works is TOTAL bullocks - but I do believe that anyone can truly achieve anything by sheer force of will. If you truly want something - you can have it. Its fear (in the form of doubt) that keeps this from happening - or more specifically, keeps people from realizing this truth.

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My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

neutone

Fair enough, I do think it would interesting to know how will translates into reality. Are you simply saying that if you want a break, you have the capacity to get it by working really hard in your job, making money and getting the holiday of your dreams? Or is there something more to the willing by 'sheer force' you describe?

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Zeraph

Your theory is probably wrong, but I do think such things exists. I literally believe in the saying that "anything is possible" doesn't mean anything is likely, just possible.

Many people have problems in thinking that we all have the same reality, it appears they overlap, but they are not the same.

If I kill myself mine ends or changes, but yours stays the same (except the fact I die in yours.) Duh, right? But most people don't get it.

Unless of course, youre all figments of me, and if I die, you do too... or maybe Im a figment of you.