christian/catholic? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Lebell · 03-10-2004, 09:10 PM

I would just as soon people didn't "damn" each other around here.

Lord knows I heard enough of it at the abortion clinic w/o dealing with it here...

Rekna · 03-11-2004, 03:39 AM

well no one should be damning anyone, especially a christian.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

Thagrastay · 03-11-2004, 06:24 AM

How have I damned myself? By explaining what the Bible says?
Please explain how this has bothered you. to the point that you believe it has damned me?
Damned is a pretty harsh word for one who doesn't believe in this stuff to begin with. So exactly where is it I am damned to? Please explain.

tecoyah · 03-11-2004, 07:04 AM

I must apologise for what appears to be a misinterpretation of my intent. I was damning no one, rather bringing to your attention the arrogant nature and tone of your religious statements, when read by one who is not of your faith. When put into the context of your statement that only the humble will be given a ticket to heaven, I simply found it hipocritical that you missed the lack of humility in your general tone and judgement of non christians as having no chance of redemtion.
It may benefit those of great faith in the Christ to attempt a deeper understanding of his life and works, rather than a book written by an endless string of flawed humans.
I love the man Jesus as an example to us all...and attempt to live my life by his standards, for someone else to tell me I am going to a hell they created in their own mind is insulting and degrading. Yet it is a continous part of many "christian" faiths.
Again, my intent was not to damn you, but to explain my discomfort at the attitude you portray.

Thagrastay · 03-11-2004, 12:28 PM

I don't understand. You claim to love the man Jesus as an example to us all and attempt to live your life by His standards.
Many claim to want to do that as well.
But you seem to disparage the part about a book written by an endless string of flawed humans- I can only assume you mean the Bible which is where you heard about Jesus to begin with,
and then the ... for someone else to tell mne I am going to a hell they created in their own mind is insulting and degrading. Yet it is a continuous part of many "christian" faiths.

In the words of C.S.Lewis- Jesus was only one of 3 things a Lunatic- along the order of someone who claimed to be a poached egg- a Liar, which would put Him along the same category as the Devil of hell or worse, or He was who He said He was. But He certainly couldn't be a nice teacher of cheery lessons and that was all. Because He claimed to be God.

Jesus preached of Hell and Damnation. Jesus Preached about who would be aloowed into the Kingdom of God and what it would take to be allowed in. Jesus Preached about Sin and Salvation. Jesus preached about Love and Death and forgiveness and the hereafter and how no one was worthy to cvome to God unless they came through Him.
Of course this is insulting stuff. Of course it stings and burns. It is supposed to. Jesus didn't come to preach things that would appeal to us and tickle our ears. He came with a two by four to get our attention because our very souls are at stake and He wants us to know He means business. He is not concerned with whether or not he hurts our feelings as long as He brings us home with Him.
It's the Enemy that wants us concerned with how we feel.

Lebell · 03-11-2004, 02:43 PM

Thagrastay,

Do a google on "The Jesus Seminar" and look up what they have to say on the Gospel of John, which is the source of much of what you speak about.

(BTW, I love C.S. Lewis

)

tecoyah · 03-11-2004, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thagrastay
I don't understand. You claim to love the man Jesus as an example to us all and attempt to live your life by His standards.
Many claim to want to do that as well.
But you seem to disparage the part about a book written by an endless string of flawed humans- I can only assume you mean the Bible which is where you heard about Jesus to begin with,
and then the ... for someone else to tell mne I am going to a hell they created in their own mind is insulting and degrading. Yet it is a continuous part of many "christian" faiths.

In the words of C.S.Lewis- Jesus was only one of 3 things a Lunatic- along the order of someone who claimed to be a poached egg- a Liar, which would put Him along the same category as the Devil of hell or worse, or He was who He said He was. But He certainly couldn't be a nice teacher of cheery lessons and that was all. Because He claimed to be God.

Jesus preached of Hell and Damnation. Jesus Preached about who would be aloowed into the Kingdom of God and what it would take to be allowed in. Jesus Preached about Sin and Salvation. Jesus preached about Love and Death and forgiveness and the hereafter and how no one was worthy to cvome to God unless they came through Him.
Of course this is insulting stuff. Of course it stings and burns. It is supposed to. Jesus didn't come to preach things that would appeal to us and tickle our ears. He came with a two by four to get our attention because our very souls are at stake and He wants us to know He means business. He is not concerned with whether or not he hurts our feelings as long as He brings us home with Him.
It's the Enemy that wants us concerned with how we feel.

Yes, I agree....you don't understand. Please forgive the following statement as you will likely take it as an attack, it is not.

It is because of your adamant belief in the bible, rather than the christ, that many are turned from the christian path you attempt to proclaim. Try acting a little more open minded towards others, and perhaps they will actually listen to you.
Having strong faith is a wonderful thing, and I commend you for your strength in this regard, I cannot however, commend your lack of compassion for the minds of others.

If this heaven is peopled with such closed minds, I would be very uncomfortable there.

Thagrastay · 03-11-2004, 05:17 PM

I know Jesus because of the Bible. I have not received a mystic vision of Him apart from it. In fact, the Bible warns specifically against this.
Jesus is My God. He is my salvation He is my Lord my Rock, My Love, the One upon whom I lean and to Whom I turn in my trouble.
I did not invent the Bible and can tell you nothing that isn't in there, nor would I. Jesus spoke from the Bible. Jesus quoted it constantly, reminding everyone to whom He spoke that the words He said were the words He heard His Father speak and He was just repeating what His father Had already said.
I do not tell you the Gospel according to Thagrastay, because that would get you nothing. And If there is ever such a book I urge you to burn it, quickly.
Tecoyah, If I had no compassion, I would not even bother to respond. I would say"Let them go their own way- I have MY salvation and have been forgiven- Let them get their own!" But Jesus says "To whom much is given, much is required". And I know how much I have been forgiven of. How then can I turn my back and say to anyone "Go get your own"? This Salvation didn't come from me! It didn't come from anything I have ever done or said! This salvation came as a free gift of the One and Only God by way of His Son, to Me and anyone, like me, who is willing to humble themselves and ask to be forgiven!
I am but one among countless many who have come before and about to come that will seek the forgiveness ans mercy of the Living God and receive it in the finished work of His Son.

I am not certain what you mean by my acting more open minded toward others means.
Tecoyah, I know what I know. If that offends you, I apologize. I am not the type to beat around the bush. I believe that the highest honor one person can pay another is just tell them the truth, and let the other do with it what they want.
If I see a person about to step out in front of a bus, I will shout a warning, not clear my throat and hope they hear me. Idf this is indiscreet, then so be it. I Love enough to offend. I learned that from Jesus. I also love enough to care and to share and help and to listen and to learn and to laugh and to hold and be . I also learned that from Jesus. And from my friends.
What may I learn from you?

Rekna · 03-12-2004, 06:43 PM

Do you claim that it is impossible for someone who doesn't accept Jesus as there savior during their mortal life to make it into heaven?

Do you realize that claiming impossibilities is unbiblical?

It says in the bible many times that to God nothing is impossible. Therefore do not say you know that other people can't go to heaven if they don't accept Jesus during their mortal life. I still ask where in the bible does it say the age the people are accountable for their actions?

You speak as if you know exactly what Gods plans and intentions are. As if you know exactly who will be saved and who will not be saved. The only thing I am sure of is that I cannot know those things to which you seem to know.

I can be familiar with the teachings of the bible and have faith in their sayings. But does this mean that the bible is 100% correct in everything within it, does it mean I should take every verse of the bible litteraly? Have you read the original untranslated bible? Do you know hebrew and aramaic? Considering the original chapters of the bible do not exist I doubt this. Translations are increadibly vague many words have ambigious meanings and they can loose meaning in translation. Or even be translated just plane wrong.

Also there has been many many years where people have had opportunity to change the bible to fit their needs. Something like this could not happen today but yet it could have in the past. Parts of the bible maybe shouldn't even be in the bible.

In fact the letters written by paul were not written with the intention to be put in the bible but instead as letters to a church on how it should conduct itself. Some 50 years after Paul died they were added to the bible.

Oddly enough one of these letters contains one of the most contriversial bible versus. Paul mentions that a woman should be subordinate to her husband and is not allowed to conduct worship for it was her who was first decieved. But yet everything that Paul and Jesus taught us before this verse was equality of men and women. Yet somehow Paul does an about face and throws this out of nowhere. There have been many studies on this verse and many theologins believe this verse was not even written by Paul but instead was added after his death to help keep women oppressed.

The point is you cannot take everything in the bible litterally or as concrete fact because first through God all things are possible, if he wants something to happen it will happen. Second the bible can easily contain transcribing errors. Third the bible could have been changed intentionally by people in power (if you don't think this is possible look at man kinds track record, we were able to crucify our savior on a cross, do you think it is impossible for man to add a few words to a book?)

That is why I believe you shouldn't get caught up in the details of individual versus of the bible, instead look at the big picture of what Jesus taught us. Love everyone as yourself. For love is what Jesus stood for. This means don't judge other people because you disagree with them. Don't look at them and say your going to hell, because you are not God, you cannot know that. Instead love them for who they are. Feel free to ask them about Jesus but don't force it on them. Acceptance of Jesus is something that has to come on your own. Forcing your beliefs on others will never work. God gave mankind freewill for a reason.

analog · 03-13-2004, 12:46 AM

I have followed much of SecretMethod70's writings, threads, musings, etc., and as a Catholic, I must say I agree whole-heartedly with most everything he has had to say. I say most because i can't possibly have read it all.

1. What makes you- or anyone- think that you have the ability to judge for yourself whether someone is going to heaven or not? Therefore, asserting that someone MUST do x, y, and z, in order to get in to heaven, is foolish. We are human, we make mistakes, and we cannot know all.

2. It's appalling that in all this talk, it seems that everyone forgets the principle teachings of Jesus, and God through others- God loves everyone. Not SOME people, not "those who love jesus", not "only those who believe in Him", but EVERYONE. How can you say that a truly good person of any religion, belief system, or otherwise will go to hell, just because they believed in a different God? That's ludicrous.

I love God. Jesus is my savior. I pray to God on my own terms, whenever I want to- and I don't have to be in a church to do it. He hears me everywhere.

tecoyah · 03-13-2004, 03:18 AM

Rekna@Analog, I must say, were it not for christians like you I would likely never visit this board.I find the christ and his followers fascinating and think christianity is a wonderful religion in general. It is because of the people who "follow" his teachings, and don't simply spew biblical verse that intellectuals are accepting of this faith, and often converted.
You are a credit to your faith, and I am sure Jesus smiles down upon you, as he does on us all to some extent.
As a matter of clarification, I do accept Jesus into my spitituality, But not as the physical child of a creation entity.I try to follow his life lessons though.

Thagrastay · 03-13-2004, 04:51 PM

Please bear in mind that I have not told anyone that they are going to hell.
The question was whether Jesus is the only way into Heaven.
According to the Bible, which Rekna says is not reliable amd shouldn't be trusted, the answer is Yes.
But further caveats I have heard in this thread are that God can always change His mind, and so, Jesus, having gone through that whole terrible scouring, beating and crucifixion and having bothered to resurrect Himself, did this conceivably for nothing, since:
A. There are other ways into Heaven
B. There are other ways into Heaven
C. There are other ways into Heaven

We could find the real reason accept the Bible may have either been changed or can't be believed, or people who quote it are harsh and rigid and unloving and not tolerant. But who knows. We could just ask God, but He is also capable of capriciously changing His mind, too.
Not a whole lot of hope, there.
And then there's that paul and the women thing.
That's enough to piss any feminist off for sure and cast doubt on the whole Bible!
I'll tell you Rekna, whatever you do, don't read Peter! Or Ephesians! or Corinthians!
And good luck to any of you who want to be called Christians but deny waht Jesus actually taught. Because as uncomforatble, or as politically incorrect as it may be, all of christianity comes from that book you guys seem to mistrust so much that a whole bunch of people have been trying for two thousand years to discredit and have yet to do.
If you want to learn more about it, but I doubt you do- you seem to comfortable in your disenfranchisement- read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh MacDowell". But be careful- it may change your worldview!

tecoyah · 03-13-2004, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thagrastay
Please bear in mind that I have not told anyone that they are going to hell.
The question was whether Jesus is the only way into Heaven.
According to the Bible, which Rekna says is not reliable amd shouldn't be trusted, the answer is Yes.
But further caveats I have heard in this thread are that God can always change His mind, and so, Jesus, having gone through that whole terrible scouring, beating and crucifixion and having bothered to resurrect Himself, did this conceivably for nothing, since:
A. There are other ways into Heaven
B. There are other ways into Heaven
C. There are other ways into Heaven

We could find the real reason accept the Bible may have either been changed or can't be believed, or people who quote it are harsh and rigid and unloving and not tolerant. But who knows. We could just ask God, but He is also capable of capriciously changing His mind, too.
Not a whole lot of hope, there.
And then there's that paul and the women thing.
That's enough to piss any feminist off for sure and cast doubt on the whole Bible!
I'll tell you Rekna, whatever you do, don't read Peter! Or Ephesians! or Corinthians!
And good luck to any of you who want to be called Christians but deny waht Jesus actually taught. Because as uncomforatble, or as politically incorrect as it may be, all of christianity comes from that book you guys seem to mistrust so much that a whole bunch of people have been trying for two thousand years to discredit and have yet to do.
If you want to learn more about it, but I doubt you do- you seem to comfortable in your disenfranchisement- read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh MacDowell". But be careful- it may change your worldview!

Nevermind.....this is totally pointless, and you are getting upset.
End of thread for me.

Rekna · 03-13-2004, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thagrastay
Please bear in mind that I have not told anyone that they are going to hell.
The question was whether Jesus is the only way into Heaven.
According to the Bible, which Rekna says is not reliable amd shouldn't be trusted, the answer is Yes.
But further caveats I have heard in this thread are that God can always change His mind, and so, Jesus, having gone through that whole terrible scouring, beating and crucifixion and having bothered to resurrect Himself, did this conceivably for nothing, since:
A. There are other ways into Heaven
B. There are other ways into Heaven
C. There are other ways into Heaven

We could find the real reason accept the Bible may have either been changed or can't be believed, or people who quote it are harsh and rigid and unloving and not tolerant. But who knows. We could just ask God, but He is also capable of capriciously changing His mind, too.
Not a whole lot of hope, there.
And then there's that paul and the women thing.
That's enough to piss any feminist off for sure and cast doubt on the whole Bible!
I'll tell you Rekna, whatever you do, don't read Peter! Or Ephesians! or Corinthians!
And good luck to any of you who want to be called Christians but deny waht Jesus actually taught. Because as uncomforatble, or as politically incorrect as it may be, all of christianity comes from that book you guys seem to mistrust so much that a whole bunch of people have been trying for two thousand years to discredit and have yet to do.
If you want to learn more about it, but I doubt you do- you seem to comfortable in your disenfranchisement- read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh MacDowell". But be careful- it may change your worldview!

You completely missed my point about the potential for mistakes in the bible. My point was not to distrust the entire bible, but instead to look at the big picture and not individual versus. I feel sorry for you if you feel the bible is inerrant. It wasn't very long ago the Columbus was ridiculed and called unchristain for proposing the world was round, even more recent was when someone (I don't remember who) proposed the world was not the center of the Universe. As people progress through the ages we are learning more and more. If tomorrow people were to prove that evolution occured or that their was life on another planet what would happen? The same thing that has happend every time in the past. The bible gets reinterpreted, because it was interpreted incorrectly originally. Mankind is not infallable, they make mistakes. Mankind cannot know everything so we have to settle for knowing we can't know everything. But it isn't about knowing things, it is about having faith that you don't need to know, instead you need only to love.

God doesn't need to come down and knock on my door to tell me he exists. I don't need some sort of miricle. I see Gods work every day. I have faith in him and I know that whatever we find out about our past, present, and future will not alter my beliefs in God because through God NOTHING is impossible. He does not need to explain his plan to me for I only need to know I love him.

If you think that this is blasfamous then I'm sorry. My belifes come from what I have observed in the world, through the bible, through the teachings of many different churches, and through my heart.

Jesus taught love and compassion for everyone, not just those that followed him. Even while he died on the cross he prayed for the FORGIVENESS of his ENEMIES. Jesus died for the forgiveness of ALL sin. So that ALL sin COULD be forgiven (which is differen't then will be).

I love Jesus and I pray to him daily for all he has done for me and the whole world. I thank him for the tollerance that he has taught, something I wish you would learn. Jesus was not an elitest and you shouldn't be either.

Lebell · 03-14-2004, 02:49 AM

Thagrastay,

You are welcome to believe I am misguided, and I am welcome to believe you are misguided.

Perhaps we should just leave it at that.

macro · 03-15-2004, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thagrastay
Jesus is the WAY. not the Christians.

So where does this leave the Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and any other religion you care to name? Just because he's your saviour doesn't make him mine. It doesn't make you right, doesn't make you wrong.

Maybe you meant "Jesus is my way?"

asaris · 03-15-2004, 07:41 AM

No, I'm pretty sure he meant THE way. Most Christians (I'm tempted to say all, but don't want to start that discussion again) believe that it is only through Jesus Christ that we are saved. Many, including myself, do not believe that explicit belief in Christ is necessarily essential -- my own point of view is that we know those who believe in Christ in this life will be saved. We don't know what happens to those who haven't heard, who have heard but rejected through no fault of their own, or if there's a chance given after death. But even though I'm not sure Thagrastay would even go as far as I do, the point is that there is only one means of salvation. Or did you expect God to be tortured to death more than once to save a bunch of rebel scum?

Thagrastay · 03-15-2004, 08:42 AM

This is a thread about Catholicism and Christianity, is that not so?
How then does this thread then extend to the salvation aspect of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, Atheists or anyone else?
The Thread is about Catholic and Christian Differences!
Look, I don't go to a Bar Mitzvah expecting to pick a fight with the Rabbi about the way he conducts his Synagogue. Why do you come to Catholic/Christain thread looking to start a conflict over the central tenet of both of these faiths? Despite what SecretMethod70 might espouse, He is not the Catholic Church and does not speak for it. in fact, his remarks that God could be either a He a She or an IT pretty much disqualify him form any serious contention in the Catholic or Christian field of serious belief. I would suggest that SecretMethod70 go back and study more and ask some serious questions since there is obviously some doubt and shaky faith there. But I digress.
The point is, According to historical, traditional CHRISTIAN teaching, and the accepted words of Jesus the Messiah Himself, there is only ONE way to get to heaven and that is through Jesus.
Anyone who is a Christian, and by that I mean a person who has made a conscious decision to follow the Messiah as their Lord, has had to search their own hearts and souls and research that aspect of the faith and face that and make that seemingly painful personal sacrifice and Choose to accept that idea and understands that to be the case- Jesus is THE way to heaven.
Where that leaves anyone else is not part of this thread.
Although, to be fair, I will say this- it leaves everyone else exactly where it left me for thirty years when I was doing my own thing- out in the cold. That may seem like a harsh thing to say, but it is the reality of the situation.
Many, many people tried to talk to me about Messiah over the course of my life and I had no interest. I dismissed them as nuts, kooks, Bible Thumpers, crazies, zealots and pains in the neck. I had my own way of seeing things and my own ideas and beliefs and that was what I wanted. I was searching for what I wanted to see and was fine doing that. I certainly didn't need any Jesus.
Until I did.
I'm grateful He was willing to take me in when I needed Him after all the times I pushed Him away. But even after all my rejection and disdain and dismissal and such, He was still there to receive me, and forgive me and save me and make me clean and make me His own.
This is available to everyone that is willing to come to Him as well. So, where does that leave the Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus and Wiccans and Pagans and everyone else? Exactly where they choose to be.
Jesus says those who are not saved will not inherit the Kingdom. That's an accepted Christian teaching. That is why Christians are so grateful to have been rescued By Jesus from Hell and so eager to tell everyone else that they too can be rescued as well. But only Jesus Saves. And the choice is a personal one.
I figure that all I can do is tell a person. That is as far as I can take it. The rest is up to them.
I pray that it takes only one time, but I remember how many people over how many years it took to get the message through to me that I could really be happy, have peace and feel love. I wish that for everyone.
Anyway, please don't get upset that in a Christian/Catholic thread we discuss Christian/Catholic things.

SecretMethod70 · 03-15-2004, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thagrastay
Despite what SecretMethod70 might espouse, He is not the Catholic Church and does not speak for it. in fact, his remarks that God could be either a He a She or an IT pretty much disqualify him form any serious contention in the Catholic or Christian field of serious belief. I would suggest that SecretMethod70 go back and study more and ask some serious questions since there is obviously some doubt and shaky faith there. But I digress.

Reference to God in terms of He/She/It is only meant to convey the fact that He is none of those and none are accurate. My point being only to express the fact that even the fact that we refer to Him as "Him" is technically incorrect. Not to say that I think God is a female or anything like that.

And, so you don't think I'm pulling things out of my ass as apparently you do, Cathechism of the Catholic Church:

Quote:

42: God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, image-bound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God—"the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable"—with our human representations. Our human words always fall short of the mystery of God.

239: By calling God "Father," the LANGUAGE of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God's parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood,62 which emphasizes God's immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard no one is father as God is Father.

370: In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective "perfections" of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband.

Furthermore, regarding other faiths, lest you think that anything I'm saying is not in conjunction with Catholic teaching, Vatican II specifically states that while the Catholic faith contains the fullness of God's truth, other faiths do contain real truth. I can't find the specific part, however, I did come across this priest's response to a question that must have related to this in some way:

http://www.faithfirst.com/html/famil...messageID=2919

Quote:

The full reality of divine truth so far exceeds our human ability to grasp that what we arrive at in our human judgements is always partial, always a bit flawed, never fully grasped. That is why many different viewpoints can capture a piece of the truth. We Catholics do not believe that we have exclusive possession of the truth, as if no one else had any. Rather, while we hold to our beleif that revelation in the Scripture and Tradtion have given us a fullness of truth unrivaled by others - still we admit that others often do capture aspects of the truth that we may not have attended to adequately. The limitations of human language insure that no proposition is able to exhautively capture the truth. Thus, a religious figure such as Mohammed was surely capturing real truth in some of his teachings, even if we would disagree with many & various points he makes.

Lastly, while I never claimed to "speak for the Catholic Church," I find it particularly insulting that you would suggest that I don't know what the Catholic Church teaches considering I've gone to Catholic-run schools for all but 4 years of my life and am presently taking classes on Catholic theology at one of those Catholic-run institutions. I think the sources of my information are pretty trustworthy

Yes, some things I mention are part of relatively recent movements in Catholic theology as the church continues to change as it always has - as the living being it is - but they are in no way egregiously against Catholic teaching. Remember, Thomas Aquinas, who ultimately became one of the church fathers, was originally condemned 3 times by Catholicism for his views on Catholic theology. That's not to say that the few views I hold which aren't specifically part of Catholicism (almost none of which I've even mentioned here...to the point where I wonder if there's even a point in going on about this) are my own. I don't claim to be the source of any of my views and I don't claim to be some church expert. But my views do come from highly respected Catholic priests and writers, so it's rediculous again to say that I don't know what I'm talking about with respect to Catholic teaching. I think that if Thomas Merton - a Catholic monk whom I have begun to read and respect the writings of - was so far off with what he has said, he would not have been as highly respected as he was during the time of his life and there would not be a mild push for his Sainthood. Or, for that matter, I think that if Father Andrew Greeley's writings are so far off-base with Catholic teaching, he would no longer hold the title "father" as he does. So, please, don't accuse me of essentially not knowing what I'm talking about with respect to Catholicism. And I apologize in advance for my harsh tone but, frankly, I'm highly insulted.

Rekna · 03-15-2004, 11:16 AM

This is the problem with denominations in general. They all disagree on a few points and each think that their views are 100% correct. My view is this, i cannot be 100% correct and neither can any of those denominations. So instead take the parts that all of them agree on and you have a good start to how to worship God.

asaris · 03-15-2004, 11:21 AM

1. Aquinas was never condemned by the Catholic Church -- it was some local organization, perhaps a council at Paris, maybe the University of Paris, maybe the bishop of Paris, I can't remember which. Just a minor point, for the sake of nitpicking.

2. While it is true that all Christians hold that God is neither male nor female, and most Christian hold that he is neither masculine or feminine, rather he transcends all of these categories, nevertheless a couple points need to be made. First of all, the merely linguistic one that he/she/it is awfully cumbersome, and merely using 'it' would, according to the conventions of the english language, imply that God was not a person. Secondly, and I'm not sure what the Catholic church teaches, my denomination teaches that it is most right and fitting to refer to God as masculine, since this is how scripture universally refers to scripture -- in the passages where feminine imagery appears, it is always used in a simile, never a metaphor, and whenever he is referred to directly, it is as masculine. One example -- when Christ teaches us how to pray, it is to "Our Father".

3. While the Catholic church (and any church with any merit, for that matter) holds that there are some truths in other religions, this does not refute the fact that the Catholic church teaches that there is no salvation outside of Christ. That is, the central truth of salvation, that the path to salvation is through Christ, is one only found in the Christian faith. So while we can find wisdom in other faiths, wisdom that may have been disregarded to some extent by the Christian tradition, there is only salvation through Christ.

tecoyah · 03-15-2004, 12:33 PM

One final point, I am undoubtedly going to Hell according to some posters here, as I hold a different interpretation than you do. But, I must say it will be quite refreshing.....to be free of this judgement of ignorance.
If the christ truly wanted you to condemn me for my understanding of his life, Why would you follow such a cruel and closed minded individual?
-------------bye---------------------------------------------------------------

Lebell · 03-15-2004, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecretMethod70
Lastly, while I never claimed to "speak for the Catholic Church," I find it particularly insulting that you would suggest that I don't know what the Catholic Church teaches considering I've gone to Catholic-run schools for all but 4 years of my life and am presently taking classes on Catholic theology at one of those Catholic-run institutions. I think the sources of my information are pretty trustworthy

I wouldn't take it personally.

My own experience is that individuals who feel the need to "defend" their faith this strongly are generally the ones with weak faith.

Just remember, Jesus didn't need "defending" on the cross. The lesson being that Truth will always ring out.

Ustwo · 03-15-2004, 01:34 PM

I was born/baptized Catholic. I have sense abandoned it, but Catholic schooling made sure I understood it.

My wife is some Protestants sect, Church of Christ or something like that.

Is it wrong of me to refer to Catholicism as the 'true' church to her?

This whole debate reminds me of the "Life of Brian". I'll let you guess the scene.

SecretMethod70 · 03-15-2004, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rekna
This is the problem with denominations in general. They all disagree on a few points and each think that their views are 100% correct. My view is this, i cannot be 100% correct and neither can any of those denominations. So instead take the parts that all of them agree on and you have a good start to how to worship God.

Yes, for the most part I agree. It must be said though, for the sake of my own clarity, that I'm not trying to tell anyone they're wrong in their belief but only to point out that perhaps they are wrong in their understanding of another belief.

Quote:

Originally posted by asaris
1. Aquinas was never condemned by the Catholic Church -- it was some local organization, perhaps a council at Paris, maybe the University of Paris, maybe the bishop of Paris, I can't remember which. Just a minor point, for the sake of nitpicking.

No problem, I guess I wasn't clear before. I didn't mean that he was condemned by the Catholic Church - how could he have been when nothing he said was heretical but merely a different way looking at things - but he was condemned by Catholics. Ultimately, my point being that Catholic interpretation of theology is constantly being reassessed and just because something is not expressly accepted does not mean it is incorrect. In Catholic theology, the truth changes in order to remain the same. There is a recognition that all things exists not only in space but also time and that there is a historical context to everything. Vatican II was a major force in beginning this change in thought.

Quote:

2. While it is true that all Christians hold that God is neither male nor female, and most Christian hold that he is neither masculine or feminine, rather he transcends all of these categories, nevertheless a couple points need to be made. First of all, the merely linguistic one that he/she/it is awfully cumbersome, and merely using 'it' would, according to the conventions of the english language, imply that God was not a person. Secondly, and I'm not sure what the Catholic church teaches, my denomination teaches that it is most right and fitting to refer to God as masculine, since this is how scripture universally refers to scripture -- in the passages where feminine imagery appears, it is always used in a simile, never a metaphor, and whenever he is referred to directly, it is as masculine. One example -- when Christ teaches us how to pray, it is to "Our Father".

*Sigh* This is really being given far more attention than it deserves. I have referred to God in a way beyond "He" only, perhaps, twice on this forum. And the only reason I did so when I did was because I happened to be talking about at that very moment human conceptions as a barrier to understanding God. I don't disagree with anything you have said here and I only merely meant to point out the need to detach oneself from the conventional meanings of words such as He in relation to God, for even though we refer to Him as "He," he is NOT a "He" and CANNOT be a "He" no more than He can be a "She" or an "It." My very point was the inadequacy of ANY of these words to describe God because He is beyond all of them, not to say that we should start referring to Him as "Her" or "It."

Quote:

3. While the Catholic church (and any church with any merit, for that matter) holds that there are some truths in other religions, this does not refute the fact that the Catholic church teaches that there is no salvation outside of Christ. That is, the central truth of salvation, that the path to salvation is through Christ, is one only found in the Christian faith. So while we can find wisdom in other faiths, wisdom that may have been disregarded to some extent by the Christian tradition, there is only salvation through Christ.

Salvation is through Christ for the Catholic Church, yes, but that is not to say that the Catholic Church holds to be true that one must be expressly Christian. For the sake of quoting a few quick sources:

http://oldforum.catholic.org/discuss...tml?1077442358

Quote:

Fr. Robert Auman:

Catechism, n. 847: “Those who,
through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church,
but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try
in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their
conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.” For the answer to your
second question concerning the Biblical quotation you post, see Hebrews 11,
5-6. The words “taken up” and “come to God” in that passage mean “going to
heaven”. The passage lays down two conditions for salvation: believing that God
exists and that he rewards those who seek him by trying to do what is right. Those
conditions can be known through human reason alone, without the aid of God’s
teaching.

If you want Bible references regarding the first condition see: John 1: 18;
Rom 1:20; Col 1:15; 1 Tim 1:17; 6: 16; John 20:29; 2 Cor 5:17. For second
condition see: Mt 5:12;
6:4, 6:18, 10:41, 16:27, 20:1-16, 25:31-46; Lk 6:35; 1 Cor 3:8, 14; 2 Cor
5:10; Eph 6:8; 2 Time 4: 8, 14; 1 Peter 1: 17.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Salv...the_Church.asp

This one is too long to quote, but the general idea is that anyone who realizes that the Catholic Church is the True Church and rejects it commits a grave injustice to themself and cannot be united with God. I think that makes total sense obviously as it's basically like someone who knows 2+2=4 and still says it equals 5. So, the question that must be asked of this is how does one know who is AWARE of the Catholic church's role and who is not. My point being that common sense and sociological knowledge dictates that most people, having been raised some other religion their entire life, do not specifically REJECT Catholicism but are turned off to it by no fault of their own through the circumstances of their upbringing. These people, because of the real truth present in most world religions, are still capable of oneness with God because there is something of the Holy Spirit in all of us guiding us to do what is conscienable. Someone who rejects this inclination is obviously still seperating themself from God, Christian or otherwise. So, perhaps I wasn't clear with things I said earlier, but I never meant to say and have never believed as a Catholic that a non-Christian is "just as well off" as a Christian or Catholic but that, due the the circumstances of one's upbringing many people do not come to realize the truth of the Church and that God does not let this prevent them from unity with Him. That's precisely why there is the Holy Spirit in all of us so that even those who are raised muslim or as theistic Buddhists or as any variety of other religions can still feel in themself a draw towards the Good even if they do not have a full exposure to the truth. That's not to say that one should not work to introduce them to Christianity, but only that their acceptance of Christianity is only a matter of "life or death" in the eternal sense when they are aware of Christianity's supremacy and choose to reject it out of pride. I don't think that describes the majority of people.

Lastly, scroll down to the bottom if you follow the link, http://www.stmonica.cc/papers/cathheav.htm

Quote:

Question: Do you maintain that one is obliged to join your infallible, one, holy, catholic, apostolic, and indefectible Church, if he wishes to be saved?

Answer: If a man realizes that the Catholic Church is the true Church, he must join it if he wishes to save his soul. That is the normal law. But if he does not realize this obligation, is true to his conscience, even though it be erroneous, and dies repenting of any violations of his conscience, he will get to Heaven. In such a case, it would not have been his fault that he was a non-Catholic and God makes every allowance for good faith.

Question: So I deserve Hell because I am a non-Catholic?

Answer: If you say, "I know quite well that the Catholic Church is the true Church, which God obliges me to join, but what of that!" then you deserve Hell. That would be a serious sin. But apparently you do not realize this obligation. Your position is based on insufficient or false information, and this leads you to a wrong if sincere conclusion.

Source: Frs Rumble and Carty, Radio Replies, First Volume, TAN Books, 1979 (original copyright 1938)

My point in all this is not to say that I am right and someone else is wrong, but only to point out that, although apparently some people find this hard to believe, Catholics do not believe that non-Catholics or non-Christians for that matter go to Hell by default. Perhaps Thagrastay is right...perhaps they do...I can't know. Believe what you will - that's a right which we all have - but to say that you KNOW one thing to be true and another to be false goes beyond what we are capable as humans. I don't know what happened to Ghandi for instance, but I can infer it based on the clues of Jesus teaching and the guidance of the church in interpretation of that teaching. But, to KNOW, only God is capable of that and, really, it's none of my business anyway.

Thagrastay · 03-15-2004, 03:49 PM

A Stand! You've taken a stand! Congratulations!

Thagrastay · 03-15-2004, 04:02 PM

tecoyah-
Jesus does not want us to condemn you at all. We are not capable of that. Just as we a re not capable of sitting in Judgement of any other human being. Only He who holds the keys to Death and Hades is capable of that, and That is Jesus Himself.
If anyone is to be condemned and judged, it is because they have decided to be. Salvation is available to any who are willing to receive it. If you choose not to have it, then it is entirely your choice.
I fervently hope you choose life.
I have found that people don't choose Jesus because they haven't gotten to know Him yet. And the only way to get to know Him, is to ask Him about Himself. It can't hurt. Peopole do stranger things.
Be well, Be safe, Be at peace

asaris · 03-15-2004, 04:44 PM

Regarding God's gender: Just to be clear, I didn't think it was a major point of your post, but I was just nitpicking again.

Not to belabor the point, but I don't think the Catholic church is as charitable as you make them out to be. If they were, what would be the point of saying that salvation is only through the Catholic Church, even if one doesn't need to explicitly be a member of the church? On your reading, all one needs to do is seek God honestly and try to follow his will, since it's doubtful there are many people who believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church and do not belong to it.

My own belief, which I don't think is too far from what the Catholic Church believes though with different emphases, is the following. We know that all those who hear the good news of Jesus Christ and respond to it by accepting him as Lord are saved. We know that all those who hear the good news and reject it are damned. What we don't know are the two following things:

1. What happens to those who don't hear the good news. God is completely just, so would not be acting wrongly in condemning them to hell. God is not required to save anyone. But God is also completely merciful, so it would not be beyond comprehension if, in the same way he takes my feeble strivings towards Christ and attributes them to me as righteousness, to take those strivings of those who haven't heard the good news and attribute them as righteousness.

2. We don't know what 'hear' means in this context. In the literal sense, of course, it refers to those who died before the coming of Christ, or before they were able to hear the good news. But it could easily also refer to those who, for various reasons, weren't in a position to hear the gospel in a metaphorical sense, people who were driven away from the church by the evildoing of persons who claim to be members of the Church, for example. We don't know.

In the end, the safest thing is to say that we know how one may be saved. We don't know what happens to anyone else, and we are told not to judge. I take the words of Paul very seriously: "I do not even judge myself." I don't know whether or not I will be saved -- how can I judge anyone else?

Again, I'm not sure how close this is to the Catholic position. I'll ask my theologian roommate next time I see him, since I trust his knowledge about this sort of thing.

SecretMethod70 · 03-15-2004, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by asaris
Not to belabor the point, but I don't think the Catholic church is as charitable as you make them out to be. If they were, what would be the point of saying that salvation is only through the Catholic Church, even if one doesn't need to explicitly be a member of the church?

The church as people, no, the church as an idea, concept, set of beliefs, whatever you want to call it, yes.

The point is that the Catholic Church believes - and this is explicitly stated in the Vatican II documents - that it is the universal church meaning that it is the church of even those who do not believe in it. So, even those who do not believe in it are capable of being saved THROUGH it so long as they do not knowlingly reject it as the Truth. I don't think I need to point out that all three sources I cited in my previous post - which was almost my entire post in the first place - are either specifically from Catholic priests or from Catholic affiliated groups. Not to mention that a large portion of my knowledge of Catholicism comes from a doctorate holding Catholic theologian who has written multiple books on the subject and is the director of the university ministry program at the largest Catholic university in the US. My point is not to get into a "my source is bigger than your source" debate, but only to point out that these aren't things that I just thought up one day. Furthermore, let's not forget that there are priests and theologians in Catholicism who either explicitly or implicitly reject some of Vatican II's message. Yet, I can and have cited multiple priests (they're not too hard to find on general topics such as this), Catholic monks - one of which some people in the church would like to see Sainted, and Catholic theologians on the topic. I don't know how much more I have to do here. And as you can see, these are not new ideas. You'll notice the original copyright date on the last quotation in my previous post is 1938. Change - and the church is always changing in some regard - takes place slowly, and concerning these issues it is still in progress. There are many Catholic theologians who would equate the present transitions in theology with the previous 3 major transitions in Catholic history: the time immediately after Jesus life, Augustine, and then Aquinas.

EDIT: It must be said though that there is a fundamental point of yours that I couldn't agree more with and that's really the ultimate point here. We DON'T know anything regarding the salvation of anyone else, especially since we don't even know it for ourselves. And that's precisely why I find it extremely arrogant to say that non-Christians cannot be united with God. The Catholic Church teaches they can (note, can, not necessarily are) but ultimately the point is that only God can know.

tecoyah · 03-16-2004, 04:02 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thagrastay
[B]tecoyah-
Jesus does not want us to condemn you at all. We are not capable of that. Just as we a re not capable of sitting in Judgement of any other human being. Only He who holds the keys to Death and Hades is capable of that, and That is Jesus Himself.

Okay....one last attempt. Do you not see the hypocracy in the above quote.

"Jesus does not want us to condemn you at all", This to me is a beautiful statement and I honestly believe it to be true.

"just as we are not capable of sitting in judgement of any other"
Also well put and following the life of the christ.

"only he who holds the keys is capable of that"
I fully agree.

You then go on to judge an enormous portion of the population to hell by stating your understanding of the way to salvation. I firmly believe I am living my life in the way christ would have hoped, love and understanding as my tools for growth, yet YOU have judged me a "failed christian" because I interpret the scriptures in a way YOU dont approve of.
It is because of this mindset that I am not a christian by your own standards.I dont go to your church because there are people like you there, not because I dont love christ.
I very much hope you can understand the reason for this reply. I would not attempt to change the depth of faith you possess, as you obviously require it. perhaps a bit of redirection in understanding could be of benefit though.

Regardless, we will undoubtedly disagree in this realm, so be it.When all is said and done, I hope we can be more open in heaven.

Thagrastay · 03-16-2004, 08:07 AM

What church is it I attend?
I have judged no one. I have stated what Jesus has said. I am quoting Jesus. Deal with it.
IU don't consider you a "failed Christian", tecoyah- you have already said that you are not a christian. I do not consider you in any sort of religious category at all. I see you as a Child of God. I see you as a "Yet", truth be told. You have not fully come into your inheritence YET. And if you decide to, you will. If not, you won't. But I'm hoping you'll keep an open mind and at least check it out.
IMHO, too many people throw the baby out with the bathwater. They get all hung up on CHURCH and the silliness that accompanies it and walk away from it. But in doing so, they walk away from Jesu, too because they haven't seperated the two.
The Church is supposed to be the BODY of Christ. Christ is not the Body of the Church. The mistake many people make is they have the tail wagging the dog.
tecoyah- your walk with Christ- which is a title, by the way, not a name- is cool. I hope you choose to expand that. Christ's true Title is Meschiach- or Messiah, if you prefer. And His name is Yeshua- Jesus in the Greek. If you get to the place where you feel close enough to call Him by those, go ahead.
I bear you no ill will. I don't know you.
It sounds to me that you are mad at Christians because you have been offended by them- put on the spot- insulted, condemned. I don't condemn. I am a man of unclean lips and sins too numerous to list. Who am I to throw stones?
I do not consider myself a Christian. I don't like the conotations that comes with that title. I consider myself a Messianist: A follower of the Messiah, and student of His word. I believe what the Bible says is true and correct- the Old Testament conceals the New Testament and the New Testament reveals the Old Testament- that Jesus is who He said He was, did what He said He did and that His promises are true.
I am also a recovering Alcoholic, and I consider AA to be much closer to the model of the original 1st century church than the behemoth of traditions they have today.
I believe there is a middle ground in this communication and it is just establishing a common language. There is no need to abandon all hope here. You are a Child of the Mosdt High God of Heaven and Earth. He has moved Mountains and Galaxies and everyuthing in between so that reconciliation between mankind and Himself is now possible.
Jesus said: "I came so that you would have life, and life more abundantly." That's the Bible I follow. That's the Messiah I follow.
But He also said that the road is wide, but the gate is narrow.

asaris · 03-16-2004, 08:59 AM

Secret Method -- I think we actually agree, it's just that our emphases are somewhat different. I was discussing this with roommates and a friend last night, and that's the conclusion we came to. A Calvinist upbringing will affect one! Just for the record, the group was four graduate students at the most important Catholic university in the US (Go Fighting Irish!

), two of whom are theology students (there's a very thin line between a ninth year theology student and a PhD, mostly consisting of three letters). The joys of source comparison...

SecretMethod70 · 03-16-2004, 10:05 AM

asaris...heh, I think that's probably likely perhaps. I've found that a lot of times two people who essentially agree can "get into it" over the medium of the internet due to the lack of real-time communication and lack of non-verbal communication tainting the understanding of the words one uses. Cool to hear you're at Notre Dame - although I think "most important" is too subjective a title to lay on anything

Perhaps part of the difference in emphasis lies in the order which runs our respective universities. DePaul is Vincentian, although I don't know what Notre Dame is run by. However, I've always found it interesting whenever I went further north in the city and visit Loyola University - which is Jesuit - how completely different the religious environment is there. The two schools are rooted in the same belief system, yet there's such a drastic difference. So, perhaps something similar is the source of difference here. Anyway...yeah

I think a lot of times people can take the statement that one must first and foremost seek God and try to do what is right in His view and that what religion you partake in is, in many ways, secondary to that, as saying that it's "easy" to be united with God. But, truth be told, it means just the opposite. The fact is many (most?) Christians don't truly seek God, and most PEOPLE don't truly seek God. That's not to say that I'm on some pedestal - I don't know if I'd say I'm much better off than the average person in the world. We all have our vices. So, to say that one needn't NECESSARILY (meaning, it's not an end all or be all, but also meaning that it does help) be a part of Catholicism or a Christian religion for that matter isn't saying it's EASY by any means. It can be much more difficult outside of Christianity for many people, and that's precisely why we do have the gift of this religion to assist us. But, all it is saying is that it's POSSIBLE (but not necessarily probable).

asaris · 03-16-2004, 11:06 AM

Agreed. And Notre Dame is Holy Cross, IIRC.

Lebell · 03-16-2004, 12:19 PM

<--- Regis University - Jesuits...

Thagrastay · 03-18-2004, 08:00 AM

That explains so much, then. I understand lot more than I did before, now.
Good night.

hiredgun · 03-19-2004, 11:53 AM

<-- Georgetown University - Jesuits...

Although we're slowly becoming less and less Catholic as an institution, which saddens me, even though I'm not Christian.

For the record, a Father that I spoke with here about this subject concurred that the Church does not condemn all non-Christians to hell.

rodb · 04-08-2004, 09:14 PM

Thagastay, three quick questions. What is your view on creation? On the Harrowing of Hell? On the inerrancy of the bible?

And would just like to agree with tecoyah that you have done a awesome job (by your standards) of sealing your own damnation.

kittenpie · 04-16-2004, 12:51 PM

Here's what i have learned as a Catholic (and Christian) in my 42 years of life: 12 years of parochial school, four years at a Catholic university, and the last 10 years as a senior high school youth minister...

1. Jesus was a swell guy.
2. We should all love and take care of each other as much as possible.
3. Bible-schmible.
4. After death...it's anybody's guess.

This thread has been great fun and very interesting to read. Thanks to all of you who put so much effort and feeling into your thoughts.

Yakk · 04-16-2004, 02:26 PM

This thread gave me a thought.

Bible-worship seems alot like Idolotry, or placing another God before God.

Probably an overly inflamatory comment, I apologize for any conflict that results. But, I think it is sufficiently important to place into circulation.

And thanks, this thread had some interesting theology.

03-10-2004, 09:10 PM	#41 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I would just as soon people didn't "damn" each other around here. Lord knows I heard enough of it at the abortion clinic w/o dealing with it here... __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

03-11-2004, 06:24 AM	#43 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	How have I damned myself? By explaining what the Bible says? Please explain how this has bothered you. to the point that you believe it has damned me? Damned is a pretty harsh word for one who doesn't believe in this stuff to begin with. So exactly where is it I am damned to? Please explain. __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

03-11-2004, 07:04 AM	#44 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I must apologise for what appears to be a misinterpretation of my intent. I was damning no one, rather bringing to your attention the arrogant nature and tone of your religious statements, when read by one who is not of your faith. When put into the context of your statement that only the humble will be given a ticket to heaven, I simply found it hipocritical that you missed the lack of humility in your general tone and judgement of non christians as having no chance of redemtion. It may benefit those of great faith in the Christ to attempt a deeper understanding of his life and works, rather than a book written by an endless string of flawed humans. I love the man Jesus as an example to us all...and attempt to live my life by his standards, for someone else to tell me I am going to a hell they created in their own mind is insulting and degrading. Yet it is a continous part of many "christian" faiths. Again, my intent was not to damn you, but to explain my discomfort at the attitude you portray. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha Last edited by tecoyah; 03-11-2004 at 07:07 AM..

03-11-2004, 12:28 PM	#45 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	I don't understand. You claim to love the man Jesus as an example to us all and attempt to live your life by His standards. Many claim to want to do that as well. But you seem to disparage the part about a book written by an endless string of flawed humans- I can only assume you mean the Bible which is where you heard about Jesus to begin with, and then the ... for someone else to tell mne I am going to a hell they created in their own mind is insulting and degrading. Yet it is a continuous part of many "christian" faiths. In the words of C.S.Lewis- Jesus was only one of 3 things a Lunatic- along the order of someone who claimed to be a poached egg- a Liar, which would put Him along the same category as the Devil of hell or worse, or He was who He said He was. But He certainly couldn't be a nice teacher of cheery lessons and that was all. Because He claimed to be God. Jesus preached of Hell and Damnation. Jesus Preached about who would be aloowed into the Kingdom of God and what it would take to be allowed in. Jesus Preached about Sin and Salvation. Jesus preached about Love and Death and forgiveness and the hereafter and how no one was worthy to cvome to God unless they came through Him. Of course this is insulting stuff. Of course it stings and burns. It is supposed to. Jesus didn't come to preach things that would appeal to us and tickle our ears. He came with a two by four to get our attention because our very souls are at stake and He wants us to know He means business. He is not concerned with whether or not he hurts our feelings as long as He brings us home with Him. It's the Enemy that wants us concerned with how we feel. __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

03-11-2004, 02:43 PM	#46 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Thagrastay, Do a google on "The Jesus Seminar" and look up what they have to say on the Gospel of John, which is the source of much of what you speak about. (BTW, I love C.S. Lewis ) __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

03-11-2004, 03:39 AM	#42 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	well no one should be damning anyone, especially a christian. Judge not lest ye be judged.

03-11-2004, 05:17 PM	#48 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	I know Jesus because of the Bible. I have not received a mystic vision of Him apart from it. In fact, the Bible warns specifically against this. Jesus is My God. He is my salvation He is my Lord my Rock, My Love, the One upon whom I lean and to Whom I turn in my trouble. I did not invent the Bible and can tell you nothing that isn't in there, nor would I. Jesus spoke from the Bible. Jesus quoted it constantly, reminding everyone to whom He spoke that the words He said were the words He heard His Father speak and He was just repeating what His father Had already said. I do not tell you the Gospel according to Thagrastay, because that would get you nothing. And If there is ever such a book I urge you to burn it, quickly. Tecoyah, If I had no compassion, I would not even bother to respond. I would say"Let them go their own way- I have MY salvation and have been forgiven- Let them get their own!" But Jesus says "To whom much is given, much is required". And I know how much I have been forgiven of. How then can I turn my back and say to anyone "Go get your own"? This Salvation didn't come from me! It didn't come from anything I have ever done or said! This salvation came as a free gift of the One and Only God by way of His Son, to Me and anyone, like me, who is willing to humble themselves and ask to be forgiven! I am but one among countless many who have come before and about to come that will seek the forgiveness ans mercy of the Living God and receive it in the finished work of His Son. I am not certain what you mean by my acting more open minded toward others means. Tecoyah, I know what I know. If that offends you, I apologize. I am not the type to beat around the bush. I believe that the highest honor one person can pay another is just tell them the truth, and let the other do with it what they want. If I see a person about to step out in front of a bus, I will shout a warning, not clear my throat and hope they hear me. Idf this is indiscreet, then so be it. I Love enough to offend. I learned that from Jesus. I also love enough to care and to share and help and to listen and to learn and to laugh and to hold and be . I also learned that from Jesus. And from my friends. What may I learn from you? __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!" Last edited by Thagrastay; 03-11-2004 at 05:21 PM..

03-12-2004, 06:43 PM	#49 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Do you claim that it is impossible for someone who doesn't accept Jesus as there savior during their mortal life to make it into heaven? Do you realize that claiming impossibilities is unbiblical? It says in the bible many times that to God nothing is impossible. Therefore do not say you know that other people can't go to heaven if they don't accept Jesus during their mortal life. I still ask where in the bible does it say the age the people are accountable for their actions? You speak as if you know exactly what Gods plans and intentions are. As if you know exactly who will be saved and who will not be saved. The only thing I am sure of is that I cannot know those things to which you seem to know. I can be familiar with the teachings of the bible and have faith in their sayings. But does this mean that the bible is 100% correct in everything within it, does it mean I should take every verse of the bible litteraly? Have you read the original untranslated bible? Do you know hebrew and aramaic? Considering the original chapters of the bible do not exist I doubt this. Translations are increadibly vague many words have ambigious meanings and they can loose meaning in translation. Or even be translated just plane wrong. Also there has been many many years where people have had opportunity to change the bible to fit their needs. Something like this could not happen today but yet it could have in the past. Parts of the bible maybe shouldn't even be in the bible. In fact the letters written by paul were not written with the intention to be put in the bible but instead as letters to a church on how it should conduct itself. Some 50 years after Paul died they were added to the bible. Oddly enough one of these letters contains one of the most contriversial bible versus. Paul mentions that a woman should be subordinate to her husband and is not allowed to conduct worship for it was her who was first decieved. But yet everything that Paul and Jesus taught us before this verse was equality of men and women. Yet somehow Paul does an about face and throws this out of nowhere. There have been many studies on this verse and many theologins believe this verse was not even written by Paul but instead was added after his death to help keep women oppressed. The point is you cannot take everything in the bible litterally or as concrete fact because first through God all things are possible, if he wants something to happen it will happen. Second the bible can easily contain transcribing errors. Third the bible could have been changed intentionally by people in power (if you don't think this is possible look at man kinds track record, we were able to crucify our savior on a cross, do you think it is impossible for man to add a few words to a book?) That is why I believe you shouldn't get caught up in the details of individual versus of the bible, instead look at the big picture of what Jesus taught us. Love everyone as yourself. For love is what Jesus stood for. This means don't judge other people because you disagree with them. Don't look at them and say your going to hell, because you are not God, you cannot know that. Instead love them for who they are. Feel free to ask them about Jesus but don't force it on them. Acceptance of Jesus is something that has to come on your own. Forcing your beliefs on others will never work. God gave mankind freewill for a reason.

03-13-2004, 12:46 AM	#50 (permalink)
analog Banned	I have followed much of SecretMethod70's writings, threads, musings, etc., and as a Catholic, I must say I agree whole-heartedly with most everything he has had to say. I say most because i can't possibly have read it all. 1. What makes you- or anyone- think that you have the ability to judge for yourself whether someone is going to heaven or not? Therefore, asserting that someone MUST do x, y, and z, in order to get in to heaven, is foolish. We are human, we make mistakes, and we cannot know all. 2. It's appalling that in all this talk, it seems that everyone forgets the principle teachings of Jesus, and God through others- God loves everyone. Not SOME people, not "those who love jesus", not "only those who believe in Him", but EVERYONE. How can you say that a truly good person of any religion, belief system, or otherwise will go to hell, just because they believed in a different God? That's ludicrous. I love God. Jesus is my savior. I pray to God on my own terms, whenever I want to- and I don't have to be in a church to do it. He hears me everywhere.

03-13-2004, 03:18 AM	#51 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Rekna@Analog, I must say, were it not for christians like you I would likely never visit this board.I find the christ and his followers fascinating and think christianity is a wonderful religion in general. It is because of the people who "follow" his teachings, and don't simply spew biblical verse that intellectuals are accepting of this faith, and often converted. You are a credit to your faith, and I am sure Jesus smiles down upon you, as he does on us all to some extent. As a matter of clarification, I do accept Jesus into my spitituality, But not as the physical child of a creation entity.I try to follow his life lessons though. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-13-2004, 04:51 PM	#52 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	Please bear in mind that I have not told anyone that they are going to hell. The question was whether Jesus is the only way into Heaven. According to the Bible, which Rekna says is not reliable amd shouldn't be trusted, the answer is Yes. But further caveats I have heard in this thread are that God can always change His mind, and so, Jesus, having gone through that whole terrible scouring, beating and crucifixion and having bothered to resurrect Himself, did this conceivably for nothing, since: A. There are other ways into Heaven B. There are other ways into Heaven C. There are other ways into Heaven We could find the real reason accept the Bible may have either been changed or can't be believed, or people who quote it are harsh and rigid and unloving and not tolerant. But who knows. We could just ask God, but He is also capable of capriciously changing His mind, too. Not a whole lot of hope, there. And then there's that paul and the women thing. That's enough to piss any feminist off for sure and cast doubt on the whole Bible! I'll tell you Rekna, whatever you do, don't read Peter! Or Ephesians! or Corinthians! And good luck to any of you who want to be called Christians but deny waht Jesus actually taught. Because as uncomforatble, or as politically incorrect as it may be, all of christianity comes from that book you guys seem to mistrust so much that a whole bunch of people have been trying for two thousand years to discredit and have yet to do. If you want to learn more about it, but I doubt you do- you seem to comfortable in your disenfranchisement- read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh MacDowell". But be careful- it may change your worldview! __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!" Last edited by Thagrastay; 03-13-2004 at 05:12 PM..

03-14-2004, 02:49 AM	#55 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Thagrastay, You are welcome to believe I am misguided, and I am welcome to believe you are misguided. Perhaps we should just leave it at that. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

03-15-2004, 07:41 AM	#57 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	No, I'm pretty sure he meant THE way. Most Christians (I'm tempted to say all, but don't want to start that discussion again) believe that it is only through Jesus Christ that we are saved. Many, including myself, do not believe that explicit belief in Christ is necessarily essential -- my own point of view is that we know those who believe in Christ in this life will be saved. We don't know what happens to those who haven't heard, who have heard but rejected through no fault of their own, or if there's a chance given after death. But even though I'm not sure Thagrastay would even go as far as I do, the point is that there is only one means of salvation. Or did you expect God to be tortured to death more than once to save a bunch of rebel scum? __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

03-15-2004, 08:42 AM	#58 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	This is a thread about Catholicism and Christianity, is that not so? How then does this thread then extend to the salvation aspect of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, Atheists or anyone else? The Thread is about Catholic and Christian Differences! Look, I don't go to a Bar Mitzvah expecting to pick a fight with the Rabbi about the way he conducts his Synagogue. Why do you come to Catholic/Christain thread looking to start a conflict over the central tenet of both of these faiths? Despite what SecretMethod70 might espouse, He is not the Catholic Church and does not speak for it. in fact, his remarks that God could be either a He a She or an IT pretty much disqualify him form any serious contention in the Catholic or Christian field of serious belief. I would suggest that SecretMethod70 go back and study more and ask some serious questions since there is obviously some doubt and shaky faith there. But I digress. The point is, According to historical, traditional CHRISTIAN teaching, and the accepted words of Jesus the Messiah Himself, there is only ONE way to get to heaven and that is through Jesus. Anyone who is a Christian, and by that I mean a person who has made a conscious decision to follow the Messiah as their Lord, has had to search their own hearts and souls and research that aspect of the faith and face that and make that seemingly painful personal sacrifice and Choose to accept that idea and understands that to be the case- Jesus is THE way to heaven. Where that leaves anyone else is not part of this thread. Although, to be fair, I will say this- it leaves everyone else exactly where it left me for thirty years when I was doing my own thing- out in the cold. That may seem like a harsh thing to say, but it is the reality of the situation. Many, many people tried to talk to me about Messiah over the course of my life and I had no interest. I dismissed them as nuts, kooks, Bible Thumpers, crazies, zealots and pains in the neck. I had my own way of seeing things and my own ideas and beliefs and that was what I wanted. I was searching for what I wanted to see and was fine doing that. I certainly didn't need any Jesus. Until I did. I'm grateful He was willing to take me in when I needed Him after all the times I pushed Him away. But even after all my rejection and disdain and dismissal and such, He was still there to receive me, and forgive me and save me and make me clean and make me His own. This is available to everyone that is willing to come to Him as well. So, where does that leave the Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus and Wiccans and Pagans and everyone else? Exactly where they choose to be. Jesus says those who are not saved will not inherit the Kingdom. That's an accepted Christian teaching. That is why Christians are so grateful to have been rescued By Jesus from Hell and so eager to tell everyone else that they too can be rescued as well. But only Jesus Saves. And the choice is a personal one. I figure that all I can do is tell a person. That is as far as I can take it. The rest is up to them. I pray that it takes only one time, but I remember how many people over how many years it took to get the message through to me that I could really be happy, have peace and feel love. I wish that for everyone. Anyway, please don't get upset that in a Christian/Catholic thread we discuss Christian/Catholic things. __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

03-15-2004, 11:16 AM	#60 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	This is the problem with denominations in general. They all disagree on a few points and each think that their views are 100% correct. My view is this, i cannot be 100% correct and neither can any of those denominations. So instead take the parts that all of them agree on and you have a good start to how to worship God.

03-15-2004, 11:21 AM	#61 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	1. Aquinas was never condemned by the Catholic Church -- it was some local organization, perhaps a council at Paris, maybe the University of Paris, maybe the bishop of Paris, I can't remember which. Just a minor point, for the sake of nitpicking. 2. While it is true that all Christians hold that God is neither male nor female, and most Christian hold that he is neither masculine or feminine, rather he transcends all of these categories, nevertheless a couple points need to be made. First of all, the merely linguistic one that he/she/it is awfully cumbersome, and merely using 'it' would, according to the conventions of the english language, imply that God was not a person. Secondly, and I'm not sure what the Catholic church teaches, my denomination teaches that it is most right and fitting to refer to God as masculine, since this is how scripture universally refers to scripture -- in the passages where feminine imagery appears, it is always used in a simile, never a metaphor, and whenever he is referred to directly, it is as masculine. One example -- when Christ teaches us how to pray, it is to "Our Father". 3. While the Catholic church (and any church with any merit, for that matter) holds that there are some truths in other religions, this does not refute the fact that the Catholic church teaches that there is no salvation outside of Christ. That is, the central truth of salvation, that the path to salvation is through Christ, is one only found in the Christian faith. So while we can find wisdom in other faiths, wisdom that may have been disregarded to some extent by the Christian tradition, there is only salvation through Christ. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

03-15-2004, 12:33 PM	#62 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	One final point, I am undoubtedly going to Hell according to some posters here, as I hold a different interpretation than you do. But, I must say it will be quite refreshing.....to be free of this judgement of ignorance. If the christ truly wanted you to condemn me for my understanding of his life, Why would you follow such a cruel and closed minded individual? -------------bye--------------------------------------------------------------- __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-15-2004, 01:34 PM	#64 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I was born/baptized Catholic. I have sense abandoned it, but Catholic schooling made sure I understood it. My wife is some Protestants sect, Church of Christ or something like that. Is it wrong of me to refer to Catholicism as the 'true' church to her? This whole debate reminds me of the "Life of Brian". I'll let you guess the scene. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

03-15-2004, 03:49 PM	#66 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	A Stand! You've taken a stand! Congratulations! __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

03-15-2004, 04:02 PM	#67 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	tecoyah- Jesus does not want us to condemn you at all. We are not capable of that. Just as we a re not capable of sitting in Judgement of any other human being. Only He who holds the keys to Death and Hades is capable of that, and That is Jesus Himself. If anyone is to be condemned and judged, it is because they have decided to be. Salvation is available to any who are willing to receive it. If you choose not to have it, then it is entirely your choice. I fervently hope you choose life. I have found that people don't choose Jesus because they haven't gotten to know Him yet. And the only way to get to know Him, is to ask Him about Himself. It can't hurt. Peopole do stranger things. Be well, Be safe, Be at peace __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

03-15-2004, 04:44 PM	#68 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Regarding God's gender: Just to be clear, I didn't think it was a major point of your post, but I was just nitpicking again. Not to belabor the point, but I don't think the Catholic church is as charitable as you make them out to be. If they were, what would be the point of saying that salvation is only through the Catholic Church, even if one doesn't need to explicitly be a member of the church? On your reading, all one needs to do is seek God honestly and try to follow his will, since it's doubtful there are many people who believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church and do not belong to it. My own belief, which I don't think is too far from what the Catholic Church believes though with different emphases, is the following. We know that all those who hear the good news of Jesus Christ and respond to it by accepting him as Lord are saved. We know that all those who hear the good news and reject it are damned. What we don't know are the two following things: 1. What happens to those who don't hear the good news. God is completely just, so would not be acting wrongly in condemning them to hell. God is not required to save anyone. But God is also completely merciful, so it would not be beyond comprehension if, in the same way he takes my feeble strivings towards Christ and attributes them to me as righteousness, to take those strivings of those who haven't heard the good news and attribute them as righteousness. 2. We don't know what 'hear' means in this context. In the literal sense, of course, it refers to those who died before the coming of Christ, or before they were able to hear the good news. But it could easily also refer to those who, for various reasons, weren't in a position to hear the gospel in a metaphorical sense, people who were driven away from the church by the evildoing of persons who claim to be members of the Church, for example. We don't know. In the end, the safest thing is to say that we know how one may be saved. We don't know what happens to anyone else, and we are told not to judge. I take the words of Paul very seriously: "I do not even judge myself." I don't know whether or not I will be saved -- how can I judge anyone else? Again, I'm not sure how close this is to the Catholic position. I'll ask my theologian roommate next time I see him, since I trust his knowledge about this sort of thing. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

03-16-2004, 04:02 AM	#70 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thagrastay [B]tecoyah- Jesus does not want us to condemn you at all. We are not capable of that. Just as we a re not capable of sitting in Judgement of any other human being. Only He who holds the keys to Death and Hades is capable of that, and That is Jesus Himself. Okay....one last attempt. Do you not see the hypocracy in the above quote. "Jesus does not want us to condemn you at all", This to me is a beautiful statement and I honestly believe it to be true. "just as we are not capable of sitting in judgement of any other" Also well put and following the life of the christ. "only he who holds the keys is capable of that" I fully agree. You then go on to judge an enormous portion of the population to hell by stating your understanding of the way to salvation. I firmly believe I am living my life in the way christ would have hoped, love and understanding as my tools for growth, yet YOU have judged me a "failed christian" because I interpret the scriptures in a way YOU dont approve of. It is because of this mindset that I am not a christian by your own standards.I dont go to your church because there are people like you there, not because I dont love christ. I very much hope you can understand the reason for this reply. I would not attempt to change the depth of faith you possess, as you obviously require it. perhaps a bit of redirection in understanding could be of benefit though. Regardless, we will undoubtedly disagree in this realm, so be it.When all is said and done, I hope we can be more open in heaven. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-16-2004, 08:07 AM	#71 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	What church is it I attend? I have judged no one. I have stated what Jesus has said. I am quoting Jesus. Deal with it. IU don't consider you a "failed Christian", tecoyah- you have already said that you are not a christian. I do not consider you in any sort of religious category at all. I see you as a Child of God. I see you as a "Yet", truth be told. You have not fully come into your inheritence YET. And if you decide to, you will. If not, you won't. But I'm hoping you'll keep an open mind and at least check it out. IMHO, too many people throw the baby out with the bathwater. They get all hung up on CHURCH and the silliness that accompanies it and walk away from it. But in doing so, they walk away from Jesu, too because they haven't seperated the two. The Church is supposed to be the BODY of Christ. Christ is not the Body of the Church. The mistake many people make is they have the tail wagging the dog. tecoyah- your walk with Christ- which is a title, by the way, not a name- is cool. I hope you choose to expand that. Christ's true Title is Meschiach- or Messiah, if you prefer. And His name is Yeshua- Jesus in the Greek. If you get to the place where you feel close enough to call Him by those, go ahead. I bear you no ill will. I don't know you. It sounds to me that you are mad at Christians because you have been offended by them- put on the spot- insulted, condemned. I don't condemn. I am a man of unclean lips and sins too numerous to list. Who am I to throw stones? I do not consider myself a Christian. I don't like the conotations that comes with that title. I consider myself a Messianist: A follower of the Messiah, and student of His word. I believe what the Bible says is true and correct- the Old Testament conceals the New Testament and the New Testament reveals the Old Testament- that Jesus is who He said He was, did what He said He did and that His promises are true. I am also a recovering Alcoholic, and I consider AA to be much closer to the model of the original 1st century church than the behemoth of traditions they have today. I believe there is a middle ground in this communication and it is just establishing a common language. There is no need to abandon all hope here. You are a Child of the Mosdt High God of Heaven and Earth. He has moved Mountains and Galaxies and everyuthing in between so that reconciliation between mankind and Himself is now possible. Jesus said: "I came so that you would have life, and life more abundantly." That's the Bible I follow. That's the Messiah I follow. But He also said that the road is wide, but the gate is narrow. __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

03-16-2004, 08:59 AM	#72 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Secret Method -- I think we actually agree, it's just that our emphases are somewhat different. I was discussing this with roommates and a friend last night, and that's the conclusion we came to. A Calvinist upbringing will affect one! Just for the record, the group was four graduate students at the most important Catholic university in the US (Go Fighting Irish! ), two of whom are theology students (there's a very thin line between a ninth year theology student and a PhD, mostly consisting of three letters). The joys of source comparison... __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

03-16-2004, 10:05 AM	#73 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	asaris...heh, I think that's probably likely perhaps. I've found that a lot of times two people who essentially agree can "get into it" over the medium of the internet due to the lack of real-time communication and lack of non-verbal communication tainting the understanding of the words one uses. Cool to hear you're at Notre Dame - although I think "most important" is too subjective a title to lay on anything Perhaps part of the difference in emphasis lies in the order which runs our respective universities. DePaul is Vincentian, although I don't know what Notre Dame is run by. However, I've always found it interesting whenever I went further north in the city and visit Loyola University - which is Jesuit - how completely different the religious environment is there. The two schools are rooted in the same belief system, yet there's such a drastic difference. So, perhaps something similar is the source of difference here. Anyway...yeah I think a lot of times people can take the statement that one must first and foremost seek God and try to do what is right in His view and that what religion you partake in is, in many ways, secondary to that, as saying that it's "easy" to be united with God. But, truth be told, it means just the opposite. The fact is many (most?) Christians don't truly seek God, and most PEOPLE don't truly seek God. That's not to say that I'm on some pedestal - I don't know if I'd say I'm much better off than the average person in the world. We all have our vices. So, to say that one needn't NECESSARILY (meaning, it's not an end all or be all, but also meaning that it does help) be a part of Catholicism or a Christian religion for that matter isn't saying it's EASY by any means. It can be much more difficult outside of Christianity for many people, and that's precisely why we do have the gift of this religion to assist us. But, all it is saying is that it's POSSIBLE (but not necessarily probable). __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

03-16-2004, 11:06 AM	#74 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Agreed. And Notre Dame is Holy Cross, IIRC. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

03-16-2004, 12:19 PM	#75 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	<--- Regis University - Jesuits... __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

03-18-2004, 08:00 AM	#76 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	That explains so much, then. I understand lot more than I did before, now. Good night. __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

03-19-2004, 11:53 AM	#77 (permalink)
hiredgun Addict	<-- Georgetown University - Jesuits... Although we're slowly becoming less and less Catholic as an institution, which saddens me, even though I'm not Christian. For the record, a Father that I spoke with here about this subject concurred that the Church does not condemn all non-Christians to hell.

04-08-2004, 09:14 PM	#78 (permalink)
rodb Upright	Thagastay, three quick questions. What is your view on creation? On the Harrowing of Hell? On the inerrancy of the bible? And would just like to agree with tecoyah that you have done a awesome job (by your standards) of sealing your own damnation.

04-16-2004, 12:51 PM	#79 (permalink)
kittenpie Upright	Here's what i have learned as a Catholic (and Christian) in my 42 years of life: 12 years of parochial school, four years at a Catholic university, and the last 10 years as a senior high school youth minister... 1. Jesus was a swell guy. 2. We should all love and take care of each other as much as possible. 3. Bible-schmible. 4. After death...it's anybody's guess. This thread has been great fun and very interesting to read. Thanks to all of you who put so much effort and feeling into your thoughts. __________________ She had diamonds on the inside. ~Ben Harper

04-16-2004, 02:26 PM	#80 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	This thread gave me a thought. Bible-worship seems alot like Idolotry, or placing another God before God. Probably an overly inflamatory comment, I apologize for any conflict that results. But, I think it is sufficiently important to place into circulation. And thanks, this thread had some interesting theology. __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.