tecoyah

Seems like a great place for alternative parenting to be discussed. I was wondering how everyone feels about teaching your kids at home and birthing out of the hospital, as pregnancy is not a sickness?

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:::OshnSoul:::

home birth- I might do it if I were to have another child.
but ultimately, if I were to do differently the second time, at home or at the hospital, I would have a water birth. I hear it is so much more relaxing and less painful.

homeschool- I am seriously considering that for my son. He is almost 4 now, so once he is 5 I would teach him at home.
Children are so stinkin' smart and I really feel that they learn a lot more from ones they know and love. Plus, any place you go is a classroom- grocery store, driving, park, etc.
There are limitless opportunities and methods of homeschooling.

hrdwareguy

My wife is just about due with our second child. The first was a hospital birth and this one is going to be with a midwife. We are planning on doing the water birth.

As for homeschooling, we have talked about it. The big drawback is the social interaction with multiple ethnic and socioeconomic groups.

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raeanna74

I think home birth is great. I had my daughter in the hospital. It was an excellent experience. The hospital actually employed midwives. I did not use a midwife but I had nurses and my mother who all offered many simple suggestions other than medication. I went for about 10 hours in second stage with no meds. The reason I ended up taking meds is to help move things along. No matter what was done my pelvis was simply to narrow and my daughter's head too big. I needed a C-section after 21 hours of labor (not counting the week of prelabor at home) and there was not hope of a natural birth. It's better I had my daughter in a hospital but I expected problems since my family - the women have all had large babies. My grandmother being 17 lbs AT BIRTH. Those who can do it should.

As for homeschooling. I was homeschooled from 7th-12th grade, My brother was from K-12. Attending college was no problem. My ACTs scores were above average and my brother scored well too. It was a great experience and as it's popularity increases the activity groups that kids can be involved in are growing in size and variety. Our local homeschool group competed with the local schools in soccer. As a mother with a teaching degree I intend to homeschool my daughter for a few grades at least. I think it would be a waste of my degree not to give my daughter the one on one attention that I could do for her. Homeschooling can be as expensive as a private school depending on what you do with the child. There are so many education opportunities that some parents miss because they aren't thinking in an "education" state of mind. I learned much that I wouldn't have had I been in public school. Our local homeschool group numbers over 200 average when they meet at the Y every Tuesday. There are children of all ages, ethnic groups, and religions there. Handicapped as well. It seems the ratio of handicapped children in homeschooling is a little higher because parents are more involved with their children who have special needs. I learned to accept and understand the needs of the handicapped a little better I think because of that.

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:::OshnSoul:::

That's what extracurricular activites are for. And it's not as "peer pressured" and clique-y. Such as girls/boyscouts, campfire, sports teams, gymnastics/martial arts, dance....I could go on.

sillygirl

Now, I'm not a parent at the moment, but I will be someday (maybe), and here's a short opinion of mine. My children will NOT be homeschooled.

The homeschooled kids that I've known have usually had a few characteristics that make them stand out, and the biggest one I can think of right now is the lack of social skills that most of them have. I can make a list, but that's a big one that encompasses a few things. These kids usually also have an attachment to their parents (or whichever one did the schooling) that other kids don't, and can be a little excessive. One friend of mine said that he wished he'd been in a public school just because of the lack of social skills that he's developed, and because it's more difficult for him now.

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tecoyah

Interesting. I would have to ask about the anti-social aspects of public schooled kids as well, the extreme bieng the colombines and such. While I realize the perception of "the lone kid" in a homeschooling environment, my personal experience has been far different. We belong to a community of like minded parents who go out of our ways to create group learning, seems to work quite well.

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sillygirl

A lot of my experience has been with a few of my cousins who were homeschooled from a young age. They come from a family of 10 kids. The difference in the kids who went to public school and the ones who've been at home is noticeable, especially in a public situation. They aren't as independent as the rest, they rely on mommy and daddy to validate everything they do. I guess that a lot of how kids end up has to do with the way their parents teach them.

I don't plan on having children for a very, very long time, so hopefully by the time that happens (if it ever does), there will be something more/better that seems right to me.

This is just my opinion on the matter, though, and I guess it might not mean much because I'm not a mom.

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Anyone can be passionate, but it takes real lovers to be silly-Rose Franken
....absence makes me miss him more...

:::OshnSoul:::

lol- my son is so social without social environments, so he will have no problem with homeschooling.
He is a talker and not a listener, so I think that it all depends on your child's personality.
My son would learn more on a hands-on, one-on-one learning system more than a social environment where peer pressure and cliques are surrounding him.
like I said in my previous post, I can enroll him in other activities (sports/boy scouts/young life/martial arts to keep him active and give him a social life without so much focus on the peer pressure and cliques. He is very independent and learns much more when given individual attention.
But to children who are not so social or really listen well, they will excel in a public school and not be too bothered by the whole atmosphere. Just something to think about as your child grows, you will be able to tell how your child will do, depending on their skills and personality. Public school is good for some kids, homeschool is good for others. Nothing wrong with either of them, I just want to be able to have my son learn at his pace and according to his personality. He is a lot like me and learns more by visual and personal interactions.

clavus

I know 3 homeschooled kids. They are all pretty fucked up individuals. Two of them come from a home where the mom is so lazy and self-centered that she "home-schools" because it is easier than actually getting them to a real school. I'm pretty sure their lessons include extensive studies of the Jerry Springer Show.

The third kid comes from some pretty normal, smart, loving parents. But the kid absolutely can not function unless he is getting constant validation from his mom.

Granted, these kids do not represent 100% of the home-schooled students, but it gives me pause.

I think the real issue is that most people, myself included, think we know quite a bit. We think that if we know it, we can teach it. Well, I am of the opinion that my kids are too important to trust their education to one main teacher. Even thought I'm pretty damn smart, exceedingly well-spoken and very very humble (*wink*), I'm not the best one to teach my kids.

I also think it's good for kids to be socialized in a school setting. I don't want my kids meeting with others one or two times a week. I want them surrounded by their peers for hours daily.

Of course, I live in a great school district. If I lived in a shitty one, you'd probably see me homeschooling.

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:::OshnSoul:::

^^^It all depends on the parent, as well, I see.

Symphony

I wanted to home-school my son until I saw him in play groups. I disappeared when my son was with his peers. He was immediately outgoing and I could never stay long enough to suit his social needs.

I also have a great public school in my neighborhood. I volunteer on Tuesdays and my sons constant misbehavior ensures that either my husband or I are in daily contact with his teacher. (No Kidding!) But even though he's always being corrected he loves school! He's just testing everything and everyone around him, that's the kind of kid he is.

I believe that when he gets into his teens, I'll end up home-schooling. School, unless it changes dramatically, will be way too boring for him. Also I like the idea of choosing his subjects at that age. Especially what history he will learn! I also hope that his social ties are strong enough by then that he'll still see many friends without actually going to school.

Now I'm way off into the future! Surely he'll surprise me as he always does. I guess my point is that I agree with you who said it's the parent AND the child that make home-schooling work. We have different needs and abilities that change constantly; it's great to remember that we always have SOME choices.

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raeanna74

Those of you who mention having a great school district. I can totally understand the reasoning behind going ahead and sending your child to the public school.

Unfortunately, in my town we have only 2 small parochial schools. I have been involved in both of those as well as taught art in the public schools. My neighbor children and a couple children that I watch after school have related enough information to me to add to my knowledge of the schools already. I know my current public school system stinks. One neighbor girl who is quite bright has come to me for help with fractions. She is in 5th grade and doesn't know half of her multiplication tables and has not had much division - yet she's doing fractions. Major problem there. This is not the only incident I've seen showing a lack in educational quality.

The school district recently consolidated most of their public schools into one school. There are now only 3 main schools in town. Between those schools they manage to make the children from my area change between 3 busses to just get to school in the morning. Our town is only about 8 miles long and 2 miles wide.

Also the lower elementary students have to eat their lunch at 10:30 am so that the older students can eat theirs at 11:30. !0:30 sounds too early for me. When the kids get to my place after school they are begging for food because they are hungry. I've heard this from the children and the parents so I know it's not just the kids trying to get sympathy from me.

With this kind of system I cannot imagine sending my daughter to the public school.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

ShaniFaye

My daughter has been taught at home since the age of 4 (she is now 10) this past fall she took her first Iowa basic skills test and placed in the top 2% of the nation in scores and her abilities are on a 9th grade level

The county we live in has a GREAT home school association and with all my daughters extra activites she lacks for NO social interaction and in no ways is comsidered a "fucked up" kid by anyone who knows her.

I would like to point out, selfish as it may seem, at least with her not in the public school environment she is not FORCED to to around children that I would in no way shape or form want her to be around, and by that I dont mean just normal spoiled brats, bullies, etc I mean the really really really rotten children that needed to be in prison from birth (I know some of ya'll know what I mean)

I WILL say that homeschooling may not be for everychild but in my case I do not see where it has hurt or hindered mine in the slightest...she is brilliant, she is polite, she does the same stupid 10 year old shit most other 10 year olds do lol, and she one of the most social kids I know lol

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Rodney

As a student teacher, I won't speak for or against homeschooling. But I will point out that some school districts do actively support homeschooling through homeschool groups that bring together kids for various activities, teacher/advisors to help the parents, field trips, and so on. If you're waffling on which way to go on this issue, check out what, if anything, your school district will do for you.

I have seen the socialization issue that some of you complained about in one case, with a pair of twins, but that was frankly because Mom basically dominated their life. So these two girls grew up kind of distant with other people. But they're going to public high school now and they turned into twin 16-year-old goddesses, so I expect they're getting all the socialization they can stand right now.

:::OshnSoul:::

i think that there are two types of parents when it comes to homeschooling, and what most people see from a spectator-view, is that the children who are home-schooled are "fucked up". But they don't think about how the parents treat them.
Some parents are the dominating type. They want every opportunity to control their child and their life, knowing everything that's going on or making them try to be "perfect".
OR, in the case below, unmotivated and possibly not teaching well. It's all the intent and mindset of the parent how well their child can do at homeschooling.

Or there are the parents like ShaniFaye who helps their child, is there for them, makes learning fun, and keeps them active and social.

Dano069

Our daughter was a home birth attended by our physician. Since our two boys were no complication births, we decided to have our third child at home. Other than almost having to catch her (the doctor arrived with 5 mins to spare) things went great.

As for home schooling, I have mixed feelings. My only experience with home schooled kids was the national spelling bee from a few years back. The girl who won was home schooled. All I could fixate on was when she was spelling the winning word she would smell her fingers inbetween letters, sort of like the Mary Catherine Catholic school girl character from SNL. Very strange indeed.

However, I think that if the school system is NOT providing your kids with the best education possible, then you need to home school them. Hell, they can always get play time when their friends come home from school.

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PorscheBunny

No home births for me. I don't want to have to clean house for everyone, they can just come see me at the hospital.

If I'm still a single-parent when Helen is school-aged, she'll have to go to school.

I am leary of solitary home-schooling, because I've met many children with issues similar to that mentioned above. I would prefer a home-school co-operative, where several families are pitching in on the joint education of their children. You don't have the variance of a public school, but you don't have near the problems either.

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sapiens

Obviously, there are a lot of variables to consider when making a decision about your child's education. One that I have considered is "Do I have the skills necessary to home school my child?" I like to think that I have those skills, but I haven't had to make the decision yet - our daughter is only 9 months old. Resources like those described above definitely make the prospect of home schooling more feasible.

If you're in a bad school district, homeschooling looks even better. Some might argue that every district is a bad district in the US. Have you seen our scores in math, science, etc. compared to other industrialized nations? Ugh! (Of course, teachers do not bear the full responsibility for our abysmal academic performance as a nation. A few years ago, parents in my town were lobbying the schoolboard to eliminate homework...)

On a separate, but related issue, people often talk about the opportunities for socialization that homeschooled kids miss. Personally, I think that those concerns are overblown. Socialization comes naturally, reading does not. With the prospect of extracurricular activities and home school social groups, those concerns become even more irrelevant.

Don't even get me started about how schools should be ability-tracked rather than age-tracked (as most are now)...

smarm

I liked the idea that when my children were born, that there was a neo-natal intensive care facility 30 seconds "roll" from the birthing room. Something about that made the birthing experience feel "safer" to my wife and me. We both agreed that we would rather be in a place we could have near instant access to emergency care facilities than in our house. It just seemed to us that we would be risking too much to have to wait on an ambulance, even if that is a just a low probability worst case scenario.

As far as homeschooling goes, I am neither for nor against it. We will not choose it for our children because we believe that academic teaching is a skilled profession that requires significant training and talent. We do not believe that we have the necessary training and talent to be the best teachers that our kids could have. That being said, I presume there are many parents who do, and I certainly don't have any problems with the choice they make, I admire their sacrifice and the effort they make for their children.


-smarm

gibingus

pretty hard to get an athletic scholarship if you home school.

i'd say sports are a pretty good reason not to homeschool. extra cirricular activities are the means to creating a balanced life, you learn way more in school than just in class. performing in front of crowds, competing against your peers... these are big lessons.

also, i admit as a parent that i don't know everything there is to know about everything. not that teachers do, but there is strength in numbers and a collection of people, each with specific expertise, has great value that i do not have alone.

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Tirian

I gotta agree with you on this one. Really what difference does the room make in the bigger scheme of things ? If all goes well the hospital is not such a 'bad' place really, and if all does not go so well, some of the hospitals feature become a lot more attractive than they might at first appear.

My oldest son was a C-section birth after a difficult time, and I am glad my wife an I were already at the hospital and had quick access to emergency personal and equipment.

As for education, there are alternatives somewhere in between home school and public education. Private and or christian schools can be an excellent alternative depending on your situation (obviously). I attended small multi-grade classrooms for my elementary years, and then again in 10th grade.

My two boys currently attend a small school located in an acreage type of country setting. There are 9 grades - two teachers, and 29 students total. This low student/teacher ratio and multi grade setup allows for a lot more flexibility than a traditional public school.

The environment is also a little less harsh than that of a large public school. Every student knows each other and they create a more inclusive unit. Older students help along younger, and they are encouraged to include every individual as an important person in their school lives.

Yes I pay some $$ in tuition to make this happen. (And I pay my public school taxes as well even though I don't use the system-but that is another thread) I don't think it is any more money in my case than buying all the things required to home school.

raeanna74

Depending on your area homeschooling can offer as many or more opportunities as the public schools. You can also get athletic scholarships. I know 2 boys from our local homeschool group who did. The local public schools allowed students from our homeschool groups to come in and join in select classes, athletics, and use the chemistry labs. We had access to some college programs as well. The local technical college allowed some of our highschool homeschool students to take the entry test for certain freshman classes. Before my brother graduated from highschool he already had 12 college credits under his belt and had tutorage from college professors. My brother participated in soccer and basketball competition between our homeschool group and the public schools in the area. At my highschool graduation there were 4 other homeschoolers graduating and we had our current state senator come to speak. It was awesome. I attended public school from K-6th grade. I really feel I had many more opportunites because of the freedom that homeschooling offered, the cooperative environment of our public schools and colleges in the area, and the homeschool group which we were involved. Many of the parents worked in high profile jobs and we had oppotunities to tour the jail, lawyer offices, insurance companies and see behind the scenes in many places. We were able to go in smaller groups than a public school class could accomplish and that smaller number opened more doors for us. Because of the atmosphere of homeschooling in our area and my background in teaching it would be foolish for me to send my daughter to the inferior quality public schools (an parochial) that we have in our area.

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"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

tecoyah

My wife and I had our first child in a birthing center, unfortunately the doctor and staff paid no heed to the "written" requests we filled out. We requested no drugs unless we asked, they drugged her to speed up contractions. we asked they refrain from cutting the cord and allow a natural delivery of the placenta, they cut it immediately, and then forcefully pulled out the placenta(causing hemmorage).
The doctor and nurses seemed to think she was sick, and removed any control she had, this made for a very uncomfortable birth.

Our next two births were at home, alone. I cannot even begin to explain the difference. These were the most amazing moments(hours) of my life, and I regret that Maya was a hospital birth.
I will not go into some of the statistics we uncovered while researching the extensive information needed to have a safe homebirth, but I will say I was disgusted with much of the Medical profession after learning some of it.

My point is.....there is no wrong way to have a baby. We will each go in the direction we will. And stastistically, there are less complications, and a lower mortality rate to homebirthed babies.
That in itself does not make homebirth "better", just better for us.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

KazronVZ

I apologize if i have overstepped my boundaries and this forum was for parents only, however i did not find any such message in the forum rules. With that said, here's my input from a child's standpoint.

I'm 17 years old, almost 18, a senior in highschool. I'm extremely cynical of the school system, i agree that in most cases public schools are Terrible, and private aren't all that better usually. However, having stated that, you need to consider the reprecussions of homeschooling.

Every homeschooled kid i've come across has been so socially deprived it's almost sad. In addition, most people are not as well taught. I'm not trying to say that some of you would make poor teachers. I agree school systems are terrible, and many of you are probably very intelligent, but your children need a healthy social environment, and an even competitive learning environment.

Once again, im not sure i was supposed to post here, especially not being an adult yet, but i just felt you should look at it from the child's perspective. Yes, it would be great for you to control your child's life, limit their exposure to bad things, speed up their learning, etc etc. But all these things are what makes a person normal and balanced. I apologize if my view is a bit one sided, but i think homeschooling is a poor solution to a bad problem.

ShaniFaye

As I stated earlier....in some cases that may be the point, but these days with the advent of really good home school associations, like mine, thats not the "norm" anymore...If the child's parents think, oh hell the schools are crappy we'll just deal with this at home and leave it at that, yes it becomes a problem, but when you have a parent that realizes the potential for problems that could develop and cares enuff to see that it doesnt happen, its a great experience and opportunity for the child...I mean come on....when I was in school I was one of the geeks that was picked on constantly for being too smart, not having the right clothes etc...and I really had no friends until I hit high school and went from ugly duckling to swan so to speak....I was miserable from about the 3rd grade to the 8th grade and found any excuse I could to not have to attend school....how is that kind of situation better?

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KazronVZ

First of all, "these days" are today, and i'm in school right now, and i Am encountering homeschooled students like those. Maybe im just meeting all the wrong people.

And like i said, it may not seem like the school environment is a better surrounding for education, but a person gets educated on so many different levels. At least you've learned to cope with social pressure, and dealt with changing your personality and learned how to make friends. You went through public schooling your whole life and turned out just fine, how can it be such a bad thing?

ShaniFaye

yeah I came out a-ok eventually, but it was a long road to get there.... I'm almost 36, I've been out of school for almost 20 years, public school today is not what it was 23 years ago when I was 13. Who says that just because my daughter isnt in public school that she does not have social pressure? With her activities in the home school association, church, ballet lessons and music lessons, I would be willing to bet that she comes in just as much contact with "learning" how to deal with social and peer pressures and the next kid, my one assurance is that she's getting an excellent education and her testing scores prove it. She is just as smart as I was at that age and I was going to be damned if she was going to be put in the same "so called" gifted classes I was, which were nothing more than "busy work" classes to keep us occupied and out of troubl. Of course I can only speak for my child and how I approach homeschooling, but I do know that I'm not the only one that makes sure she has a well rounded social life, many other mothers/fathers/grandparents do just the same things I do.

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

tecoyah

We will all have to make choices concerning the upbringing of our children. Perhaps we may have a new understanding when we reach the point of dealing with children, perhaps not. There is very little relevence in a highschool student, deciding how to raise a non-existant child. That is not to say your opinion is irrellevant, your criticism of one who actually has the experience and is required to act in real life situations is another story.

Nothing that effects my child is taken on lightly, and literally dozens of aspects are considered in each descision.
Bear in mind that these people are not gaming, these are decisions of the utmost importance, as they effect our children forever. Thus much thought usually goes into each choice, and life experience that youth will not have had the opportunity the feel and see.
Likely many will take this rant as an affront, and that is unfortunate, but expected. No insult or degadation is intended, simply clarification concerming what a parent must deal with.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Jizz-Fritter

There are people who believe that the public schools are very good at crushing the creativity of children. Public schools were created to prep children for factories.

Little Johnny: "I want to draw."

Teacher: "I'm sorry honey, but you have to learn math, or you will bomb the standardized test, and I'll be out of a job."

If you want social skills + creativity and willful pursuit pursuit of education check out a montessori school. If you don't have one in you area, you should go to the nearest one and understand how you can facilitate a child's education instead of shoving it down their throats.

Also, if you home school, make sure that your children take piano or violin lessons. It has been proven that music helps children's brains to develop and helps them later on in math and spacial reasoning.

Here's something you might find interesting that was in the footnotes of Noam Chomsky's "Understanding Power":

Juliet B. Schor, The Overworked American: The Unexpected Decline of Leisure, New York: BasicBooks, 1991, pp. 60-61. An excerpt:

"Employers found the first generation of industrial workers almost impossible to discipline. Attendance was irregular, and turnover high. Tolerance for the mindlessness and monotony of factory work was low. "The highlander, it was said, 'never sits at ease at a loom; it is like putting a deer in the plough.'" Employers devised various schemes to instill obedience. They posted supervisors, levied fines, and fired their workers. Beatings were common, especially among slaves and child laborers. One early factory owner explained: "I prefer fining to beating, if it answers . . . [but] fining does not answer. It does not keep the boys at their work."

Many employers and social reformers became convinced that the adult population was irredeemably unfit for factory work. They looked to children, hoping that "the elementary school could be used to break the labouring classes into those habits of work discipline now necessary for factory production. . . . Putting little children to work at school for very long hours at very dull subjects was seen as a positive virtue, for it made them 'habituated, not to say naturalized, to labour and fatigue.'"

Merle Curti, The Social Ideas of American Educators, Totowa, NJ: Littlefield, Adams, 1959. An excerpt (pp. 218-220, 228, 230, 203):

"Hardly an annual meeting of the National Education Association was concluded without an appeal on the part of leading educators for the help of the teacher in quelling strikes and checking the spread of socialism and anarchism. Commissioners of education and editors of educational periodicals summoned their forces to the same end. . . . In his report for [1877] John Eaton, Commissioner of Education, insisted that the school could train the child to resist the evils of strikes and violence and declared that capital should "weigh the cost of the mob and tramp against the expense of universal and sufficient education. . . ." In his presidential address in 1881 James H. Smart, admitting that it was reasonable for the poor man, particularly after middle age, to demand a "division of property," declared that the free school did more "to suppress the latent flame of communism than all other agencies combined. . . ." Again and again educators denounced radical doctrines and offered education as the best preventive and cure. . . .

Education was considered a good investment. Among the benefactors of the public schools were Henry Frick, John D. Rockefeller, George Peabody, John F. Slater, Robert C. Ogden, Andrew Carnegie, Elbert H. Gray, and Pierre S. Dupont. . . . The Commissioner of Education in 1896 told superintendents that they would find their best support in conservative business leaders. . . . Educators accepted, in general, the business man's outlook and consciously or unconsciously molded the school system to accord with the canons of a profit-making economic system. . . . [As the social reformer Jane Addams stated in 1897:] "The business man has, of course, not said to himself: 'I will have the public school train office boys and clerks for me, so that I may have them cheap,' but he has thought, and sometimes said, 'Teach the children to write legibly, and to figure accurately and quickly; to acquire habits of punctuality and order; to be prompt to obey, and not question why; and you will fit them to make their way in the world as I have made mine!'"

agball

Don't do it. Kids need lots of interaction/socialization with other kids. I am very against Home Schooling

:::OshnSoul:::

^^^ your opinion is accepted, but it is an opinion. Thank you