f6twister

My wife and her friend left on a trip to Vegas yesterday. During the time leading up to their trip, there were a number of comments made that have me wondering what people think of me as a parent. For example:

My mom: If you need any help or need to get away from the kids, just give me or your sister a call and we will come right over. Your sister can even stay overnight and help.

My sister: I can stay over and be a temporary nanny while she is gone. Just let me know.

My in-laws: Are you going to be okay while she is gone? You are going to get overwhelmed trying to deal with the kids alone all day.

(My favorite) My never married, never been a parent upstairs neighbor (and very occasional babysitter): If you have any questions on the kids schedules or anything else, just give me a call.

Admittedly, I've never had to take care of the kids by myself for longer than 12 hrs. However, I find no correlation between that and having the ability to care for my own children alone for three days.

Is there a just an assumption that because I'm the dad and not the mom that I am less qualified or capable of caring for my children? I guess I'm trying to see if this is a common thing among other dads of if its just me that is being treated as incompetent.

Any other dads have similar experiences?

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A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. Calvin

vanblah

I wouldn't call it incompetence. I get the same sort of treatment when my wife leaves (rarely) on overnight trips.

I think it's more that people, women in particular, think that men are clueless or helpless when it comes to taking care of young kids for an extended period. They probably think it's "cute" to say those things and in a sense it is "cute." Every television show that had a family in the central plot had an episode or two about the "helpless father" who couldn't handle the kids when the wife went away ... or an episode about how the father thought it was "easy" to take care of the kids and the wife went away for a weekend to "prove something."

Don't let it bother you unless someone says point-blank, "You can't take care of your kids because you are incompetent."

Of course, not all women think that men are helpless when it comes to kids. My wife doesn't. How does your wife feel about it?

God of Thunder

My wife has to take occasional trips out of town on business and I get the same treatment from friends and family.

And yes, it bugs the hell out of me.

You'd think by their comments that I'm confused by every day endeavors such as tying my shoes and making toast.

Granted, I'm in the same boat as f6twister in that I do not take care of her all day, but neither does my wife. Our daughter (who is three) goes to day care most days.

I am an Eagle Scout. I have a college degree. I have a job that involves me fixing computers. I think I can handle watching a three-year-old for a few days.

Besides the above I help take care of her 100% of the time I am home.


What pisses me off the most, is the people who offer the help do not off the same help when my wife could use it. Case in point, two weeks ago I took a road trip with a friend for 7 days. The only person to offer help was the same person who usually watches our daughter during the day.

The point to be learned is that taking care of a child that young by yourself can be a little demanding, so if your going to offer help, do it for both parties. Quit just assuming that the dad is an incompetent fool.



Now, the other side of this will be the experienced wives and mothers on this board that will post stories about how incompetent their other halves really are. When it come to diapers and bottles, you have to leave detailed instructions about which end they go to.

I'm aware there are dads like that out there, but don't judge us all based on a few misogynistic relics that still exist out there.

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robot_parade

Yeah, I've experienced the same thing, despite having been a 'single dad' for a couple of years. Any time I'm expected to watch the kids by myself for a period of time the response is 'wow!'. On the other hand, I also know and know of dads who actually "can't" (really "don't") take care of their kids by themselves for such a time. Often the people involved are (mostly, at least) only joking, but even if not, I don't really care.

ngdawg

I have friends who actually think their husbands are totally clueless and it pained me to witness their treatment of these men when they wanted to do something, whether it was just change a diaper or take the kid out to the store.
Now, granted, I would worry a bit when my own husband would 'take them off my hands', because we had different approaches, ie; when they were toddlers, I used wrist 'leashes', he refused to. But he's not stupid and certainly not incompetent. He didn't like it the first time I was going away and, in fact, had me take the kids with me, but that was more a situation of scheduling than anything-he was unwilling to change his work schedule to send the kids to school or be there when they got home.
But, incompetence knows no gender and neither does nurturing.
One friend of the spouse's was a volunteer fireman. Wife was at work or somewhere and his Plectron went off. He forgot about their newborn sleeping upstairs and ran out of the house....there's your 'incompetent dad' story..best I could do.

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Meditrina

I do not have any specific incompetent dad story about my husband. But I do find it very difficult to feel comfortable leaving the kids with my husband for any long periods of time. He does not help around the house much when I am home and easily loses his patience with the kids when he doesn't understand what they need. He spends all his time alone with them on the computer and I think they realize that. They do not like staying home with him. Perhaps if he helped more, I would feel more confident in his ability to take care of them in my absence. Perhaps if he was more involved, the kids would feel more comfortable being left with him.

I would hope that most fathers are not like my husband.

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SecretMethod70

One need only look at the media to see what many people think of a father's ability to parent: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317303/

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Willravel

Most people don't get that fathers can be as good at parenting as mothers. It's sexist. It's wrong. I've never been incompetent, and I'll give my life just to make sure that my daughter is happy.

Every time I see an "Aww shucks" anti father commercial on TV, I cringe. When I see the, "Oh Dad, you're suck a fucking clueless idiot" it pisses me off because it reinforces a stereotype. If we had commercials on TV featuring a group of all but one white friends and they all laugh at their black friend for eating Church's Chicken and watermelon, Al Sharpton would literally explode. The thing is, most societies have been patriarchal for a long time, and some still are, which has lead to an overcorrection. To me, there's no greater insult to a father than saying that fathers don't know what they're doing.

ngdawg

Good points, Willravel. Feeding into a stereotype is pervasive.
Family Guy
Simpsons
Everybody Loves Raymond
King of the Hill
Mr. Mom
Cheaper By the Dozen(Steve Martin version)
Kramer vs Kramer
King of Queens(not a dad, but still a buffoon)

I'm sure there are plenty more that feed into the notion that Dad( or men in general), can't get their shit together. Look back as far as the Honeymooners-man screws up, wife bails him out or becomes the voice of logic. In way too many of 'family shows' and movies such as Cheaper By the Dozen, even the kids are portrayed as having more sense than their fathers and the mothers are the picture of sanity and organization....they oughta visit my house some weekend!

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The_Jazz

According to Hollywood, we're all idiots.

I don't necessarily disagree. I know I am.

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Jinn

It's infuriating, but then again we're men. We have an unearned privilege, and we're the oppressors, not the oppressed. We're not allowed to complain about something discriminatory against us - after all, the serious discrimination only happens to women and minorities.

That was completely sarcastic, but I truly that believe (a) it sucks, and I don't like to be discriminated against but (b) I have no hope for it to change, because unlike other groups we're not seen as ones who can complain about how society describes us.

I'm not a father, but I know that someone insulting my ability to do so would be absolutely unacceptable.

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mixedmedia

Not to mention all the stereotypes about wives that are portrayed in the media...including the stereotype of the wife who doesn't trust her husband's judgement. It swings both ways, you know.

That said, in my own experience, with my first husband (with whom I had two kids) I seemed to have the child-rearing thing more in hand than he did. *shrug* I dunno...it's not that I didn't or wouldn't trust him to care for their basic needs or would ever ask someone to look in on them if I were away (which I never was), it's just that he always seemed to turn to me for the final word on most things.

Plus, I always had the sneaking suspicion he understood that, if I were around, I would always take the lead on issues with the kids and he could chill and not take responsibility. And I have a sneaking suspicion that that's not uncommon.

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SecretMethod70

Oh I don't doubt that this is the case most of the time. The thing is, I think it's the case because we allow it to be the case. When a kid is 14 and wants to earn money, what do they do around the neighborhood? If it's a girl, she's encouraged to babysit. If it's a boy, he's encouraged to do something like mow lawns. Just one example.

I think if we, as a culture, put more effort towards teaching boys to also care for children, more fathers would not only be interested in it, but not be so far behind their wives in knowing what to do.

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cj2112

I'm a full time single dad and have been for almost 10 years now, I have two kids. They were 21 mo's and 4 y.o. when my ex and I split up. I have had sole custody of them the entire time. My children are happy, well behaved, and reasonably healthy....enough said.

ngdawg

That's an evolutionary process that will take decades to accomplish. Think about how and when your own parents were raised. June Cleaver come to mind? Dad worked outside the home, mom stayed home, maybe getting a part time job during school hours for 'grocery money'. Clear definitions of what each was 'supposed' to do and the idea, whether or not it was taught or simply implied, becomes set into the next generation's head, albeit with a 'I won't be like that' thought. I know it took years to change the mindset of my own spouse, who'd ask if his shirts were washed(the machinations of a washer are too complicated?) or wake me up when the babies cried(can't hold a bottle? Don't know which end to stick a diaper on?). This occured because he grew up with it. But he married someone who played football with her dad, whose father was the one to tuck us in at night, who got involved as a father with his kids. And, while my mother was more June Cleaver than Yoko Ono, she expected the cooperation that comes with being a parent. And not having a dad around growing up, my father was just more than happy to do his fair share.

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SecretMethod70

I think perhaps you misunderstood my post, because my point was essentially what you're saying. People grow up being taught particular roles, and part of that is that males are not generally taught to play a role in child-rearing. It's only mildly different now than it was 50 years ago. Nonetheless, because it is so doesn't mean it should be so. This is the kind of thing that takes active work to combat social standards. These are the kinds of things that go back to the earliest moments of childhood, when parents buy their girl dolls and their boy trucks. There is a lot of unintentional conditioning that goes on which could be minimized by encouraging a wider variety of play.

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mixedmedia

My mom was a hippie and always worked outside of the house. And to be absolutely honest about my dad, who I love very much, he'd have preferred a June Cleaver. Needless to say their marriage didn't last.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

SecretMethod70

Sadly, once someone is old enough to have children, it's nearly impossible to change their learned perceptions regarding the role of a husband and wife

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Charlatan

I changed this perception by living against type everyday.

Nobody questions my ability to be a competent father.

The fact is, many Dads *are* clueless and like it that way. Of course, the big secret is that there are women who are like this as well.

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ngdawg

And they should be beaten!!!


Sorry, SM...I was both agreeing and misreading a bit.
Some cultures are enlightened to the point of not assigning gender-based parenting roles; unfortunately there are more that do not and as we become a nation of more citizens from these more ancient cultures, the notions we think should occur may in fact, take longer to do so.
An interesting observation: I see men in the store, pushing a stroller or carrying a baby, maybe walking with a child, but there's always the mom with them. The only men shopping alone with their kids are the ones whose kids are older, 9 or 10 or beyond and 99% of the time, the kid's a boy. Maybe once a month one might come in alone with a child under two. But day or night, weekdays and weekends, moms will shop alone with any kid at any age.

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savvypup

My husband often gets the same remarks. Ironically, I think our daughter much prefers the time with him over me and I tend to agree.

Just because he's more fun and not so practical as what I am, people automatically assume he's got NO IDEA of what he's doing.

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ciao bella!

snowy

The couple I work for are an interesting pair--she is the career-minded one, and he is the house husband (who just also happens to have a job). I regard them both equally, meaning that I tell the kids to go easy on Mom or Dad if just Mom or Dad is taking care of them, because taking care of two kids by yourself when you're used to having assistance can be REALLY overwhelming--especially if there are other things going on, like holidays or special events or illness.

I would say that's why most people underestimate the ability of dads to parent effectively--society is used to dads who are breadwinners, and don't spend much time one-on-one with their children. I would guess that most people who regard dads as incompetent are actually worried that the dad might be overwhelmed by all the little things one has to do to take care of children, and what pests little kids can actually be.

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f6twister

At least I'm not alone. I'm not sure why, but I somehow forgot that what is portrayed on TV tends to be taken as reality. I never thought I would be grouped in with Homer Simpson on my parenting skills. Now I just have to hope that they were all just following the common perception and don't think that I am incompetent.

She noticed the same thing. If she feels the same way, she doesn't let on. We talked about it before she left and she voiced her confidence in my abilities. She was talking to my mom a couple of days before she left and told her that she was making me out to be incompetent. She denied implying that.

My kids are 3 and 1 1/2. They can sometimes be a lot to handle when you are alone. And I will admit, there are things my wife knows that I would probably have to write down to remember. Stuff like what size clothes they wore at each age and the number of teeth they each have or are getting and where they are. However, I don't believe that not knowing things off the top of my head makes me a less qualified parent then my wife.

I don't think it would have bothered me so much had it been one or two people but when both families and the neighbor are making comments, it really makes me wonder what they think of me.

__________________
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. Calvin

abaya

That would piss me off, too... I say offer BOTH moms and dads help with the kids, since quite possible BOTH could be bumbling and at a loss for how to deal with the kids on their own. I sure as hell don't think I'll have a clue about how to raise kids when it comes time for that, and I could use all the help I can get... and the same goes for ktspktsp. Equal opportunity cluelessness, please!

Now, this I find completely and totally intolerable. Yet I admit that this has been one of my fears for raising children, that it would not be a job of equal leadership (even if the responsibility of following through is equal)... but I would hope that if either I or ktspktsp started "chilling" and not taking the lead to feed (short of breastfeeding, lol), clean, transport, tuck in, and come up with activities for the kids... one of us would call the other's bullshit within a very short period of time. We do the same with housework... anytime it gets out of balance, we correct it and things go back to pretty much 50-50. It's like what SM said earlier... these situations becomes what they are, only if we allow them to become that way. Situations involving kids/housework are not set in stone unless we allow them (whether passively or actively) to be.

The real issue is, what happens if one or both parents start working overtime a lot? How to divide that evenly, without gender bias (e.g. expecting the woman to make more career sacrifices than the man) and without abandoning the children at home or spending thousands on a full-time nanny?

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

basmoq

My wife has never stayed home with our son for an extended period, she has always worked. I, on the other hand, spent a year at home with my son, so no one gives me any shit. I also had a lot of little cousins that I used to care for. I wish some people would offer me help like I'm an idiot, I'd take them up on it to get out for a bit

Now back on subject, it is really a stupid stereotype, that is pervasive because I am avoided within a ten foot radius at the playground I take my son to. It seems to get better with age, I was completely ignored and avoided when he was an infant, but as he has gotten older, I guess the women feel it's ok for a guy to take a toddler to the park, because his wife will probably be at home to make us dinner and care for him the rest of the night?

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JustJess

Funny... my dad did more of the cooking, and before I was old enough for school, he didn't work and mom did (she had been the one to stay home for several years and was "done"). So I spent a couple years with LOTS of one-on-one dad time, I think from 3-5 years of age. Plus, they BOTH fixed stuff around the house, and built things, and cooked, and all that. They were both teachers after the AF and thought it'd be fun to have a farm, so we did.

After my dad died, my mom had to work more and my sister, being oldest, did step in the most to take care of me. I think my bro was just too young. But from that point on.. my mom was mom AND dad. She taught me to cook and how to put up drywall and bought me girly clothes and taught me to drive stick shift.

This is what I envision good parenting to be. Wow. After all y'all's comments, I feel pretty damned good about my parents. I know that should we have kids... Q is not a stereotyped guy. When we watched my nephew for a week alone, I took the time off work because this was MY idea.. but the minute Q got home, he took over entertaining and helping so that I could relax, and always tucked the nephew in. When I cook, he cleans. He's a bit more guy-style-clueless about some of the cleaning things I think are important, but I still think we're pretty equal on the stereotypical roles.

That being said... my brother in law does get the help offers etc and he takes them - I don't think because he can't handle two kids, but because he's a bit lazy about it. And doesn't think of things like... baths every day, etc. Yet I don't think they are living in strictly stereotyped roles...

Bah. I'm blathering.

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abaya

Now, this is very interesting. Here in Iceland, our apartment looks over a playground that belongs to the whole development. And guess what... the majority of the parents who are out there with their kids are DADS. I see very few moms out there, for whatever reason.

Granted, one of the great things about Iceland is that they require paternity leave as well as maternity leave, and it's equal amounts for both parents. 3 months for the mom, 3 months for the dad, and 3 months for them to split as they like. Compared to... what, 10 weeks for the mom, and that's it?... in the US. I think dads have a much more positive image of caretaking in Iceland, simply because the law requires it and they DO it, and everyone knows that.

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

f6twister

I didn't think about it when I started this post but this is also something I have experienced. When my wife takes the kids to the park by herself, she tells me about some of the people she met and talked to. I've taken them to the park by myself and along with my wife and I'm treated as if my picture is posted at the entrance with the word pedophile underneath. If someone looks at me, it is to give a quick smile as they move their kid to another end of the park.

10 weeks? I don't remember exactly how it works at the federal level but where I live, in places that employ more than 50 people, each parent gets 6 weeks of leave for child birth (unless they work at the same place. Then it is 6 weeks total between both of them). Abaya, is the time off where you are paid leave?

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A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. Calvin

basmoq

wow, you guys get time off for maternity leave? I've never heard of such a thing, I had to work right through my wife's pregnancy and childbirth. I had to quit my job to get to stay home with our son...

What really annoys me about the playground situation is that the dad's are so afraid of being treated as a pedophile, that they don't even make real attempts to talk with the other dads. We do say hi and make very very small talk, but that's it, nothing more. We certainly don't come home with a phone number and play-date for our kids. What makes the situation worse for me personally is that my father is a convicted child molester (read that as evil bastard), and I'm super sensitive about the whole subject. Being treated like I've done something wrong just because I'm a guy gets me a little upset.

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Willravel

bas, I'm sure you're a great father. If someone wants to become a sheep and call the police because they see a good father at a park, then I hope they would be locked up in a classroom and be taught how to think for one's self and to manage unreasonable fear.

I've gotten the look a few times, and I don't appreciate it one bit. I take a small measure of solace in the fact that my kid or kids will grow up with an understanding of the world and how to master it, and their kid or kids will grow up knowing how to be controlled through fear. In other words, my kids will be running their kids some day.

analog

It's because you lack vagina. Therefore, you cannot take care of children.

Of course, that's not true, but it's a popular opinion among other (usually female) parents, busy-bodies, and nosy people.

(Also, the "examples" of stupid dads on TV is WAY more about them being male, white and stupid, and not male and a bad parent. This is because we all have carte blanche to make fun of white males.)

ngdawg

I only make fun of them when they try to dance
"White boy in da house!!"

I wouldn't say TV makes them bad parents, just dumb ones, yea. Always 'meaning well', but fucking up the works. Not fair, not real, and not intelligent, nor is it original. And, try as Cosby did, sometimes they had him doing some really dumb shit too. Clare, though? Never....

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StanT

My wife and I split up parenting 50/50, though there are some things that I did and some that she did. I never did figure out newborns, I liked em a lot better when they could tell me what their problem was.

Playground time was nearly always mine, it gave my wife some time to herself. Yes, moms at the playground treated me like I had the plague, even with 2 girls in tow. Of course, I'm the one that brought the wd40 to the playground, so the merry-go-round went extra fast. I also brought silicone spray so you could catch air on the slides. The more adventurous kids eventually followed my daughters around.

Daniel_

I still get it even having been a single parent for over a year.

It's cultural.

Still, it means that I get kudos for pulling my weight, as if I've learned brain surgery in my lunch hour.

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

flat5

..

Janie

Perhaps "the look" you get at the playground is more anger and mistrust at you, the male, intruding on an inherently female activity? I know some females get angry that men take over, so to speak, female things, and the argument they use is "It isn't enough they get to do everything else, but now they're doing our things as well!" Which is complete and utter BS. You want equality, lady, you live with it :P /endrant

Most likely it isn't fear of pedophilia specifically, but just fear of the different. I'm sure when segregation was done away with, white mommies looked quite suspiciously on black mommies in the playground... excuse me I meant caucasian mommies and african-american mommies.

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Invalid Comfort

I had the same experience, but I'll be damned if I'll do the same to my children. Feelings aside, it wasn't right of my mother to assume that my dad was the who was supposed to "teach" me to be a man. Around puberty my mother and I started fighting hardcore(duh) because I felt neglected and un-heard. Even being a single mother, she wasn't aware that it was her job to assume both roles. I can't hold that against her. My father on the other hard, had more of a "let him be" style, but that could've been attributed to my attention whore of a step-mother and their children together. I'll never know. Sometimes I wish things were different, but my reality is my reality. Now that I know things are ok, I don't have to make the same mistakes. Things won't change until we break the cycle.

I'm not a parent myself. Hearing about the segregation on the playground astounded me. Gender roles are what they are, roles. Breaking free and being a person and a parent is something I look forward too.

abaya

Whoa, missed this question awhile back... might as well answer it now... Yeah, the time off here (both maternal and paternal) is paid leave, 3 months for each parent and then 3 months to split between the two as they wish. They are even talking about lengthening it to 12 months (it's currently 9 total). Yes, this is a great country in which to have a baby. NINE MONTHS PAID LEAVE, including fathers! I don't see why every country isn't like this... seems to be a primarily Scandinavian model.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran