Willravel

HAHAHAH Yeah I was playing jenga last night thinking to myself, "I can win this if I just put a lit match towards the middle olf the structure. It would collapse in seconds, into it's own footprint, at free fall speeds!" I lost, needless to say.

stevo

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Dilbert1234567

It's thoughts like that make me give up, believe what you want, I don't care anymore, you stopped looking for answers when you can't discern the difference from a structure made from solid blocks of static, non malleable (relative to the forces involved in a jenga tower) wood, and a nearly hollow tower made of dynamic, malleable steel (relative to the forces involved in a tower of this magnitude and the impacts from the planes). There is no parallel you can draw between the 2, except that they have a similar shape.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink; it’s time to put this one out to pasture.

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Ustwo

I did learn one thing in this thread at least.

I thought that they needed a lot of special tricks to make a building fall straight down in demolition, not thinking of the huge lateral forces it would require to make something so massive move off its base. While we think of these buildings as solid structures, as if they were a bar of stone, its better to think of them more like sandcastles, unable to support itself in any direction but straight down.

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Willravel

The jenga comment was obviously a joke, not unlike the bird running into a chimney statement. It was intended to simply ammuse, not to be used as an apt comparison. I've never confused the structure of a skyscraper with that of a solid object.

fastom

Speaking of huge lateral forces... if them walls were bending in and that caused the collapse then just why did stuff going flying out the sides with pretty good velocity as it started to collapse?

I suppose it's a little late for the experiment but i think if you leaned one of the WTC towers over you could go till it'd be hitting the surrounding buildings and still wouldn't have broken apart. Kind of like a Leaning Tower of Manhattan. Not sure if you could lay it on it's side, but maybe, these weren't built out of coat hangers.

Sticky

It was actually about four years until the first tower was completed and tennants began to move in (1966 - 1970)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center)

I don't think that is fast or slow. if you look up buildings built around the same time with similar height the building times are similar. WTC is a little longer but that is probably related to it being a multi-tower complex rather than just one building.


As an interesting aside, according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petronas_towers), it took three years to build the Petronas towers. This was of course much more recent. The interesting thing however was the that each tower was built by a different construction company. It was kind of a competition to see who could get their tower up faster.

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Seaver

Walls beding in as stresses warp the metal supports/joints. Stuff flying out because entire floors pancaking within a second displacing LOTS of air. You're grasping at straws.

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Willravel

Tonight I had a fun time with a haloween jack-o-lantern. I hollowed out a nice big pumpkin. I soaked a few rolls of toilet paper in kerosene overnight. So I dropped in a roll at a time and lit them up. It was incerdible. The flames rose 6' into the air, and all the little kids that stopped by were amazed. Each roll takes about 45 minutes to an hour. 2 rolls later, and the pumpkin is still standing strong. It's warm to the touch, but I could easily pick it up. Just for shits and giggles, I threw in a road flare for about 15 minutes. Man, it looked cool. The inside of the pumpkin is charred, but it's still standing strong.

Frankly, I don't kow how comparisons go between the twin towers and the pumpkin that could, but I figured that this thread is usually depressing. It could use some holiday cheer. A pumpkin with a 6' flame for 45 minutes is something that made me smile. I'll post some pics (and maybe a vid) later. Happy Haloween, all!

fastom

And here i had my suit layed out on the edge of the bed awaiting word on funeral arrangments for this topic.
It's back!

Remember Will, the towers were not built of something indestructible like pumpkins... every wonder why the tiles on the space shuttle are orange?

No, no, no... the towers were built out of lead solder as our colleague will attest as soon as he gets back with his pillowcase full of candy.

biznatch

I like your festive spirit, will, and I'm definitely with you here. I like that we can set these sad things aside for a minute. Happy Halloween to you, and to the TFP!

samcol

People say 'why aren't government workers and air traffic controllers going public if it was an inside job?' Well, several have but it's not covered in the mainstream. There have been 2 cia agents, 2 former bush administration members, and many fire fighters and police officers who have said 9/11 was an inside job. Now this flight controller says it too.

Willravel

Excellent article. I'm glad that some brave people are able to speak out about their knowledge of what happened. I still hold out hope that we can put the puzzle together eventually.

fastom

How about the Underwriters Lab guy? He clears up some of the silly fire melting steel issue.

http://911review.com/articles/ryan/letter.html

pai mei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U_GISl3aAA&eurl=
Here you can see the beginning of the myth

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Ourcrazymodern?

Anything burns if it gets hot enough.
What happened on 9-11 was that perverts gained access to tools significant enough to do what they wanted them to do.
If they'd created their own tools it would've still been wrong.

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pai mei

Norad can track the smallest object that flyes, it is made to track thousands of nuclear missles coming in and separate the fake ones from the real ones.
In the year 2000 there were 60 civilian planes that went off their course, all were intercepted by fighter planes in less than 20 minutes.
This is standard procedure in case of a plane which goes other way than it is supposed to
No orders need to be given to intercept it, no decisions, standard manual rules. Orders need to be given to shoot it down not to intercept.
On 9/11 4 planes fly undisturbed , not even one was intercepted ?
Videos :

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=9%2F11

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Dilbert1234567

well, your just wrong. several jets were sent to intercept the hijacked planes, however, none arrived in time, furthermore, even if they had, there was nothing they could do. Orders do need to be given to intercept. ATC has to dial NORAD and tell them there is a problem. after flight 11 was suspected of being hijacked at 8:37 am, 2 F-15's were set to battle stations, however, the transponders on the hijacked planes were disabled. making it difficult to distinguish which plane they were looking for between the other 4500 planes in the skies that morning. In 2000, all the planes that were intercepted had there transponders on, making it easy to find them. the hijacked planes were not easy to find, therefor they were not intercepted.

please do some research before posting.

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fastom

Dil
Do some research on that on your own, those "interceptions" were a joke, if that half hearted effort is the best the government can do perhaps the whole military needs to be disbanded and let shopping mall security take over.

Cynthetiq

really? if it is that simple that they can track the smallest objects and planes with disabled transponders, then why can't they stop drug planes? Based on your logic they should know and track each and every plane that is up in the sky 100%.

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Dilbert1234567

how were they a joke, how do you suggest, in your infinite wisdom to intercept a plane going 500 mph, turn the sirens on and ask them to pull over?

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Willravel

According to all public records, the fighters did not reach the planes by a long shot, so your question really isn't relevant.

Let's look at the time line:
- Between 8:14 and 8:20 AM, EST, American Airlines Flight 11 goes off course, something that is carefully monitored and is reported.
- 8:20 AM EST, American Airlines Flight 11 transponder signal stops.

At this point, as a part of normal response, fighters should have been sent. I'm sure we're all aware that Otis Air Force Base is less than 7 minutes from Manhattan by an F-15, so it would not have been difficult. I'm sure we're all aware that there is an Air Defense Zone just off shore of the entire Atlantic Coast. This zone is under constant patrol.

- 8:24:38 AM EST, John Ohonowski, the head pilot of American Airlines Flight 11, activated his talk button and Boston Air Traffic Controllers could clearly hear a hijacker say, "We have some planes. Just be quiet and you will be okay. We are returning to the airport. Nobody move."

- 8:25 AM EST, Boston Air Traffic Control contacted at least two other air traffic control centers that a hijack was in progress with American Airlines Flight 11, and, supposedly, they notified NORAD (as is procedure in this case).

Now normally, in a hijacking situation, would have called upon the 102nd Fighter Wing at Otis and two planes would have been in the air no later than 8:32 AM EST. The planes would have had at least 14 minutes to reach the WTC before Flight 11, which is twice the time they need. Of course we know there was no interception at all.

- 8:39 AM EST, Flight 11 flies over Indian Point Nuclear Power Stations. In case you were wondering, this would be the most logical place for a terrorist attack in the whole of the US, even more important than the White House and the Pentagon because of the potential death toll.

- 8:40 AM EST, The FAA notifies NORAD of American Airlines Flight 11's hijacking. This has been confirmed by NORAD and is included in the 9/11 Commission.

- 8:43 AM EST, The FAA notifies NORAD that United Airlines Flight 175 has been hijacked. Again, this is confirmed by NORAD.

- 8:36 AM EST, NORAD orders the 102nd Fighter Wing to scramble two F-15s. NORAD, by their own account, paused for 6 minutes before notifying Otis.

- 8:46:26 AM EST, American Airlines Flight 11 impacts the North corner of the North Tower (WTC 1) between the 94th and 98th floors flying at an approximate speed of 480-490 mph.

- 8:46 AM EST, United Airlines Flight 175 transponder shuts off.

- 8:47 AM EST, NORAD is informed of the first attack.

- 8:50 AM EST, 5:50 AM PST, Rich Miles, a manager of United Airlines Chicago system operations center, receives a call from a mechanic at an airline maintenance center in San Francisco that takes in-flight calls from flight attendants about minutia. The mechanic says that a female flight attendant from United Airlines Flight 175 just called and said, "Oh my god, the crew has been killed; a flight attendant has been stabbed. We've been hijacked."

- 8:52 AM EST, According to sources, the F-15s have left by this point. This is the last known information on the scrambled fighters. We don't know where they went (not NYC or DC, obviously).

- 8:55 AM EST, fake call by Barbara Olson.

- 8:56 AM EST, American Airlines Flight 77 transponder switches off, and it goes off course.

- 8:57 AM EST, The FAA formally notified the military about the final resting place of American Airlines Flight 11. Apparently, they didn't know before this point.

- 9:02 AM EST, United Airlines Flight 175 impacts the South side of the South Tower (WTC 2) between the 78th and 84th floors at a little over 500 mph. Most of the plane, including both engines and large sections of the fuselage and wings eject from the North side of the building and are found as much as six blocks away.

To clarify, the F-15s, with a top speed of a top speed of 1875+ mph, a mere 7 minutes from Manhattan, had left about 26 minutes before this impact and still had not arrived. This suggests that they were only going at maybe 20% their maximum speed. I guess there wasn't a hurry.

- 9:30 AM EST Two or three F-16s take off from Langley Air Force Base and head towards NYC. Moments after takeoff, the Secret Service contacted the planes and had them redirect to Washington D.C. for the past 31 minutes, American Airlines Flight 77 had been headed towards Washington D.C.

- 9:37 AM EST, 40 minutes after losing contact, American Airlines Flight 77 impacts the side of the Pentagon where there are renovations going on and is unoccupied, poking a very small hole and leaving behind no evidence of wings or a tail.

According to NORAD, at the moment of impact at the Pentagon, the F-16s were still 105 miles (12 minutes) away. An F-16 can travel at over 1500 mph. This means that the F-16s had to have been traveling at 14.3% their top speed to reach the nation's capitol.


I hope this helps.

Dilbert1234567

It helps a great deal; your source needs to learn to fact check.

First, before 9/11 jets were not allowed super sonic speeds to intercept.
Top speed ~700 mph, not 1500.

Going off course is not carefully monitored, it is only carefully monitored over the coast line and out at sea, to track smugglers. Between the 1989 and 9/11 all except 1 intercept was off the cost of the US, they all had there transponders on and were easily identified by radar because of the low amount of traffic in the area, most of these planes were drug smugglers, or suspected drug smugglers. Finally before 9/11 planes were not left armed on the runway, there was no needed, any plane that was sent to intercept had to be loaded first. There was ample time to arm them before any threat, ie some foreign power, could make it.

At 8:24, flight 11 said some suspicious stuff, the flight controller contacted his supervisor, at 8:37 the supervisor contacted norad. 2 F-15’s were sent to armed and prepped for flight, but did not have a location to go to. At 8:46, the plane hit the WTC.

They had 9 minutes to sort through 4500 blips, and find the 1 that did not have its transponder on. There was no computer system in place to automate it; it had to be done manually. 9 minutes to sort through 4500 objects. Give me a break it can’t be done.

But my question is relevant, it is extremely relevant. The was no perceived rush to intercept the planes, they were commercial flights, unarmed, and up until that point, no one had ever used a civilian plane as a weapon, all the military jets had to do was to fallow them and try to make contact. In the past, all intercepts did was follow the plane until it landed, an attempt to make contact if contact was lost.

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Willravel

"We're facing the largest attack on American soil since Pearl Harbor, but don't go too fast to stop it". An exception to that rule (which was only sometimes observed) is as easy as a few words from NORAD.
Irrelevant. These planes had transponders, then the transponders shut off. Also, they were aware that the planes were hijacked.
They didn't have a location to go? They knew the approximate heading because the flight controller gave it to his or her supervisor who gave it to NORAD.
Wrong. They had 14 minutes to go from Otis to NYC. That would have been easy, as the flight controller said it was headed towards NYC.
You're already forgetting that NORAD had run drills about planes being used as weapons so recently before 9/11? Comon. The Pentagon knew about it, NORAD knew about it, the Air Force knew about it. The FAA even knew about it.

Dilbert1234567

Hind site is 20/20. At the time it was nothing big until they started impacting buildings. You seem to think NORAD and all these other organizations are some super computer, capable of operating quickly and efficiently, they are not, and they are bloated bureaucracies. We are talking about making split second decisions with dire consequences; we are talking about shooting down a commercial jet because it was hijacked, if they had shot all the planes down, you'd be complaining that there was no probable cause to shoot them down.

Before 9/11 the rules stated that a controller had to go through multiple layers of both the FAA and the DOD before any action is taken. The regulations are to blame.

The transponders were shut off, making it impossible to distinguish from the other 4500 planes except by going though them one by one, there was no easy way to do it. And they only had 9 minutes to do it. The person tracing flight 11 that morning when the transponder was shut off was tracking 15 planes as well, to get a view of the radar, he had to go up a flight of stairs. The displays were on different floors, ok, lets think about this, we have 2 screens, one with 14 dots, one with 15, they are on different floors, find the missing dot, by the way, they are all moving, ready, go. It can’t be done, not in 9 minutes.

There was a massive communications break down, things happened to fast. They did not have an approximate heading or location, they could have gotten it, with time, but they did not have enough time. They thought they had more time, they thought it was a standard hijacking, where demands are made, and they have time to negotiate, not that they would plow the planes into buildings.

It was 9 minutes, but even with 14 minutes, it is impossible to pick one blip out of 4500, it just can't be done.

Even if they had drills, they still did not think it could happen, and once it was known to be happening, it was too late. When normal criminals take hostages, the cops don’t just bust in shooting, they wait it out until they know the hostages are going to be killed, the cops would rather wait it out until the time is right it minimize civilian casualties rather then risk an assault. The same is true here.

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Willravel

Ah, but there was 51 minutes between the impact of Flight 11 into the North Tower and the supposed impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon. 51 minutes isn't enough?

Also, you said that they could only go 700 mph, yes? Well that's still enough time to get there with time to spare.
In all 4 cases, the transponders were shut off after the planes were heading in the directions of their targets. It's not hard at all to figure out speed and trejectory in order to located the planes. If I can do it, and you can do it, and a 7th grader can do it, why couldn't NORAD, the FAA, the Air Force, or anyone else? Even with them not knowing for sure, they had good indicators.
They F-15s were ordered to NYC and the F-16s were ordered to DC. They knew where they were going, they just dragged their feet for some reason. The reason they dragged their feet is unknown.
That's a rather big assumption. When you run drills, you prepare for the real life situation. This was the real life situation. It was not an alien situation to anyone, NORAD, the FAA, the Air Force, the Pentagon, etc.

Ch'i

So NORAD, the DOD and FAA are completely incompetent. Gotcha.

Dilbert1234567

No its not enough. As you know flight 77 doubled back and with out its transponder active it would be extremely hard to track. Meanwhile the planes launched were mistakenly sent to intercept flight 11, not flight 77, 11 already had crashed. At 9:32, Dulles picked up an inbound plane (flight 77) and when they realized it was heading towards Washington, the fighters were ordered to return to DC at top speed “I don’t care how many windows you break” the commander said giving authorization to break the sound barrier. 5 minutes later, flight 77 impacted the pentagon; however the jets were 150 mile east.

At the time, the fighters were several hundred miles away, and when they were given the order to intercept, they had 5 minutes before impact.

Wrong, in 2 cases they were on target, flight 93 is unknown, and flight 77 double backed after the transponder was disabled. It is hard to determine speed, trajectory of the planes. No I can’t do it, you can’t do it, and no way can a 7th grader do it.

They dragged there feet because they were not sure where they were. They followed procedures.


bingo. singularly, they were fine, together, everything broke down during 9/11, communication was lacking and could not respond to a fast developing threat.

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Cynthetiq

i have no issues with that... Americans have lost the edge of doing things the best, most professional, and greatest.

Just look around at the people you work with, people who serve you, people who do services for you... we don't get the quality of work we used to. worker apathy rules at the moment.

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ASU2003

The first plane crashing into the tower was unavoidable, but the second tower and pentagon might have been preventable. Flight 93 'may' have been shot down.

I would have expected the planes to play defense around NYC, Boston, DC, Baltimore and Philly right after the first plane hit the tower. Any plane that was flying off course and too low would be dealt with.

samcol

This vido is something else if it's indeed true. This is a video of the BBC reporting in a live feed (some 20 min premature) that building 7 collapsed while it's still standing in the background. If this is all accurate, then it just further proves prior knowledge and a total psyop from the intelligence agencies and media.

The video is on this page along with a write up about it. http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles...7building7.htm

Regardless if this is true or not, what would reporting the collapse 20 min early mean exactly?

Willravel

The point was that the Capitol is to be protected in the instance of attack, no matter what. The official policy is to have planes in the air around DC in the event of an attack. Flight 77's transponder switched off over a half hour before the F-16s took off. I have to wonder why they would simply ignore protocol.
Ah, not the point. The fighters were headed towards NYC. The order to intercept would not have been relevant until the jets were a few miles out. They should have reached the city with much time to spare, and with simple radar they could have intercepted the plane(s) before they were even over a populated area. They dragged their feet en route to NYC, and that is the problem.
I enjoy how you say "wrong", then your next 7 words agree with me. It warms my cockles. Both planes en route to NYC were headed towards Manhattan before their transponders were shut off. Again, you, I, or a 7th grader can calculate location by factoring in speed and trajectory. It's basic geometry. Also, Flight 77 didn't double back before but after the transponder shut off. It was all in the minute of 8:56 AM EST.
"Fly to New York City" isn't clear enough, I guess. What order would you have given in order to communicate a need form them to fly to New York City?

pai mei

The truth about 9/11 has come out
Here is the movie check minute 14
http://www.esnips.com/doc/47ae2fd7-0...lding7Collapse

The story is here
http://digg.com/politics/BBC_Reporte...Before_It_Fell

It's in plain view for all to see, WTC 7 still stands, it is visible behind the reporter, but on screen they say it has fallen, then they "lose the connection to New York , technical dificulties" ...

http://www.mediafire.com/?5j2yjmycyty - download

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Cynthetiq

Ummm... I recall that news sources all have various reports on that same day. I recall some local stations stating the 7 collapsed already when it was still standing. In the days of having instant up to the moment statments, this is no different.

When the ballplayer small plane crashed into the Upper Eastside recently, some said it was a helicopter, some said it was a plane, some changed back and forth every 5 minutes.

that does not in my mind provide anything for conspiracy but rather BAD journalism.

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samcol

I don't recall any of the claims you are making. Please post links or references.

What you are missing is this is just a fraction of the 'bad journalism' on 9/11. Every news report that didn't fit the official story has been forgoten or spun so many times no one can figure it out. I tend to believe live instant new stories and footage rather than the stories the government puts out months and years later.

Cynthetiq

There's no links to my memories of the day. I live and work in NYC. I remember the day quite well.

Just like the day that the small plane slammed into the apartment building my collegues and I and flipped from channel to channel to see the differences of the newscasts, comparing everything from feeds, chyron crawl, information and accuracy.

I cannot tell you which ones were claiming that building 7 collapsed before it collapsed, but again there were many news outlets that made that claim incorrectly.

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Dilbert1234567

it was not known to be an attack. it was a hijacking, not an attack, not until they started crashing into buildings, and then it takes people to put 2 and 2 together and figure out that its an organized attack, not a hijacking gone wrong.

actually no, they were heading east over the pacific, as per standard operational orders. until the target is declared, they fly over the pacific to not clog the airways over the US. there was 5 minutes between the order to intercept and the plane impacting, the jets headed at there best speed back to new york but did not make it in time.

no they don't agree with you, you said all 4, i said 2, 2 does not equal 4, there for you were wrong. but i am glad to hear your cockles are warm. and again, you are over simplifying things, tracking a plane based off of one vector, and its a bad idea to try. just the atmospheric effects will make that vector inaccurate after a few minutes, but worse yet, if the plane changed direction, by guessing at its supposed location could have, and would have in 2 instances, lead the fighters way off course. it is silly to assume that a hijacked plane will stay on course. and since there was no perceived danger it was best to wait until all the facts were known.


if i was in their position at the time, I'd go with, hold out of the way at low speed's until we find them, then intercept them and follow them until we know more about what they want.

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pai mei

How can it be bad journalism predicting the future, how do they know it will collapse ? The video is live, the building is there, why does she say it has collapsed ? And also gives the details, then the video is cut because of "technical difficulties" :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...60649180677572

It just shows that they had the story prepared, but BBC got the timing wrong, resulting in "news from the future"

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Dilbert1234567

you ever play telephone? case closed.

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ASU2003

I remember the airplane vs. helicopter argument that day. The media people keep trying to get the scoop on each other and don't always report the truth.

It would be a stretch to say the media was involved in the cover-up, and knew that this was going to happen ahead of time. They were rushed, and didn't have access, the people they went up to and questioned at ground zero probably were shell shocked. There is absolutely no reason to tell the media if this was a inside conspiracy.

Interesting coincidence, but I'm 95% sure that it was just a misinformed journalist.