Ustwo

If the WTC 'bombing' was an 'investment' lets get that cleared up.

Are the insurance companies willing accomplaces?

Do they join the flight crews, airlines, ground crews, controll tower, familes of the people on the flights, demolition experts, spin doctors, the people on the 'flights', Osama Bin Ladin, NIST, several members of the armed forces, and others who would need to be 'in on it' or 'elminated' to make these theories even begin to hold water?

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Dilbert1234567

the yellow word of god is right... will was answering a hypothetical question with a hypothetical answer, will does not nesisarily beilve what he said, i was just asking for a counter...

will what do you think of our explination of the passport so far.

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fastom

The passport wasn't on a desk on the 14th floor, it was "theoretically" in the plane that hit the building and burst into "2500 degree" flames... that melted the aluminum into cascading puddles and turned the steel girders into goo. There's a huge difference between that and 70th floor faxes or Windows on the World menus that were in parts of the building not burning.

If a passport was in a bag or the mythical hijackers pocket how do you suppose it got to where it was found. Logic says it couldn't happen so add that to the long list of really curious coincidences.

Cynthetiq

and the bound hands that were not singed?

there are lots of things that survive plane crashes with fireballs, flight 800 to name one, along with the one above Queens just 2 months after 9/11 had objects that survived fireballs.

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Ustwo

See all that crap, guess what much of that crap was. Plane parts, building parts, people parts, luggage, passports, dilbert cartoons from cubicals, etc. Are you trolling or do you really not understand anything in physics? Seriously.

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Willravel

The passport was one that belonged to one of the terrorists, Satam Al Suqami (not Atta, a common mistake). The passport was in such good condition that they were able to see the picture of the man and read his name clearly. The core of the North Tower (WTC 1), the tower that Satam Al Suqami's plant hit, absorbed almost all of the airplane. The plane hit nearly the exact center of the building heading straight on. The only part of the plane that exited the building was the landing gear that landed near West St.

In the WTC 2, South Tower crash, the plane did not hit in a central location and because of this landing gear, and engine and part of the fuseloge were found on the top of WTC 5 and a few blocks away near the corner of Church and Park.

The reason I am very skeptical about the passport should be clear. No luggage from the plane, be it carry on or stowed away, was recovered. Nothing. Not an iPod, not a Samsonite bag, not a ticket. Nothing. And yet, depiste being in a horrific crash, and seeing temperatures that we can't even agree on (certianally hot enough to burn paper, I sure we can agree), this passport survived unharmed. The passport should have been inside of some luggage, a pocket; somewhere other than being out in the open. The passport was found inside no container, though. We also do not know the identity of the person who found the passport, as it is classified. Please feel free to call the FBI to confirm. The passport has not been seen by any members of the AP. The story was covered by ABC on 9/12/01, though it has been subsequently removed from the website. Luckly, it has been cashed by another website.

Dilbert1234567

Your logic is flawed. The plane was ripped apart on impact, it is highly likely that parts flew out the other side, we have video evidence, and parts found in the street that say that is a fact. It is possible that among the things that flew out was a carry-on owned by the terrorist.

As for the 'mythical' hijackers:
You really must start reading my post, i already showed you that the terrorist did board the plane:
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics...screening3.jpg

Just because the evidence does not support you, does not mean you can ignore it.

More on the passport for you will:
http://www.911myths.com/html/passport_recovered.html

It’s a good read, not only was the passport found, and anonymously given to a law official, they did not leave a name, either planted evidence, or, in a hurry to get the hell out of there... Many other things survived, like 2 letters, which some one picked up and mailed, they belonged to some one on the plane, and survived the impacts.

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Willravel

Actually that was a myth about the mail surviving. I'm still looking (does anyone have a nyt.com account?), but I've read that they had to make a correction.
[QUOTE=What does it add to the story?[/QUOTE]
Just so we're clear, basically no evidence has been released linking the suspected terrorists listed by the FBI. The video above is of such low quality that I actually recognize a friend of mine, Omid, on the right. FYI, Omid is still alive! So what would a passport prove? Well, it would prove that Satam Al Suqami was on the plane.

The picture of the ground covered with paper? Well the WTC Towers were office buildings. Do you think they had paper in them?

Dilbert1234567

Huh? So what your saying is, even though I have people saying they received a letter some one found in the wreckage, you’re calling them liars, please back that up.

huh, I give you a picture of the terrorist going through security, and all you can say is it looks like some guy you know, so it cant be the. Don’t you realize that they check the man against the passport picture; they would have noticed if it was some one other then the person in the photo. I don’t get you, and you can ignore this evidence with out a second thought?

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Willravel

Yes, I'm looking for the info, like I said.
The blurry picture of a man who could be one of the terrorists is hardly strong evidence. This is clear to me because the picture could easily pass for someone I know. How many other people could that picture pass for?

It's weak evidence.

Dilbert1234567

What I am saying is that the person who walked through those gates, had a passport with his picture on it, the screeners had to check the picture against the person. Unless everyone who checks ID in the place was in the conspiracy...

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Willravel

Did you ever sneak into a club when you were underaged? If those places get caught, they get like a $40,000 fine, and yet I was able to get in using my friend's ID. We really look nothing alike at all, just brown hair and brow eyes, but I got in numerous times. How is that possible? Well, a picture that is an inch across isn't super-reliable, and these people look at IDs all day long (just as was the case with the alledged hijacker).

fastom

With the severe nature of such a crime you can bet the perpetrators went to some great lengths to plan it, whether you belive it was some Muslim students or Dubya and his cronies. Planting phony evidence is a pretty simple thing.
On this "bound hands" thing, you mean tied together? Who's to say that's from the plane, maybe a worker in the WTC did find the explosives and got caught? Maybe some office S&M? I'm glad i didn't have to look at those pictures, sounds pretty grim.

Ustwo

Come on will I'm waiting.

Are the insurance companies in on it too?

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Cynthetiq

I guess you only look where you want to look and see what you want to see, any google of "bound hands" comes up with plenty.

from snopes.com
from cooperativeresearch.org

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Dilbert1234567

Well, it turns out the Boston Globe was on the ball that morning. They got a flight manifest from AA, and made a nice pretty graphic too:

http://graphics.boston.com/news/pack...1_manifest.gif

What do we have, all the suspected terrorist are on the list, in the correct seat, don’t you think if they were not on the manifest they received, they’d cry foul? Or do we add the Boston Globe to the list of conspirators now too.

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Willravel

You're doing a lot of good research, Dilbert, something that the Boston Globe should try doing. Look at the graphic. Look at the names of the suspected terrorists. Guess how many of them are still alive?

Waleed M. Alshehri, Wail M. Alshehri, and Abdulaziz Alomari are all still alive as of today. So not only did a passport survive the crash, but these men did too. Were they in the debris flying out the window? Did they fall into a giant truck hauling pillows, in some odd cartoonish coincedence? Doubtful.

Now I must ask you: if the Boston Globe is found to be severly lacking in the investigative department, so much so that they are completly wrong about 3/5 of the terrorists on Flight 11, is it possible that other newspapers and media outlets are wrong aswell? Is it possible that they simply took the government's word as gospel and didn't ask the right questions?

Dilbert1234567

well first, this is a flight manifest, not a list of who was on the plane, just who was signed up, second, I’m sure there are 50, maybe 100 Waleed M. Alshehri in the world, I know of 5 people who share my given name, and 1 that has the same middle name as me as well. Is it possible that the people you are quoting are just as mistaken by another of the same name? How do they 'know' they are still alive? I can find no evidence that they are, just people saying they are.

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Cynthetiq

and these men, have appeared on Al Jazzera or other media outlet to show that they are alive and well?

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fastom

Dil has trouble but i can often tell when somebody is still alive.

Seems there has been a lot of mismatching between the original lists and republished ones. The numbers kept changing.

If this were a less serious crime like ordinary murder and the judge was reviewing evidence that shows the number of victims changing and some are still alive... hmmm... perhaps that's part of the plan. Any prosecution would result in a mistrial.

Look at the date on this article... just 12 days after...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm

The last line... "FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged on Thursday that the identity of several of the suicide hijackers is in doubt."

But i guess they decided "Close enough, let's go with that".

Cynthetiq

Hmmm seems like we've moved from steel beams to passports/papers to people who may or may not have been hijackers without any kind of agreement or even agreement to disagree.

will, i thought you wanted to direct this a bit more orderly, or was that a different 9/11 thread?

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stevo

real quick..........HAS ANYONE EVER HEARD OF IDENTITY THEFT?????

that is all.

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Sticky

I am not saying I believe any of what I am about to write but that it is a possibility that has not been mentioned with regards to the passport.


Maybe there is a conspiracy and there isn't a conspiracy.

Suppose (1) their is no conspiracy behind the actual destruction of the towers. Please, just suppose that was the case for a second.

Suppose (2) there was a conspiracy, however, to get an answer to the American Public, to put faces on the murderers and create an enemy, and maybe even to provide just cause for the invasion of Afganistan to go after Bin Laden. Please, just suppose that was also the case for a second.

If these were true then it is possible that the passport was placed on the scene after the fact by the conspirators behind the 2nd supposition above.

This theory separates the crashing of the planes and destruction of the towers from the finding of the passport in good shape in the rubble.

Again I am not saying that any of these suppositions are true I am just saying that it is possible that both sides of the discussion are partly correct.

What I am saying is that whether the passport is there due to conspiracy or not, that has nothing to do with the way the buildings came down.
What I am also saying is that there maybe differing levels of conspiracy that people in this discussion are willing to believe exist.

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Willravel

Fatsom's BBC atrticle covers it quite well. These are the men implicated in the attacks, and these men are still alive. Several of them HAVE gone on TV in the ME, and have been identified by friends. What this suggests is there was identity theft, and we still have absolutely no idea who supposedly hijacked the planes. What does this imply? Well, it implies that a great deal of evidence surround the attack is suspect, specifically the intel on the motives and capabilities of the supposed hijackers. Even the links to OBL would have to be in question if we had no idea who the hijackers were.

"But Will, you brilliant man, Osama admitted to planning the attacks! I saw him speaking it in Arabic on CNN, being translated by some british guy!!"
Basically, yes. Think about that, though. At first, no one took responsibility, then after a few weeks OBL takes responsibility? Also, do you think he might have a motive to lie? I certianally think so. Why would a known terrorist want to take advantage of the ultimate vehicle for his propoganda?

That was the thread in Politics which I started. I didn't start the "what happened on 9/11" thread here in Paranoia. Here in Paranoia, I imagine we are allowed to make bigger leaps and such.

Dilbert1234567

Ok, he is alive, that is evidence saying that a man with that name is alive... still does not mean that another man on the flight that hijacked it, did not have the same name, or claimed to have the same name as Stevo points out.

Stolen identity anyone?

I’m all for saying the government is incompetent, I fully believe they were, and still are incompetent, they may have gotten some of the names wrong. Still does not change the fact that planes were hijacked and crashed into the towers, which were the sole cause of the towers collapse.

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Cynthetiq

I thought I was in the thread you were trying to guide, my apologies. I was under this impression because I recall you being upset that people didn't want to stay the course of your dialogue. was that this thread or the other?

thanks for the clarification.

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Willravel

Of course the identity was stolen, and of course the government at large is incompetent. Please understand that the dicussion about the passport, then later the identity theft, had nothing to do with my agruments about the physics of the collapses. I hope that's clear. I was trying to point out that the intel from the government, in it's entirity, should be taken with a grain of salt.

Most of the stuff they release is only partially true, and is lined with BS to suit their needs. Because of that whenever we hear stuff like, "The money trail leads back to Osama", but we know the funding was Saudi (something that most everyone on the conspiracy and non-conspiracy sides agree on), we can say, "Silly government, propoganda's for kids." The idea is that no one should take the government's word at face value.

Dilbert1234567

I do believe there are a lot of questions revolving the US invading Iraq, I firmly believe some levels of our government knew they did not have a credible argument for invasion, but by selectively showing the evidence, we went anyways. I still think it is more plausible, that some one in the intelligence screwed it up, either IDing the wrong man, or being fooled by fake ID's and counter intelligence.

yes I do think some of the intel may be wrong, but most is right, I think that some in our intelligence community either were fooled by fake id's (and aliases) or that they confused 2 people with the same name, and gathered intel on both people thinking they were one in the same.

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Willravel

Hahaha! Yes, that was the other one. I had been trying to get the topic of 9/11 into Politics for about a year, and I got the green light from Tec, Uber, and some other mods. That thread was to be 100% scientific, asking and answering questions that were provable and had nothing to do with conjecture or rumor or speculation. That was a very tedious task, and the thread has since fallen into obscurity (thanks in no small part to the continuing efforts of certian board members who are unable to keep their insults to themselves). I did manage to keep the thread from being moved to Paranoia, though, and I figured that was a small victory. I spent half the time in that thread asking questions and following science, and the other half trying desperatly to keep those who shall remain nameless from destroying the thread through flaming and personal attacks.

I think I just spilled my burrito on my hat. Damn it.

Dilbert1234567

and it should be taken with a grain of salt, however, when we have several independent organizations consisting of physics majors, construction majors and other people who would have a valid viewpoint on the collapse, saying it could have happened; and on the other side we have a handful of people saying it can’t, some of which have degrees, most of which do not. I have to go with the side that has more credible people. There has been plenty of independent research into this by credible organizations, who did full scale fire test to estimate the heat and temperature, who ran computer simulations to see the effects on the building and saw the structural failure the fire caused to say it did not happen.

I don’t trust most things this administration says, or the mainstream media for that matter. has anyone seem who bad Afghanistan is getting in the news, no, cause its not being mention on the news, its all going to hell but not being reported on. With everything I post, I make sure there are several other sources that agree with it, not just some guy with an opinion and web space.

Back this administration, they are very careful not to outright lie, although they do some times, most of what they say is a stretch of the truth. I’d give examples, but I don’t think any one here will disagree with me, if you do, let me know and I’ll find some.

I have not read up on the money connection, what I do know is that OBL is wealthy, his family is wealthy, but they have disowned him. As for Saudi connection, I don’t know.

i tried to keep that one on track too, but uh... yeah people who will remain nameless stopped that one dead...
food goes in mouth, not in hat

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Cynthetiq

napkins, napkins on the lap to catch the burrito and not the hat... catch baseballs with the hat not burritos!

I do find this intereseting...

"the government is incompetent" but they are competent enough to "pull off a conspiracy like 9/11"

that just dawned on me...

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Dilbert1234567

Just think back to water gate, they could not even pull of a simple breaking and entering. i know, different set of people, but same idea.

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Willravel

Well I was careful to say "the government at large", but I do see what you mean. Think fo this, though. The war on Iraq was supported by many people in the beginning, and only really started to lose it's core support when it was clear we wern't going to win. After all that is when the inforamtion about their being no links to 9/11 and the al Queda, and no WMDs came to light. Pressure from the public forced the information to the surface. I don't see that happening on the same scale with 9/11. Even if I am wrong about a possible larger conspiracy, there were still massive mistakes that lead to 9/11, and the 9/11 Commission was a fucking joke. People deserve to know the whole truth, and they deserve closure. The only real pressure right now on the government for 9/11 truth is from guys like me; conspiracy theorists. The government, instead of simply answering the questions, has taken it upon themselves to simply call us all nuts and be done with it. Independant organizations have tried to point out flaws, like NIST, but they themselves have screwed up on their explainations (I'll get to them when I get home, and I have access to my notes).

Getting back to the point: I don't know who is responsible. It's obviously not going to be the whole government. It could be small and specific areas. Underwriters Labs, the ones who did the actual research for the NIST report, have a vested interest in pleasing the government who gives grants and contracts out to organizations that do them favors.

Dilbert1234567

It was not just the public, it was worldly, and forces with in our government too, and experts within the government saying there was more to the story.

Yes there were, but then again, the attacks were impossible to stop, would you have shot down the planes? The only way we can truly be safe is to give up all freedom, and live in a police state. Until that day we must live with risk, and understand that we live in a bit of danger everyday.

I don’t think it was a joke, please when you get home post some examples.


But its not only the NIST that did research, many other organizations have, and come to the same conclusions, and many other experts agree with these findings, if a building of that size should not fall straight down, don’t you think every physicist in the country would be calling it wrong? What do we see; just a hand full of people with out physics degree’s saying its wrong.

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Willravel

Most of the government officials that have joined the 9/11 truth movement have lost their jobs.
They wouldn't have been impossible if the course set by Clinton were kept.
Richard Clark was a very prominant name in the recent Wallace/Clinton interview. This man knew his shit, but as soon as Bush moved in, Clark was demoted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission
NIST and Popular Mechanics. Who else?

Also, many members of the 9/11 truth movement are scientists.

Dilbert1234567

cover-up... or get rid of the crack pots...

I’m not sure if it would have happened if Clinton was still in power, physically it could still happen people could hijack the planes and crash them, however, Clinton did a lot to bring the world together and make people like us. However under bush we lost allot of respect and pissed allot of people off. I do believe it could have happened, but I don’t know if it would or not. A crazy man who wants to kill, will kill, plane and simple, the government can’t be everywhere at every time.

Claims of bias within the commission
I hope that they can keep an impartial view on the issue, no one in America was untouched by 9/11 it is impossible to find some one impartial, some had conflicts of interest, the major ones were removed. A lot of the conflicts of interest were airline related, and I’m sure, the report came off friendly towards the airlines because of it, however, that does not affect the fact that the planes were hit by planes, and the planes brought them down.
Claims of lack of cooperation from the White House
I know there was resistance, there would be resistance under any administration, someone fucked up and this terrible event happened. They should have been more open, but this does not show guilt of a conspiracy, just that they are covering there asses.

Commissioners Suspected the Pentagon was Deceiving the Commission
Yup, they fucked up and this happened; now they have to explain how, but eventually they were subpoenaed and coughed up the info.

Claims that the investigation lacked adequate funds
Well it was given the funds they asked for, after some resistance, but they got the money they wanted.

Claims the commission was used for partisan purposes
I’m sure it was, by both sides. No cover-up, just crappy politics.

Claims the commission ignored or censored key government evidence
I agree that ignoring the previous evidence is wrong, but still all that evidence shows is that the terrorist did want to harm us.

Claims the commission ignored information regarding Able Danger
This is ‘he said she said’ the committee says he is not credible and has no evidence, he says the evidence was destroyed. This really can’t be answered, his evidence no longer exists, either it never did or it was destroyed. If there was no evidence, the committee was right to dismiss him.

Claims of gentle treatment of Rudy Giuliani
I think they should have grilled him harder, but really what could he have done, he runs the city, but on a disaster of that scale, he is not responsible for what happened.


Perdue University did some great simulations, there was a Japanese group that did one and several others, I’ll find some for you.

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fastom

C'mon he's still the President!

So we agree the government is a bunch of doofuses... errr doofi, and too damn stupid to pull off such a thing and that "intelligence community" is maybe a misnomer.

I doubt that the whole 9/11 thing would ever have happened if Bush wasn't in power.

I should clarify, i am not jumping to your side and believing in terrorists and fire weakened steel or such things.

Somebody obviously had to plan the attacks, if it wasn't the group of Saudi students then who?
What about stock trading beforehand?

In this picture...
http://911review.com/myth/imgs/eh_wtc4.jpg

... you can see the top several floors tilt over. What broke this up into tiny fragments? There isn't any weight on it. If it continued down like it's going it would have probably smashed just the one side of the building below and landed on it's side next to the rest of the rubble.

Dilbert1234567

For the put options:
http://www.911myths.com/html/put_options.html

American airlines was falling like a rock before then, many believed it would fall farther, therefore, they placed put options on it.

For the rotation:
the side that collapsed first stopped supporting the upper building, so it fell, since the upper stories were still whole, it rotated slightly, but the rest of the floors at the impact gave way, and the upper part smashed down, the rotation speed was minimal, and the speed down was much greater, that’s why it did not rotate very much at all. Further more, the upper floors broke because of the impact with the floors below the plane impact, the floors are designed to stay level, as the impacted on an angle, they are not designed to support that kind of load.

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Sticky

Bush was only inaugurated in January of 2001. The planning of theses attacks, whether you believe the conspiracy or not, pre-date the Bush II administration.

Also Clinton was inaugurated in January 1993 a month before the first WTC bombings.

Would it have happened if Clinton was still in Power?
You could say yes or you could say no. I just see no reason for saying no.

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Dilbert1234567

well after the attack on the USS Cole, Clinton wanted to attack back, but could not because the FBI and CIA would say for certain that it was OBL, if Clinton was still in power, and had hit OBL for the USS Cole bombing, maybe, just maybe it could have stopped the attacks, on the off chance that some of them were with him at the time of our reprisal. Things would be different though, if we still were hit, as soon as the CIA and FBI confirmed OBL we would have hit OBL in Afghanistan, quick and hard with missiles, and then gone in and removed OBL and the Taliban with troops.

I am pretty sure we still would have had 9/11, but there is a small chance we would not have. Fact is bush did nothing, he was given a plan from Clinton, which bush ignored that plan, and he sat on his hands and did nothing. This is one reason I think they stonewalled the investigation.

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