Punk.of.Ages

The other day a friend of mine and myself were discussing the difference between good manners and politeness.

It came about because I stated that I am not a polite person and he disagreed.

I feel that being polite is something that people do regardless of how they actually feel. Basically, not saying what they feel because it will be rude.

I never do that. I say what I feel regardless of consequence, but I am a very well mannered individual. I say please, I say thank you, and I treat people with respect as long as they don't disrespect me.

To me, manners are a courtesy of niceness afforded to those who are nice in kind.

So, I guess it's a pretty thin line between the two for me, but a strong one also.

I understand I may be playing a bit of a game of semantics here, but I'm curious as to what you all think about this...

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Jinn

I think there's absolutely a difference. I don't really mind poor manners, but being impolite is very offensive to me.

I guess that puts us in direct disagreement.

I really don't care whether someone does or doesn't say please, thank you, or whether their elbows are on the table when they're eating or not. Holding the door is nice, but I really wouldn't be offended either way.

I am offended, however, when someone thinks that it is acceptable to raise their voice above conversation volume in a public place, or thinks that is is OK to speak disrespectfully or even verbally attack me because that's how "they feel", as if their feelings allow them to ignore the fact that we're having a civil conversation. It seems to me that there are a dozen different ways to express your feelings politely, so I don't see why they can't take the time to tell me how they feel AND address me in a polite manner.

They still seem very closely linked, to the point that I kept wondering if I really was just describing two sides of being polite.

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Punk.of.Ages

I don't think we are in direct disagreement here Jinn. I think we just draw our lines differently. I think that raising your voice and speaking disrespectfully are examples of bad manners, not impoliteness.

I think, for me, it comes down to manners being a matter of respect and politeness being a matter of censorship. I'm not saying I unjustifiably yell at people or belittle them, I'm saying I speak my mind on all things. Though, on the manners side of things, I also listen to what's coming out of others' minds.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

UKking

Good Manners are employed by Polite people.

You could not rightly be considered polite while having bad manners.

The inverse is not true, I think; I could see where a well-mannered person might be impolite, or even cruel. Like hostile nobility.

A duel would be an example of a mannerly yet impolitic activity.

Ayashe

I have never considered the two separately before but I will give it a shot. I would probably say the opposite. Politeness to me would come naturally and relate directly to the situation. Put me at a table with some friends I will probably behave slightly differently and speak in a different way than I would with say, my grandparents. Neither forms of behavior would necessarily be more or less polite than the other, simply appropriate to the current setting. Though as far as censorship, I would say that we censor ourselves in these situations.

Manners to me would be the more forced issue. There are numerous guidelines imposed by our cultures and customs which tell us what is the "proper" way of doing things. Then again, when I view "manners" I equate it with the word proper.

That is my take be it wrong or right.

inBOIL

It appears to me that you're all discriminating between behaviors that offend you and behaviors that don't. I don't think that there's a difference between having good manners and being polite; the difference exists because you see some manners (e.g. elbows on the table) as silly, archaic rules, and other manners (e.g. talking loudly) as indicating civility and respect. This is all about which manners you think are important. Or, to put it more impersonally, which manners should be followed and which should not.

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jorgelito

Being polite is a part of having good manners. Something that is sorely lacking these days.

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snowy

Sometimes I find it's beneficial to look at the dictionary in situations like these. These definitions are abridged from the Oxford English Dictionary; if you are familiar with the OED, you will know why I abridged them. And sorry, no linkage to full definitions, as one needs access through an academic institution.

And the definition of polite that we are looking for, also from the OED:

As I see it, you can't have one without the other.

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mixedmedia

I think there's alot to be said for keeping your 'feelings' to yourself. Online, here, we have that freedom. People can be called on their bullshit and still keep face in a way that it's just plain rude to put someone through in 'real life.'

I still believe in tact and diplomacy.

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jewels

I like what snowy said. You can't have one without the other.

Good manners show respect. Being polite is being respectful. The rest is semantics.

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abaya

Yes, that's how I think of it, too. I think I've always been fairly polite person (at least to people other than my own parents--why is that?), in terms of how and what I speak to others... that's politeness, to me.

But as I've gotten older and started a household of my own, I feel much more conscious of the need for manners. I think it's because when I was younger, I could depend on my parents to scold me/remind me of "manners," or I would be "overlooked" for bad manners because I was young and it was my parents' fault if they didn't correct me.

As an adult, I am responsible for the way I show respect to others, and also responsible for how others view me as an example of how to behave (e.g. students, younger cousins, and eventually our own children). I feel quite strongly that I need to be familiar with social rules/expectations in whatever circles/culture I live in, and to do what I can to respect those. I can't blame a lack of manners on anyone but myself.

Here in Iceland, a lot of manners have to do with social visits and reciprocation... there are proper greetings/phrases when meeting people, and when invited to dinner, dress nicely and bring a gift (this is a standard to me), and try to reciprocate the invitation in some way, in the future. I am never going to be comfortable with these "manners," but I know that I need to at least attempt to honor them while I am here. That is part of being a polite person.

I guess some people might say that manners are overrated, and that they are "old-fashioned" and unnecessary. I disagree. I believe it is essential to human social interaction to show respect to others whenever possible, unless they have done something to lose your respect... and manners are a very basic, very easy and recognizable way to do that. It doesn't cost a whole lot--just an awareness of what's appropriate or not, for a given situation--but it pays off immensely, I've found.

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jorgelito

Lovely post here. Wow, awesome story, shows some real growth and catharsis. Nicely written too. I can relate.

I agree 100% with this, thank you.

Do you think this realization and growth allows you to understand and maybe appreciate your parents more?

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

abaya

Certainly, yes... at least, the child-raising aspects, and how much work they had to go through to inculcate basic manners in me (especially on the Thai side).

Then again, the strange thing is that as I grow older, I also see in my parents some lack of manners on their part (at times)... a lack of awareness over appropriate behavior, appropriate audience, etc. That is actually quite difficult for me to deal with, especially when I'm in the same social situation, because I can't exactly correct them. This may be more a matter of culture than anything, though (in the US, you would never notice these differences, except maybe between socioeconomic classes--but in Iceland, yes, some things are different).

I've also had conflicts of "manners" with ktspktsp at times, perhaps because he was raised with a different cultural context of manners... we bump heads about these kinds of things at times, but it also makes me realize that manners (for me) can be a source of insecurity. If I am not making the right gestures, then I feel very insecure and stressed about the social situation. For him, it's not such a big deal--and I have a hard time relaxing about those kinds of things.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

jorgelito

Ooh, good point. Culture is a big factor in how we perceive and execute good manners and politeness.

Good manners aren't supposed to make you feel insecure though. It's just a social convention and construct to aid in societal interaction. But I see what you mean, especially if there is a mixing of cultures. For example, I was nervous while I was in the Middle East because I didn't want to offend anyone by accident. Simple things like, should I shake hands, do I bow, do I look them in the eye, oh my God a woman quick turn away eventually gave way to common sense and I had a good time there without provoking an international incident.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

abaya

I would go so far as to say culture is EVERYTHING, in terms of how we perceive/execute those things. Manners are arbitrary; they are passed down to us by our parents, as a part of our culture. That's why you were nervous in the Middle East, whereas someone like ktspktsp might not even be aware of what you're nervous about, because he just *knows* how to do things there. It's why I'm nervous in Iceland, because this is essentially not the culture I was raised in... I came into it as an outsider, and I had to learn the ropes as an adult (which is what stressed me, since people are far less forgiving of adults being unmannered than they are of children).

It's good that "common sense" took over for you in the Middle East, but imagine if you had married into that family?... small conflicts can definitely erupt into more stressful events. I can't rely on common sense alone when dealing with a lifelong relationship with my in-laws (and neither can ktspktsp)!

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran