Strange Famous

The fact of the holocaust is proved by photographic evidence, records, eye witness accounts, survivor testimony, the physical evidence of corpses and of clothing, personal effects and even human hair (I think they found 7 tonnes in Auschwitz, I assume it was someone's job to pull it from the corpses to sell to wig makers) of the dead, official documents, the number of people missing... I could go on, but the fact that between 5.5 and 6.2 million Jews (depending on which deaths you count) were killed in a deliberate policy of mass murder by German and Eastern European state forces if clearly and provably true. For Mel Gibson's father to say that the Holocaust is "mostly, perhaps not all, but mostly a story" is false, ridicolous, and deeply offensive to many people.

On the other hand, the evidence we have for the execution of Jesus (or Yoshua Ben Josef as I believe He would have called himself) is a collection of holy books, written thousands of years - by people we know very little about. To question aspects of the way Jesus died, who he was, or even if he existed and was in fact a prophet of God or the son of God is clearly not the same as denying the Holocaust. The believe in Jesus as the son of God is based on faith, the belief in the holocaust is based on facts which we canverify and be sure of. That Jesus was the son of God, who was rejected by Jewish elders who organised his execution is only one possible truth - and if people say that portraying Jews as the murderers of Christ (I havent seen the movie, so I cant speak for whether it does ot not) is offensive to them, that is a very different thing from saying the holocaust didnt happen.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Mantus

Of course, in fact I believe that Bible to be mostly fiction, but that is not the point. The point is that about a billion people on this earth look up to that book. But I digress, you are right the cases are not all that similar and I wrote that for shock value more then anything else.

Yet my point is missed.

It should not matter that Bible holds the Hebrew priests partially responsible for the death of Jesus. They could have been worshiping the Greek pantheon for all I care. What is important is the message. Now there are two types of people in this world: those who read the bible and come away with the idea that even holly men can become corrupt; and those that come away with the idea that Jews killed Jesus.

The second group isn’t all that large. Yet I find it terribly ironic that this group of people who put so much emphasis on the race of a human being can be further divided into subgroups: the resists pigs and those that yell about anti-Semitism when they read the Bible.

Do you see my point now? Why aren’t Italian appealing that the movie is anti-Italian because Romans crucified Jesus? Why aren’t Germans offended when we put down Fascists? Why aren’t Russians in rage when we criticize communism? Because people that share a common ancestry are not all the same. Isn’t that the message?

sailor

Ill go see it. I think it will be a pretty powerful movie.

Strange Famous, I think it is irrelevant what Gibson's father said. Gibson's father isnt Gibson, and to condemn the film because someone completely unrelated to the film is an anti-semite isnt a good idea. Go see it and draw your own conclusions. If you dont like it, fair enough, but condemning it without seeing it because of one unrelated person's views isnt a good course of action.

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

Tophat665

Still, derivative and overrated, but better than Danielle Steel anyway.

Oh do lighten up and don't believe everything B'nai B'rith gets their breeches in a knot over. 50 years ago a massive chunk of Jewery got erased, and no jew ever wants that forgotten, and, frankly neither do I. Santayana was right about that. But the problem is that, as in any group, some folks take it too far and use any piddling excuse to draw attention to it. This ain't it.

I don't know why I'm even arguing this. I plan on not seeing it because I just don't feel like sitting through yet another telling of this story, no matter how well done. Everyone knows the ending(s) and there are no surprises.

Besides, if the Jews hadn't killed Jesus, we wouldn't be in this fix. (jk - very jk)

And here I thought Plan 9 had confused it with Snatch: "Who do you need a gun to protect you from? Zee Germans?"

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Plan9Senior

comedy gold

Lasereth

Roger Ebert gave it 4 stars.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert...passion24.html

He also notes that it is the most violent movie ever made, and "if anyone but Jesus Christ were on the cross, it would be rated NC-17."

I'll be seeing it.

-Lasereth

__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

silent_jay

With all the hype and controversy it will be top rated at the box office, and who cares if Gibson's dad happens to be anti-semetic, does this mean that Mel is? I think not , he said he wanted to shock people and I hope he does. I have absolutely no religious affiliation and have no intention of ever becoming religious but I will still see this movie, although I won't pay to see it i'll download it from Kazaa ya I don't like to pay for something I can get for free.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

brokenlies

how come no one really get's it ?

there are two people that killed Jesus Christ:

God, and Everyone else

God:
Matthew 26:39 "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Matthew 26:51-54 "Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

Everyone else:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Romans 3:20-26 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

Jesus died for everyones sins, so whether it was Jews, greeks, romans, chinese, mexican, european... whatever nationality, at whatever possible time it could have happend, he still would have died for the same reason.

silent_jay

I know why I don't get it because I've never read the bible and don't intend to, I take movies like this for what they are the directors interpretation of what happened.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Averett

I'm torn. I feel like I should see it. I'm Catholic but by no means am I religious. I haven't been to church for services in ages. But I think I should see it.

But I don't know if I could handle it. Generally I'm not a fan of violent movies, except when the violence is warrented (Saving Private Ryan etc.). I may wait to rent it, that way I can watch in installments.

__________________
Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.

Cardinal Syn

all i can possibly say is.

........................

viejo gringo

I just saw it--and I did not like it....

It did not tell me or show me anything that I had not heard for years of going to church....

all it showed was again mans inhuman treatment of another person.

The 30 minutes of flogging and brutality could have been reduced to a few minutes---the torn and riped flesh sent the message the first time...the rest was not needed...

The drab colors (not even the blood was red) and the subtitles--when they were shown, left a lot to be desired....

A good movie I would want to see again--this one did not make the grade.

As far as who was to blame for what--it just did not come through to me.....maybe if I was a religious schoular, I would have had some idea who all of these people were....they just reminded me of a lot of dumb uneducated idiots, looking for blood.

I am sure it will make an impact on some of the younger people who were born say around 1950, but for us older gereation we have already seen mans inhumanity to man at Aushwitz...it really isn't something we want to be reminded of again.

I'm glad HE said all I have to do is believe--not understand.

illesturban

i just got back from seeing this. And all I can say is...incredible. Such an overwhelming amount of emotions will flow through you when you see this movie. I don't think there was one dry eye in that theater including my own. It is SOOOOOOOOOO SOOOOOO graphic; unlike ANY other movie portraying the crucifixion of christ EVER. There were times when I had to close my eyes and there's one scene where Jesus gets scourged almost to DEATH and it's just... plain...unimaginary. I mean I went with a bunch of guys and a girl and ALL of us were crying up a storm; it's THAT emotional.

And Jewish people need to really just calm down. There is nothing "anti-semetic" in this movie, unless you count the truth. I really don't understand why they are in such an uproar over this movie; it does nothing to slander the Jews. But it might make you pissed off at what they did. But if Jews wanna be mad, for that matter white americans shoulda been in an uproar and pissed, protesting Amistad and Roots, and Germans shoulda been angry and protesting Schindler's List and The Pianist.

Basically y'all, go see this movie. Words can't describe how much you will be moved and personally affected by it.

illesturban

FIRST DAY TICKET SALES AT ESTIMATED $15-20 MILLION!

irateplatypus

viejo gringo: would you feel better if it showed you things that you hadn't heard in years of going to church?

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

slvrnblck

“There is no salvation for those outside the Church,” Gibson replied. “I believe it.”

Does this mean that since im Muslim I will go to hell? Someone explain this to me please. Ive been so lost lately, depressed really, trying to find out what my purpose on earth is, im in need of desperate soul searching.. I believe in god but I am "outside the church", Am I damned forever?

P.S Although im Muslim, I am not religous at all. I dont know the practices of any religion actually, but like I said, I believe there is one god, and religion is BS to me. Someone enlighten me on what I have to do to reach the gates of heaven.

brokenlies

slvrnblack : first of all, catholics have some skewed doctrine... but... let me show you some verses in the bible...

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Romans 3:21-26 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. "

all it takes is believing that you're a sinner (we all are), and believing that a man named Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, was born a man, the son of God, and died to save your sins. after that it's just spending time talking to God(praying), and listening to God (reading the bible).

slvrnblck

So if I dont believe in Jesus, I will go to hell? This doesnt really answer my question, or maybe it does and im to dumb to realize it. I give up, I need to find the truth myself somehow.

Cardinal Syn

I know you said your not a religious person slvrnblack. Even thou yer muslim.

Find what you believe in YERSELF. God is inside you, not what some church wants you to believe in. You are your own god and your own destiny. What lies beyond no one has a FUCKING clue about. And if they tell you they do. Their lieing.

Believe in yerself and your God that you said you believe in and you will reach paradise for yourself.

sailor

Several things. First, yes--according the the teachings of the bible, you will go to Hell. However, think of it this way: who is to say that the Christian religion is the right one? For all anyone knows, Islam, or Bhuddism, or any other religion could be the correct, "true" religion. No one knows. But to answer the question, yes--the Bible states that you must accept Jesus.

As for Cardinal Syn, for one who seems intent on saying that the church attemts to foist its ideas on others, you sure seem to be doing a bit of the same. Who says that your belief that there is no God is correct? I am not the most religious person in the world, and I certainly dont agree with much of what the Church says and does, but your statement is an opinion, just like that which the Church, or any religion believes for that matter. To try to pass off your opinion as more factual than anothers, when neither you nor the Church have any empirical evidence to base it on is no better than that which you slam organized religion for.

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

Mojo_PeiPei

Thats not entirely true. Jesus can be quoted in the bible as saying something along the lines of "I have others that are not of this flock, the kingdom of heaven is theirs."

Every religion says the samething. Like the Buddah said, the paths we all walk may be different, but they lead to the same place. If anyone tells you differently or thinks they know better is an idiot.

Anywho lets not turn this into an anti-christian/religion thread, if you want to do that go to the Philosophy forum.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

sailor

Yeah, Ill agree with that

I want to go see the movie quite badly. This weekend isnt going to happen, however. I have to pick a movie to go on a date to, and this sure as shit isnt a date movie

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

ARTelevision

From the NYT:
February 26, 2004
New Film May Harm Gibson's Career
By SHARON WAXMAN

OS ANGELES, Feb. 25 — Mel Gibson's provocative new film, "The Passion of the Christ," is making some of Hollywood's most prominent executives uncomfortable in ways that may damage Mr. Gibson's career.

Hollywood is a close-knit world, and friendships and social contact are critical in the making of deals and the casting of movies. Many of Hollywood's most prominent figures are also Jewish. So with a furor arising around the film, along with Mr. Gibson's reluctance to distance himself from his father, who calls the Holocaust mostly fiction, it is no surprise that Hollywood — Jewish and non-Jewish — has been talking about little else, at least when it's not talking about the Oscars.

Jeffrey Katzenberg and David Geffen, the principals of DreamWorks, have privately expressed anger over the film, said an executive close to the two men.

The chairmen of two other major studios said they would avoid working with Mr. Gibson because of "The Passion of the Christ" and the star's remarks surrounding its release.

Neither of the chairmen would speak for attribution, but as one explained: "It doesn't matter what I say. It'll matter what I do. I will do something. I won't hire him. I won't support anything he's part of. Personally that's all I can do."

The chairman said he was angry not just because of what he had read about the film and its portrayal of Jews in relation to the death of Jesus, but because of Mr. Gibson's remarks defending his father, Hutton Gibson. Last week in a radio interview the elder Mr. Gibson repeated his contention that the Holocaust was "all — maybe not all fiction — but most of it is." Asked about his father's Holocaust denial in an interview with Diane Sawyer on ABC, the movie star told her to "leave it alone."

The other studio chairman, whose family fled European anti-Semitism before the Holocaust, was less emphatic but said, "I think I can live without him." But others said there would be no lasting backlash against Mel Gibson. "If the movie works, I don't think it will hurt him," said John Lesher, an agent with Endeavor. "People here will work with the anti-Christ if he'll put butts in seats." Mr. Lesher added, "He put his own money where his mouth is. He invested in himself."

As Mr. Lesher implied, Hollywood is also a place of businesspeople, and Mr. Gibson is a proven movie star, popular with audiences. There are few actors with that kind of bankability, no matter their personal views. Mr. Gibson is also a capable director. So some of the initial reactions to his film may fade over time.

Mr. Gibson not only directed and helped write the $30 million film, but he also paid for it, including production and marketing costs, out of his own pocket, which Hollywood has filled.

As an actor and successful director, from "Mad Max" (1979) through "Lethal Weapon" (1987) and its sequels to the Oscar-winning "Braveheart" (1995), Mr. Gibson has long been a Hollywood pet. But he has also been known as a prankster and a self-confessed abuser of various substances. Many in the relentlessly secular movie industry see his recent religious conversion — he practices a traditionalist version of Roman Catholicism — as another form of addiction.

Last Friday the media billionaire Haim Saban, former owner of the Fox Family Channel, sent a concerned e-mail message to friends about Mr. Gibson and his father.

The message forwarded an article by the journalist Mitch Albom calling on Mr. Gibson to repudiate his father's denial of the Holocaust. Mr. Saban sent the article to, among others, Roger Ailes, who heads Fox News; Norman Pattiz, who runs the Westwood One radio network; and Michael R. Milken, the securities felon turned philanthropist.

Amid the daily dealings of Hollywood, the film and the star have been fodder for unfavorable gossip. Dustin Hoffman has talked to friends about what he called Mr. Gibson's "strangeness" during the ABC interview. The producer Mike Medavoy said Mr. Gibson's religious zealotry made him feel uncomfortable. Mr. Hoffman is Jewish; Mr. Medavoy is the child of Holocaust survivors.

"One question is, `What propelled him to make the movie about the passion of Christ?' " Mr. Medavoy said. "It makes me a little squeamish. What makes me squeamish about religion in general is that people think they have the answer: `I think my God is the right God.' How do you argue against that?"

But many non-Jews in Hollywood have also been unhappy about the religious divisions that the movie has exposed and could deepen. A public relations expert who usually works closely with Newmarket, which is distributing the film, said she declined to work on the film, though she is Roman Catholic. "This kind of thing tends to bring out the worst in people," she said, insisting that her name not be used.

The director David O. Russell, who described himself as areligious, said that although he had not seen the film, he was disturbed by the prospect that "The Passion" could feed anti-Semitism. "There are so many wonderfully provocative things about Jesus' life and death that challenge us to be better people," he said. "If it stirs anti-Semitism, then what a wasted opportunity."

Melisa Richter, a publicist who worked for one of the largest Christian movie production houses in the country, Cloud Ten Pictures, wrote in an e-mail message that the film "feeds into the culture of anti-Semitism that is out there, repeating it again and again in a popular format (the film medium), lacking vital historical context and background."

Several prominent people interviewed for this article said they were curious about the film but would not buy tickets to see it.

Still, some of Mr. Gibson's Jewish friends have been defending him and the movie. The producer Dean Devlin, who is Jewish, said, "It's a phenomenal movie about love and forgiveness, and I personally didn't find it anti-Semitic whatsoever."

Mr. Devlin said that he thought those in Hollywood who were angry would get over it. "I think it's a big issue today, as the movie is opening, but over time it will be seen as one of many beautiful renditions of the story," he said. "My hunch is this will pass, this film will be remembered as a beautiful film, and Mel will go back to making movies. That's my hope."

Alan Nierob, Mr. Gibson's publicist, is himself the child of Holocaust survivors. "I think Hollywood appreciates good art and will embrace the talent of a filmmaker," Mr. Nierob said. "I don't see a negative reaction."

...................................................
From every single thing I have seen about this, it occurs to me that Mel Gibson is an ultra-lightweight actor, director, producer, and thinker.

...................................................

'I'm not going to spend $9 just for a few
laughs'

-- CBS's Andy Rooney to Don Imus on
why he won't see PASSION OF CHRIST....

__________________
create evolution

sipsake

One of the best arguements I've had the priviledge to read is from a Jewish Rabbi here in my town who's opinion I greatly admire and who also happens to be the leader of the Memphis Ministers Association. I'll reproduce it here in hopes that it may help explain some of the trepidation those of the Jewish faith might feel on the release of this film.

What Should We Do About The Mel Gibson Movie?
Points To Keep in Mind (including an extended history lesson)
Rabbi Micah D. Greenstein, Temple Israel
February 29, 2004 ~ Adar 7, 5764

Remember that a Jew and Christian sitting next to each other in the theatre are, in essence, watching two different films. The Jew cringes at every negative portrayal of Jewish leaders or “the Jews.” He is also disturbed by the picture of a first-century Jew being beaten and bloodied on a Roman crucifix. The Christian sees an entirely different film. He watches God incarnate beaten and bloodied on a Roman crucifix, in fulfillment of the Christian understanding of Scripture. Everything else is secondary.

Our response should represent the very best of our own tradition by being a learning response. Do we understand the way in which the Gospels came into being in the decades after Jesus’ death? Can we describe the intra-Jewish dynamics of first-century Jewish life that led to the birth of Christianity? If not…zil g’mor! Go and learn! Knowing what the Passion narrative is and understanding what it means to Christians will help us maintain a healthy perspective on the Gospel literature. It will also strengthen our understanding of our own faith as Jews. For these reasons, if you choose to see this movie (and I’m not recommending that you do), it is tremendously important for Jews to study the Passion narrative.

Re-igniting anti-Semitic hatreds will most likely not be the consequence for those who
see this film, at least in the United States. I anticipate that believers the film will emphasize instead the evangelical theme, "He died for you/us," rather than "who killed Him?"

This is a Christian movie, reflecting the religious doctrine of at least some Christian movements. “The Passion” is not a Jewish move, and its “truth” is not a Jewish concern. Crucifixion was the means by which Romans terrorized thousands of Jews like Jesus. When the brutal Romans used violence and crucifixion to terrorize the Jewish population, Judaism’s response was, “we will not be like that and adopt your brutality. Our heroes will be learners in search of goodness, not sadistic soldiers committed to torture.”

We know from Josephus and other first century sources that Pontius Pilate was so brutal and ruthless, he was fired from his job for going overboard and butchering Samaritans. Any suggestion that Pilate was this sensitive man who was reluctant to kill Jesus and relented only on the wishes of the High Priest is dubious. We know that the high priest wasn’t even allowed to put on his clothes without Pilate’s approval. He couldn’t do anything in the Temple. Pilate killed locals indiscriminately and robbed the Temple treasury. The Jewish high priest Caiaphas served only at the pleasure of the Roman governor Pilate. Caiaphas did not control Pilate, as some parts of the movie suggest. Pilate controlled Caiaphas. Being faithful to history would mean telling it this way.

But maybe being faithful to history wasn’t Gibson’s purpose in making the movie. Maybe shocking people’s emotions through the violence and gore of Jesus’ suffering is his intention. Christian theology is not for rabbis like me to work out, it’s up to Christians to define who they are. I know that many Jews are frightened when they see a cross, but many Christians I know do not think of blood and gore when they see the cross, they think of victory over death, they think of love, they think of springtime, they think of salvation. They don’t think of slow asphyxiation. Bringing people to Christ by means of the electric chair or gruesome death is for Christians to debate, not Jews.

If Gibson wishes to bring people to his faith, as the website points to, that’s fine, but never at the expense of the sick twist. The sick twist is turning Jesus the Jew who was crucified brutally by Rome into Jesus the Christian who was handed over by bloodthirsty Jews to reluctant Romans. While Gibson says it doesn’t matter who killed Jesus, since he died for all our sins, he is ignoring what his portrayal of Caiaphas as repugnant and Pilate as being sensitive at times leads to. That sick twist has not only led to the deaths of millions of Jews as a result of the anti-Judaism in the gospels, it is now being picked up by the Arab world to the point where the most popular television show in Arab and Muslim media history is a 20-series television show like Dallas, only the theme is Jews, not Israel, but a worldwide bloodthirsty conspiracy of Jews, who kill adults and children, for their blood. This series was shown prime time throughout the Arab world around the dinner table. I didn’t know what to do with the footage from this lethal hatred that was aired less than 2 months ago throughout the Arab world. But when you look at this best-seller in the Muslim world after watching the Gospel According to Mel, you begin to understand the danger that sick twist can cause – even today.

Gibson focuses on the violence of Jesus' last 12 hours. The Gospels don’t dwell on it. The Gospels don’t obsess with violence. Gibson does. Why? This point reminds me of the Jewish master story, the redemption from slavery in Egypt and receiving the Torah at Mount Sinai. To get there, the plagues of boils, lice, and blood flooded Egypt. But the torah doesn’t dwell on it. The torah doesn’t obsess with the plagues. It doesn’t talk about the skin falling off from boils. Why? Because the message is that God wants the enslaved to be free, to move through the pain of slavery to redemption and accept the gift of torah. Jesus dies for the sins
of the world, he dies so that even the guilty can be free. That's the message as
Christians have taught me, the metaphor of dying to self and being reborn again,
not the visual scene of three layers of skin being ripped off and slow asphyxiation
on the cross.

My main wish was for Mel Gibson to have put the following tagline on his movie as an opening or closing quote, “For two thousand years, the story of Jesus’ death has served as an excuse for Christians to condemn Jews as “Christ killers,” to attack them, and to kill them. That is not what the story of Jesus is about, and that is not what this movie is about. We are all responsible for Jesus’ death, just as we are all our brothers keepers.” Gibson is a separatist, though. He doesn’t recognize the legitimacy of the 2nd Vatican Council or the Popes since the mid-1960s, so I doubt such a quote would appear in a religious film by him.

My other wish is that people keep in mind they are not watching history. They are watching Mel Gibson’s personal theology, and the theology of those who identify with Jesus’ slow suffering. The historical fact is that the gospels have been used as justification for the greatest crime in history – the death of one Jew becoming the pretext for the murder of millions more. Christian theology and understanding the attacks upon Jews in the gospels in their proper perspective are matters for Christians to work out, not Jews. Anti-semitism, and even the holocaust for that matter, have nothing to do with Judaism. They’re about what other people did to Jews.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, we have come so far since the days of Luther, and even since the pre-1965 theology espoused by Mel Gibson’s Traditionalist Church. The Memphis Ministers Association I am privileged to lead demonstrates that we can work together without sacrificing the particularities of our traditions. If the movie serves to bring us together – to share our fears as well as our hopes – then it will have done a good thing. As A.J. Levine says, “if we’re going to be passionate about anything, it should not be the film, but the shalom that discussions can bring among Christians and Jews.” My hope is that the heartfelt dialogue brought on by this film will lead to deeper concern for each other, and move us closer toward the Messianic Age of peace conceptualized and bequeathed to the world by Jewish tradition.

__________________
When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?"

Henry Rollins

illesturban

I'm gonna leave all the deep talk alone and just update on the box office figures...

Cynthetiq

damn.... 25 million out of his own pocket...

i just reached into mine and got some lint and a penny.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

sipsake

Yeah, but he's already made back half his investment and it hasn't even seen it's first weekend.

__________________
When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?"

Henry Rollins

Baldrick

I just came back from seeing this, and all I can say is wow... Just... Wow...

I am not Christian or Jewish at all, and this is still simply one of the most powerful film I have ever seen. I really can see how everyone will either REALLY love it (as I did), or REALLY hate it - no middle of the road on this one.

The theatre I went to was absolutely packed, and you could actually hear a great number of people crying and sobbing at many parts. And, I have never been to a movie where well over 75% of the people sat, unmoving, through every last word of the final credits. Everybody just sat there in stunned silence.

As for the crowd yelling "Gibson will never work in this town again", I think he just proved that he doesn't need the Hollywood establishment to create great movies. Besides, do you really think that when this film breaks $200 million at the box office, and given Mel's past track record, he won't have these so-called Hollywood Executive critics banging down his door? Like it or not, he just solidified himself even more as one of Hollywood's elite, and he'll be able to write his own cheque like never before.

Speaking of Gibson, I've always liked what he's done, but he is now easily one of my favorite filmmakers. I have nothing but respect for him, considering he was told at every step that this film could not be made. Yet, he had such incredible passion (no pun intended), he ignored them all and made the film he WANTED to, the way he felt it needed to be made. Like the movie or not, like Gibson or not, you have to respect someone who risks everything he/she has spent decades building up (respect, career, money, etc), to do what they feel they need to.

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You can be young only once, but you can be immature for the rest of your life...

Cardinal Syn

I never once said i didnt believe in god sailor. But you are right. It is my opinion. He was looking for some kind of answer. And it looks like your opinion was a better one :>

Thanks for contributing.

Carry on about the movie!

maximusveritas

How much of a risk was this for him? Even if the movie tanked, he'd still be a multi-millionaire. And there wasn't much chance of that, not with the masses out there hungry for another fix.

As far as the movie itself, I already know what to expect and not just because I read the book. All of Gibson's movies are the same, cheaply playing on the audience's emotions instead of trying to say something original.

Prophecy

I guess I'm the odd ball because the middle of the road is exactly where I am. I can't say I love, like, dislike or hate this film. Maybe it's just shock from seeing the movie about an hour ago, maybe not.

Either way this movie really had a strong effect on myself and the whole audience. This was only the second time I've seen everyone leave the theater in utter silence, the first being when I saw Schindler's List. The symbolism is ripe throught the film and it struck me on a level that I can't full understand. All I know is that this film is a true experience, for good or bad.

For those that can stomach the violence, this is a movie that you should see at least once.

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La Disciplina È La Mia Spada,
La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

redrum

I guess movies from now on must not contain a conflict, true or untrue because some group out there will claim it is biased against them

Its a true story, a small portion of the jewish community DID take part in the killing of Christ, like it or not, its the truth.

The world needs to grow the fuck up.

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illesturban

^ thank you. my thoughts exactly.

Chingal0

Excellent movie, but I can not figure out where all of the goddamn excitement is coming from. The Bible is a book. The Passion is a movie based off of the book. Big deal. Granted lots of people see it as otherwise, that is the basic premise.

The subtitles made the movie. If it were in english, it would have been bullshit. Anyone who can not follow the subtitles should be not watching the movie in the first place.

The violence was graphic, but not out of place. Not that I have seen many people scourged by the ol' cat o' nine tails recently, and neither have any of you, I find it hard for people to disagree with the level of violence in that scene. I suggest someone concoct a weapon like that and try it on your neighbor and see how fucking bloody it gets, then take pictures, post em and let the world decide. Until that happens, shut the fuck up.

I read this whole goddamn thread before posting, and I think that anyone who hasn't seen it for any reason, should. Steal some bastard kid's highschool ID and see it for 4 bucks, or better yet, steal his money and see it for free. It will be worth your time.

<3

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"Eventually I became too sexy for my gym membership fee."

Glad-I-Ate-Her

I saw this movie at Wednesday at 4pm. The theater was almost full.

What I have to say about the movie is "Wow." This movie is powerful on many different levels. My nerves were frazzeled when I walked out of the theater. When people walked out at the end, they were mostly stunned at what they had just seen. There was a huge line when we walked out.

The direction and the cinematagraphy were very good. The actors were very believable in their respective roles. The soundtrack was very moving.

Although some of the scenes were graphic, I believe it added to the movie. It portrayed the history of the brutality of the Roman empire. Remember that a form Roman's entertainment was to have people fight to the death. They throw enemies and Christians to the lions. Among other harsh and brutal things.

If you are not religious, this movie portrays the everyday life of the people of that era. You don't have to be Christian to see this very powerful and emotional movie.

If you are Christian, this movie will shake you down to your soul. Seeing how much Jesus suffered for us. How He died willingly to save our souls from going to Hell. This goes along way showing us redemption. I believe Mel Gibson made this movie as a wake up call to the Christians.

The only part of the movie I wish would have been longer was the ending. I'm not going to spoil it for anyone.

I believe that Mel Gibson took a huge risk in making this movie. It may have single handedly ended his career. He has made enough money that the only person he has to please is himself. And I believe he did it with this movie. How many actors or directors willing to take the risk in creating something they believe like he did?

In a way you can compare this movie with Schindler's list. You don't have to be Jewish to have this movie affect you. It also is a very powerful movie portraying a very unpleasant time in history. Remember if and when you do see The Passion, that the Roman's were torturing and killing the Jews like in the Holocaust. Also Jesus was a Jew.


Glad

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I'm "Glad I Ate Her" because the payback was worth it!!

filtherton

My pastor saw it and hated it. He said it was to gibson what battlefield earth was to travolta. He said it wasn't as accurate as he would have liked and focused more on the suffering of jesus as a means of redeeming humanity compared with the death of jesus being the redemption of humanity. Apparently there were some laughably overdramatic scenes with the devil(who according to said pastor is nowhere in that part of the bible).

I think it will be unfortunate if this movie becomes the de facto version of this story for lazy christians. Since from what i've heard many people say he clearly took liberties with what the bible actually says and made the movie to reflect his fringe catholic ideology.

SecretMethod70

I think historically displaying crucifixion, which did take place, is pretty warrented. Although, as some others have mentioned, it appears he has favored historical inaccuracies in the bible (such as the nails in the hands) over actual historical accuracy.

No, you will not go to Hell for not believing in Jesus. At least, that's not what the Catholic Church believes (ignore anything Mel Gibson has to say). To answer your question (although, admittedly, it doesn't pertain to this thread), from a Catholic standpoint, a person is perfectly capable of being "saved" while believing in a religion other than Christianity. You can think of it like a Venn diagram. The Catholic Church believes God's Truth is present in most all world religions, but the Catholic Church is the one that has the fullness of the Truth. So, if you picture the Truth of God as 3 circles which overlap at some points, different religions will lay somewhere in those circles containing some Truth, but Catholicism is located where all of the Truth converges together. I hope that was a clear answer to your question.

Only if you interpret the Bible literally which is the quickest and easiest way to bastardize its message IMO. The people of the time the Bible was written did not speak in literal terms and it's flat out ignorant really to attempt to apply our modern understandings of words to their ancient texts.

Sadly, I agree. Let's just say there's a reason Mel Gibson's brand of "catholicism" (intentionally in quotes) is not something officially accepted by the Catholic Church. Historically, from what I gather, this movie lacks much accuracy. The unfortunate thing is not that, but the fact that it's made in such a way that many people will look at it as a historical account rather than a metaphorical, interprative account. Was Jesus crucified? Sure. Was it as brutal as is portrayed? Most definitely. Was Pilate a hesitant player in the process? Hell no. As was mentioned before, Pilate was a ruthless dictator - so ruthless that even the Romans didn't like him. Histoprically speaking, Jesus was more than likely not crucified because the Jewish high priests didn't like him, but because the Romans saw him as a threat to the establishment. The Romans had a tight rule over the Jews, taking away their land and such - something the Jews barely understood the concept of since they considered themselves stewards of the land and not "owners" per se. The Romans saw Jesus as a threat in that he was uniting Jews together in support of one another, thus he was a threat to the Roman establishment and a risk to causing another uprising as had happened in the past. The Jewish high priests did take part in the crucifixion of Jesus because, frankly, they benefitted from working with the Romans and didn't want to see the current peace affected. Better to turn in one of their own than lose their positions from an uprising of many. Thus, the high priests didn't like Jesus either since he basically "caused trouble." But, and I didn't see the movie, from what I understand it portrays it as if the Romans were reluctant - almost obeying the wills of the high priests - and that there was a small "mob" of Jews that wanted to see Jesus crucified. Similarly inaccurate is the horrible portrayal of the mob yelling "crucify him!" That more than likely never occured. The Bible gets a bit of an anti-semitical bent from the time in which it was written. When still under Roman rule, does it make sense to write about how the Romans were brutal and ruthless in killing the person you worship, or is it easier to play towards people's resentment at the high priests anyways and focus more on their active role? The point is, ultimately, as far as the Bible's concerned it doesn't matter WHO killed Jesus, so long as they were humans. As others have pointed out, the more important point is that Jesus died for the sake of all humanity. Although, I fear many people will come out of this movie having viewed it as historically accurate and think that Jesus was killed by a "mob" Jews along with the high priests basically strong-arming a "reluctant" Pilate. That's about as far from historically accurate as you can get concerning the question of "who" killed Jesus.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Strange Famous

Rather than repost, I will just restate.

That the Holocaust was committed by the German state is a proveable fact.

That Jewish leaders played a part in the death of a man called Jesus who was the son of God is a matter of faith, it is not supported by any really credible historical evidence.

I think, the reason some people complain about this movie is that it makes some unintelligent people accept "the Jews murdered Jesus" as a historical fact.

And the problem I have with Hutton Gibson - in relation to this film - is that Mel Gibson has not condemned him. Mel Gibson maybe cant help if his father is a holocaust denier, but he can make it clear that he hates him. If my father denied the reality of the holocaust, made statements like "it is mostly, maybe not all, but mostly a story" I would despise him, I would publically ridicule him and condemn, tell the whole world how I ashamed I was to be related to such a person.

And what is Mel Gibson's response? He loves his father and wont speak against him. I have a problem who wont speak out against someone saying things so offensive when they have the chance to, and I dont care to buy a movie that helps someone like Gibson get rich.

Personally, I wouldnt want to protest against this movie, I just dont want to watch it and support someone like Mel Gibson, who from what I have read about the situation with his father, is a contemptable person to me.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Chingal0

Very nicely put SecretMethod70.

In the movie, it seemed that Pilate was reluctant to have Jesus crucified, and this seemd due to his wife or whoever not wanting to see Jesus die because he was 'holy'. He ordered a beating, but that was not sufficiend as the 'angry mob' kept chanting crucifixion. Now the Roman guards aptly carried out both orders with the utmost pleasure, constantly whipping etc. until they were at Golgotha. I can understand people who will take this movie and think that it is historically accurate, but anyone who has read the bible (for spiritual gain or mere pleasure) will know that the movie falls true to the book, but not necessairily history. Either way, the movie was moving on a humanitarian level, as I do not believe in Jesus as being the son of god, rather just a leader of a Jewish uprising. I do not deny the fact that Jesus lived and died the way that is told, but the son of god.. c'mon.

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pinklily

I have cautiously made a date to see it next Tuesday, although I hear it is extremely graphic, and I looking forward to seeing how the event is portrayed. I find it strange that congregations have gone to see it, even though their churches do not agree with the way the film portrays things. I can't say whether the man was the son of God or not, but I think it will be moving for me no matter what. I think it's been too long since I've seen a film that made me think.