Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free.... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

maleficent · 08-27-2005, 02:21 PM

... and then what..

This was in the local newspaper yesterday...

A year later, Somalis to be refugees again

Quote:

Family says it can't afford life in the city

By ERIC MOSKOWITZ
In the Kakuma Refugee Camp in Kenya, Mohamed Mohamed harbored no illusions about the wealth that might greet him in America, only a vision of a place where his children could be safe for once, and where - if he was willing to work hard - he could earn enough to support his family.

After 10 months in Concord, Mohamed, a resettled Somali Bantu refugee, has learned he was half right.

His family has felt welcome in Concord. Volunteers have helped him interpret his mail and enrolled his children in recreational programs. But now that Mohamed's front-loaded government aid has run out, he has discovered that his pay as a landscaper - $7 an hour, $280 a week, pre-tax - is not enough to cover his rent and utilities, which can exceed $1,100 a month.

Mohamed has relied on food stamps to keep his seven children and his pregnant wife fed, but his income has not left enough for staples, like soap and diapers. So Tuesday, against his family's wishes, he will move the brood to Maine. He has no job and no apartment waiting, but he has heard that life there is cheaper and easier for Somali immigrants.

"No one is happy to go to Maine, but they are forced to go," said Nasir Arush, a Somali translator who assists the Bantu communities in Concord and Manchester.

Lutheran Social Services, a federal subcontractor that resettles refugees in New Hampshire, has placed 68 Bantu immigrants in Concord since last Octo
ber. Although Mohamed and his family would become some of the first to leave the state, this is not an isolated case, said Arush. The Manchester-based volunteer sees the signs of a looming exodus. He is in the midst of trying to assist four Bantu families in Manchester who have received eviction notices, and he sees that others in that city and Concord are just barely holding on.

"It's an emergency," Arush said. "I think people will be on the streets soon."

After refugees - defined as people persecuted on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, politics or social standing - are selected for admission into the United States, local resettlement agencies provide on-the-ground services. The agencies obtain and furnish apartments and pay the first month's rent, and their case workers offer a range of orientation and integration services, from acculturation lessons to job-placement help.

But the offerings are limited by the federal funding, and most of the benefits to refugees run out within eight months, said Ann Dancy, director of refugee services for the Concord-based Lutheran Social Services of Northern New England. Although some offerings, like English courses, have no termination date, cash assistance lasts only until a refugee secures a job.

After the agencies turn their attention to newer arrivals, the refugees largely make their own way, which is where volunteers come in. Refugees have been coming to Concord only since the late 1990s, and the city's volunteer network is nascent.

But Mohamed and his family have been assisted by a group of devoted friends, locals who provide rides, read to his children, take the family swimming and call Verizon to negotiate complicated bills. Still, the biggest problem faced by Mohamed and other refugees - the high cost of housing - can't be readily addressed by volunteers.

"The big thing here is that rent is simply too high," said Ellen Kenny, who teaches English for Speakers of Other Languages at the Rumford School and one of the organizers of the Concord Multicultural Project, a confederation of volunteers who assist the city's refugees. "It's just not affordable for people with low income, and that's true of the Americans that live here in Concord as well as everybody else."

Six of Mohamed's children attend Rumford, where they are eager students, cheerful, a pleasure to teach. Kenny will miss them dearly. But she said she respects Mohamed's decision to remove his family from a place where the people are friendly but life is not tenable.

Dancy said Mohamed is a unique case because his family is so large. Her agency has placed more than 350 refugees from a range of countries in Concord over the past seven years. Although rent has been an issue for all of them, most have stayed in the city, she said.

"I know of another family where they moved to Maine, but it's not typical," she said. "I think people really recognize that this is a good community and that it is a good place to live, and that there is a lot of support from the neighbors and the community - and that people have been really willing to reach out to the refugees and try to include them."

But the Bantus are having a harder time than other refugees at achieving self-sufficiency because their learning curve is steeper, Arush said. "You have to teach everything," he said, from how to cross a street safely to how to use a toilet. A persecuted minority in Somalia, the Bantus in Concord fled to refugee camps in Kenya after civil war erupted in 1991. Many of the adults had no education and knew only a circumscribed life; their children had lived only in refugee-camp tents.

Life here can be overwhelming. Mohamed attends English courses but finds it difficult to retain the lessons, he said.

"He said he goes to school, learns something in the morning, but when he comes home (after work) he has a lot of things to worry, he has a lot of things to think, and he forgets everything,"Arush said, translating.

Arush is an ethnic Somali who moved to this country five years ago to attend graduate school. In 2003, he became a case worker for Lutheran Social Services. He left last February to devote more attention to his studies. But while working subsequently as a part-time translator for Bantu refugees, he couldn't escape the difficulties they faced while being weaned from their transitional aid. He got permission to open a Manchester branch of Boston's Somali Development Center, and he now spends three days a week running a Bantu referral service on a volunteer basis - translating, pointing refugees to city and state welfare offices, arranging for medical appointments.

"I feel, really, this is my obligation. I have to do something,"Arush said. "You cannot close your eyes."

Increasingly, the Bantu refugees are telling Arush they dream of life in Lewiston, Maine -a Somali destination that, they have heard, offers cheaper living, more public immigrant aid and shorter waiting lists for Section 8 rental assistance.

But for those who do leave, the decision is difficult. Even without a translator, the strain it put on Mohamed and his wife, Habibo, was evident. At a gathering with friends the other night, he sat in a chair on one side of the living room, his eyes pensive, his mouth a tight line, his arms crossed. When he spoke, he kneaded his hands in his lap.

Habibo sat on the floor, some of her children lying next to her on a partially covered mattress. Most of the time she looked away, picking at the cloth of her wrap skirt, brooding. When she spoke, she gestured wildly, and her eyes were searing.

"She says that it will be a very hard transition and it is very hard to understand. The kids are very active (here). It will be very hard for them to leave in two to three days," Arush said, translating. "I think there was a big argument yesterday."

By ERIC MOSKOWITZ

Where does it say on the Welcome mat to the United States that you can live where ever the hell you want, have as many damned kids as you want, and expect the government to pick up the tab? Manchester is not cheap, seven children are not cheap... I'm having a tough time finding compassion for this story...

The question I have, to make a thread about this topic -- are people entitled to anything, either a citizen or an immigrant, once they arrive in the US?

cyrnel · 08-27-2005, 03:05 PM

My compassion for this case dropped quickly with "seven children plus pregnant wife." You're right. It's a small percentage of families who can support that sized family in a popular area even with both parents working. Concord? An immigrant without skills or a common language? Where do I sign up?

Sounds like the program is in trouble. I wonder if they could form their own secondary economy? Some sort of BantuTown with service connections to the larger community. Could new "chinatowns" be viable? Textiles are imported so the pickings fall to service industries and tourism.

I was hoping this wasn't an "Evil America" post.

Sweetpea · 08-27-2005, 03:27 PM

Well, when all YOUR families came here... unless they were Native American... THEY were helped.

different cultures have larger families than here in the United States, so you can leave your judgement at the door. He's working and trying his best, cut him some slack... because Someone cut YOUR ancestors some slack once upon a time.

In addition... He is a REFUGEE... and deserves at least some slight understanding from all of us, who have been fornunate to have a better life than what he and his family are fleeing.

Sweetpea

maleficent · 08-27-2005, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyrnel

I was hoping this wasn't an "Evil America" post.

Not at all, it caught my attention becuase i'm moving to this area next month, and I make a little bit more than the guy in the article

and have n o kids, and I was having a tough time finding affordable housing...

It seems the article was written that we should feel sorry for some of these immigrants... /me is heartless.

uncle phil · 08-27-2005, 03:42 PM

my grandparents literally hitch-hiked from ellis island to erie, pennsylvania, because they heard there was work in the hammermill paper mills. my grandfather swept floors in the mill from 1911 to 1943, when he retired. my oldest aunt was born in 1914. my grandparents looked for opportunity, not hand-outs...

Sweetpea · 08-27-2005, 03:44 PM

I would like to point out that you are blaming Refugees on wasting the 'tab' of American taxpayers.... It's such a small pittance to the fact that our government and the wealthiest top 2 percent of people in this country control largely 80 percent of the money. Why waste your time being angry about the tiny amount of money spent on Refugee programs when you could be focusing your attention on the fact that our economy is controlled by a small amount of greedy people when keep our minimum wages low and our health/living costs high.

Seems to me that you are scapegoating the Refugee population, which has been done for hundreds of years, but incorrectly. Look at the real people in our country who are working the system, and it's not the poorest in our country, it's the richest.

In fact, only 1.7 billion is spent on Refugees.

Sweetpea

Blackthorn · 08-27-2005, 03:50 PM

I actually think we should feel sorry for these immigrants. It's a very sad story.

I agree with most of your sentiment mal but the policy that allowed them to enter the US in the first place is what needs to be evaluated. If we allow, in fact encourage, people who are selected for admittance because of their refugee status according to the current policy then we owe it to them to make sure they are properly supported all the way to self sufficiency. If we don't do that we'll end up supporting them anyway -- one way or another. These seemingly good people are now subject to exploitation and other nefarious intentions. They may even resort to other not so legal means of supporting themselves.

Clearly this policy needs to be reevaluated. I don't claim to have the right answer but this case looks particularly bad for what current policy allows.

maleficent · 08-27-2005, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetpea

Well, when all YOUR families came here... unless they were Native American... THEY were helped.

You couldn't be more wrong... researching my family tree, I know what my ancestors did after arriving at ellis island - one sewed buttons on shirts as a young teenager to help his family, another swept floors, another delivered milk... they all worked and lived in places they could afford (most of my mother's family lived in Hoboken NJ -- long before it became yuppieville - it was a slum then)

You live where you can afford to live, i don't whine because i can't afford a house in Bedford, NH... I am living where I can afford and paying for it myself... People need to get over their sense of entitlement - just becuase it's available - doesn't mean you can have it.

shesus · 08-27-2005, 03:54 PM

This is a touchy subject and I was debating whether even to respond at first. I agree that having multiple kids and no skills are not the ways of this country. However, they are not from this country. They were accepted to come here to escape the dangers they were facing in their country. This takes a lot of courage. It seems as if the man is trying to fend for himself and support his family.
I feel that they were set up when they were brought here. Why would you put a family like this in a city where the cost of living is outrageous? Granted the neighbors may be accepting and supportive, but as the article said, they can't help pay the bills. I feel sorry for them in the fact that they were basically placed in a situation where faliure was inevitable.
As for government aid, I think that it is great as a crutch, but not as a long-term situation. Many natural American citizens milk the system for all it is worth and still moan and complain. They are not trying to get jobs or move to a place where they could be more successful. So, we shouldn't be blaming the aliens for doing this either. But generally what I see, is that aliens try harder because they came here for a better life.
I'm not saying that this family should be handed everything on a silver platter, but if we brought them over here, we need to get them situated and then cut them lose.

cyrnel · 08-27-2005, 04:00 PM

Sweetpea, I do have pity for his situation, but no more than those of us who can't support ourselves. I'm not judging his family size and my judgement has nothing to do with the situation. His choice or not, the fact is he finds himself unable to support his family in their current environment.

Really, what this brings out for me is disdain for the people and systems who put him in an unsustainable situation. If they tried to build a community with affordable housing and job creation/placement it might work. Putting a guy like this and his family (specifically a large cost/income ratio) into a typical community without a better plan than "8mo and you're on your own" is a waste, and creating pain and failure for everyone. The article tries to focus our attention on charity or our own failures, and not on fixing the failed process that placed this family. That's only perpetuating the failure.

I have compassion for the guy, but like many other problems this one was entirely predictable. This makes me jump straight to wanting to blame/fix. Obviously I'm still stuck on blame.

maleficent · 08-27-2005, 04:04 PM

My real problem here is with Section 8 housing... the current hovel I live in has about 40 percent section 8 housing - why? because it works out well for the complex owners, i could lose my job and the building might be out the rent, with section 8 housing, the building gets paid no matter why. Why do i care/ well, for my 750 square foot unit, i was paying 1200 a month... a larger unit -would rent via Section 8 for aboug 400 a month - my rent continually increases.. while people live in the identical units i do, pay less than half of what I do... Why do they get that right?

WHen i was looking in NH - one building I loved -- I got talked out of by several residents of that building who claimed the section 8 residents treated the place like a housing project.. certain areas were disgusting...

there are places a person can live within their means-- the guy in the story has a job - just not one that allows him to live in manchester -- so -- go elsewhere..

Blackthorn · 08-27-2005, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

...

there are places a person can live within their means-- the guy in the story has a job - just not one that allows him to live in manchester -- so -- go elsewhere..

Absolutely on that point. They should live within their means and while it's not comfortable it is incentive to work hard to improve your lot in life.

shesus · 08-27-2005, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

My real problem here is with Section 8 housing... the current hovel I live in has about 40 percent section 8 housing - why? because it works out well for the complex owners, i could lose my job and the building might be out the rent, with section 8 housing, the building gets paid no matter why. Why do i care/ well, for my 750 square foot unit, i was paying 1200 a month... a larger unit -would rent via Section 8 for aboug 400 a month - my rent continually increases.. while people live in the identical units i do, pay less than half of what I do... Why do they get that right?

WHen i was looking in NH - one building I loved -- I got talked out of by several residents of that building who claimed the section 8 residents treated the place like a housing project.. certain areas were disgusting...

there are places a person can live within their means-- the guy in the story has a job - just not one that allows him to live in manchester -- so -- go elsewhere..

Mal, this is my situation. I live in a Section-8 building, but didn't know until about 6 months after moving in. Our rent is pretty high and it makes me a little peeved that some people are paying less. Especially, when I see the lack of respect these people give. I think it is a cycle in our country where people think they deserve things. People view government aid as an entitlement instead actually of having to work to earn it themselves.

maleficent · 08-27-2005, 04:28 PM

Most of the nicer high rises in Chicago are section 8 -- a year or so ago, when i was considering a move to chicago, I looked at a bunch of places, and fell in love with Presidential towers based on location -- turns out that building is about 20 percent section 8 - and reviews of that place my the residents made me really rethink that decision... (Luckily, where i am moving to, although i am paying more, does not participate in section 8 and the residents are quite grateful)

canuckguy · 08-27-2005, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle phil

my grandparents literally hitch-hiked from ellis island to erie, pennsylvania, because they heard there was work in the hammermill paper mills. my grandfather swept floors in the mill from 1911 to 1943, when he retired. my oldest aunt was born in 1914. my grandparents looked for opportunity, not hand-outs...

I am very glad your grandparents were able to get by without handouts, since you added that to your post i would assume that it makes you very proud, and it should. But comparing 1911 and its work envoirnment to 2005 and its work field is not the same imo. My father had a habit of telling me stories like this. I remember my dad saying if you weren't happy with your job, you could quit and walk across the road and start that afternoon at a better job. Today you could not do that. Well atleast the average worker could not. I don't understand, were your grandparents just better people than this family in the story? Or am I just not understanding that point.

I feel for this guy as all he wants to do is provide for his family. I just can't fault a man for that. Now having so many kids when you can't feed them is a different story, but some cultures are different then ours and it just maybe something that is not thought of or maybe having more kids makes them think there will be more food around. not sure.

maleficent · 08-27-2005, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1975

. I don't understand, were your grandparents just better people than this family in the story? Or am I just not understanding that point.
.

that was in response to sweetpea's comment

Quote:

Well, when all YOUR families came here... unless they were Native American... THEY were helped.

canuckguy · 08-27-2005, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

People need to get over their sense of entitlement - just becuase it's available - doesn't mean you can have it.

I agree with his statement when it does not apply to food, health care and shelter. Which this man and his family needed.

canuckguy · 08-27-2005, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

that was in response to sweetpea's comment

doh! sorry mal!

maleficent · 08-27-2005, 04:57 PM

I'd like to have sushi, filet mignon, and foie gras for dinner every night, or dine at jeans-georges -- the reality is -- it's out of budget. I'd like to be living in Trump Tower - again - out of my budget.. If the dude can't afford to live in manchester, ,move where you can afford - -it doesnt need to be news...

ryfo · 08-27-2005, 06:23 PM

Just to get it clear, is section 8 sort of like public housing? Over here its govenment houseing and its a pearcentage of your income (i think) Then again over here if yu have alot of kids you get a lot of family assistance. Also linked to your income.

Grasshopper Green · 08-27-2005, 06:44 PM

I'm really torn on issues like this. On one hand, I see this guy who is trying to make a better life for his family here....ya know, the place where the streets are paved in gold, and I can't blame people for wanting to come here. On the other hand, I've seen sooooo much abuse of the welfare/aid system here because of working at a grocery store, that I've become really cynical about it. I don't think this guy is trying to abuse the system, and at least he is working, but having people come over here now is completely different than it was in the early 1900's. I think we need a major overhaul in the aid system here.

AVoiceOfReason · 08-27-2005, 08:02 PM

This story raised a couple of things in my mind. First, moving a family is expensive in and of itself--where is the money coming from for that? And $7.00 an hour is better than $0.00 an hour, which is what he has waiting for him.

Second, notice that the tax burden is what is cited as causing his paycheck not to stretch far enough. The Fairtax plan as proposed in Congress now would do wonders for someone like old Mohamed to the second power--he'd get all his paycheck and a monthly stipend to ensure that a fellow on the low end of the wage scale isn't taxed at all for necessities.

I have thoughts on why someone is making more kids while being unable to care for those already here, but that's another issue for another place, I suppose.

Bill O'Rights · 08-27-2005, 10:01 PM

New Hampshire leads my list of places to live. Yet, I live in Omaha. Why is that? Cost Of Living. Right now...I can't afford it. It's that simple. So I sit in Omaha, which really isn't all that bad, and dream of the day when our address contains Manchester, NH.

I feel for this guy, but why is he any different from me? Why should I subsidize his living in an area that I, as much as I would like to, cannot? It really rather frosts my ass.

alansmithee · 08-27-2005, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetpea

Well, when all YOUR families came here... unless they were Native American... THEY were helped.

Hehe, yeah my ancestors were totally helped when they came here. They were given free passage across the ocean, and given the most state-of-the-art shacks to house them. They also were fed the choicest scraps of meat. They had plenty of hours to lounge in the sun, getting a great workout. And if this wasn't enough, there were random beatings/lynchings thrown in! Man, what help they received!

Seriously, a statement like that is just ignorant. Most of the original settlers weren't helped when they arrived. They fought for what they got. And many of the later waves of settlers/refugees worked extremely hard for whatever they could get. America isn't (and shouldn't be) the world's welfare system. If it were up to me, I'd take the Statue of Liberty and it's silly inscription and ship the lot of them back to France.

Bill O'Rights · 08-27-2005, 11:02 PM

^^^^I read that, and had to laugh. Well put, alansmitee. Very well put.

As far as my own ancestors go...they were German immigrants, that settled America in the 1720's. Although they...paid for their passage, they had to tame, and tear a living out of, a very rugged and wildernistic Pennsylvania. The only "help" that they got was from neighbors, that would help each other out. Similar to Amish "barn raisings".

Sweetpea · 08-27-2005, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

Seriously, a statement like that is just ignorant. Most of the original settlers weren't helped when they arrived. They fought for what they got. .

you're right. It was a generalization on my part and i admit that point.
i am not so ignorant that i don't know our country was stolen from one ethnicity and built on the toil of others. A few greedy people exploited everyone else to build this country, it's actually a disgusting shame how our country came about and nothing to be proud of.

Yes, they fought for what they got, but it appears to me that in this story in the OP, this gentlemen is Also fighing for a better life for his family and himself, i don't see where or how he can be faulted for wanting a better life?

I agree with others that it's the aid system that needs an overhaul, placing blame on the Refugee population is not going to be how it starts either. It's not their fault for using the system as their social workers and case workers are guiding them to.

Sweetpea

shesus · 08-27-2005, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa99

I'm really torn on issues like this. On one hand, I see this guy who is trying to make a better life for his family here....ya know, the place where the streets are paved in gold, and I can't blame people for wanting to come here. On the other hand, I've seen sooooo much abuse of the welfare/aid system here because of working at a grocery store, that I've become really cynical about it. I don't think this guy is trying to abuse the system, and at least he is working, but having people come over here now is completely different than it was in the early 1900's. I think we need a major overhaul in the aid system here.

I also got very cynical while working at a grocery store. People were milking the system by buying 25 cent packs of gum to buy alcohol with the change. I think that most states have fixed this by making welfare cards. However, I also had a friend who got a job in an attempt to get off welfare. It turned out she was getting more money from the government than she was from her minimum wage job. It is a tough issue. I'm not sure what the answer is, but the welfare system needs to get fixed.

Suave · 08-27-2005, 11:56 PM

You can't seriously tell me you're blaming a Somolian for having 7 kids, when with the infant mortality rate and life expectancy, they probably only expected 3 of them to survive max. And not only that, anyone would have a lot of trouble if they had to move to a new culture.

analog · 08-28-2005, 02:14 AM

Concord? Manchester? They're out of their minds. I live in florida, and I couldn't live in the city of orlando on what I was making at my last job, which was good.

I'm glad he's working, but I know plenty of people who work 2 jobs to get extra money, surely a second job is within reach to survive. Also, you need not live in an expensive city. Find a nice suburb where the rent is more affordable.

I'm not sure why we would feel bad because they have to move. Lots of people have to move due to income problems, all the time. I don't see how who they are has anything to do with it.

Like Phil said, if you work hard, and live smart (not somewhere expensive) AND STOP MAKING BABIES, FOR FUCKS SAKE, you should eventually work your way to a point where you at least don't have to worry about the simple (yet very important) things like food, or heat. I can't even imagine how much food SEVEN fucking kids and a pregnant wife consume.

Having a child may be your right, but it is not OUR burden to feed them, clothe them, keep them warm, etc.- it is YOUR job.

maleficent · 08-28-2005, 04:00 AM

the actual definition of section 8 housing is

Quote:

This type of affordable housing is based on the use of subsidies, the amount of which is geared to the tenant's ability to pay. The subsidy makes up the difference between what the low-income household can afford, and the contract rent established by HUD for an adequate housing unit. Subsidies are either attached to specific units in a property (project-based), or are portable and move with the tenants that receive them (tenant-based). The Section 8 program was passed by Congress in 1974 as part of a major restructuring of the HUD low-income housing programs.

Where I'm complaining about it, it's not public housing or a housing project. you can look at pretty much any apartment complex or building, and the average tenant might pay 1000 per month, where as a section 8 tenant might only pay 400 per month, for exactly the same benefits, in exactly the same units. It's a benefit for the building management company because thy get paid no matter what, but for the people who live there, let's just say in my experience with section 8 tenants, they don't always treat the place like it's really 1000 dollars a month... they treat it like a 400 dollar a month place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryfo

Just to get it clear, is section 8 sort of like public housing? Over here its govenment houseing and its a pearcentage of your income (i think) Then again over here if yu have alot of kids you get a lot of family assistance. Also linked to your income.

hulk · 08-28-2005, 04:26 AM

Working in debt collection, you really do find a lot of people expect a free ride. This usually ends in their mid- to late-20's where they owe upwards of 30 grand, have no income, 2 kids and living generally from day to day on a measly welfare income.

You have to look at how people get in these situations - the family in the original post here, I'm sure, didn't know that much about living standards and costs in the US, and I'm very sure they didn't elect to be placed in a high-cost area like I understand they were. People I work with quickly rack up tens of thousands of dollars worth of credit card debt, lose their jobs, and assume that if they ignore it it'll go away (hint to those in that situation - it won't). Nothing is more frustrating than trying to help these people out of the holes they dig for themselves and being basically told to shove it.

True, there's plenty out there who abuse welfare, but there's also many people who genuinally need it to live from day to day. To place refugees who have just arrived here in the former is a mistake. This guy has a job, it's not paying enough for the area he's in, and being forced to move is never nice, no matter the circumstances.

Psycho Dad · 08-28-2005, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Where does it say on the Welcome mat to the United States that you can live where ever the hell you want,

I wonder how much of a voice the family had in the decision to be placed in that area.

When I was a kid, we had a family of Vietnamese refuges move to town. If I recall, they were sponsored by a local church. Of course I do not know what assistance they got other than neighborly assistance from the sponsoring church and the kindness of other townspeople. The father got a job at the grade school as a janitor and they lived in a modest home that they rented until they were able to afford to purchase a home some years later. This home I believe was purchased through a government program, but purchased by the Phams nevertheless. The children grew up, went to school and have done well and the father retired from his custodian job and still lives here.

Had this family been placed in the Colonial Estates addition of a larger and wealthier neighboring town, I suppose the Phams would have found it a tough row to hoe as this Somali family has. Clearly there needs to be some thought as to where to place refugee families. It doesn’t seem that the Mohameds were given any regard as to what the family’s earning potential would be in comparison to their living expenses. Without a doubt it is time for Lutheran Social Services to evaluate how they place families.

Somehow I also question if the Mohameds have a sense of entitlement or does the writer of the original article. If I had to make a bet, I think it likely the writer does. Hopefully this family can find self sufficiency before a sense of entitlement gets hammered into them. There are places better suited than where the Mohameds were put to giving them a chance to make it on their own and the government needs to realize this and put them there if they are going to be in the refugee business.

Charlatan · 08-28-2005, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Dad

Somehow I also question if the Mohameds have a sense of entitlement or does the writer of the original article. If I had to make a bet, I think it likely the writer does. Hopefully this family can find self sufficiency before a sense of entitlement gets hammered into them. There are places better suited than where the Mohameds were put to giving them a chance to make it on their own and the government needs to realize this and put them there if they are going to be in the refugee business.

This is how I read the article as well...

AVoiceOfReason · 08-28-2005, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suave

You can't seriously tell me you're blaming a Somolian for having 7 kids, when with the infant mortality rate and life expectancy, they probably only expected 3 of them to survive max.

Uh, yeah, I am blaming them for it. First, if you can't get enough food for yourself, or you're living in a land of political persecution, bringing kids into the situation isn't wise in any culture. Second, after you have 6 of them on the ground surviving, the cultural need for the 7th is questionable, and the 8th after in this country is just jawdropping. The article said it was the number of rugrats that was causing this to be a problem.

Quote:

And not only that, anyone would have a lot of trouble if they had to move to a new culture.

I don't doubt that, and especially coming from an area that was like the Stone Age.

While I'm thinking of it--and it has nothing to do with what I replied to--did anyone else notice that it was a Lutheran group providing services via a federal subcontract? I wondered if that was part of Bush's much decried plan to have private charities help in cases like this. Sounds like it, anyway, and despite the emphasis on the problems presented by this one family trying to live where the rent is too high for them (and others), it may be a plan that is working overall.

I wonder how many Muslim groups are providing such services for Lutherans?

Glava · 08-28-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVoiceOfReason

I wonder how many Muslim groups are providing such services for Lutherans?

I wonder how many people from Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland and Germany are trying to go to the United States. Not many, I'd say.

AVoiceOfReason · 08-28-2005, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glava

I wonder how many people from Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland and Germany are trying to go to the United States. Not many, I'd say.

Ok, let's not limit it just to US immigants; how about any that are in need, anywhere in the world?

And saying it out loud sort of makes the point, doesn't it?

Suave · 08-28-2005, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVoiceOfReason

Uh, yeah, I am blaming them for it. First, if you can't get enough food for yourself, or you're living in a land of political persecution, bringing kids into the situation isn't wise in any culture. Second, after you have 6 of them on the ground surviving, the cultural need for the 7th is questionable, and the 8th after in this country is just jawdropping. The article said it was the number of rugrats that was causing this to be a problem.

He was not brought up with nearly the same conceptual framework that you have. It's like someone blaming you for only having one or two children, then moving somewhere that you find out you need more. Is it somehow your fault that you were raised with the expectation of having a low number of children, and not requiring offspring to help you survive?

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I wonder how many Muslim groups are providing such services for Lutherans?

A person is a person, regardless of religious beliefs.

Considering your name, it's interesting that you have not provided any evidence to back up your anti-Islamic implications.

AVoiceOfReason · 08-28-2005, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suave

He was not brought up with nearly the same conceptual framework that you have. It's like someone blaming you for only having one or two children, then moving somewhere that you find out you need more. Is it somehow your fault that you were raised with the expectation of having a low number of children, and not requiring offspring to help you survive?

I know about the cultures that have a lot of children so they will have enough to provide for parents in old age. I question the whole concept behind that thinking, though--if you are starving, then how are straving children that become starving adults, and eating more of the limited amount of food, going to help? Someone needs to rethink that entire method of social security.

Quote:

A person is a person, regardless of religious beliefs.

Considering your name, it's interesting that you have not provided any evidence to back up your anti-Islamic implications.

Hey, I can't prove the negative. If such aid from Muslim organizations to non-Muslims is common, I'd like to know about it, and surely someone as "suave" as you are can show it to one as "reasonable" as I am.

Suave · 08-28-2005, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVoiceOfReason

I know about the cultures that have a lot of children so they will have enough to provide for parents in old age. I question the whole concept behind that thinking, though--if you are starving, then how are straving children that become starving adults, and eating more of the limited amount of food, going to help? Someone needs to rethink that entire method of social security.

Hey, I can't prove the negative. If such aid from Muslim organizations to non-Muslims is common, I'd like to know about it, and surely someone as "suave" as you are can show it to one as "reasonable" as I am.

I named myself after my shampoo. I make no claims toward being suave, although if I must try, I will undertake the seduction of any member of these boards.

I agree with your first point, and I think that kind of education for developing countries is hugely important. Since we're introducing our technology and everything else, we must introduce our methods of coping with it as well.

If you want some evidence for Muslim NGOs: http://www.msa-natl.org/resources/Relief_Orgs.html

A list of most of the major ones. :P

AVoiceOfReason · 08-29-2005, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suave

I

If you want some evidence for Muslim NGOs: http://www.msa-natl.org/resources/Relief_Orgs.html

A list of most of the major ones. :P

Thanks for that link. In looking at it quickly--about 5 minutes scrolling down and skimming--it looks like those are organizations that are set up to help Muslims. I did a word search for the word "Christian" and found it was used one time, as was "non-Muslim" but neither were used in the sense that someone other than a Muslim was being assisted.

The situation in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast will be a great opportuntity for us to see which organizations give aid to the victims. I'll keep my eyes open for Muslim organizations helping out the general populace, and maybe you can do the same.

And I've engaged in thread diversion enough on this point, so I'll end on this, unless a new angle on it is introduced.

08-27-2005, 03:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	My compassion for this case dropped quickly with "seven children plus pregnant wife." You're right. It's a small percentage of families who can support that sized family in a popular area even with both parents working. Concord? An immigrant without skills or a common language? Where do I sign up? Sounds like the program is in trouble. I wonder if they could form their own secondary economy? Some sort of BantuTown with service connections to the larger community. Could new "chinatowns" be viable? Textiles are imported so the pickings fall to service industries and tourism. I was hoping this wasn't an "Evil America" post. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

08-27-2005, 03:27 PM	#3 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	Well, when all YOUR families came here... unless they were Native American... THEY were helped. different cultures have larger families than here in the United States, so you can leave your judgement at the door. He's working and trying his best, cut him some slack... because Someone cut YOUR ancestors some slack once upon a time. In addition... He is a REFUGEE... and deserves at least some slight understanding from all of us, who have been fornunate to have a better life than what he and his family are fleeing. Sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself" Last edited by sweetpea; 08-27-2005 at 03:30 PM..

08-27-2005, 03:42 PM	#5 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	my grandparents literally hitch-hiked from ellis island to erie, pennsylvania, because they heard there was work in the hammermill paper mills. my grandfather swept floors in the mill from 1911 to 1943, when he retired. my oldest aunt was born in 1914. my grandparents looked for opportunity, not hand-outs... __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

08-27-2005, 03:44 PM	#6 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	I would like to point out that you are blaming Refugees on wasting the 'tab' of American taxpayers.... It's such a small pittance to the fact that our government and the wealthiest top 2 percent of people in this country control largely 80 percent of the money. Why waste your time being angry about the tiny amount of money spent on Refugee programs when you could be focusing your attention on the fact that our economy is controlled by a small amount of greedy people when keep our minimum wages low and our health/living costs high. Seems to me that you are scapegoating the Refugee population, which has been done for hundreds of years, but incorrectly. Look at the real people in our country who are working the system, and it's not the poorest in our country, it's the richest. In fact, only 1.7 billion is spent on Refugees. Sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

08-27-2005, 03:50 PM	#7 (permalink)
Blackthorn Beware the Mad Irish Location: Wish I was on the N17...	I actually think we should feel sorry for these immigrants. It's a very sad story. I agree with most of your sentiment mal but the policy that allowed them to enter the US in the first place is what needs to be evaluated. If we allow, in fact encourage, people who are selected for admittance because of their refugee status according to the current policy then we owe it to them to make sure they are properly supported all the way to self sufficiency. If we don't do that we'll end up supporting them anyway -- one way or another. These seemingly good people are now subject to exploitation and other nefarious intentions. They may even resort to other not so legal means of supporting themselves. Clearly this policy needs to be reevaluated. I don't claim to have the right answer but this case looks particularly bad for what current policy allows. __________________ What are you willing to give up in order to get what you want?

08-27-2005, 03:54 PM	#9 (permalink)
shesus Fancy Location: Chicago	This is a touchy subject and I was debating whether even to respond at first. I agree that having multiple kids and no skills are not the ways of this country. However, they are not from this country. They were accepted to come here to escape the dangers they were facing in their country. This takes a lot of courage. It seems as if the man is trying to fend for himself and support his family. I feel that they were set up when they were brought here. Why would you put a family like this in a city where the cost of living is outrageous? Granted the neighbors may be accepting and supportive, but as the article said, they can't help pay the bills. I feel sorry for them in the fact that they were basically placed in a situation where faliure was inevitable. As for government aid, I think that it is great as a crutch, but not as a long-term situation. Many natural American citizens milk the system for all it is worth and still moan and complain. They are not trying to get jobs or move to a place where they could be more successful. So, we shouldn't be blaming the aliens for doing this either. But generally what I see, is that aliens try harder because they came here for a better life. I'm not saying that this family should be handed everything on a silver platter, but if we brought them over here, we need to get them situated and then cut them lose. __________________ Whatever did happen to your soul? I heard you sold it Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

08-27-2005, 04:00 PM	#10 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Sweetpea, I do have pity for his situation, but no more than those of us who can't support ourselves. I'm not judging his family size and my judgement has nothing to do with the situation. His choice or not, the fact is he finds himself unable to support his family in their current environment. Really, what this brings out for me is disdain for the people and systems who put him in an unsustainable situation. If they tried to build a community with affordable housing and job creation/placement it might work. Putting a guy like this and his family (specifically a large cost/income ratio) into a typical community without a better plan than "8mo and you're on your own" is a waste, and creating pain and failure for everyone. The article tries to focus our attention on charity or our own failures, and not on fixing the failed process that placed this family. That's only perpetuating the failure. I have compassion for the guy, but like many other problems this one was entirely predictable. This makes me jump straight to wanting to blame/fix. Obviously I'm still stuck on blame. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

08-27-2005, 04:04 PM	#11 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	My real problem here is with Section 8 housing... the current hovel I live in has about 40 percent section 8 housing - why? because it works out well for the complex owners, i could lose my job and the building might be out the rent, with section 8 housing, the building gets paid no matter why. Why do i care/ well, for my 750 square foot unit, i was paying 1200 a month... a larger unit -would rent via Section 8 for aboug 400 a month - my rent continually increases.. while people live in the identical units i do, pay less than half of what I do... Why do they get that right? WHen i was looking in NH - one building I loved -- I got talked out of by several residents of that building who claimed the section 8 residents treated the place like a housing project.. certain areas were disgusting... there are places a person can live within their means-- the guy in the story has a job - just not one that allows him to live in manchester -- so -- go elsewhere.. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

08-27-2005, 04:28 PM	#14 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Most of the nicer high rises in Chicago are section 8 -- a year or so ago, when i was considering a move to chicago, I looked at a bunch of places, and fell in love with Presidential towers based on location -- turns out that building is about 20 percent section 8 - and reviews of that place my the residents made me really rethink that decision... (Luckily, where i am moving to, although i am paying more, does not participate in section 8 and the residents are quite grateful) __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

08-27-2005, 04:57 PM	#19 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	I'd like to have sushi, filet mignon, and foie gras for dinner every night, or dine at jeans-georges -- the reality is -- it's out of budget. I'd like to be living in Trump Tower - again - out of my budget.. If the dude can't afford to live in manchester, ,move where you can afford - -it doesnt need to be news... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

08-27-2005, 06:23 PM	#20 (permalink)
ryfo Psycho Location: melbourne australia	Just to get it clear, is section 8 sort of like public housing? Over here its govenment houseing and its a pearcentage of your income (i think) Then again over here if yu have alot of kids you get a lot of family assistance. Also linked to your income.

08-27-2005, 06:44 PM	#21 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	I'm really torn on issues like this. On one hand, I see this guy who is trying to make a better life for his family here....ya know, the place where the streets are paved in gold, and I can't blame people for wanting to come here. On the other hand, I've seen sooooo much abuse of the welfare/aid system here because of working at a grocery store, that I've become really cynical about it. I don't think this guy is trying to abuse the system, and at least he is working, but having people come over here now is completely different than it was in the early 1900's. I think we need a major overhaul in the aid system here. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

08-27-2005, 08:02 PM	#22 (permalink)
AVoiceOfReason Psycho Location: Greenwood, Arkansas	This story raised a couple of things in my mind. First, moving a family is expensive in and of itself--where is the money coming from for that? And $7.00 an hour is better than $0.00 an hour, which is what he has waiting for him. Second, notice that the tax burden is what is cited as causing his paycheck not to stretch far enough. The Fairtax plan as proposed in Congress now would do wonders for someone like old Mohamed to the second power--he'd get all his paycheck and a monthly stipend to ensure that a fellow on the low end of the wage scale isn't taxed at all for necessities. I have thoughts on why someone is making more kids while being unable to care for those already here, but that's another issue for another place, I suppose. __________________ AVOR A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

08-27-2005, 10:01 PM	#23 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	New Hampshire leads my list of places to live. Yet, I live in Omaha. Why is that? Cost Of Living. Right now...I can't afford it. It's that simple. So I sit in Omaha, which really isn't all that bad, and dream of the day when our address contains Manchester, NH. I feel for this guy, but why is he any different from me? Why should I subsidize his living in an area that I, as much as I would like to, cannot? It really rather frosts my ass. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

08-27-2005, 11:02 PM	#25 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	^^^^I read that, and had to laugh. Well put, alansmitee. Very well put. As far as my own ancestors go...they were German immigrants, that settled America in the 1720's. Although they...paid for their passage, they had to tame, and tear a living out of, a very rugged and wildernistic Pennsylvania. The only "help" that they got was from neighbors, that would help each other out. Similar to Amish "barn raisings". __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. Last edited by Bill O'Rights; 08-27-2005 at 11:25 PM..

08-27-2005, 11:56 PM	#28 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	You can't seriously tell me you're blaming a Somolian for having 7 kids, when with the infant mortality rate and life expectancy, they probably only expected 3 of them to survive max. And not only that, anyone would have a lot of trouble if they had to move to a new culture. __________________ "Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

08-28-2005, 02:14 AM	#29 (permalink)
analog Banned	Concord? Manchester? They're out of their minds. I live in florida, and I couldn't live in the city of orlando on what I was making at my last job, which was good. I'm glad he's working, but I know plenty of people who work 2 jobs to get extra money, surely a second job is within reach to survive. Also, you need not live in an expensive city. Find a nice suburb where the rent is more affordable. I'm not sure why we would feel bad because they have to move. Lots of people have to move due to income problems, all the time. I don't see how who they are has anything to do with it. Like Phil said, if you work hard, and live smart (not somewhere expensive) AND STOP MAKING BABIES, FOR FUCKS SAKE, you should eventually work your way to a point where you at least don't have to worry about the simple (yet very important) things like food, or heat. I can't even imagine how much food SEVEN fucking kids and a pregnant wife consume. Having a child may be your right, but it is not OUR burden to feed them, clothe them, keep them warm, etc.- it is YOUR job.

08-28-2005, 04:26 AM	#31 (permalink)
hulk C'mon, just blow it. Location: Perth, Australia	Working in debt collection, you really do find a lot of people expect a free ride. This usually ends in their mid- to late-20's where they owe upwards of 30 grand, have no income, 2 kids and living generally from day to day on a measly welfare income. You have to look at how people get in these situations - the family in the original post here, I'm sure, didn't know that much about living standards and costs in the US, and I'm very sure they didn't elect to be placed in a high-cost area like I understand they were. People I work with quickly rack up tens of thousands of dollars worth of credit card debt, lose their jobs, and assume that if they ignore it it'll go away (hint to those in that situation - it won't). Nothing is more frustrating than trying to help these people out of the holes they dig for themselves and being basically told to shove it. True, there's plenty out there who abuse welfare, but there's also many people who genuinally need it to live from day to day. To place refugees who have just arrived here in the former is a mistake. This guy has a job, it's not paying enough for the area he's in, and being forced to move is never nice, no matter the circumstances. __________________ "'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review.