Willravel

What did I pick and choose? Where did I flip-flop?

dksuddeth

In your choice of whether to keep a gun to carry or at home for defense of family and self. You said that you don't feel the odds of being a crime victim are worth getting a gun. That is a choice, yet you can still be a victim of crime as you have experienced.

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Maybe I can make this more clear with an illustration. Let's say you play the lottery all your life and you finally hit the lotto. Do you think that makes it more or less likely to hit the lotto again? The answer is simply that your odds stay the same. If you have a 1/6,500,000 chance of winning and you win... your odds of winning again are still 1/6,500,000. My experience didn't mean that the odds changed, and I'm not the type to make an emotional decision about buying a gun. It absolutely has to be logical. Logically, I'm not likely to be shot again. Just like logically, I'm not likely to be hit by lightning or get flesh eating bacteria. Just as I don't own a gun for protection, I don't have a lighting rod and I don't wear gloves and a gas mask.

Does this make my stance more clear? I hope?

Plan9

This thread makes me feel... oh, I don't know...


Aaah, Pipboy! Thanks.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Hain

OK I am not against guns. I eat red meat. I like spinach. I don't wear a gas mask. I don't wear gloves (but I wash my hands enough).

• dksuddeth: "Does that mean that we should not step in to violence if another citizen is being assaulted?"

  Not at all. How often are you going to be doing that? Luckily the last time I stepped up to stop people from making a bad move, I just needed to grab something blunt.

• dksuddeth: "statistics don't mean crap when it's you that becomes the victim."

  Agreed. I don't want to be another victim. But chance doesn't change just because it happened once. I can happen again.

• dksuddeth: "mass killings happen because none of the victims have a means of defense. They don't happen in gun shows because the people in there have a ready means of equal firepower to defend themselves, limiting any carnage and murder."
  Just because it hasn't happened at a gun show, does not mean some nutjob can't walk into a gun show packing and blow away some people. The only difference is his ass is grassed by the patrons of the gun show, thus removing said nutjob's luxury of ending his own life.
  
• Crompsin: "Think it would be funny if I started wearing bull's eye shirts to class?"

  They come in my size. I bet you can find one too.

• @ Willravel:

  The other things I can prepare for... well they can be out of my hands. Natural. A nutjob walking into a restaurant is not natural. At least it shouldn't be for this century. PM me links to threads or sites that warn me of the dangers of my ignorance. I trust you to hand out safe websites, if not legitimate sources.

I AM NOT AGAINST GUNS!

Is it because our generation is a bunch of underachievers, overstimulated by video games and mass media, end up working at the last minute, buys coffee at Star Bucks for $3.00 a jolt when they could have made it for $0.30 at home? (I'm done stealing a friend's interpretation of what the fuck in wrong with this generation.) I want to know why our generation is going down the tubes.

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////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

mixedmedia

I don't think nutcases do have an easier time shooting people. There are just more nutcases...with guns. My parents grew up in Atlanta. It wasn't the old west. Every other guy on the street was not carrying.

You know, just because an event involves a gun, it doesn't make it a gun control issue. One way or the other. Neither stricter nor more lax gun control laws would have necessarily prevented this disaster waiting to happen.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

abaya

Wow. Crompsin, I have to be honest here: if I found out that my date was carrying a gun (anywhere, but especially on a date), that would seriously freak me out. It would probably be a dealbreaker right there. Not that my opinion matters, since I'm married anyway, but just wanted to comment on that.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Hain

Agreed. It doesn't matter how, if a crazy wants to take out people, armed or not, they will accomplish it with or without guns.

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Charlatan

Nice to see that the thread that I thought was progressing in an interesting direction for a change turned in the same old same old.

Nice to see that we still know how to beat a dead horse.

/end sarcasm

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Tully Mars

Yep, still pretty new here but when I saw this thread my first thought was to go add a comment about the shooter and his lack of medication recently. Maybe add something about the victims. But nope! I was waiting for the thread to open and I realized it would be another gun control argument.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Hain

Like I said before, not the direction I wanted to take. Gun control isn't the issue. Crazy control is my issue.

I should go add sarcastic tags to that comment.

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Charlatan

Augi no worries... you made a great effort.

Sometimes the crazies have weapons other than guns.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Hain

Thanks Charlatan.

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dksuddeth

the medication part is something that should be discussed. how does society MAKE/FORCE a person to not discontinue their meds?

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Hain

It doesn't require that people go off their medication.

Is there any more information on the Louisiana Tech shootings?

But medication control would be a new horse to whip.

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Plan9

I guess we come from completely different backgrounds. I can understand your perspective, I really do. I hope this helps.

Think of it as some kind of macabre good luck charm, a carry-over from my time in the army where I carried an automatic rifle with a grenade launcher for an entire year at a time without every once having the opportunity to squeeze either trigger. Voodoo. Karma. Magic. A bizarre protective talisman. Just having it kept me alive.

I seldom carry a pistol due to my current lifestyle (school), not all that often in comparison to most people with this type of license... but when I do carry it? I never need the damn thing and I never worry about needing it... because it's there. Not once has the thing left the holster in an emergency. Not even close. I figure it never will.

I take comfort in that fact, not the fact that I have a firearm.

...

I have a concealed weapons permit because I feel that if I carry this two pound piece of metal around with me sometimes... I'll never need to use it.

...

Statistics, silly little numbers they are, dictate that I will never need to use my concealed weapon. Not even close to once in my entire life. Infinitesimal chance. However, on the impossible chance that I'm, oh, shoe-shopping at the outlet mall or catching a late movie at the cineplex with the girlfriend and some nutjob with a shotgun and Glock (TM, the Preferred Weapon of School Shooters) wants to get all homicidal and emo on the crowd? After I'm done belly-flopping on the ground like a soldier yelling "Incoming!" and have carefully inventoried all my fingers and toes, he's in for a real surprise: victims that shoot back. There would be zerp joy in doing such, either. It would suck.

...

I'm not some paranoid schizo who talks to his piece and plays quickdraw in the mirror.

I've never hurt anybody. I certainly don't plan it on, either.

My life is worth carrying a silly piece of steel around.

I don't have a badge-of-the-man but I will in the future.

Does that make it easier to understand?

...

I'm a sane, responsible, hard-working pseudo-civilian. Why are you afraid of me being armed in a country where the bad guys are often armed?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

abaya

Thanks, I appreciate this. I hope you know I wasn't being critical in my comment... it was just my honest reaction to what you said. And hey, as long as your dates aren't freaked out by you carrying a gun, then as I said, my opinion doesn't really matter on that issue.

I also appreciated your level-headed explanation of why you carry it. I can see how our backgrounds differ, and I know your military experience must have a strong influence on your reasons for carrying a gun.

But I must say, having walked around in downtown Beirut in recent years, with tanks and guns pointing at me on several street corners--soldiers at the ready to fire at any of us, anytime--(god knows how they could possible stop a car bomber that way, since there is never any warning of that kind of thing), it still never occurred to me that I should also be walking around armed. It has never occurred to me to walk around armed, even in extremely dangerous places.

I have held a gun to shoot BB's at pop cans when I was maybe 8 or 10 years old. I knew where the gun in our house was, growing up, and I hated knowing it was there. We lived in a remote place, far from any law enforcement's ability to get to us quickly, but still it never occurred to me to ever have to use a gun. The only people I ever knew who carried guns were usually paranoid relatives who were basically stockpiling their own weapons cache (wanna-be paramilitaries) who freaked me out in general. My 10 year old cousin walked around with rounds of ammo across his chest. I stayed very clear of him.

Not that any of this contradicts your reasons for carrying, but I just wanted to confirm our different backgrounds. I also wanted to clarify what you said here:

I know that you're a sane, responsible, hard-working pseudo-civilian. I'm not afraid of you being armed, that's not the issue. My only point in responding earlier was that if I was dating someone, no matter how sane and responsible they were, if they were carrying a gun around on their person... that would be the end of it, right there. That doesn't mean I would be afraid of them, or that I wouldn't be friends with them... quite the opposite (I like you, man!). I would just not want to ever be romantically involved with them. I don't know how to explain it, but that's just the way I personally feel.

I should also put in a little perspective that my husband has gone so far as to refuse to ever work for any company that is related to weapons manufacturing, no matter how good the money is. He grew up in a civil war, where everyone was in a militia, everyone was armed, people were shooting not just guns but mortar fire and launching bombs around his city on a daily basis. He wants nothing to do with those things, and I'm alright with that.

It comes down to sharing values, I guess. I think deciding whether or not it's okay to pack a weapon is along the same lines as whether or not people want to have children, or have an open relationship, or what have you... those kinds of values have to be in agreement. I never thought about gun ownership in those terms before, but since you mentioned it, Crompsin, I've had to think about it. Thanks for that.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Ustwo

I think if you really looked at it, you would find it is in fact fear. It sounds like you have always had it.

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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

A nutjob breaking down your door isn't natural. It's rare... as rare as being hit by lightning. Spending money on guns in order to JUST prepare to defend your home means that you fervently believe that those odds still are enough to warrant preparedness. The problem, though, is that dangers are are far more likely are not prepared for. You're more likely to be hit as a pedestrian by a drunk driver, but you don't see people avoiding sidewalks. This strongly suggests that preparedness for this unlikely home invasion is an excuse, not a reason. It's a weak excuse that covers for the real reason. '

BTW, your biggest threats come from poor diet and exercise. Eat healthy and exercise at least 30 minutes a day and you'll have just warded off the top 10 or so causes of death in the US.
I'm doing just fine. I've been in big business since I was 21, when I graduated from a great private college early, and I make 3 times what all my friends from high school make (except my friend that opened a Karate school... turns out that's REALLY lucrative). I'm also putting things in motion in order to get into law school. I don't drink coffee because I view caffeine as a crutch and I don't like the taste.

I'm a business leader today and if I've got anything to say about it, I'll be a community or possibly even governmental leader in the future.

dksuddeth

what a load of crap. This is you attempting to belittle and marginalize those that prepare for the possibility of being a crime victim to mask your own fear of guns. plain and simple.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

It's funny to hear a person who's never been shot before say "fear of guns" to someone who has been shot before but still manages to have more objectivity on the matter.

Yes, I'm marginalizing people who are selective about protection. Why? Because you've not been called on your bullshit. You, dksuddeth, are probably never going to be home invaded, but you've still spent god knows how much on a small arsenal of guns that you excuse by saying they're for home defense. They're not. Whether you're aware of it or not, that's just an excuse. The real reason you have those guns is inexcusable, so you try to cover up for that by screaming "self defense" and hope that people buy the fallacy that is something is done in self defense, it's always right.

Plan9

Blargh.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

samcol

Does it even matter what they're for? They aren't killing people so what's the problem.

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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Plan9

Rumor has it you don't have to be shot to know it's a bad thing.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

samcol

I think the verdict is still out on that one.

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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Willravel

The problem is the availability of guns to people who shouldn't have them: namely people who are criminals or have emotional or mental problems. I do trust some people with guns. Crompsin, for example, makes no qualms about explaining that they're for fun. I understand that. I used to have a bb gun when I was a kid and I can imagine opening fire with the real thing on a range is a blast, not to mention that soldiers who were deployed actually develop friend-like relationships with guns. I get that.

What I don't get is the "if he breaks down my door, I'm going to kill him" mentality about criminals being paired up with the "everyone should be armed" mentality. That's dangerous. And I don't mean dangerous like running with scissors. I mean dangerous like playing with a match inside a gas tank.

Plan9

So, uh, DK... do you have fun with your recreational firearms?

I think the difference between the hobby person and the psycho person is the fun factor.

I have fun with them and put them away. I don't sleep with them at night and refer to them as "Ole Right-Maker."

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

abaya

I can see where you're coming from, and there's some truth to that. But fear isn't everything. I've always been afraid of open water (my father drowning at sea might have something to do with that), but I still dove headlong into crew in college, because I loved facing that thing that scared me on a daily basis. I developed a healthy respect for the power of open water. I've typically been drawn to things that I fear... not so with guns, ever. I've always just seen them as a total anomaly in my life... something that did not belong.

When I think about guns and ammo, etc... the dominant feeling isn't fear, it's that of being in a totally unrecognizable country. I have no connection whatsoever with the mindset of wanting to be armed... it's just not there, even when reason states that it should be, maybe (e.g. walking around Beirut, or hell, even when I was doing fieldwork in the Philly ghetto). I just never had that curiosity, which is strange for me. I'm the type who gets curious about damn near everything, even if it's dangerous and a very bad idea.

So part of that may be fear, but I think a lot of it is also personality and maybe the way I was raised. Gut values, as I said before.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Hain

As I'll never regain control of this thread.

Think of it then in terms of convenience. How convenient is it to get from here to there without walking down some street? It wouldn't be. Once one has a gun.. that is all they need and they are prepared. I am not for the "kill he whom dares enter unlawfully" mentality, but I do believe in:

1. If the threat is clear and immediate, neutralize it
2. Neutralizing the threat with as little harm as possible (I'd only be willing to shoot the intruder in the arm if said intruder became hostile towards me)
3. Teach the point that breaking in to my family's home is wrong and there are immediate consequences.

Exclude yourself from this any look around you at mostly everyone else.



I agree. Again, guns are not the issue. Whatever is fucking over our culture and society is the problem. Again: Guns don't kill people, they just help.

n0nsensical

Exactly. Guns are not the issue. Whether there are more guns or less guns is not going to stop anyone from committing mass murder if they really want to do it. We can't create a society with no guns, as they say, the cat's out of the bag, someone's going to have them and I'd much rather everyone have them than only the government. It's much better to have an armed citizenry in which there are rare illegal shootings than a government with guns and a citizenry with none. Governments are much more dangerous with power.

No laws can prevent this type of incident. Mass murder is already illegal and the murderers typically intend to die anyway, so anything that happens after they start shooting is irrelevant. Arming everyone in class is terribly impractical, but I agree that if someone meets state standards for concealed carry it should be legal to carry in schools, or at least any public institutions. Why anyone would be qualified to carry a gun in certain public places and not in others was always a mystery to me.

Ustwo

I think its pretty common for a lot of women actually, and apparently willravel.

While single I never even thought about having a gun beyond a 'meh maybe, whatever' but now that I have kids and a wife, my protection instincts are heightened, especially with the kids. Hurt me, ok, hurt my kids, I'll rip off your arms and beat you with them if needed, but shooting works better.

Most boys are drawn to guns as well. We played solider almost daily as a kid, and my son already turns pretty much every stick like object into a gun and thats just from seeing a few video games.

Much like its your nature to abhor weapons, I am drawn to them, not in a 'unhealthy' way, I currently don't own a weapon more dangerous than a K-Bar, but there is something about them that carrying them seems natural.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dksuddeth

I can have objectivity on the matter because i've been shot AT, just never been shot.

gee will, I own two handguns. what arsenal are you referring to? whats my 'real reason'? my small penis?

when i can afford extra ammo, I love going to the range.

I don't sleep with mine either. they have their own damn bed.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

MSD

Oh, this again. Carry on.

Plan9

BELOW: Possible portrait of average middle-aged white American male?

While there is a grain of truth to it, if you were any more sexist in that last post... I'd have to slide into a ratty NASCAR shirt and put on one of those tacky beer can hats.

...

Two? Is that it? Awwh, jeez. I don't even know how to handle that, DK.

And I'm really objective because I've been shot at with RPGs and mortar rounds the size of your calf. Who wants to whip it out and play "who's got the bigger one?" with me? Who cares? I don't give a fuck who's been shot at with what and I think it's a really shitty debate point when discussing psychos who've capped innocent students.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Ustwo

I'm not trying to get a date here so I don't worry how I sound. There is nothing sexist about saying women are less likely to be drawn to weapons and fighting. Its scientifically documented from our childhoods on. Not all men are, not all women aren't but there is a reason that women so rarely fight in wars that when they do it becomes notable or even enters mythology in the case of the amazons.

You might be trying to get a date here though so I understand your position.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Plan9

... because they can't enlist in combat military occupational specialties such as 11, 21, and 13 series in the United States Army?

While physical size and strength is the biggest factor, social attitudes of equality and training can overcome biology when there is a willing mind.

I know quite a few female LTs that can bench press more than I weigh.

...

When ya've got a smooth spot like a Ken Doll... dates are a just big waste of time and money, brother.

/threadjack

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Ustwo

There are always some just like there are some men who would have no place anywhere near combat. Its not our physical biology that I'm overly concerned about here. Sure even though I almost never work out these days I can take pretty much any woman who hasn't been martial arts trained, I don't consider that to be the problem. Guns are a great equalizer.

Its the psychological differences that make the difference. Its not so much social attitudes its how our brains are wired, and our society is based on that, not the other way around.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

spindles

I think the bottom line to this kind of thing is that there are psychos out there. This is not a USA only thing - mass shootings occur everywhere, it just seems to the USA has a system where guns are more accessible (Australia's gun laws changed dramatically after the Port Arthur massacre - see link for details of the shooting - that even if I wanted a gun I have absolutely no clue how to go about getting one).

Also, American shootings on this scale make the news because most of the news outlets have a pretty US centric view - bombs going off in other countries probably don't the coverage in the US that a school shooting gets.

RE access to guns - personally I think it should be really hard to get one, even if the law says you can have one. Laws should be written in such a way that there should be a sizeable background check before you can buy one. If you are deemed to be mentally unstable, you should not be able to buy a gun - end of story.

I don't buy into the more guns = more gun crime argument either. I think this is a red herring. The kinds of people that do this kind of thing are psycho and everything should be done to identify the causes of this, not be so hung up on "where did the gun come from?"

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who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

Plan9

But I need you like fat kids need cake.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

it's a financial thing. recession and all.

I agree, but then I didn't bring it up to start with. Willravel did by saying he knows better since he's been shot and i haven't. or something like that.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."