Hain

We should be be getting familiar with this song. Columbine, Virgina Tech, and now NIU.

ABC 7 Chicago Article

DEKALB, Ill. (WLS) -- A gunman who opened fire at an NIU lecture hall Thursday afternoon -- killing five and injuring more than a dozen people -- shot himself to death, police said.

NIU President John Peters said there were 22 casualties in total - six deaths and 16 injuries.

Four females and two males, including the shooter, died. Four people, including the shooter, died on the scene. Two victims died at the hospital. All of the five victims were undergraduates.

Eighteen victims were sent to hospitals. Most went to Kishwaukee Community Hospital. Six victims, the most critically injured, were transported via helicopter to other hospitals - three to Good Samaritan Hospital in Downers Grove, two to OSF St. Anthony Medical Center in Rockford, and one to Rockford Memorial. One male died at St. Anthony.

I don't know where this thread should go. Moderators, thanks if you move it else where.

Oh...

Happy Valentines day.

__________________

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abaya

Not the only one this week...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080215/...s/niu_shooting
You know, ktspktsp and I have received constant news of car bombings and assassinations from Lebanon, every 2-3 months for the last 3 years... where the killings actually have a purpose (not saying I approve of the purpose or method AT ALL, but it can't be denied that there is actually an objective being carried out). I mean, we're talking about the Middle East there.

And then I get this kind of news from the US, where you're not supposed to have to worry about being a victim of that kind of random violence as a college student. I mean, WTF? What is so fucked up with our country that we have bastards like this walking into schools and shooting people, for NO FUCKING REASON??

If these individuals had been born in the Middle East instead of the US, would they have become suicide bombers instead? Is this some kind of pathological thing that would happen anywhere these people were born, or is it something about the US that makes these *type* of killings unique? Why guns? Why university campuses? Christ.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Hain

Oh, Superman where are you now? When everything's gone wrong somehow?

How do we stop this? How do we get into the mind that justifies these bloody actions? Where do we start? How does it end?

We are always left with these questions. We think there will be another answer if we look a little harder. We convince ourselves, "There must be a motive." What happens when it is this time that there was no motive. There was no reason. There was no justification.

We could just as easily call it insanity. What if it was not even that?

Is this the world we live in?

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abaya

To further clarify my post... let's say that instead of school shootings, that these were indeed car bombs a la Middle East. They do end up killing 5-10 passersby every time they go off, and there is no warning beforehand. How would the American response be different, if these shootings were perceived as a terrorist threat? Why are these shootings NOT labeled terrorist, even though that's exactly what they are? Is it because they have no political motive, and therefore they can be brushed off like any other sad headline in the news?

How many school shootings will it take before Americans start to think, "Oh, wait, the greatest threat to our safety is actually happening HERE, on our own soil, at the hands of our own insane people, with our guns in their hands?" I'm rambling, but these are the questions that come to mind.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Hain

Oh no, I understand. I have many the same questions you have. I agree with you.

I am rambling on a different topic.

My question is, what happens when there is no motive? What happens when these atrocities have no reason anymore? What do we think?

There never is any reason that would justify these shootings. But there is a reason to these people. What happens when there isn't even that?

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Plan9

You need a motive to kill other people. Anger. Revenge. Insanity.

There's a reason... not necessarily a good one, but still a reason.

...

(looks at his gun safe)

Yet again... mine didn't do anything yesterday.

...

What a nightmare.

I can see my future tuition costs going to cover the campus SWAT team.

Instead of a new laptop, I'll need to buy a friggin' Uzi for my junior year.



...

How do you counter this insane behavior? Harsh language?

Useless metal detectors? How about special skin-tight uniforms?

Professors should be able to carry concealed weapons.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Hain

Imagine the nightmare where someone doesn't even have those as reasons. No motive, no reason, no actual insanity, just decides to waste a classroom full of kids.

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Ustwo

When you have crazy emo shooter training camps funded by outside powers, promoting school shootings then you have a terrorist threat. These guys though aren't even up to Unibomber standards.

Cars are an even greater threat to our safety. You deal with these threats as best you are able foreign or domestic, and responses will be different.

That would be in the 'insane' group.

People are not terminators ala the movie. We are still social animals with motives and goals. When that gets crosswired somehow you get insane actions.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

abaya

Good point. Ktspktsp reminds me of this all the time, when I get scared about traveling in Lebanon.
Agreed. But I'm wondering if you would be willing to use the same explanation for suicide bombers in the Middle East, hmm... anyway, that's another thread.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Bear Cub

I believe this to be either the fourth or fifth school shooting in a week.


I think its a matter of time before we see students with concealed carry permits bring their sidearms with them everywhere, regardless of school approval. That's assuming there aren't several out there who do this right now. As it is, I know of several students in my area who won't leave home without carrying a knife due to an outburst of muggings and shootings in town over the past few weeks.

Ustwo

Of course, a suicide bomber is HIGHLY motivated, and I'd say most of them are not insane.

Its the motivation, the indoctrination, the social pressures that create them, that let them do what to those outside look like insane actions.

Thats really the difference between a terrorist and some wacky shooter like this.

A wacky shooter is more like a force of nature. Its someone defective, someone who for whatever reason has lost their grip. A terrorist is not insane, but guided with malicious intent.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

abaya

A wacky shooter doesn't have malicious intent? I think it's a bit much to say that these guys are just random mutations in society, without looking at the context of the society itself... why aren't there similar mutations in every other society? The only other school shootings I have heard of, have been copycats of the American school shootings... and are still very rare.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Baraka_Guru

I think there is at least a casual relationship between one who engages in a terrorist act and a "random" school shooter: There are significant stressors that drive them to commit these acts. Neither a terrorist nor a shooter (in most cases, at least, I would say) simply decides "hey, I think it would be good or interesting to kill some people; I'm not doing much else today, so why not? I've always been curious, and it's not like I like these people very much, I hate them even. And I don't even know them. I think I'll do it."

In either case (again, I will suggest this is most but not all), these individuals are acting out as being driven by stressors that come from society and individual situations. Yes, there are such things as cultural and other conditioning, especially in the case of the terrorist. But indoctrination alone does not drive one to end their lives in a swath of risky violence. There is more to it than that. An extremist of any form does not usually act out in such a way without an accumulation of stressors (or a single extraordinary one) that push them over the edge.

If it isn't stressors, it could simply be mental illness. Either way, I don't buy the argument that there is no motive, no purpose...that they do this for nothing.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Ustwo

They have malicious intent but they are not guided by outside motivations, just their own internal demons.

The only other school shootings I have heard of, have been copycats of the American school shootings.

Its how we do things, perhaps its part of our culture, but you could just claim all the american ones are copy cats too.

Same shit, same planet. Shootings before suicide seems to be the new way to get attention.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ASU2003

Part of the problem is if you start handing out guns to everyone, the shooters will just turn to bombers. Unless they are trying to target specific people or types of people, bombs work. Just look to the Middle East. They don't go around shooting people, they blow up.

It isn't very hard to figure out why these happen. Sure there are thousands of people who might be possible school shooters and don't, so that is the hard part, determining who is going to do this and who isn't. I would say that this was caused by jealousy and emotional problems that he was unable to cope with, and instead of just killing himself, it made sense to take out the people that were happy and successful that reminded him of how much of a loser he was.

Maybe in elementary school they should mention that if you tease and bully other students that they might come back and kill them a few years down the line.

Plan9

A: Suicide bombings don't seem to fit the emo "out for justice, gonna make things right" mentality quite yet. The idea of this really scares me, though.

B: As George F. Kennan put it... society's delicate compulsions... keep us in check. Those that completely fall away from the mold are lost. Sometimes they turn to substance abuse... sometimes they kill themselves... sometimes they kill others with a Glock (www.Glock.com) in a blaze of emo glory... sometimes they just play WoW.

C: They do mention it. Turns out the Dr. Phil generation isn't listening to it. We're all "special and unique snowflakes that deserve a chance." Pfft.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

ngdawg

Used to be when you told someone to "be careful" as they headed to the mall or class, it meant "don't fall, don't wreck the car." Now, it's come to mean "Duck if you hear gunshots."

Why do these crazies with guns feel the need to take out everyone in their path when they're suicidal? Go back to the good old days when crazy boy went out back and did himself in. Alone.

Charlatan

I just want to say that I am enjoying this thread more than I've enjoyed any of the threads that revolved around the other school shootings.

Thanks.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

abaya

Which part are you enjoying? Just curious.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Plan9

The only effective way to stop a crazy with a gun is to have a gun of your own...

...or be Chuck Norris.

The math sucks... gun + gun = dead body. Only good thing to come from it is that maybe the "good guys" won't always be on the right side of that equal sign.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

FTW.

There are no guarantees in these scenarios except more deaths when one side is denied the ability to effectively defend themselves against those that ignore the laws/rules.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Baraka_Guru

What about crazy-with-a-gun prevention?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

That features two distinct parts:

1. Crazy (a noun for person)

2. Gun (the implement of choice)

...

Is it easier to "fix" a gun or "fix" a person?

I'd suggest that the gun isn't broken... it's doing what it was designed to do: propel metal projectiles in one direction.

How do we fix the person? Good parenting, education, afterschool sports, social programs, less TeeVee, more sex.

...

Mmm, I should think about this some more.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Martian

Even if we argue that the gun is somehow broken or flawed in some way, 'fixing' it doesn't solve the problem. If I've learned anything from watching James Bond films, it's that nearly any household object can be fatal.

It's still a situation where I'm not sure adding more guns is the right thing to do. Then again, I don't know if there is a right thing to do. I do know that I'm more unsettled by the idea of random people on the street being armed than I am by the idea of nobody being armed.

(Yeah, I know, those aren't exactly the choices offered...)

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

hagatha

Hey I know....maybe its time Americans re-examine their whole "right to bear arms" bullshit. Guess what, the British aren't invading any time soon (which was why that was put in the Constitution in the first place).

I can see no valid reason for a civilian to carry or own an assault weapon of any kind. Time for the laws to change and guns to be restricted. Moving in the other direction, students arming themselves, will be utterly disastrous.

__________________
Thats the last time I trust the strangest people I ever met....H. Simpson

Plan9

First: Define "assault weapon." Funny, huh? Turns out I can assault you with ANY weapon, including my fists, a baseball bat, or sack of dead babies. Go figure! Don't use bullshit pop culture media labels to describe firearms. Daddy's precious family heirloom deer rifle and an AK47 do the same damn thing: They go BANG. Bullets fly out.

Second: Gun control / confiscation would be impossible in the United States. Just handguns alone? Americans legally own fifty-six million according to the gummint.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

Where did he get the guns, and how can we use this information in the future in order to prevent this?

Baraka_Guru

A thing isn't always merely a sum of its parts. We shouldn't ignore the gun simply because it was the only thing that was "right." A crazy with a pillow isn't so bad, after all.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dksuddeth

Not to sidetrack this thread in to constitutional interpretations of the 2nd Amendment, but your premise and theory is dead wrong. The 2nd wasn't written because of the possibility of british invasion, it was written because the framers had an inherent distrust of government and KNEW that the 'people' were the ultimate sovereign holders of liberty.

provide some evidence for proof of this statement please.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Ustwo

Where didn't the dead kids get their guns and how can we use this information in the future in order to prevent this?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Plan9

Touche, Grand Master Funkenstein.

Crazies will always find better and better weapons. Pilllows to nerf bats to napalm.

We, as a society, need to focus on being able to defend ourselves through both mindset and physical means as well as encouraging.

Funny how the world is such a safe place and yet the most dangerous thing we encounter while we're alive.

The scouts always used the mantra, "Be prepared." I don't know how that applies to crazies, but I know how it applies to me.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

tell that to the person he/she smothers with said pillow.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Baraka_Guru

They also didn't intend for women and non-Whites to vote. Did you put people in quotation marks to indicate that the framers also considered "people" to be "landowners"?

There are amendments for a reason. Times change. Change or die.

EDIT:
That would be up to the orderlies and the institution.

Another EDIT:
Crompsin, I find it hard to believe that any individual would need more than one gun. Two at most. Three or more is borderline paranoid, or crazy. Having this amount tells me: "I like things that kill people. A lot."

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

Holy shit, you're so funny!!!

Plan9

This makes me really sad.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

samcol

Uh, you need a pistol for conceal carry, a shotgun for home defense and a high capacity rifle for the zombie apocalypse.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Willravel

Crompsin has guns for entertainment. Yes, that's kinda scary, but quite frankly it makes a lot more sense than having one to defend your family from an intruder or some garbage.

Baraka_Guru

Don't misread it. The keyword was need, which was italicized with intent. You can want certain things because "hey, I'm a collector, or enthusiast," but to procure these things (especially at 3 or more) because yu think yu need them sounds at least a bit paranid to me, or crazy.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

AMEN, BROTHER! We'll take it to those brain-eating bastards!

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

some things change, like finally acknowledging that women and minorities are people, other things don't, like some people could give a shit about taking your life for 20 dollars.

like was said above, one pistol for carrying for immediate self defense, a shotgun for home defense, a large capacity semi-auto rifle for multiple armed home invaders, a hunting rifle and shotgun.

aw, geez. not this shit again.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."