07-10-2007, 09:31 AM | #41 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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as far as the lottery is concerned it is also made clear via the "odds of winning." that is part of every contest from lottery to winning a free pepsi.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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07-10-2007, 09:38 AM | #42 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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What are the odds that you can actually get your Civic hybrid to get 50 mpg? How many tested even under optimal conditions, can get that? We don't know. All we have is the vague "your mileage may vary". What it should say is "You're probably not going to get 50 mpg. Shoot, you'll be lucky to get 40. Most people get around 32." FALSE advertising. The EPA is wrong, and Honda is wrong to go along with it. |
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07-10-2007, 09:44 AM | #43 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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Results not typical and Your Mileage May Vary. It clearly falls under "puffering" and "salesmanship." YMMV hasn't changed until recently wherein EPA was pressured to change their methodologies. Their methods were extremely hard to replicate. Just like people who read the prospectus for any stock offering, there is a chance you may not achieve the same results. Just like there is a chance that you may even meet or exceed them.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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07-10-2007, 09:47 AM | #44 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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"Results not typical" would be acceptable. "Results may vary" isn't. |
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07-10-2007, 09:50 AM | #45 (permalink) |
I Confess a Shiver
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Well, the guy gets bonus points for being a complete jackass for believing anything that a profit-seeking mega-corporation releases. Money-money.
Example: My General Motors (made in Canada / Asia) truck supposedly gets 24 miles a gallon. Downhill. With a tailwind. They'll post 24 because they can get away with it legally. Has nothing to do with the actual reality. Consumer reporting organizations would get a thumbs up here. I'm sure if I got on the Intarweb and looked up customer experiences with Honda Hybrids... I'd find the real MPG ratings of this vehicle in practice as opposed to lab conditions. (hands out T-shirts for everyone) I DID THE RESEARCH. |
07-10-2007, 09:52 AM | #46 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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Undercarriage rust protection???? there are numerous other items that could be listed that "salesmanship ethics" are questionable. I would state that YMMV and Results not typical is pretty equal in my view of the world. Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 07-10-2007 at 09:53 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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07-10-2007, 10:01 AM | #47 (permalink) |
Big & Brassy
Location: The "Canyon"
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The EPA & its testing standards garbage can take a flying leap, Honda can follow them out the window. It's just another case of finger pointing and the blame game. Honda didn't test it, 20 year-old EPA standards never accounted for hybrid motors, so... nobody to blame but the consumer here.
In this day and age of "Nothing is my fault, and I'll sue someone." Personal responsibility is dead. Period. Maybe this dude is a duchebag and drives like a jackass, so what? Someone needs to get off their ass and test the damn car and put a realistic MPG estimate on the sticker. How hard is it to gas the fucking thing up and drive it, then write down the results?? Duh...? I assume that this method is somehow flawed or non-exact.
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If you have any poo... fling it NOW! |
07-10-2007, 10:03 AM | #48 (permalink) | ||
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07-10-2007, 10:23 AM | #49 (permalink) |
Asshole
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Location: Chicago
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As a salesman, inserting the YMMV caveat protects me from bullshit claims like this one because I did, in fact, tell them that their mileage may vary.
Honda used the standard of the time. It's not their fault that the EPA required them to use an unreasonable test to calculate the final number. I think that you could even argue that as a Japanese car maker, they would lobby for the change since the new one favors cars that are actually fuel efficient, which most American cars are decidedly not. Will, salemanship is the antithesis of business ethics. It's about forcing the facts into an argument that someone who wants something actually needs it. No one NEEDS a Prius since there are lots and lots of alternatives. They convince themselves that do need it, and the salesman's job is to help them do it at this dealership instead of the one down the street.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
07-10-2007, 10:33 AM | #50 (permalink) | |
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I wouldn't want to live in a world where we excuse immoral and unethical practices simply because someone wants to make a buck. I mean, I don't see a reasonable man like you, The_Jazz, thinking that the Haliburton war profiteering is in any way right. I am, of course, not suggesting that what has happened here is on the same scale as Haliburton, but the doing anything for a buck philosophy has serious problems. |
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07-10-2007, 10:43 AM | #51 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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07-10-2007, 10:49 AM | #52 (permalink) | ||
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The_Jazz continued what I'm assuming your argument would be: basically that money > ethics. I would strongly disagree, and would gladly live in poverty as opposed to becoming a bad person. I guess that makes me either crazy, or full of... Quote:
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07-10-2007, 10:58 AM | #53 (permalink) |
Asshole
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Location: Chicago
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will, at the risk of a further threadjack, I think you missed a major part of my argument. The salesman's job is to make the FACTS fit the PERCEPTION. The guy who taught me more about selling than anyone other than me once explained the great salesman theory. The best saleman in the world can actually sell ice cubes to Eskimos. He does that by convincing them that cubed ice is better, faster and easier than ice they dug up themselves. In reality, it's the same damn thing as what's all around them, but they didn't have to make the ice cubes themselves, and sometimes that hassle is worth the expense. Good salesmen NEVER EVER LIE to a customer; if you get caught in a lie, not only will you lose that sale, but you can rest asured that every cohort of the lost sale is going to know about your truth problem. I never said that they weren't responsible for their statements, but I think that we all know that the truth about anything depends on your perception. Even in math, as we see here, there are very few absolute truths.
Mentioning Haliburton is a big old strawman. They don't have salemen. They don't need them. Why would you pay a sales force when the easy channels for your products and services are automatically opened to you.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
07-10-2007, 11:11 AM | #54 (permalink) | ||
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As you say, a good salesperson never lies. But what about those who inform the salesmen? I've known car salesmen, and they're not all upper management or mechanics. A lot of them simply get their information from the brochures and from more knowledgeable managers. There is a lie or an omission somewhere between those who tested and noted the abilities and features of the car and the salespeople. It was in that mess that the mistake was made. Someone knowingly allowed the incorrect or misleading figures of the EPA to be put on the window of the car, and all the "results may vary" business can't excuse deliberately misleading by not putting a correct and authentic figures for customers. Maybe I should put it this way: what if the next Kia Rondo advertises "top speed: 155 mpg, results may vary"? Quote:
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07-10-2007, 11:20 AM | #55 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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Typical to you isn't the same as my typical. My typical driving is dense city driving, I'm lucky to get within 5mpg of what the "city" rating is. My highway is a little closer but again, my own driving habits alter it. My wife driving the car gets much better mileage. Again, salesmen are allowed to "puffer" I believe that is the legal term they are allowed to use. It is a time honored tradition to try to part a person with their money, salespeople have been able to do it easiliy and readily for centuries.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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07-10-2007, 11:29 AM | #56 (permalink) | ||||
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07-10-2007, 11:51 AM | #57 (permalink) | |
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07-10-2007, 11:56 AM | #58 (permalink) | |
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07-10-2007, 11:57 AM | #59 (permalink) | ||
Asshole
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Location: Chicago
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Ready? You're wrong. Absolutely, completely and utterly wrong. At least about Honda. Honda did not come up with the methodology for calculating the MPG for vehicles. That is and always has been the baliwick of the EPA. If you don't like it, complain about them, not Honda. The current testing methodologies also are an EPA creation. The original testing standards were in place for decades until they changed a few years ago. That's why most cars took a noticable drop in MPG. The test itself was created artificially high milage, but all automakers had to use the same test to calculate the averages. Quote:
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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07-10-2007, 12:07 PM | #60 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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07-10-2007, 12:09 PM | #61 (permalink) | ||
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Again, the EPA screwed up. Honda used that to their advantage to misinform. |
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07-10-2007, 12:10 PM | #62 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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07-10-2007, 12:12 PM | #63 (permalink) | |
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Again, you're assuming that everyone is gunning it in their hybrid. I see no evidence to suggest this. As a matter of fact, I have several friends who drive conservatively in their Priuses and who do not get anywhere near the EPA mileage. Do you have information, besides the mpg, to suggest these people are burning more gas by driving inefficiently? |
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07-10-2007, 12:24 PM | #64 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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will, you don't seem to get it, so let me make this perfectly clear.
You know the MPG numbers in the window? Those are required to be there by law. They are only allowed to be calculated in the way that the EPA dictates. You have to accurately represent what the results are, no matter if the test is inherently flawed or not. Again, Honda (or any other carmaker) did not do anything wrong here. They obeyed the law to the letter. If they had posted different, lower numbers, they would have been breaking the law. Honda did not misinform anyone. To the contrary, they actually did inform people of the results as required by law. Blaming Honda in this argument makes no sense to me at all.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
07-10-2007, 12:27 PM | #65 (permalink) | |
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Of course I 'get it'. They're using the EPA's blunder to their advantage. [I]They're passing on the misinformation, misinformation that they benefit from.[/O] I don't know how you're not getting it. |
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07-10-2007, 12:37 PM | #66 (permalink) | ||
Asshole
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Location: Chicago
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Why in the world would a salesman EVER tell you that the milage would be lower? He has no way of knowing about that. Besides, the sticker itself says "your milage may vary". Quote:
What you want is for Honda to have been misreporting the MPG for their vehicles even though that was 1) against the law and 2) would have put them at a competitive disadvantage. Again, you're tilting at windmills here. Don't be mad at Honda. Be mad at the EPA.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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07-10-2007, 12:51 PM | #67 (permalink) | |||||
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You can bet your ass if the government said that the Hummer H3 got 9 mpg when it actually got 12 mpg, they'd be going nuts. Honda has consented to and passed on and promoted the incorrect information because it is beneficial. Quote:
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07-10-2007, 12:57 PM | #68 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
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No I don't, but Gwhiz who used to post here regularly mentioned that the process for getting the most gas mileage was quite different in his hybrid than thought. It was a matter of learning how to coast more often which is counter intuitive to normal driving of pressing the gas and applying the brake. It is a different methodology than what people normally do in driving a normal fuel vehicle. Quote:
change a few things like an engine chip and that mileage changes, also change the oil type, change the size of the wheels and tires, all those factor in gas mileage, manual versus automatic, the list goes on and on. you get those really nice 18" wheels, you've changed the gas mileage specs. Again, what is typical usage for you is not the same as typical usage for me or someone who lives in the Mojave desert.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 07-10-2007 at 01:01 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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07-10-2007, 01:08 PM | #69 (permalink) | ||||
Asshole
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Location: Chicago
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I feel like I'm arguing with a wall, so this is my last time through this.
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Their cars DO use less gas. It's just not as much as the original test showed. Obviously it is a selling point, but the carmaker can only show you the results based on the EPA test. It's a very good reason why they tell you your milage may vary. Quote:
I will point out that telling a customer that the MPG shown on a car sticker is a federal crime, even if it is techically true. Again, hard to blame any dealer or carmaker for that one. Quote:
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You might find these interesting reading: http://www.epinions.com/content_4524974212 http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=104936 http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml#estimates
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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07-10-2007, 02:11 PM | #70 (permalink) | |||
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07-10-2007, 03:54 PM | #71 (permalink) |
Wise-ass Latino
Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA
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I keep hearing "Mileage may vary" but what is the acceptable margin for variance? I drive a Ford explorer, and as leadfooted as I am, and as loaded up with work equipment that this truck is, I still manage 13 mpg from a vehicle that's rated at 13/17.
When the best you can muster is only 60% of what the vehicle is rated at (and maybe this guy should list the EPA as a co-defendant for having numbers so off the mark), I would think this is beyond what is acceptable for how much your mileage would vary. To me, this is as unacceptable as buying a car that was advertised as having 0-60 times of under six seconds (as tested by some leading magazine) and the best I could ever muster under optimal conditions was eight and a half seconds.
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Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator |
07-10-2007, 05:38 PM | #72 (permalink) | ||||
Asshole
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Location: Chicago
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New cars only. Used cars aren't beholden to the EPA rules. The 2007 DX is beholden, but do you want to bet that those numbers are just as inaccurate in real world conditions? If you are, I'll be very happy to take your money. Just let me know how much you want to "wager", and we'll find someone nice and trustworthy to hold your money until it turns into my money. Quote:
Yes, pointing out the numbers are wrong is a federal crime. That's what I said before. Let me say it again: if a car salesman tells you that the MPG listed on a sticker of a new car that he's trying to sell you is inaccurate, he's committed a federal offense. Clear enough? And I thought that we were leaving salesmen and salemanship out of this. I guess not. Based on the numbers, and realizing that in comparing a hybrid you have to have something to compare it to, yes, it will save you money, especially if I compare it to a new non-hybrid in the same class. It will not only use less gas but will be better for the environment than another new car in the same class. By making that statement, not only have I done nothing illegal but I've also done nothing unethical. What I haven't done is told you that you can save more money by taking the bus, walking, driving a 1994 Geo Metro at no more than 25 mph or living as a hermit in Saskatchewan. It's all relative, and as a saleman, I feel just fine standing behind that kind of statement. To sum it up, you're wrong. There's no room for error. Admit it and move on. Quote:
There's no way that a carmaker can accurately predict what everyone's driving habits are going to be and come up with some sort of national average, and there are so many variables that would affect the number that the equation becomes complex. We're talking about weather, season, tire pressure, frequency of oil changes, traffic patterns, type of tires, type of gas, etc., etc. There's a lot of room for error for a very good reason.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo Last edited by The_Jazz; 07-10-2007 at 05:43 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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07-10-2007, 06:08 PM | #73 (permalink) | |||
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This isn't about them putting the sticker on the car or the figures in the commercials. Here go to the main page of the 2007 Civic Hybrid: http://automobiles.honda.com/models/...e=Civic+hybrid Quote:
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07-10-2007, 06:47 PM | #74 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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Save on gas. What does that really mean? And what could it be construed as meaning? good for the environment? What does that really mean? And what could it be construed as meaning? Again, these are all salemanship and fall under that without problem, the numbers are attainable and not absurd nor going against the EPA madated listing and requirements. Again, your points are good, but misdirected. Blame the EPA, blame all the administrations that allowed the EPA to utilize this methodology. It isn't flawed just now, it has been flawed for over 3 decades. For you to rise up now and target Honda is just stupid. I've been complaining about it for 20 years already, along with the CAFE standards being so lax for light trucks which all SUVs are classified.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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07-10-2007, 07:28 PM | #75 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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I bought a Civic (2007) because of the "good mileage". I owned a Civic (2003) before and loved the mileage (I could drive from LA to SF on one tank with the AC on). I am not an idiot, I did my research. I even know that the EPA is the agency requiring the mpg listing and is the agency that tests for it too. The old one was rate 28/26 or something and the new on eis rated even better at 30/4o.
However, I don't think I am unreasonable to be pissed off that the Civic I bought doesn't even return the lowest end of the rating (30/40). I get around 27-28. That sucks. I feel like I got a lemon. Unless somehow the car will magically start getting better fuel mileage. I know some people say you're supposed to "break in" a car or "train" a car to get good fuel mileage. |
07-10-2007, 07:39 PM | #76 (permalink) | ||||
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This is a statement that makes clear that you'll save money on gas with this car. False advertising based on EPA estimates they know to be incorrect. That's not salesmanship. Quote:
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07-10-2007, 08:00 PM | #77 (permalink) | |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
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07-10-2007, 08:02 PM | #78 (permalink) | |
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If that's the case, that's not necessarily true. |
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claims, honda, hybrid, mileage, owner, sues |
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