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#41 (permalink) | ||
Location: Iceland
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Anyway, sounds like you're a pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps type. If we expand this to the international level of poverty analysis, you'd strike me as being in the modernization camp. Chalk me up to being a world systems/dependency theorist, which I take as meaning we're fundamentally opposite in our viewpoints on the topic and therefore will not yield any ground in such a debate. So it goes. Quote:
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran Last edited by abaya; 05-25-2007 at 12:39 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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#42 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/ |
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#43 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
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#44 (permalink) | ||
Fancy
Location: Chicago
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I think the whole issue revolves around people taking responsibility for themselves. If you're fat, realize why you are fat and fix it. Do you have to work to do that? Hell, yeah. But if people don't want to buy and consume healthy food and move the body in some way, then they will stay fat. And that is not only an unattractive sight, but carries many health risks. Survival of the fittest I suppose... Even if a person is working crazy schedules and is pulled every which way...how hard is it to make a pot of beans and rice? Yes, you do have to open the can and boil the rice and wait about 20 minutes. I guess that is exhausting for some people. Don't like beans and rice? There are a ton of cheap 30 minute or less meals that are extremely tasty and healthful. The main reasons that I see, in no particular order, are: 1) lack of nutritional education 2) lack of self-control/discipline 3) laziness 4) genetics Lack of money isn't the issue..healthy food is actually somewhat cheaper, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Quote:
Generational poverty is what I'm most familiar with. The parents are poor, they realize that their lives are shit too late and want better for their children. However, they don't know how to help their children because they didn't try in school and don't have the education. The kids see that in their parents and instead of thinking, "Wow, I don't want to be like my mom or dad." They think in their child brain, "My parents ain't got no education and we do fine." Then they grow up and realize too late that they should have taken advantage of the free education...and hence the generational cycle. So while people may be trying, they are trying too late. People who hit a bump in the road and find themselves flat broke have the resources (i.e. education) to get out because they tried in the past and are still trying now. While it might take a while to dig out, the past accomplishments help.
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Whatever did happen to your soul? I heard you sold it Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company Last edited by shesus; 05-25-2007 at 01:50 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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#45 (permalink) | |
That's what she said
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My point was that, in general, lower-income families are also less educated. I wouldn't be surprised if a large percentage couldn't fill out a food pyramid or even tell you the main food groups, so I highly doubt they are going to know what a balanced diet looks like... which means they are more susceptible to marketing because, like I said, they essentially don't know any better. They just know they're hungry and that a Super-Sized Big Mac Meal sounds delicious. Fast food marketing spins their product to look tasty and desireable. They know the nutritional value is lacking, so they don't talk about it... they try to appeal to people in other ways, such as cheap pricing and quick service... and it works. But you're right, that is exactly why Subway DOES mention their nutrition information in their marketing. It's a competitive advantage they have over McDonalds, Burker King, etc. However, I would much rather own a McDonalds franchise than a Subway franchise... any day of the week.
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"Tie yourself to your limitless potential, rather than your limiting past." "Every man I meet is my superior in some way. In that, I learn of him." |
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#47 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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Why is is that the only poor people who are fat live in the Western world. You certainly don't see too many fat poor people in third world countries. That would tend to indicate that there is a factor other than just being poor, for instance perhaps it is more about the type of food that is easily available to poorer people, the culture within the lower socio-economic classes or the education of poorer people.
Then again, perhaps it is not that poor people are fat in the west, but that fat people are poor because they are too bloody lazy to get off their fat arses. |
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#48 (permalink) | |
Fancy
Location: Chicago
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Also, a big mac does fit in the food pyramid. Meat, vegetables, dairy, and maybe fruit (again the tomato), it's all on the big mac and french fries (potatoes...er they're supposed to be anyway) are vegetables. The important thing they don't understand or don't care about is that the grease and processed goodness of it all is making it unhealthy. Anyway, it's not so much that they don't know that the food is unhealthy, it is more that they don't know how to cook. It's amazes me how many people don't know how to cook and opt for take-out or pre-made foods. Of course, to cook you have to be able to read and do math...lack of education can hinder you from doing this even if you have the measuring cups. Plus, if you are poor, do you really have the $50 to toss out for cheap pots and pans? It's expensive to get kitchen supplies.
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Whatever did happen to your soul? I heard you sold it Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company |
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#49 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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There are other factors too.
1. If you aren't eating enough or healthy, doesn't the body store whatever food you do eat as fat in anticipation? 2. Some of the fat poor people (homeless people) may have a disease too. I'm not too sure, but I think there may be some disease or condition that causes a person to bloat or store fat even though they don't eat well or regularly. Kind of like the starving African kids with the distended bellies. 3. Eating poorly is a direct result of getting in a bad cycle. I have occasionally gone through this. When I am working too much, don't have enough time and exhausted all the time, I turn to McDs etc. Tyring to buy a little time at the expense of my health. During that cycle I look like crap - skin is bad, poor energy levels, and feel like crap from all the fat clogging my veins. So it's not much of a stretch to see why poor people could end up in this situation. During one of my college years, I always gained 5-10 lbs during finals week. I would essentially not shave, bathe or change clothes for a week, staying up all night studying, and eating crappy. I looked like a homeless guy. On addiction. I think cigarettes are the most addictive besides coffee. Heroin addicts quit heroin before they quit smoking. Quitting takes will power, discipline and commitment. |
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#50 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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First off, I don't think it is just lower income people in the West that are fat. Obesity is a problem across all income strata.
Secondly, it isn't just fast food that is the issue. The issue is processed food. I cannot find the statistic now but I was reading recently that the average person needs roughly 1500 calories per day. To purchase 1500 calories of healthy, fresh food, costs around $5.00 to $6.00. To purchase the same 1500 calories in processed foods... $1.50 to $2.00. Have a look at the supermarket the next time you are there. Have a look at how the food aisles are set up. Where are the healthy foods in relation to the processed foods? How are processed foods marketed vs. fresh? Processed food is not only higher in calories, it is usually ready to consume (marketed as time saving). High in the ingredients list of most processed foods is High Fructose Corn syrup (or other starches and sugars derived from corn). The US subsidy of the farming industry has left you with a massive surplus of corn that scientists have worked hard to find uses for. It has been used in everything from Coke and Cereal to Bread and Canned Goods. The interesting thing is that it frequently isn't being used as a substitute for a previously used ingredient (like substituting cane sugar for corn sugar) but rather is being used in addition to the other substances (e.g. it is added to the top of mass produced bread to make sure it goes that lovely shade of golden brown). The end result is higher calories and lesser quality foods at cheaper prices. I haven't even got into the ideas of portion control, high starch diets being cheaper than low (i.e. pasta, potatoes, etc.), the deep fryer vs. baking, junk food for snacks... etc. The whole food supply and how it is consumed is problematic in the west. Food is cheap there. Bad food is cheaper. You can eat excessive calories and stuff yourself and still be on a budget. This has nothing to do with your income level.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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#51 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
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Thing was, there usually wasn't ANY shelf space for healthy food, because it didn't exist. Tasty Kakes were readily available (typically 20+ grams of fat in one muffin!), as was whole milk, white bread, non-baked chips, Stouffer's full-fat frozen dinners, high-sugar cereals, non-diet soft drinks, full-fat franks, and the like. There was usually some overripe, if not rotting fruit and tomatoes, though the supply of potatoes and onions was decent and plentiful. There was maybe one "supermarket" in the whole area, and you had to walk a hell of a long ways to get there (or take the bus... neither of which are very fun in 90+ degree weather with very high humidity). My job was to check and see how many low-fat, healthy options there were for people in low-income areas. It turned out that there were almost none. In a few places, on the margins of the ghetto (near the gentrifying areas, or around colleges like Temple or Penn), there were shops with some healthier foods. But otherwise, it was all shit to eat. Occasionally I would find a loaf or two of whole-wheat bread, some good bananas, and low-fat milk... but these were usually on the edge of expiration, and when I asked the owners about why they didn't stock more, they said that the stuff never sold well and demand was low. People didn't seem to know or care about the healthy food, and it was usually more expensive anyway. They went with what they knew, what they grew up with... the Stouffer's meatloaf, Tasty Kakes, and gobs and gobs of high-fructose corn syrup, as Charlie said. Now, this gives some evidence to the cultural debate and education levels, but it also points to income and the inability of many of the residents to afford the big supermarket and the means to get there. You could argue that they could kill two birds with one stone by walking 30 blocks to the supermarket and burning calories in the meantime, but shit... in a Philly summer? I don't think I'd even make it. Maybe it's culture and education. Maybe it's the built environment and the unwillingness of city planners to create a healthy living space and access to decent food in low-income areas. Maybe it's all of the above, added up with something else altogether. But I saw it with my own eyes. And I don't know how many of us would act so differently, given the same circumstances.
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran Last edited by abaya; 05-25-2007 at 05:49 PM.. |
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#52 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Calorie to calorie, yes it's cheaper.
Full to full? That's another story. An apple has, on average, 81 calories. A Big Mac without cheese has 576 calories. Imagine you had a choice: 1 Big Mac, or 7 apples. Which would fill you up more? I'd guess the apples. 1 Big Mac = 7 apples 6.6 bananas 7.5 heads of lettuce 9.6 pears apple = $.56 per (at Safeway), x 7 = $3.92 I'm not sure how much a Big Mac is, but I think the point is clear. You can get more healthy food for cheaper. |
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#53 (permalink) | |
Kick Ass Kunoichi
Location: Oregon
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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/ma...a17c0e&ei=5070 Here are some other things to consider: our food supply systems into the inner cities of the United States do not work well. The availability of fresh produce in those areas is low. Consider NYC: most produce found at local bodegas is badly bruised and low-quality. Where is a poor person supposed to get their greens? This has led to an expansion of the NYC Greenmarket program, and allows users of food stamps to purchase produce at Greenmarkets. As far as I've read on the issue, that is really the only place for low-income residents to get good produce--the other choice is Whole Foods, and obviously an apple from Whole Foods is going to cost a lot more. The fact is that it's a combination of lack of resources, lack of time, and lack of education about nutritional options and programs. People who work 40+ hours a week are exhausted at the end of the day, and and so they want to have foods that are easy to prepare. As Charlatan already pointed out, these prepared foods (the kind you find for cheap in the center aisles) are not the best nutritionally, but they are easy to make and don't require much skill. Lack of money leads them to choose something cheap, lack of time leads them to choose something fast, and lack of skill leads them to choose the easiest option. The fact is, modern American society is too busy working to learn how to cook--and this extends up into the middle class, as evidenced by the proliferation of outfits such as Dream Dinners and Super Suppers, and it's evidenced by a recent piece by Dr. Gupta on CNN about blaming working mothers for childhood obesity (Dr. Gupta's piece concluded that it was a variety of factors). Economically speaking, the United States is putting a lot of people between a rock and a hard place regarding food quality and security. We are subsidizing hundreds of acres of crops that are going to do nothing but make us fat (thank you HFCS). With the decline in secure blue collar labor, the squeeze is on lower middle class families to have two working parents in order to make ends meet. Additionally, we are only beginning to increase access to locally grown crops and quality produce everywhere. Those of us who live in the suburbs take our sanitized Safeways for granted. The fact is, a great number of people in our country do not shop at Whole Foods or Safeway. They shop at Wal-Mart or the local corner store, because the first is cheaper and the second is easier and the most accessible. When you're exhausted, poor, and stressed out, you take a break where you can get it.
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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau |
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#54 (permalink) |
Upright
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The idea that poor people are lazy is offensive. Taken to the next logical step you'd say that the poverty is self induced. A myth propagated by the rich to cover their responsibility.
Wealth causes poverty. The so called Third World wasn't poor until capitalism invaded and took its toll, sucking the life out of every country it bestowed with its benevolence. You're not convinced? History will back me up but be careful of which historian you trust. The Roman Empire, The British Empire The Empire of the US they're all responsible. Greed and capitalsim are one in the same, they oppose democracy it's their enemy. |
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#55 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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#56 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Here's the real question...
If farm subsidy didn't exist, and processed foods were not cheaper would the poor be able to afford to eat? If we had to pay the "real" cost of food, would the American way of life collapse?
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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#58 (permalink) | ||
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Also, I too believe that this whole issue isn't just about poor people. I think your risk of being overweight or obese is increased by a number of factors. Here's one example; below is an interesting list of stats: Quote:
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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#59 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Washington
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Re: To topic starter...
Well, think of it this way: Maybe they aren't poor and "fat," but poor because they are "fat..." I mean, I eat fastfood a lot, and it adds up quickly! A practical meal from Jack In the Box or McDonald's is $6.00 or more... |
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#60 (permalink) |
...is a comical chap
Location: Where morons reign supreme
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Having worked for 2 supermarket chains, I'll tell you what the cheapest food is...it's not rice and beans, it's Top Ramen. It's store brand macaroni and cheese and store brand vienna sausages and store brand Hamburger Helper and Rice a roni. It's certainly not fresh produce and it's certainly not lean cuts of meat or quality cheese or milk. If you want cheap cheese, it's pastuerized processed cheese food. Store brand canned veggies are cheap too...but canned veggies have very little nutrition, though plenty of people don't know that. It's the same cost to buy a box of store brand cookies or crackers as 2 or 3 good sized apples, and if the cookies are on sale...it's cheaper. More "exotic" produce like melons, plums, oranges, decent tomatoes, actually pretty much anything but bananas, potatoes, or onions, are even more expensive than the apples (unless they are on sale). If you are looking to feed your family and get the most for your money, then that's what you buy...processed, easy to prepare foods that are full of fat, sugar, and preservatives.
When I was a cashier, I got to know a lot of my customers fairly well. I worked in a low income area, and many of the people held two jobs to support their families. Most weren't lazy; they were stressed, tired, and trying to make their dollar stretch as far as possible, regardless if they were fat or not.
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"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa Last edited by Grasshopper Green; 05-25-2007 at 08:27 PM.. |
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#61 (permalink) | ||
Huggles, sir?
Location: Seattle
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Jesus. ![]() Quote:
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seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames Last edited by seretogis; 05-25-2007 at 08:30 PM.. |
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#62 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Ontario, Canada
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I don't know if I am really buying the whole argument that poor people are fat. Where is this information coming from? If you see a fat person who is poorly dressed, it doesn't mean they are poor necessarily. I don't recall walking into a grocery store and thinking that the healthier foods are more expensive, in fact I think they are cheaper.
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Who wants a twig when you can have the whole tree? Last edited by pornclerk; 05-25-2007 at 09:41 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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#63 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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8kg. $7.69 ($0.10/100g) Unico Black Beans: 398ml $0.99 ($0.18/100ml) (Prices in $CDN) ...so, 100ml of rice (doubles when cooked) and 100ml of beans would cost $0.28 and could possibly be one serving. This would be even cheaper if you bought a large bag of dry beans instead of canned. I don't recall seeing many deals for $0.28 boxes of mac and cheese (which require added milk and oil). And a serving of Ramen or sausages don't have the same balance of nutrients as rice and beans... they might even be more expensive than the rice and beans in this case, too. If people shopped in bulk and planned ahead, their food costs would plummet.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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#64 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: hiding behind wings
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pornclerk says:
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A university here is working on that- we're trying to explain nutrition, cheap and fast but healthy recipes, and how to stretch a meager amount of food benefit dollars- but it's hard to make some of the ideas stick. I know just how easy it is to buy ramen and have a quick, crappy, nutritionally empty meal rather than cook the rice and the beans. Back to the OP, though- this really is part of the problem. The "bad" food is easier and tastier, and you don't have to work for it.
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Screw tradition! |
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#65 (permalink) | ||
My future is coming on
Moderator Emeritus
Location: east of the sun and west of the moon
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http://jech.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/59/8/670 (Conclusions: Obesity, diabetes mortality, and calorie consumption were associated with income inequality in developed countries. Increased nutritional problems may be a consequence of the psychosocial impact of living in a more hierarchical society.) http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1448278 (from Finland - findings showing it's not just low income that's linked with obesity, but in fact obesity is linked with income as a gradient. Results. Compared with their normal-weight counterparts, obese women with higher education or in upper white-collar positions had significantly lower income; a smaller income disadvantage was seen in overweight women with secondary education and in manual workers. Excess body weight was not associated with income disadvantages in men.) http://www.nber.org/digest/feb03/w9247.html ("The incidence of obesity is most prevalent among those sectors of the workforce (chiefly low-end wage earners, women, non-whites) whose real income has fallen even as more hours are devoted to work.") It's not just in the US - I found studies from Thailand, Finland (above), the UK, Canada, etc. We're not just making this up based on anecdotal evidence. Quote:
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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France |
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#66 (permalink) | ||
Huggles, sir?
Location: Seattle
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Any time that you look for convenience you will be sacrificing something for it. This is true of anything. Use an ATM? You sacrifice practically all customer service you would receive if you went into a bank and spoke with a bank teller. Buy pre-sliced, pre-cooked sandwich meat? You are sacrificing some healthiness thanks to preservatives and such in exchange for being able to take it right out of the package. Anyone who understands that "nothing is free" will comprehend this trade-off. Unfortunately Welfare-State programs reduce our most-poor to a state in which they expect things for free, and feel they are entitled to them. Therefore, they do not understand the notion of trade-offs, of positive and negatives, of working to better themselves physically and economically. ![]()
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seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames Last edited by seretogis; 05-26-2007 at 10:01 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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#68 (permalink) |
Tilted
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Personally, I think that the whole Atkins bullshit has something to do with it. From listening to my average intelligence parents talk about how fruit is bad because it contains carbs, and a big greasy pile of bacon is ok. I can completely understand why there are so many fat people out there. These people who eat at McDonalds and think they are doing themselves a favor by throwing out half the bun are just fooling themselves and buying into another simple but wrong solution.
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#69 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: hiding behind wings
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seretogis says:
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Screw tradition! |
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#70 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
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#71 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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#72 (permalink) | |
Browncoat
Location: California
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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek |
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#73 (permalink) | ||
Huggles, sir?
Location: Seattle
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Stagnation suggests laziness, and lack of forethought / determination / intelligence. If I did nothing but go to work at 9am and leave at 5pm, doing the same job over and over for 10 years, I would be lazy. Luckily, I constantly have a project or three going on the side in hopes of expanding my skillset and becoming a more valuable asset to myself in the process. A relevant link/story: http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/The-Indexer.aspx click to show Quote:
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seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames |
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#74 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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So let me rephrase for you ![]() Taco Bell's Crunchwrap Supreme is awesome (I love 'em) ... but the 700+ calorie cost is just not worth it to me (not to mention the artery clogging). Yet, I see people eating them every day at lunch. Add the 32 oz. of Mountain Dew that most students drink and you're talking a 1000+ calorie lunch. Then there's the snacks and Starbucks drinks. You get my point. These kids can AFFORD to eat healthy; presumably they have a pretty good education since they are going to this particular school and yet they STILL eat badly. |
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#75 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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it seems to me that there is abundant information already in this thread to show that what is clearly lazy and stupid is the idea that anything about either poverty of obesity--not to mention their intertwining--can be explained by saying that the poor are lazy and stupid.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#76 (permalink) |
My future is coming on
Moderator Emeritus
Location: east of the sun and west of the moon
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Blaming the poor for their own plight is a tasty little ideological morsel that lets us all off the hook and blurs the lines of a complex situation. Every time we get into this argument it always comes back to the same face-off: Argument 1: people are 100% responsible for their own situation; Argument 2: social factors overwhelm individual choice, making it harder to choose your own path.
IT'S ALWAYS BOTH/AND, PEOPLE!!! It's a poor excuse for a society that doesn't have some kind of back-up plan for when Plan A (100% personal responsibility) doesn't work, and it never will. Walk a mile in someone else's shoes (say, an average-intelligence kid born into a dysfunctional family with limited means) and see how much indomitable free will you feel like you have. It's difficult to make educated choices that are in your best interest when the options and information at hand are somewhat limited by institutional and social factors beyond your control.
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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France |
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#77 (permalink) | |
part of the problem
Location: hic et ubique
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onward to mayhem! |
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#78 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Quote:
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 05-27-2007 at 04:50 AM.. Reason: Edited for clarity. |
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#79 (permalink) | ||
Location: Iceland
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Quote:
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem convinced that "poor people" are, in effect, lazy and stupid.
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
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fat, people, poor |
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