squeeeb

d'jever notice lots of "poor" people are fat? why is that? you would think being poor would mean they are starving, and so they would be skinny. a few hundred years ago, being fat meant you were wealthy and well off, a status symbol, and now only the "rich" seem to be able to be thin.

the only thing i can think of is that "poor" people buy cheap food, which is processed, which is unhealthy, which makes you fat. taco bell, mcdonalds, etc, all have $1 menus, you can eat there every day cheaply, and that will make you fat.

i use the terms "rich" and "poor" reletively. thing is..i've seen real no kidding poverty. those people were skinny, unhealthy skinny, because they didn't have money for food. they also didn't have a radio, clothes, cigarettes, or a car, or a phone, etc. many "poor" americans are living better than poor folks in other countries.

but i see homeless americans (real homeless, the guys sleeping on the side of the road with shoes so old thier feet stick out) who are fat, and i wonder, how can you be fat if you are starving and poor?

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Sweetpea

lower income individuals don't have typically have the money to buy proper nutrition for themselves. Two bucks goes a long way at a fast food place, whereas, a yogurt costs a dollar and doesn't fill one up.

Plain and simple, it's expensive to eat healthful foods and when it comes down to having the money to eat or not eat, I understand why someone would choose fast food. And if that's all you're inputting into your body, weight gain is going to happen.

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The_Jazz

Starvation doesn't really exist in this country. Even the homeless get fairly regularly.

Otherwise, you're right on the money. Cheap food is processed food and lacking in a lot of nutritional needs. That doesn't mean that folks aren't getting enough calories (the opposite actually), just that they aren't getting the right stuff. That kind of diet will lead to weight gain since the body basically gets high-carb foods without much protein or trace elements.

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Sweetpea

Actually some amount of starvation, malnutrition and hunger does happen in this country and more than you would think. This includes many families who just plain do not know where they next meal is coming from and children are often the ones who suffer, many people in this country actually go to bed hungry. In my work in Human Services, I have seen it for myself.

stats:

"Hunger Facts: Domestic

Hunger persists in the U.S.
35.1 million people—including 12.4 million children—live in households that experience hunger or the risk of hunger. This represents more than one in ten households in the United States (11.0 percent). 1


3.9 percent of U.S. households experience hunger. Some people in these households frequently skip meals or eat too little, sometimes going without food for a whole day. 10.8 million people, including 606 thousand children, live in these homes.1


7.1 percent of U.S. households are at risk of hunger. Members of these households have lower quality diets or must resort to seeking emergency food because they cannot always afford the food they need. 24.4 million people, including 11.8 million children, live in these homes.1


Research shows that preschool and school-aged children who experience severe hunger have higher levels of chronic illness, anxiety and depression, and behavior problems than children with no hunger. 2 "

http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-ba...-domestic.html

Thanks,

sweetpea

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seretogis

Maybe it's because some poor people are lazy, which make them both fat and poor. They can spend $4 on McDonalds, or they can spend $4 on a loaf of bread, some sliced meat, and a head of lettuce, and make sandwiches for a week which are a fuck-load more healthy.

How about we examine the choices, intentions, and lifestyle of those who are considered "victims" before we go after third parties with completely baseless accusations of wrong-doing. It is not McDonald's fault if you're fat. It's your fault, because you are fucking eating at McDonald's.

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The_Jazz

Sweatpea, I think I used "starvation" incorrectly, although I'm struggling to come up with an alternative. In my mind, it is much more of an immediate health threat and cause of death in the mold of a concentration camp or drought-plagued area.

Your use, which is much more accurate I think, would (again in my mind) be more akin to rural Mississippi in the 40's and 50's when malnutrition was rampant.

Loaf of bread - $0.89
Sliced meat - 1/2 lb at $2.99 per 1/2 lb (the usual grocery store measurement)
Head of iceberg lettuce - $1.29

I get $5.17 before taxes. Let's leave aside for a moment that iceberg lettuce has very little nutritional value, although it is the most popular one sold (it is a good source of fiber). Or the fact that the bread would be the highly processed and devoid of much nutritional material. How do you make a half pound of meat stretch for a week without going hungry on 1 meal a day?

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squeeeb

i didn't refer to anyone as "victims," i called them poor people. i never went after third parties or accused fast food places of any wrong doing. i dont' know what thread you are referring to.

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Kadath

I think seretogis' point was that there are better ways to spend your 4 bucks.

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The_Jazz

I think that you're right, but what's the nutritious alternative that's going to be filling?

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seretogis

Assuming that your prices are reasonable, that would be $5-6 for several days worth of food, not just $4 for a burger and fries for one meal. Lazy poor people are fat, not "poor people" in general. They are fat not beause they don't get enough vitamin A, D, E, but because they eat foods with high calories, fat/saturated fat/trans fat. Even day-old bread at a bakery is cheap, lasts longer, and is better for you than McDonald's garbage.

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squeeeb

$4 will buy you a bag of beans and a bag of rice. together they make a complete protien. cabbage is about 35 cents a head. grains and beans and many vegetables are cheap, not to mention if you can get coupons. you can eat healthy and cheap, you just have to be willing to change your diet. thing is, if you are truly no kidding starving, you won't be picky.

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Cynthetiq

Spanish people use simple single slices for their sandwiches. Extrapolating that to the sliced ham, cold cuts, each slice is one sandwich. I never new the glory of a stuffed sandwich let alone an overstuffed one utnil I moved out on my own.

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highthief

I disagree with this "poor people have to eat at Rotten Ronnie's" mentaltity.

Not sure what the prices in the US are, but in Canada, if I were to feed my family at McD's, even going with the cheapest options, it's still about $12-13 with taxes for one meal.

I could make a big pot of rice and beef, or tuna and pasta, or any number of nutritious, filling meals that would feed us all for several meals for that same money.

I don't know what the factual evidence is for the poor being fatter - yeah, I see fat poor people, I see a lot of fat middle class people too.

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dirtyrascal7

I agree with the notion that it has more to do with laziness than anything else. There are plenty of good foods that are cheap... but not a whole lot of good foods that are ready-to-eat. If you watch the food network, you'll see that 90% of the meals cannot be prepared in 3-steps or less.

Also, I hate to say it... but it also has a lot to do with marketing and packaging. There are lots of commercials for fast food and junk food... but when was the last time you saw a commercial for apples or bananas? These lower-income families fall victim to that marketing because they essentially don't know any better.

Education of proper dieting is the first step. Someone needs to teach these families exactly how they can stretch their income further and receive proper nutrition by doing the extra planning and preparation by eating healthier foods.

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aberkok

There's probably a correlation between income and education. It takes some know-how to be able to plan your diet effectively on a tight budget. If you're poor, you may not be in circumstances which lead you to know that rice and beans are the way to go.

I think there's also a cultural aspect. I wonder how many poor people are fat outside of North America. The dominant flavors in our society are fat, salt, cheese and sugar. If you're brought up on McDonald's it's torture to eat actual beans. Most people probably don't even know what a decent tomato tastes like.

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seretogis

Please find me someone that doesn't know that an apple is more healthy than a small order of McDonald's french fries. It is common sense, something that Subway is making millions and millions of dollars off of.

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abaya

This actually made me laugh...

As for the difference between an apple and fries... well hell, I try to eat my apples-a-day and all, but DAMN. Hot, salty fries just taste better. I'm not poor, and I'm not fat, but it's still effin' hard to resist McDonald's fries if they're easily accessible. That's why I just try to avoid the place altogether.

Living in Iceland, poor people ain't eating McD's though... everything is 2 to 3 times the price it is in the US, which makes a family of 4 at McD's about a $100. Yeah. The rich and middle-class people are the fat ones, here. I don't think it's that much different in the US.

Also keep in mind that white-collar workers usually can afford gym memberships and have free time to go running, yoga, etc... whereas if you're a blue collar factory worker putting in 50-60 hours a week, you're not going to want to spend your free time in the downward dog position. Food, sex, sleep. That is about all I have the energy and time to think about, when I'm done at the factory... and I'm not even working half that many hours.

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Dilbert1234567

i can find a few... my mothers 2nd ex husbands daughters were dumb as a brick, i wouldn't put it passed them.

i'm a college student, money used to be very tight for me, especially when i had no job and all i was doing for money was day trading, durring those few months where income was sketchy at best, i lived on pasta. i'd pick up a small portion of meat, and a lot of pasta, i can make about a gallon of good meat marinara for about 5 bucks, pasta as we all know is dirty cheep, i could live off $40 a week, it was rough, and it sucked, but i did it.

this morning, i had shrimp Alfredo, a quarter pound of shrimp goes a long way if you slice it right, splash of cream, cheep white wine (2 buck chuck), salt and pepper, and were finished at about $5


however, not many people know how to make a good tasting meal for cheep, they'd rather go to a fast food place that tastes 'good' (i can't stand fast food, makes me sick every time) then take the time to make it them selves. remember a lot of the low income families, have 2 or 3 jobs, and have no real free time after work, so fast food is a quick alternative.

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filtherton

I live in a rather poor neighborhood, most of the people here aren't fat. Take this fact with another, namely that obesity effects people from every socioeconomic category I guess i don't see where the "poor" part happens to come in.

I think a more interesting question is why certain folks find it necessary to lump poor folks together in a package conveniently labeled with tired and misinformed justifications for their poverty. It's like they need some sort of way to blame the poor for their plight instead of the obvious and reality-based conclusion that american capitalism can't function without a broad underclass. "Poor people deserve their position because they are dumb and lazy" seems to be the underlying assumption. Which is why you get answers to the question in the op of the "well, it's obviously because they are lazy and stupid" variety.

Willravel

It's about addiction, not just about knowing something is healthy. Many, many scientists (people with bigger brains than I) have stated that fast food may be as addictive as heroine. One can become dependant on the high levels of sugar and fat found in fast food like one might find at McDonalds.

Yes, everyone knows that an apple is more healthy than fries, but if someone wants the fries more than the apple....you get the idea. As someone who is still battling with food addiction (mine was psychological, whereas the addiction to fast food is both psychological and physical), I can tell you it's not as easy as walking to Safeway instead of Burger King.

abaya

I agree with you completely. (I hope my post did not make any of those assumptions, but I apologize if it did.)

My point was that "poor" people are most likely working too hard for low pay to really have time or care for being "healthy" (and by working hard, they are therefore not "lazy," quite the opposite I would say!). I see it every day in the factory. When you are that tired, and you have no capital to speak of... yes, you want life to be easy. We all do. It's just that most of us (on this forum, I would guess) can afford to make our lives easier AND healthier... whereas many poor people can barely do either one, and comfort is going to take higher priority over health. Poverty demands a focus on the short-term, not on the long-term, because it's simply not financially feasible to think farther ahead than tomorrow or the next paycheck or meal.

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filtherton

Well, let me say that i'm certainly not not poor, and i eat just fine when i have the time. My diet is pretty healthy, and i generally get a good amount of exercise. I'm still overweight.

I think a more interesting question would be why people who aren't poor are fat. I mean, they obviously have the smarts and the money and the drive, right, so why on earth would they be fat? Could it be that there are other issues at hand?

seretogis

It really is that easy. A "want" is not a "need" and can be countered with sufficient will-power. The catalyst for change is wanting to change. If you do not want to be anything but fat and poor, then you are to blame for your "condition." Even a sniveling fool has the power to change themselves and their habits/routines for the better, if they want to. I don't buy the "everything is addictive" argument, as it seeks to explain away the absolute lack of restraint, willpower, common sense, and initiative that some people have and instead replace it with government funding.

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Willravel

You've obviously never been addicted to heroin.

seretogis

No, I am not an idiot. Is a Big Mac like heroin? I've had a Big Mac.

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Cynthetiq

real poor people are not fat.

Freeganisms show that there is plenty of food thrown away

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/07/freegans_tv.php

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seretogis

I don't know what Nicole Ritchie has to do with this, please stay on topic.

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Willravel

I had someone chastise me when I posted about gun laws, and rightfully so because I'm not familiar with gun laws. I'm not a scientist. I have a degree in psych, but even someone who spent 4 years studying things like addiction doesn't have the knowhow to say whether something is or isn't addictive to someone else. I have to wonder what training you've had that supersedes the training and experiments of the scientists in the article I posted.

Just fyi, some people can take heroin and not become addicted.

Tell you what, have a big mac every day for a week, then see if you crave one the next week. Now imagine you're poor and you find that the best spot to beg is in front of a fast food restaurant, where there's plenty of petty cash and change, so you eat 3 meals a day there.

seretogis

Again, there's that whole thing with me not being an idiot. Perhaps idiocy is the truly addictive substance, along with willful ignorance? Let's sic some scientists on that.

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Willravel

And your years of clinical experience with behaviorism and multiple PHDs can back that up?

Honestly, it's way more complicated than you think, and the fact that you keep repeating 'idiot' just makes you look insensitive and presumptuous. I'm not saying you are presumptuous, but if you keep insisting that addiction is a symptom of being an idiot, you're not going to make yourself look all that good. Again, I'm not an expert, but I do have some training and some experience with addiction. I can assure you that being addicted to something rarely has something to do with being an idiot.

Kadath

Guys, back off.

No one is addicted to fast food. To compare it to heroin is disingenuous.

To say that an addiction can be conquered by force of will is foolish and speaks out of ignorance of addiction.

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seretogis

Is "way more" a technical term used to describe a specific unit of complication? I don't have multiple PhDs, so I figured I'd better ask before I make myself look insensitive and presumptuous.

Addiction itself is separate from becoming addicted to something. Rather than comment on the hilarious "big mac = heroin" theory you're purporting, let's instead focus on heroin itself. Heroin is bad. It is an addictive substance. Do I want to become addicted to heroin? No. Do I, then, use heroin? No. Is heroin a necessary desire, a "need" for anyone? No. Should, then, anyone use heroin who does not seek to become addicted to it? No. Do people wake up one day addicted to heroin? No. At some point a heroin addict made a stupid decision, followed by another stupid decision, and then another. People who repeatedly make stupid decisions are idiots. I don't feel sorry for idiots when they destroy themselves. That said, I support the legalization of heroin.

Perhaps the issue is that the word "addiction" is used too loosely. "Addiction" to fast food, shopping, caffeine, peeping-tommery, etc is all conquerable by force of will. Heroin, crack/cocaine, etc are a different story, though the initial behaviors which result in the addiction are just as stupid as those of McDonald's "addicts."

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abaya

Seretogis, I'd appreciate your responses to posts other than Will's... e.g. mine, Filtherton, and Dilbert's. Let's have a discussion here, gents.

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World's King

Um... Poor people aren't fat.


AMERICAN'S are fat.

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Kadath

Americans are also bad at their native language.

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seretogis

As you wish.

I disagree. Stupidity demands a focus on the short-term, whereas someone who is genuinely poor but isn't stupid NEEDS to focus on a plan to a) exist, b) continue their existence, c) most importantly IMPROVE their existence. The poor stay poor if they focus only on the short-term. I may not have a PhD in Poverty, but I've lived off of 90 cents of food a day for six months before in order to save funds. It is not an insurmountable task to plan a year ahead and work towards a goal of self-improvement, it simply takes determination, forethought, and a minimal bit of intelligence.

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JumpinJesus

I swear to god, Americans have become a bunch of whiny victims.

How long before we're told that whining is addictive and people who whine about shit all day long just can't help it?

I've heard people bitch that portions at restaurants are too large, but what do they do? They eat every fucking thing that's put in front of them, then bitch that they ate too much.

I have no sympathy for fat people - I don't give a shit if it's genetic or not. You're not fat because you have a genetic problem; you're fat because you take in more calories than you burn - it's simple science and transfer of energy. Don't tell me you get fat because you ate one apple. You got fat because you ate 5 twinkies a day for 10 years and your only exercise was lifting the remote to change the channel.

Money has nothing to do with it.

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Willravel

I mention that because the people you're disagreeing with do have clinical experience and PHDs.
Ah the 'I'm sarcastic, therefore I'm right' fallacy.
This isn't my theory, this is the theory of scientists who have conducted studies and have evidence to suggest that the addictive properties of fast food are on par with those of heroin. Read the article.
...but just a few posts back you say that you've eaten a Big Mac. Aren't you making a stupid decision, then? How many times have you eaten fast food?
There are two types of addiction, physical and psychological. An addiction to shopping is psychological. An addiction to caffeine is both psychological and physical. An addiction to heroin is physical.


Speaking to the OP, one who is homeless is bound to have at least some psychological issues, and it's possible that those issues may lead to psychological addictions. If you combine that possible tendency to the possibility of certain unhealthy foods being physically addictive, and you may have an explanation as to why some homeless people are overweight. Homeless people probably are also under a great deal of stress, and their exercise is sporadic at best (some homeless people walk all day, some stand around all day). If you combine poor eating habits with stress and poor exercise, you have a recipe for weight management problems. That's the reason I think that some homeless people may be overweight.

Average_Joe

I see many valid points in this thread, but I think that the one I agree with the most is the point about processed foods. Nutritionally, they can make you fatter because of the high amounts of refined sugars and trans fats, and they are cheap to buy. Although I can also agree with the fact that some healthy foods are cost effective as well, processed foods are also easy to prepare and they taste good. When I was single and had to cook all of my meals all by myself, I often found myself grabbing a quick pizza or sub rather than preparing a salad because it was convenient, especially after a hard day at work. The hit I took for it was that the convienient food was less nutritious. I'm sure lower income people, who probably work more mentally draining jobs (waitress, cashiers, clerks) have little desire to prepare meals at the end of the day, especially if they are coming home to a house with children (and no spouse) or getting ready for another low end job at night just to make ends meet. Some might call this being lazy, but convience can bring peace of mind to those who have little peace in their lives.

About fast food and junk foods being addictive, there is scientific proof that this can happen. Once addicted, it's hard to break the addiction, even with high doses of will power. Withdrawal symptoms are common! Anyone who is interested in the addictive power of McDonalds food should go rent the movie "Super Size Me". Although the story is a bit one-sided, it really makes you think about the harmful effects of fast food.

Oh, and I believe that obesity can hit everyone equally (lattes and Haagen-das aren't health food), but lower-income people tend to fall into the trap more easily.

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powerclown

Yeah, its not a matter of being rich or poor. It's either genetic, or its issues of personality. I can't entirely blame people for taking shelter in addictions...life ain't always easy. I would imagine if people had a choice, they would choose not to be fat, or addicted to crack, or do other self-destructive things. Not everyone has the same amount of mental fortitude, sometimes its hard to have courage. Everyone has a weakness of one sort ot another. In saying that, the choices people do make are their own.