Social Experiment Forum

[Sharon]

On a much more mundane concern of mine - I saw in one of the threads that an administrator at the time had used his/her privileges to check on a user to find out if they had returned under a different username. Apparently they did so by looking at the user's email address.

This worries me. Assuming the premise that anyone could gain administrator access, some stalker could use this to locate my email address / IP address. My email address happens to contain my full name (and my IP address could be used to trace my location), so in theory they could find out where I live etc. I have suffered from problems with stalkers in real life and I really don't need some internet psycho tracking me down especially with some of the kink I've posted here on TFP.

I have no problem with the administrators of this forum having access to that data, but doesn't the impact change considerably on CA where anyone can be admin?

[Carno]

I did a search, and nobody has posted anything under "ratbastid."

[spectre]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I don't know about that. Way back on the first page of this thread, I was interested. I went over there and tried to register, only to find that "ratbastid" was taken. I "hrmph"ed about that and haven't been back. Anything "ratbastid" has posted there wasn't me. And I haven't been there to see whether that user has posted anything or not.

I know the formal reputation system is self-contained over there. But can people's opinions and impressions from that site propagate back to TFP? Because I'm feeling somewhat the victim of an identity theft that happened before I set foot on that site.

Okay... I amend my statement. There is one innocent victim in all of this and his name is ratbastid. We need to fix this. Will the real ratbastid please stand up?

[abaya]

EDIT: Took me awhile to write this, so I missed the last few posts... apologies for overlooking those comments.

Originally Posted by shesus

If I have any regrets, it's the fact that I have been hanging on to the pleaser-side of my personality here. I should have stated things as I saw them and not worried so much if someone would be upset or pissed.

Yeah, I regret that too. I wish I had known how you really felt a long time ago. (I'm being serious; please do not read a sarcastic tone into that comment.)

And JJ, I can only speak for myself, but I honestly don't think anyone is "rallying around" anyone here. I know I've said my piece(s) about C:A, but I don't think I've sought or gained "allies" out of the whole thing, nor have I leapt to anyone's defense. I've no doubt gained some enemies... but hey, I pick up a few of those every time I post in TFP, woo-hoo (I actually miss one of them: Ustwo, where are you?).

Spectre, has anyone suggested that there were innocent victims? If so, please correct me. In my mind, everyone involved smelled like shit. Feel free to toss me in that pile of mud too, just for fun. I'm up for the wrestling, as long as it's all above-board, here on TFP. But I will not patronize that site.

My intention was basically to assess what was going on in the new forum, and to clearly state why I thought it was a bad idea. An idea, yes. Creative, yes. And it had tremendous potential. But it was poorly thought-out and poorly executed. I sincerely hope it grows into something better, for Hal's sake... but I'm not going to put my energy into "forum-building," other than by giving my honest criticism here.

[Halx]

I'm still puzzled about the poor thought and execution. I don't understand how this concept could have gone any other way and still be.. it.

[spectre]

Originally Posted by abaya

Spectre, has anyone suggested that there were innocent victims? If so, please correct me. In my mind, everyone involved smelled like shit. Feel free to toss me in that pile of mud too, just for fun. I'm up for the wrestling, as long as it's all above-board, here on TFP. But I will not patronize that site.

There is nothing you or anyone else watching did or have done that would cause me to throw you in the mud.

Basically, for me, I'm as level headed and nice in real life as I come off here and it takes a hell of a lot to upset me in any way. That said, I do have my limits of what I'm willing to tolerate from people, just like anyone else does. Push those buttons for a long enough period, and it will get a reaction from me. For me, people can say whatever they want about me and I'll just shrug it off. Now, tearing into someone who's been very cool to me, especially when it isn't deserved will set me off. I've let it slide in the interest of decorum here. There, I had that button pushed again for the last time I was willing to put up with it, and had nothing and no reason to hold back. People may think less of me for it, and fine, if that's how you feel. I'm no different, I just finally had enough of seeing a friend treated poorly followed by a statement looking for pity from the attacker.

I'm not claiming to be innocent in any way, and I don't deserve any sympathy, and neither does anyone else involved. I'm human, and saw unnecessary bashing, so I stepped in.

All of this said, I hope this is the last of the bleeding over to this forum. When I posted over there, I did so as a user of the site, and my status here had no bearing on me over there. I was as I am here, only I defended someone in the way I was allowed over there.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by spectre

There are no "innocent victims" in anything that went on over there.

Who implied there were? I took total responsibility for my actions yet see no one else doing the same.
When I'm wrong, silly me, I say I'm wrong. I have fully acknowledged that and apologized openly for it.
I'm not going to keep going over the same pothole.

Originally Posted by Sharon

On a much more mundane concern of mine - I saw in one of the threads that an administrator at the time had used his/her privileges to check on a user to find out if they had returned under a different username. Apparently they did so by looking at the user's email address.

This worries me. Assuming the premise that anyone could gain administrator access, some stalker could use this to locate my email address / IP address. My email address happens to contain my full name (and my IP address could be used to trace my location), so in theory they could find out where I live etc. I have suffered from problems with stalkers in real life and I really don't need some internet psycho tracking me down especially with some of the kink I've posted here on TFP.

I have no problem with the administrators of this forum having access to that data, but doesn't the impact change considerably on CA where anyone can be admin?

I think there's an option where your email can be hidden or you can check off that you don't wish to receive any. Worst case scenario, you set up a hotmail or gmail account strictly for the BS stuff.
My email addresses used were my regular ones. Since the namechange was temporary and wasn't a major concern regarding identity, the dual names were found because the only difference in the two was the ending digit (108 and 602 with the same name)
Had I wanted to be completely anonymous(and I've done this for other forums), I've set up a dummy email with a fake real name. It's also good for all the junkmail and spam that results sometimes from registering on sites(some sell that info).
The other consideration is that most people if not all would not abuse the temporary power they've acquired. But that's not a given and you take your chances no matter what you do.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by roachboy

for myself, though, i am not going to participate there until it morphs into something else. what is happening now is tedious and alienating.

This struck me. I have read the posts made since I went to work and this stuck out the most because of the sheer hypocracy of the statement.

Basically, RB goes on this long holier than thou rant.... (I am paraphrasing the real quote is above....) and says, "but when it is successful and the all the bugs have been worked out.... I'll be there and participate."

I had a great laugh from that. The self righteous, elitist, superior, attitude is priceless, but then to add that..... you are a prince.

Basically, you talk about how juvenile, immature, uneducated, uncooth everyone is over there..... but then you top it off with.... "once successful, I'll be there and enjoy the success..... but I'm too good to go over, set an example, work and try to make it something..." Bravo..... it cements my view that your condescension and egotism are your biggest and greatest assets... because just when I think you can't top yourself, you prove me wrong....

Bravo.

Correct me if I am wrong RB, please enlighten me... even though you pride yourself on your words and how well you convey what you want.....

[Menoman]

I'm a little late coming back to this..

I was not trying to put words into anyones mouth with my post, but it's totally true every thing I posted there.

Ever hear that dirty little joke, and you wanted to post it, ahh but sorry its about michael jackson....

Ever have someone come to these forums and not blatantly come out and be a twat, but they hang on your nuts and disagree with everything you or someone else says? You can't call them on it.

Every person here censors themselves, you can say you don't but you do in some way or another.

I'm not implying thats a bad thing for HERE, this site would most definatly not work without that type of thing, I was just saying that's how it is here, and thats not how it is there.



I'm not sure why a couple of you had to flip out on me for saying that, I can't imagine how its even argueable.



Furthermore, I wasn't telling anyone to go to anotehr forum for anything, I was explaining how censorship effects how people respect each other. You can respect someone on these forums, but if that's all you know of them, You don't really respect them, You simply respect the censored 'them' which 99 out of 100 times... isn't going to be the real them.

[jorgelito]

Maybe this is all growing pains. Perhaps given time, something can evolve, or it could die. Hence, experiment.

But the deliberations in this thread are very good. If you actually step back for a second and see what is happening here. People are talking, discussing, presenting - good or bad but at the very least, giving their honest (emotional) opinions on the matter. It's almost, group therapy-ish. It's almost another, unintended experiment.

It really is watching something happening live. And we're all a part of it in some way or another.

It's almost primordial.

Thus, it seems logical it would be an ugly, chaotic, unseemly process that could possibly produce fantastic results.

I don't know, but I suppose we could just throw caution to the wind and dive back in and give it another go.

Sooner or later, the dust will have to settle. Who really know what we will have created.

I'm strangely curious (but am still tentative. Maybe it's time to get my toes wet).

Some suggestions:

1. Reset - log back in under a different name and start over
2. Try starting new threads
3. Attempt to create order out of chaos

Just my opinions and thoughts here, nothing else.

Thanks for listening.

[Menoman]

Good suggestions.

1 Reset : Good point, though you'll still be annoyed by the same people. You can ignore them this time around if you want, or battle them again!

2 STart new threads : always need more threads, it's not like you can make a thread and it'll suck, coz..... who gives a shit right?

3 Create Order from Chaos : Personally I wouldn't bother, because it's going to either go this way or that way, the more you try to create order, the more you're feeding the people who are going for the true "Anarchy" system.

[mixedmedia]

Originally Posted by pan6467

This struck me. I have read the posts made since I went to work and this stuck out the most because of the sheer hypocracy of the statement.

Basically, RB goes on this long holier than thou rant.... (I am paraphrasing the real quote is above....) and says, "but when it is successful and the all the bugs have been worked out.... I'll be there and participate."

I had a great laugh from that. The self righteous, elitist, superior, attitude is priceless, but then to add that..... you are a prince.

Basically, you talk about how juvenile, immature, uneducated, uncooth everyone is over there..... but then you top it off with.... "once successful, I'll be there and enjoy the success..... but I'm too good to go over, set an example, work and try to make it something..." Bravo..... it cements my view that your condescension and egotism are your biggest and greatest assets... because just when I think you can't top yourself, you prove me wrong....

Bravo.

Correct me if I am wrong RB, please enlighten me... even though you pride yourself on your words and how well you convey what you want.....

I didn't read his post that way at all. And, in fact, he's saying nothing different than most of us ladies whom you've been so conciliatory to. Tell me this, what are you "directing" by doing whatever it is you're doing over there? How are you making it better? And what interest is someone supposed to have in forcing an internet forum into being "something else" just so they can carry on a discussion there when we have a place to do so right here? Like me, I think roachboy is saying I'll go where the real conversations are - and for now, that's here. If it's there later as well, then I will go there, too. But it is not incumbent on me or roachboy or anyone else to "make" CA into a place that fits our ideal.

I think you're grinding an axe in the living room when you ought to be grinding it in the barn (ie, the politics forum).

[shesus]

Originally Posted by jorgelito

If you actually step back for a second and see what is happening here. People are talking, discussing, presenting - good or bad but at the very least, giving their honest (emotional) opinions on the matter. It's almost, group therapy-ish.
It's almost another, unintended experiment.Thus, it seems logical it would be an ugly, chaotic, unseemly process that could possibly produce fantastic results.

I agree. The saying like, it gets the darkest before the dawn. TFP boasts about evolution. It has become stagnant for awhile now am emergence of susburban housewives and people with large egos has aided in this lack of evolution. As others have mentioned, people are walking around holier than thou. The thought of C:A being'juvenile, but once it becomes something more intelligent, then I'm all for it' doesn't fly. You want the prize, but you don't want to put any work into it. Have you heard of the story about the hen making the pizza?

I don't agree with Jorgelito in the open invitation. Not that people aren't welcome, but honestly, the people that are 'too good' for a place that is in its development and 'too good' to be honest with themselves this site isn't for. It's not for everyone and that's fine. Nobody is forcing anybody join, to surf the site annonymously, or even give a shit about it.

If you don't like it, stop talking about it and get over it. If you decide that you want to take part in not only a forum experiment, but also a chance to possibly evolve, come on over. But don't expect people to censor themselves. There are 'some' serious things over there, but most of all it's a playground. As hal mentioned, we're building it, then we'll decorate it, and then it will be clean enough for other people to visit. But now it's available for you to be a part of from the beginning and you are turning it down. Just stop moaning and judging and either join or leave it alone and stop obsessing over it.

[ShaniFaye]

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Some suggestions:

1. Reset - log back in under a different name and start over
2. Try starting new threads
3. Attempt to create order out of chaos

Just my opinions and thoughts here, nothing else.

Thanks for listening.

#1 whats the point? It does nothing for me to "be someone different" If I cant be myself I really have no interest.

#2 Daoust and I spent many threads doing that only only to get told by
Shesus (and having rep taken away) that "I didn't get the right memo" and was starting crap threads (which I might comment that a lot of the ones started since I left that first nite are just as stupid and meaningless and she sarcastically started a 'serious' thread there....wow) AND I got crapped on for saying the word "fuck" as in "lighten the fuck up" and now there are tons of STFU comments all over the place. Not to mention the insults that were thrown around to people that didn't say anything bad to anyone. No innocent victims my ass. As far as I'm concerned D and I took the time to try to help out Halx and have a good time WITHOUT personal attacks on anyone and chaos took over. (thats SOOO much JJ for taking the time to respond to my PM....not) and you've got "mods" banning people this morning just because "they don't like them" yeah, thats a real impressive use of "power"

As for hiding your email....you can't do that from an admin, checking the preference to hide your email addy only does it from the general public, not from anyone in "charge" so at any given time whoever has got power has access to IP's/Emails


As for Shesus statement on what strangers do or don't do I have to argue, I can't tell you the number of times the "strangers" of TFP had done things for me, without me even asking, and totally out of the blue and those of you involved in the wedding events, and surgery events and Dave being gone events know well what I'm talking about.

[shesus]

I'm agreeing that we disagree. It's impossible to argue with people who will not even lean one way or another. I understand that fact that it's not for everyone. I understand that people who don't know people are upset that they didn't know people.

I can't explain to you that, at least for me, a personality was not created. I really don't care and it's a waste of my time having a 'discussion' here about this. If this is the serious, open-minded places...I don't buy it.

Maybe, listen instead of taking offense. Maybe see some humor instead of getting pissed and defensive. Laugh a little, if it's not this find something that does because life is too short. I'm done with talking until this becomes a discussion instead of a confrontation. I can't make my points any clearer and I see your point, but it's not the only one or the 'right' one. There are different people in the world...accept that.

The Shins: Mine's Not a High Horse

After that confrontation
You left me wringing my cold hands
We shared some information
We might not recover from
And I watch your convictions
Melt like ice cubes in an ocean
You were so poorly cast as a malcontent

You've got them all on your side
That just makes more for doubt to slaughter
"I never knew he thought that!"
I heard you say falling out of the van
"Don't ask for his opinion
They ought to drown him in holy water"
Will you remember my reply
When your high horse dies?

[Supple Cow]

Originally Posted by Halx

I'm still puzzled about the poor thought and execution. I don't understand how this concept could have gone any other way and still be.. it.

Well, for one thing, I never mentioned poor thought and donor funds to suggest that it should be a certain way; my opinion is that it should never have been... at all. In the few years I've been here, I've seen multiple pleas for the members of this forum to step up and either (a) donate money to keep it running and/or ad-free or (b) link the site on our own personal blogs and sites to increase traffic. In this last couple of years I've been around, I even saw this effort escalate from a thread to an announcement that I had to confirm I had read by clicking a little button before I was able to access the site. I read the announcement, I clicked, and the couple of times I've had the money in my limited budget, I donated some of my dough.

Now you have created a site that I think is a phenomenally bad idea. It has already distracted me and a number of other members from our regular participation here, and I know that for me personally, it has soured my view of this forum and its creator more than it has done anything to elicit any opinion about the other forum's content. I would have left and not looked back the day this was created if it weren't for the fact that I still value the journals around here, and I would miss the people I like to keep up with. But here I am again, just sort of wondering how everybody will react to the hypocrisy later, when once again an authority figure over here decides that it's time to ask everyone to plug TFP so that we can get more traffic. Sure, no donor funds are being used for that other project, but that was never my concern. I think the traffic is a far more important issue here if we're talking evolution through social interactions. This just reminds me of how the makers of the movie Titanic thought there wasn't enough drama in the real story and had to throw in a torrid romance. Way to pander to the lowest common denominator, I guess.

I don't know how many more times I can say this. Maybe I even sound demanding. Maybe I am demanding something! I'm not sure what I'm after anymore. I don't think you're going to kill the forum just because I think it's a bad idea because it hurts the TFP. You're going to keep having your creative experiments no matter what anybody on the TFP says. I guess I'm just kind of sitting here thinking about when I thought TFP was worth donating to and wishing that I had my 30 beans back.

[aberkok]

Supple Cow, I'm inclined to agree with you. The more I look at C.A. and aim to post something, I just feel like I'm posting in TF Nonsense. What's the difference at the end of the day? Once (if) discussions rise above that level, I see no reason why that traffic couldn't have existed here.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by shesus

I agree. The saying like, it gets the darkest before the dawn. TFP boasts about evolution. It has become stagnant for awhile now am emergence of susburban housewives and people with large egos has aided in this lack of evolution. As others have mentioned, people are walking around holier than thou. The thought of C:A being'juvenile, but once it becomes something more intelligent, then I'm all for it' doesn't fly. You want the prize, but you don't want to put any work into it. Have you heard of the story about the hen making the pizza?

How is getting vile 'putting work into something? Once concerns over there were posted about it possibly becoming a 'popularity contest' and words to that effect, the feathers started to fly-people being accused of 'jealousy', of being petty, etc. and when called on those insinuations, instead of having an open mind and think maybe those accusations were off the mark, it got vile. I don't see that as 'work'. I don't even see it as discussion.

Originally Posted by shesus

I don't don't agree with Jorgelito in the open invitation. Not that people aren't welcome, but honestly, the people that are 'too good' for a place that is in its development and 'too good' to be honest with themselves this site isn't for. It's not for everyone and that's fine. Nobody is forcing anybody join, to surf the site annonymously, or even give a shit about it.

It's been made abundantly clear who is 'welcome'. But, here's the thing...it's not a 'club'. As for the statement about being 'too good', those are your words-no one else's and speak volumes.

Originally Posted by shesus

If you don't like it, stop talking about it and get over it. If you decide that you want to take part in not only a forum experiment, but also a chance to possibly evolve, come on over. But don't expect people to censor themselves. There are 'some' serious things over there, but most of all it's a playground. As hal mentioned, we're building it, then we'll decorate it, and then it will be clean enough for other people to visit. But now it's available for you to be a part of from the beginning and you are turning it down. Just stop moaning and judging and either join or leave it alone and stop obsessing over it.

Being blatantly insulting and mean is not evolution. Let me ask you this-all my guilty posts have been deleted. I think enough of myself to not want to be seen in such a horrible light and I have more respect for myself than to allow it. Of course, many things were quoted, but at least the original complete contents are gone. Who else is willing to do that? Is that what you want new people to see about you and keep it going that way?
I'm pretty sure that anyone just coming in from the cold to it, seeing the diatribes would only stay if they too were that vile. Is that what it should become?

[roachboy]

pan:

i understand that what anyone writes can be taken any number of ways, and that in a netforum tone is essentially a blank to be filled in. so you fill in what you want to find in the tone of the posts i put here. the only conclusion that i draw from that is that you obviously have a hair across your ass about roachboy....rather than do battle with your projections or mess about with the surface of barely controlled hysteria that you seem to confuse with an element of style, i'm going to just explain a couple things behind what i wrote earlier.


i am very interested in processes of self-regulation/direct democracy.
i have done a ton of research on the ways in which drect democracy has been thought about and argued for across the history of the left, from craft-based anarchism through revolutionary syndicalism to socialisme ou barbarie (a french revolutionary marxist group from after world war 2)....i think it an interesting and important conceptual and political question. for a while now, lots of folk that i know (one way or another) have argued that types of internet activity can function as models of self-management in 3-d life: people often point to how linux was developed or to other open-source softwares that have been collectively worked up: they point to various on-line communities. i am interested in these forms of collective work and at various points have checked them out and sometimes have worked up assessments based on my research work of their political potentials. the problem with the anarchy forum is not exclusive to that forum: you see the same kind of question coming up all the time in conversations with folk who see in forms of net activity a type of viable political model for thinking about 3-d life. and it is because i think such experiments important and potentially very interesting that i decided to say what i have said in this thread: the biggest advantage direct democracy could provide is a kind of direct control over the rules that shape how folk act and think, what they do and how they do it. but it seems that this is not always obvious to folk who launch these experiments, and that is fine--but i also think that it is equally fine to point that out. and pointing that out is not pissing on the project: it is simply indicating that there is another dimension of self-regulation that is important, that should be thought about. and that's it. that's all i meant.


so when i looked at the anarchy forum, my reaction came from this.

the second post was about linking the lack of an explicit process of self-regulation (and linking mod status to number of posts aint it) to the low quality of the posts. what linked them was the (apparent) lack of a sense of responsibility, and what enabled that lack of responsibility was the lack of the mechanisms above, and the pitch for the forum itself as a space of "no rules"---and you can see for yourself what happened.


so with that said, let's turn to turn to your post 168.















nada.
sorry.

[aberkok]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Being blatantly insulting and mean is not evolution. Let me ask you this-all my guilty posts have been deleted. I think enough of myself to not want to be seen in such a horrible light and I have more respect for myself than to allow it. Of course, many things were quoted, but at least the original complete contents are gone. Who else is willing to do that? Is that what you want new people to see about you and keep it going that way?

In the spirit of evolution and challenge, I'm going to make an analogy to what I do and the spirit of Miles Davis. Miles was very much against editing out mistakes from recordings. If there's one lesson musicians have learned from Miles it's that when you improvise, it's all you and we can project ourselves even through our mistakes. I am proud to say I didn't make any edits on my album. In my journals, I've tried to keep entries about times in Hong Kong when I behaved in a way that wasn't very becoming. I look back on those sometimes and learn a thing or two. Makes me think twice about how I deal with other people.

I haven't decided for myself whether deleting your posts on C.A. is the right thing to do, ngdawg, and obviously it doesn't matter what I think. I don't necessarily think you should arrive so quickly at the conclusion you did. Maybe it's better to leave them up?

The truth is important even when we look back and don't like what we see. Perhaps leaving your posts up would have given important context to the ugliness that went on over there.

To be clear, and you are a friend so I think it's important to be clear, I am not challenging your specific action, but the idea of erasing past ugliness.

[spectre]

ng, you really need to get over yourself. You're pretending to take the high road, when in fact, all of the people who "attacked you" were people who you've attacked or been downright mean to for a while now. They just finally had a place where they could vent their frustration because they didn't want to do that here. I've been trying to keep this off of this forum, but since you insist upon playing the victim here, it's about time the truth of the matter came out. You pushed a lot of people to their break points, and when they finally reacted, you got offended. Word of advice, don't keep poking the beehive with a stick if you don't want to get stung.

I'm not even going to bother arguing this point with you any more since you're clearly hell-bent on convincing everyone that you're a completely innocent victim in all of this, even though you "claim responsibility." If you don't think you're innocent in all of this, why is it still an issue to you?

Those that know me know that I never react like this on the board, but even I have my limits of what I'm willing to tolerate from people. I've been trying very hard to not react to a lot of this, but it's turning into a drama fest and I left high school long ago.

[Charlatan]

Where all of this is going...

As a concept, Concept:Anarchy is interesting. If I had the time, or the inclination I imagine it might be fun to participate in the experiment. Sadly I do not have the time or the inclination.

And that's OK.

I don't plan on participating over there any more than I already have, which was minimal at best. I wish C:A all the best and hope that as a Forum it can ride out this rough period and become a success.

I remember when TFP was young, some four or five years ago. It too, even with its rules was a lot rougher and a lot coarser (filter the politics forum so you can see posts from the beginning and see what it used to be like). Perhaps, this board *has* become a bit stultified. Perhaps it needed a kick in the ass like this, I am not sure.

There have been complaints about the moderation here and there have been applause for the same. Some feel the mods are overbearing and stultifying (or worse that they self censor so to avoid breaking the rules) other see the rules as what maintains the sense of order that allows discussions to remain civil.

I have been trying to figure out why this all feels familiar and I think I finally figured it out. What I am seeing here feels exactly like the big TFP split where a good chunk of mods and members were banned. They were banned mostly for trying to use the TFP to populate one of the mod's own boards. Further, they were openly hostile to members of the forum and specifically Halx.

This feels the same only it has the blessing of Halx.

TFP survived that event because it was largely shoved under the rug (at least as far as the average member could tell). The board went on to get stronger.

Perhaps this *will* shake things up and bring about something new. Perhaps not.

[ngdawg]

When have I attacked anyone? Feel free to pm them all to me. That's an open invitation, by the way.
And you keep using this 'victim' word like it's what's the deal. I'm not a victim, I was a participant. Deciding to delete my participation in a slugfest that got me just as dirty as anyone is, well, my decision.
I'm not the one who has to get over oneself, but I am the one who has to live with the actions I take. And when I feel they're in error, I make reparations. Iif that seems like self-victimization to you, then so be it.
If someone, anyone wants to be seen in a different context, that is certainly their choice. And if anyone wants to develop themselves by using the lowest part of themselves, again, it's their choice.
Changing one's mind is not victimization. Making correction to an opinion or action is not victimization. Holding a personal standard is not victimization.
Everyone is very quick to say I'm this, he's that and then announce 'well, I don't know anyone or care to'...I see hypocracy in that.
I have held the vast majority here in a level of respect, if not actually liking them from what I had seen. And for most, I still do.
If it's not an issue to YOU, why are you responding? Because you're getting defensive and deflective and attempting to justify something that many people turned from in disgust?
No one's behavior was stellar, including mine. And I will not justify it. And I will not allow myself to be or 'play' victim, here, there or anywhere else.
If putting myself on a high horse because (Heavens!!) I have admitted that I was wrong, so be it. I happen to be of the opinion that wrongs should be corrected whenever possible. If you think you were in the right in anything you do, that becomes obvious as well and just might be more revealing than the path I choose.
Either way, I certainly have the right to conduct myself one way and you another. And I don't believe I ever asked you to like it.

Edited to add: How is it that you keep accusing me of 'playing victim' but insist on taking your negative opinions of me public and doing it in now two forums? And for someone who used to be a peacemaker, it's, to me, beneath you. Seems to me you want me to do what you think I should do. Sorry to disappoint.

Originally Posted by Aberkok

I haven't decided for myself whether deleting your posts on C.A. is the right thing to do, ngdawg, and obviously it doesn't matter what I think. I don't necessarily think you should arrive so quickly at the conclusion you did. Maybe it's better to leave them up?

Even though a great deal of them are contained in quotes, I did not like what was staring back in my posts. I got defensive and while many things were posted as I laughed while typing, that's not the whole me- part of the real me, maybe, but it's a small part and, like putting on make-up to both conceal and make things 'better', deleting them was what I felt I needed to do. I simply did not like what I became as the tone became nastier-a part of a mob.
I also did so thinking 'what would a stranger-noobie think of this?' Since the remarks can't be totally gone as they're in quotes, the uglier side is still there, but I had to do what I did for my own peace of mind.
And don't sell yourself short, Aberkok. What you think does matter.

Edit: The threads now require a password (made public if you read through). Since no one in them was in their best-dressed(yes, including me, the 'victim') , at least it's a step forward.

[Carno]

The one thing that keeps coming to mind as I read this thread is... who cares? If you don't like the other forum, why bitch about it?

Do you think it should be shut down because you don't like what goes on over there? What exactly is it that you think should happen?

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by Carno

The one thing that keeps coming to mind as I read this thread is... who cares? If you don't like the other forum, why bitch about it?

Do you think it should be shut down because you don't like what goes on over there? What exactly is it that you think should happen?

I think now, in changing my mind again...it should stand or fall on its own.

[Willravel]

I'm trying to make it work, but I keep coming back to the moderation question. For those who have decided to leave, I know how you feel.

[abaya]

If you continue to respond, you feed the fire.

This is my last post on the subject.

[Carno]

Yes! She's gone, now we can say what we really think!

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by Carno

Yes! She's gone, now we can say what we really think!

I think she's an adorable person and very insightful. And yes, it's what I really think.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by willravel

I'm trying to make it work, but I keep coming back to the moderation question. For those who have decided to leave, I know how you feel.

But you are trying and that is what matters.

[Bill O'Rights]

I wandered in over there, out of curiosity. What I saw was akin to a classroom full of children after the teacher steps out. Mob rule. Well, says I, this is what it was about...not? Anarchy.
I left, knowing that In all likelyhood I would not return, as it is not in my taste. For those that enjoy it...fine. For those that frequent it...great. Have fun. Knock yourselves out.
All I ask is that what happens in C:A...stays in C:A. (Although, I suspect, that's not possible) Sometimes, in order to heal, a wound must be opened, allowed to fester, dry out and then heal. I hope that is all that we have going on here.

Personally...I tend to agree with Miss supplecow. I think that this was a monumentaly bad idea. But, now it's there. And I feel that the 800lb gorilla is always going to be left in this room.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by willravel

I'm trying to make it work, but I keep coming back to the moderation question. For those who have decided to leave, I know how you feel.

I admire the tenacity of anyone who would stick around anyplace that, in its youthful stage, is only either acidic or nonsensical with no rhyme or reason.
You, Pan, Tec etc., hopefully will be catalysts to steer chaos into quality.
But, as evidenced in this thread, chaos does not understand boundaries.
My respect for quite a few has diminished greatly and the disappointment I've been feeling in them is overwhelming-it is obvious they don't care and refuse to believe that they were actually liked and respected based on their personas here. By the same token, personally, my respect for others has grown as I observe them rise above the fracas that ensued. I have been having conversations with others that, believe it or not, like talking to me -their views are similar.
There's been a lot of mentioning of 'censorship' as it pertains to TFP, but why is being civil equated with censorship? Why is chaos and mudslinging and nastiness held in high esteem? I don't get what thrill people receive from it.
If it's to let off steam, there are better ways, I'm sure.
No one in real life presents only the worst of themselves in the hopes of being respected and this is no different; yet, it seems to be the expectations now.
We have lost a great deal of really fine people because of the actions of one or two just here. Is animosity and the lowest common denominator really worth losing more? Life's short and it's a day game. Going out of one's way to make others uncomfortable, defensive, disgusted is just a stupid way to behave. Those that get uncomfortable, defensive and disgusted are not going to stick around much and haven't. That's not diversity or evolution nor is it some place to enjoy.
I really hope that those who brought their personal issues here are satisfied with that choice. It could very well turn out that more than one of us has shot themselves in the foot.

[Sultana]

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

All I ask is that what happens in C:A...stays in C:A. (Although, I suspect, that's not possible) *snip* I feel that the 800lb gorilla is always going to be left in this room.

Once the church group starts a roller derby team, church is never quite the same.

[Halx]

I just can't bring myself to sympathize with the negative attitudes regarding the idea. I might add, that in some way, this thread has infused many of you with a sense of passion for not only the TFP, but for the debate of decent governing principles. You may not like the rouse, but the TFP is merely a rock, floating in a galaxy of planets and stars - it's good to see some life here after all.

Would you believe that back about 4+ years ago, the TFP was in the top 2000 websites on the internet, by traffic? Do you know where it is right now? 126,477. We're at one of the lowest points of traffic in our history. There are many reasons for this, and I'm going to explain why this thread HELPS.

The first reason is obvious: stagnation. As great as the community is, its going nowhere. We have a slow trickle of users coming in from random searches on Google. That's all.

Second: Isolation. We have no incoming traffic except for search engine traffic. They're not searching for an internet forum, they're searching for a specific subject, and when they find it, they move on. Nobody links us from their blog. Nobody talks about us on other forums.

Third: Bland content. Yes, the TFP community is great, polite, intelligent and clever. But we have little to show for it. This is where C:A starts to help. This thread alone appeals, but it's going to take more. I look at other, more successful websites and they have a few things going on that I notice we have none of. Their users are just as tight, just as open, just as passionate. But they also produce content instead of just talking about news articles. When you're browsing on one site, and find a link to a forum, what does that link contain?

1) An interesting or amusing incredible anecdote that illicits laughter or disbelief.
2) A story of customer service or legal injustice with full documentation.
3) A comprehensive walkthrough or explanation on a particular subject that people are interested in.
4) A humorous list or compilation.
5) Discussions on unique events with diverse and well-thought responses.

This is the stuff that is passed along between websites. These are the passages through which users flow into a community. We have none. We are not worthy of users to just link.

Fourth: Rigidity. We're fighting against the grain on this one. We might think that our rules are what makes the TFP a great framework for a community, but we're also limiting our potential userbase. This is something I'm not willing to give up, which is all the more reason to work on the other things.


And while C:A is an abomination of an idea and is causing toxic conversation to spill into the TFP, it is not siphoning members away. And while some of my stakeholders disagree with its very presence, I must state the fifth reason why we are suffering.

Five: No outbound traffic. This might sound preposterous, but it's not. The most popular sites on the internet are the ones that lead you to other sites. Become a source of interesting content, both in-house and externally, and people will frequent you. From there, they will build a relationship and participate.

As I said, the TFP is just a rock, floating in a vast universe, alongside much more vast and dense bodies. We need to change a little.

I hope you'll read this and see my point. I don't expect you to agree with the C:A forum as an entity, but I hope you'll understand that it doesn't hurt. Yes, your friends may be arguing, but none of this was originated with the forum. Its good to air out some things.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by pan6467

But you are trying and that is what matters.

Ditto

[Halx]

Oh Bill, I like your sig. It speaks volumes here.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by Halx

I just can't bring myself to sympathize with the negative attitudes regarding the idea. I might add, that in some way, this thread has infused many of you with a sense of passion for not only the TFP, but for the debate of decent governing principles. You may not like the rouse, but the TFP is merely a rock, floating in a galaxy of planets and stars - it's good to see some life here after all.

Would you believe that back about 4+ years ago, the TFP was in the top 2000 websites on the internet, by traffic? Do you know where it is right now? 126,477. We're at one of the lowest points of traffic in our history. There are many reasons for this, and I'm going to explain why this thread HELPS.

The first reason is obvious: stagnation. As great as the community is, its going nowhere. We have a slow trickle of users coming in from random searches on Google. That's all.

I think it's more than that. Anyone with $100 and a computer and a tutorial can start a website or forum and that is what's happening. I have a plethora of sites that I bookmarked...I go into only 3. No longer is it just something a person with your intelligence can achieve. Just quoting that 126,477 should tell you something. It's staying power and TFP has stayed when others have died. Numbers don't mean crap(unless you're at the bottom of the barrel and that's always temporary, as is being on top.) Racist sites, sites that cater to specific groups all have members; if you want to be huge, you could make this an all-hispanic site or an all-Indian site and be right up there with the others. I'll take the diversity, thank you. I'd rather be small and have integrity than be something akin to DeviantArt.

Originally Posted by Halx

Second: Isolation. We have no incoming traffic except for search engine traffic. They're not searching for an internet forum, they're searching for a specific subject, and when they find it, they move on. Nobody links us from their blog. Nobody talks about us on other forums.

I do all the time. Tec has brought people here from other forums. /me bows in Mixedmedia's direction... I know other members here have come from member's suggestions-I did. (and no, not telling who!) How many of us have blogs? I use the journal for that. (I'd still go with the t-shirt idea tossed around a couple years back....)

Originally Posted by Halx

Third: Bland content. Yes, the TFP community is great, polite, intelligent and clever. But we have little to show for it. This is where C:A starts to help. This thread alone appeals, but it's going to take more. I look at other, more successful websites and they have a few things going on that I notice we have none of. Their users are just as tight, just as open, just as passionate. But they also produce content instead of just talking about news articles. When you're browsing on one site, and find a link to a forum, what does that link contain?

1) An interesting or amusing incredible anecdote that illicits laughter or disbelief.
2) A story of customer service or legal injustice with full documentation.
3) A comprehensive walkthrough or explanation on a particular subject that people are interested in.
4) A humorous list or compilation.
5) Discussions on unique events with diverse and well-thought responses.

This is the stuff that is passed along between websites. These are the passages through which users flow into a community. We have none. We are not worthy of users to just link.

I like bland. Look what happened here. Being a Pollyanna ain't always a bad thing. I'll take that over heartburn and tears any day. I frequent a forum that is cutthroat political and would send most of the political users here running in the opposite direction(some have, actually after sending them there!) It even has a basement for flaming. Who needs that all the time? Do it long enough and one starts becoming the ass one is portraying there everywhere else....no thanks. Opinion is one thing...flaming arguing is like expensive champagne...small sips is fine and makes the good last longer.

Originally Posted by Halx

Fourth: Rigidity. We're fighting against the grain on this one. We might think that our rules are what makes the TFP a great framework for a community, but we're also limiting our potential userbase. This is something I'm not willing to give up, which is all the more reason to work on the other things.


And while C:A is an abomination of an idea and is causing toxic conversation to spill into the TFP, it is not siphoning members away. And while some of my stakeholders disagree with its very presence, I must state the fifth reason why we are suffering.

Five: No outbound traffic. This might sound preposterous, but it's not. The most popular sites on the internet are the ones that lead you to other sites. Become a source of interesting content, both in-house and externally, and people will frequent you. From there, they will build a relationship and participate.

As I said, the TFP is just a rock, floating in a vast universe, alongside much more vast and dense bodies. We need to change a little.

I hope you'll read this and see my point. I don't expect you to agree with the C:A forum as an entity, but I hope you'll understand that it doesn't hurt. Yes, your friends may be arguing, but none of this was originated with the forum. Its good to air out some things.

While it's not siphoning yet, it's really angering more than a few. And who you thought were friends or at least forum compadres are showing themselves to be otherwise. My hat is off to Pan and Willravel and Aberkok-they have the patience of a saint. Or they're just stonecold
I do see your points, but at least for now, CA does hurt TFP. I'm old school-if there's a problem with one person or another, air it out by yourselves, resolve the differences and misunderstandings, not use a public forum and hide it under the title 'fun'. Even the most innocuous threads there bring out such venom!!
Since the last upheaval, people here not only starting coming back in, but policed themselves quite well, not because of rules but because they wanted civility.
The world is hectic, cruel, cold and couldn't care less about you or me. Why should a forum be the same way?

[Halx]

So let me get this straight. I do weeks of research on what makes a successful website, with the intention of applying at least a few of those lessons to the TFP, and you don't think any of it is necessary?

[ShaniFaye]

might it help you you did some kind of research on where "we" came from? I know I came from a recommendation from someone who was on a board that turned into a C:A type board...she made it for those of us that couldnt stand that crap and needed someplace "adult" because at that time my own forum was "closed" to anyone that wasnt known in real life

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by Halx

So let me get this straight. I do weeks of research on what makes a successful website, with the intention of applying at least a few of those lessons to the TFP, and you don't think any of it is necessary?

Sweetie...people make a website what it is....you can't research interaction once it's out there.
You've been at this for how long? 5-6 years? How many failed in that time, ya think?