Social Experiment Forum

[Sultana]

Originally Posted by pan6467

*snip*
And when the dust clears, the only 2 things that become truly certain is .... everyone has a darkside that someone else isn't going to like and that you've ruined friendships over false perceptions and lofty ideals the other could never have achieved.

I kinda agree with most of the previous post, but I have to point out that I don't think it's an overly-lofty goal to expect people to not be mean, unkind, etc.

I do think it's good that people realize that you don't truely get to *know* folks thought this filter of an internet forum. You think you do, but you don't. It's like those first Big Brother reality shows in a way. There's types of editing and presentation with different motivations that we don't/can't know about. Like television programs, the internet is a very real filter, and folks need to keep that in mind all the time. What all folks present on TFP is a persona, and the degree to which it reflects how an individual would match still subjective interpretation of the more immediate personal presentation of a "real life" person varies wildly--and for the most part, we'll never have that opportunity to know.

Even how people perceive and present themselves without intent to impress or mislead can be very different from how I end up seeing them.

[Supple Cow]

Originally Posted by Halx

I'm finding it interesting how people react. "I've lost respect for _______." To me, that's taking yourself too seriously. Losing respect for someone because they let loose in some fashion is as fake as it gets. In my head, my little world, we're all the same. We have pains, resentments, annoyances, peeves and prejudices. If you let them come to the surface, its no different than if you keep them inside; you still have them. Judging people on such a scale is pretentious and simply not *real* - real in the artistic sense.. you know, keepin' it real.

Face it, people, the world is dirty. The TFP just cleans it up a little, but it doesn't change the people participating in it.

Hal, I think you're missing the point of what's happening. If the result of your "experiment" over at on that other forum is a "success" here, then what I said before only applies more. It was an ill-conceived idea that is damaging the quality of interactions here and driving members away. If you want to see the "real" side of people, you will have to get to know them in many different contexts and accept that you may never now them (or even yourself) fully. I think whatever it is you are after has NOT been achieved, and if you think it has been, then it was an awfully poor idea to begin with (which is what I have suspected all along).

Part of what allows evolution here is the diversity of thought and our ability to express it on an equal basis. Obviously, what is happening on the other board is the antithesis of TFP's mission. But you can't keep them separate. Maybe, Hal, your master plan was to put up this foil to rouse everyone's feathers because it was getting too boring around here... in that case, nice work I guess. But I have noticed I'm not the only one who thinks this was an incredibly stupid idea coming from somebody who is trying to increase (or even just maintain) traffic through here and keep donations coming in. Perhaps I am just the only one who is rude enough to say it outright. At this point, all I can do is throw my hands in the air and wonder why.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by Sultana

I kinda agree with most of the previous post, but I have to point out that I don't think it's an overly-lofty goal to expect people to not be mean, unkind, etc.

I do think it's good that people realize that you don't truely get to *know* folks thought this filter of an internet forum. You think you do, but you don't. It's like those first Big Brother reality shows in a way. There's types of editing and presentation with different motivations that we don't/can't know about. Like television programs, the internet is a very real filter, and folks need to keep that in mind all the time. What all folks present on TFP is a persona, and the degree to which it reflects how an individual would match still subjective interpretation of the more immediate personal presentation of a "real life" person varies wildly--and for the most part, we'll never have that opportunity to know.

Even how people perceive and present themselves without intent to impress or mislead can be very different from how I end up seeing them.

People don't just become mean.

What I think has happened is that people went over wanting to have fun, shake things up a bit.... and did. But, what people didn't expect was that to some, being mean, namecalling, etc was their way of shaking things up and I don't think they truly meant any of it at first.

Then someone who saw a way of "getting power over others", who saw a way of getting approval from the mob mentality, effectively took control and the attacks became more personal, more angry, more bitter and "evil". Quite an ingenious plan really.

Problem is, once you drive away those the mob "doesn't feel belongs" you are still left with the originator's anger, bitterness and hatred..... and that person is smart enough to see that and is such a good manipulator that he/she will start feeding the mob to themselves..... so that in the end the only one left is the originator.... and they don't even see it as their fault, it is everyone else's because everyone else had the problem.

But what do I know.... I sit in a corner play tiddly winks, observe what is going on and ramble some psychobable that may or may not have merit to it.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by pan6467

I don't think it is so much "respect" as it is what you have come to expect from a certain person. It is easy to only see what the other wants revealed on the net. (In RL people have tells you can pick up personality "flaws" a lot more easily.)

So when you see a person you always expect to act a certain way, act a different way, and the expectations you had for that person are let down, it is easy to say "I've lost respect for......".

In doing so though, you may hurt the people you named's feelings, causing them to feel you are attacking them and thus they rear back and attack.... then the freefall starts.

And when the dust clears, the only 2 things that become truly certain is .... everyone has a darkside that someone else isn't going to like and that you've ruined friendships over false perceptions and lofty ideals the other could never have achieved.

As my sig on the other sight says (the opening sentences fronm the Great Gatsby) it is very true and they are words to live by.

In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since.
'Whenever you feel like criticizing anyone,' he told me, just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had.'

In some ways, I disagree. I think respect can be lost; I don't have to be friends with someone to respect them and their space. And up until the meltdown, I did just that all along, yet was 'told' I hate people...Hell, the only things I hate are asparagus and the smell of coffee. (ok, flame me for that one!! )
Life's too short to hate on people. But hate is what is coming to the surface and it's spreading like a fire out of control. I find it ridiculously sad.
Yes, everyone has a dark side, some darker than others and some that might surprise one or two. It's a level acceptance of that imperfection that determines the difference between respect because they're another human being and friendship. But once that darkness becomes the norm and dictates the course of action, the respect can and does go way down or disappears.
Allowing the worst of yourself to dictate your behavior, not censuring yourself and crossing boundaries with full knowledge that you are going to destroy another, to me, at least, kills my respect for you (ok, 'you' as in unknown entity, just to be clear!) My bad behavior was the result of that killing of respect and trust. So I censured myself.
At the end of the day, you have to feel good about something you did and know that,even if it didn't make a postive difference in life, at least it didn't do purposeful destruction. Some don't get that, apparently.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

In some ways, I disagree. I think respect can be lost; I don't have to be friends with someone to respect them and their space. And up until the meltdown, I did just that all along, yet was 'told' I hate people...Hell, the only things I hate are asparagus and the smell of coffee. (ok, flame me for that one!! )
Life's too short to hate on people. But hate is what is coming to the surface and it's spreading like a fire out of control. I find it ridiculously sad.
Yes, everyone has a dark side, some darker than others and some that might surprise one or two. It's a level acceptance of that imperfection that determines the difference between respect because they're another human being and friendship. But once that darkness becomes the norm and dictates the course of action, the respect can and does go way down or disappears.
Allowing the worst of yourself to dictate your behavior, not censuring yourself and crossing boundaries with full knowledge that you are going to destroy another, to me, at least, kills my respect for you (ok, 'you' as in unknown entity, just to be clear!) My bad behavior was the result of that killing of respect and trust. So I censured myself.
At the end of the day, you have to feel good about something you did and know that,even if it didn't make a postive difference in life, at least it didn't do purposeful destruction. Some don't get that, apparently.

Anger, hate, negativity is easier to spread and spreads much faster and with much more intensity than positivity, love, friendship, understanding.

Noone is above letting the negativity take control. Rash decisions, emotions and just actions before thinking happen, they are natural instincts that we as humans have used to survive for all these years.

But that is when you step back look at what is going on and make the conscience decision to walk away, stand and fight and stay negative, become a lighthouse beacon and try to spread a little light or ignore the negativity and do your best to bring your positive energy in.

But again, that's just my view on life in general.

[mixedmedia]

Originally Posted by pan6467

Anger, hate, negativity is easier to spread and spreads much faster and with much more intensity than positivity, love, friendship, understanding.

Noone is above letting the negativity take control. Rash decisions, emotions and just actions before thinking happen, they are natural instincts that we as humans have used to survive for all these years.

But that is when you step back look at what is going on and make the conscience decision to walk away, stand and fight and stay negative, become a lighthouse beacon and try to spread a little light or ignore the negativity and do your best to bring your positive energy in.

But again, that's just my view on life in general.

I think this is a fine viewpoint and good words to live by, but we are not dealing with a situation in which they are completely applicable. We are dealing with a few people whose idea of freedom has been from the start "anything goes which means I'm free to act like a churlish, immature putz." I think most people are coming to the obvious conclusion that the only thing to do in this situation is to walk away. To stay and fight is ridiculous because everything you say to defend yourself is simply more ammunition to be manipulated and thrown back in your face. There is no negotiating the exchanges, because they are not real. And, frankly, I see no point in it. There is no artfulness in this conception of anarchy. No insight or overriding philosophy. It's just people talking trash and, in some cases, using the venue to ventilate their pre-existing grudges.

And let me throw this in since we're being all open and anarchic and everything. If ever true anarchy were to hit the streets of the good old USA, I like to think that it's people like those acting buffoonish over on CA who would be the first to go running on home to mommy. It's real easy to be a big mouth behind a computer.

[ngdawg]

Totally agree with ya there, Pan
It is easier and more instinctive to say 'yea, well, you're a ***' back. And it is hard to say 'enough-I'm better than this' and walk away. I know I'm better than this....

Phil's sig is so true and for the longest time I didn't get it:
Don't wrestle with a pig.
You both get dirty.
The pig likes it.


Edit; Damn, this thread is moving fast....

[Halx]

pan, you sorta spoke my point. A few insults over at CA were thrown just in the stupid spirit of insulting for no reason. They were fake. They were said in order to hurt, but did not reflect any real genuine emotions. And thats what "I've lost respect for" also communicates. There is no respect-o-meter that just dropped 40 points upon reading of said posts... its just empty posturing meant to shock someone into shame for their actions.

Sultana, all people need to be understood. If there was an action, there was a reason for the action. The real reason may not be the apparent one, so you might have to dig deeper. Either way, those reasons might reveal a much more complex picture than simply, "this guy is immature." I'm never prepared to pass judgement because of that.

[Sultana]

Originally Posted by pan6467

People don't just become mean.

*snip*

But my post that you reference doesn't have a thing to do with people being mean. It addresses Presentation, Perception, Context, Subjectivity, and because I can't remember the better phrase I wanted to use, Preconceived notions.

This whole thing is looking like Lord of the Flies.

[roachboy]

it seems to me that there are at least two problems: one the strange design of the "anarchy" forum; the other the place/meaning of fratboy "humor". on the first, i have already said more or less what i have to say--because the nature and structure of the board is not collectively deliberated, there is no experiment in self-governance happening. what is happening is a simple inversion of how this space (say) operates. this combined with the emphasis on there being "no rules" makes the outcome--that folk do not appear to be operating with any sense of responsibility to anyone or anything--predictable.
so i think one problem lay in the idea behind the anarchy forum. i dont think there was a whole lot of thought behind it. sorry, but that's how it looks.

on the fratboy tendency: maybe this is a purely aesthetic thing on my part, or maybe it is a reflection of my mode of being as old fart, but i haven't found anything on that board (i have looked at it several times) funny or interesting at all.
i think in the end i value a sense of care in posts. this doesn't translate into always being nice to everyone--it is more a sense of there being some effort put into what is said and how it is said.
fratboy humor requires neither care nor thought.
there is nothing interesting in "blow me" or "why dont you just fuck off" or "that was fucking lame."

the results are like making fart noises with your hands.
i found that really hilarious when i was 14. now i dont.

but this is a problematic area because while i believe the above to be true, it is an aesthetic position. it refers to what i happen to find funny. i am not sure whether it is possible to go any further with this: except that within fratboy "humor" there are lots of juvenile, reactionary attitudes...a kind of narcissism lay behind the assumption that you can say just anything without giving it any particular thought, that whatever pops into your head is funny because it pops into your head.

i dont understand the interest in activating your inner fuckwit and taking it out to play.

i think that being funny in a written format requires some work.
anything worth doing requires work, and to prompt that work there has to be some sense of responsibility--this can be quite narrowly understood as applying to style (it doesnt matter so much how it deploys so long as it does)--and here the strange design of the anarchy forum converges with the low quality of much of the posting there.

what is also clear is that some of the folk whoa re active in anarchy seem to find its design to be liberating. maybe they can make something interesting out of it. for myself, though, i am not going to participate there until it morphs into something else. what is happening now is tedious and alienating.

[pan6467]

Ah such beauty the 2 ladies above me (I'm sure someone will say i'm kissing ass..... why not I'm good at it besides they are very lovely ladies so it's the truth.)

(It was meant for NG and MM because when I started they were the 2 above me....... I'll add Sultana... would be a pleasure to anyway.... Halx and RB, while I am sure are handsome specimens.... I just can't see myself calling lovely.)

I truly understand what you are saying.

I just am too naive and optimistic to give up. I do my thing, spread the gospel of Monty Python, try to get someone to smile and ignore what I don't wish to read.

If someone attacks me, if a mob attacks me for what I said in a post.... aw well. It's not going to be much of a fight because I'll keep being true to myself. It's all I can do in life and when you accept that, you can put behind you the negativity of others. (Except F*'n politics.... it still makes me struggle within.)

[Halx]

Originally Posted by Supple Cow

Hal, I think you're missing the point of what's happening. If the result of your "experiment" over at on that other forum is a "success" here, then what I said before only applies more. It was an ill-conceived idea that is damaging the quality of interactions here and driving members away. If you want to see the "real" side of people, you will have to get to know them in many different contexts and accept that you may never now them (or even yourself) fully. I think whatever it is you are after has NOT been achieved, and if you think it has been, then it was an awfully poor idea to begin with (which is what I have suspected all along).

Part of what allows evolution here is the diversity of thought and our ability to express it on an equal basis. Obviously, what is happening on the other board is the antithesis of TFP's mission. But you can't keep them separate. Maybe, Hal, your master plan was to put up this foil to rouse everyone's feathers because it was getting too boring around here... in that case, nice work I guess. But I have noticed I'm not the only one who thinks this was an incredibly stupid idea coming from somebody who is trying to increase (or even just maintain) traffic through here and keep donations coming in. Perhaps I am just the only one who is rude enough to say it outright. At this point, all I can do is throw my hands in the air and wonder why.

I dont think I came into it with a hypothesis, goal, or anything really, but that's not the point. It was an idea.. simply that. One that could have gone either way. If you told me outright how you thought it would have gone and that it wasn't worth it, I would have replied that theory is nothing more than realistic fiction. Simply put: it's there. Now learn from it.

This isn't a plan to get people going. This isn't a scheme to get more traffic. This isn't a device to get rid of people. It's simply an idea put into motion.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by Halx

pan, you sorta spoke my point. A few insults over at CA were thrown just in the stupid spirit of insulting for no reason. They were fake. They were said in order to hurt, but did not reflect any real genuine emotions. And thats what "I've lost respect for" also communicates. There is no respect-o-meter that just dropped 40 points upon reading of said posts... its just empty posturing meant to shock someone into shame for their actions.

Sultana, all people need to be understood. If there was an action, there was a reason for the action. The real reason may not be the apparent one, so you might have to dig deeper. Either way, those reasons might reveal a much more complex picture than simply, "this guy is immature." I'm never prepared to pass judgement because of that.

Some were true emotions. Behind what is seen has been a constant disdain-by going elsewhere and using the guise of fun with anarchy, that disdain was used for 'entertainment'. But, like Pan pointed out, one bitter person with a couple of friends manipulated things to their way. No longer was there any 'entertainment', it was blatant mob 'kill the monster' mentality. In less than 48 hours, two of the haters became mods...mission accomplished.
Now it's on to another victim and, as Pan also said, it will continue until all that's left are the original bitter ones. Anyone who tries to sway things away from the mudslinging get mud thrown at them. It's a playground run by the bullies.

[abaya]

Originally Posted by Halx

You have totally over-thought the entire process.

To echo SC's earlier post: Halx, with all due respect, I don't think you thought enough about the entire process before setting it in motion. roachboy, with all his analysis, is right on target... and I think many of us agree with him.

I do find it marginally interesting that, in relation to the "fratboy" references, this whole thing does have some gender correlations. Note the gender of those who are defending C:A most vehemently, and those who are criticizing it most harshly. Honestly wondering about why this is the pattern... any thoughts?

I would also like to know if our donor funds are/will be supporting this new forum in any way.

[mixedmedia]

Originally Posted by roachboy

it seems to me that there are at least two problems: one the strange design of the "anarchy" forum; the other the place/meaning of fratboy "humor". on the first, i have already said more or less what i have to say--because the nature and structure of the board is not collectively deliberated, there is no experiment in self-governance happening. what is happening is a simple inversion of how this space (say) operates. this combined with the emphasis on there being "no rules" makes the outcome--that folk do not appear to be operating with any sense of responsibility to anyone or anything--predictable.
so i think one problem lay in the idea behind the anarchy forum. i dont think there was a whole lot of thought behind it. sorry, but that's how it looks.

on the fratboy tendency: maybe this is a purely aesthetic thing on my part, or maybe it is a reflection of my mode of being as old fart, but i haven't found anything on that board (i have looked at it several times) funny or interesting at all.
i think in the end i value a sense of care in posts. this doesn't translate into always being nice to everyone--it is more a sense of there being some effort put into what is said and how it is said.
fratboy humor requires neither care nor thought.
there is nothing interesting in "blow me" or "why dont you just fuck off" or "that was fucking lame."

the results are like making fart noises with your hands.
i found that really hilarious when i was 14. now i dont.

but this is a problematic area because while i believe the above to be true, it is an aesthetic position. it refers to what i happen to find funny. i am not sure whether it is possible to go any further with this: except that within fratboy "humor" there are lots of juvenile, reactionary attitudes...a kind of narcissism lay behind the assumption that you can say just anything without giving it any particular thought, that whatever pops into your head is funny because it pops into your head.

i dont understand the interest in activating your inner fuckwit and taking it out to play.

i think that being funny in a written format requires some work.
anything worth doing requires work, and to prompt that work there has to be some sense of responsibility--this can be quite narrowly understood as applying to style (it doesnt matter so much how it deploys so long as it does)--and here the strange design of the anarchy forum converges with the low quality of much of the posting there.

what is also clear is that some of the folk whoa re active in anarchy seem to find its design to be liberating. maybe they can make something interesting out of it. for myself, though, i am not going to participate there until it morphs into something else. what is happening now is tedious and alienating.

roachboy airs my views with utter conciseness...and with so much more style and better grammar.

I think he's right, a lot of it must come simply down to style and/or taste. When I think of an anarchy forum I think of a place where, in the terms of actual discussion, anything goes but at the same time the participants have an actual interest in discussion. I guess coming from this environment, I was shocked at how quickly the talk at CA turned from a sort of casual banter between a few people to a mean-spirited tag team operation with participants doing everything they could to stifle anything but their own agenda - mindless "fun." They may get a lot of gratification or whatever out of it, but it's just not my bag.

And looking back, it might have been a good idea to encourage all of us to take on new usernames at CA.

[Menoman]

Don't you people even see what's going on?

You think you are losing respect for someone, You didnt even know that person!! You only knew the censored "Ohh I better not post what I think coz the TFP super elite known ones will strike me down"

You can't respect someone who is a fake, we here, we are all fakes, we censor ourselves.

You want to truly respect someone? Go to that forum and see how they act, you can respect someone who in a consequence free enviroment and still upholds the morals YOU think are good.

Because basically respect is only that, seeing moral choices that YOU also carry. That hardly means they are worth respect, it just means you agree with their morals.



If you guys are going to let that forum break apart this one, the problem is with you, not those forums.

[ShaniFaye]

speak for yourself.....I as much myself here as I am in real life....and the people that have met me will gladly testify to that, tfp and its rules in no way dilutes me or my personality, if I disagree with someone here, I state the why's and wherefores....it IS possible to do that without getting nasty about it...its the way I lived my life WAY before TFP was ever even a thought.

[Carno]

^ That's baloney. Weren't you bitching about the TFP being too censored not too long ago?

[abaya]

Originally Posted by Menoman

You didnt even know that person!! You only knew the censored "Ohh I better not post what I think coz the TFP super elite known ones will strike me down"

You can't respect someone who is a fake, we here, we are all fakes, we censor ourselves.

You want to truly respect someone? Go to that forum and see how they act, you can respect someone who in a consequence free enviroment and still upholds the morals YOU think are good.

Bloody fucking hell. Here it comes.

You speak for yourself and others like you; fine for that. DO NOT speak for me, goddammit. I POST WHAT I THINK. I don't give a flying fuck about the "TFP super elite" because I don't post to piss them off, or anyone off. I post my opinion, whatever it may be, no matter how inflammatory or boring its content. If they want to censor me for that, fine... but guess what? I have never been censored or penalized here, and it's not because I'm being fake.

I don't need to "go to another forum" to respect someone in a consequence-free environment. My respect comes from seeing people in as many *different* environments as possible... and if they are inconsistent between environments (not in terms of "social expectations," e.g. wedding vs. funeral, but actual PERSONALITY and integrity), yes, they sure as hell lose my respect.

There is a quote somewhere that "Your character is revealed by what you will do when you think you will never get caught." That is the principle I operate on, in terms of evaluating my respect for others... online or IRL. Whether or not I get "caught" or not, THIS IS WHO I AM. Ask anyone who's met me IRL from TFP, and I am quite sure they will tell you that I'm not a whole lot different in either setting.

Feel free to disrespect me in this forum or any other, or in real life. Go for it. Knock yourself out.

EDIT: And by the way, if you want to bring up the fact that I started threads about the TFP not being kinky enough, etc, go ahead. I stand behind those threads, because what I was trying to do was help change the TFP, not go running somewhere else to hide and express my "true thoughts." As a result of that thread and others, I've been much more comfortable discussing kink and other things here, and I'm happier with the TFP as a result. If I want a change in the community, I do it HERE, not somewhere else.

[ShaniFaye]

Originally Posted by Carno

^ That's baloney. Weren't you bitching about the TFP being too censored not too long ago?

I think if you go back and read my "beefs" you will see it was about the fact that MODERATORS got away with things that are expressly against the "rules" here.

That is called calling bullshit not complaining about "censorship"

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by Menoman

Don't you people even see what's going on?

You think you are losing respect for someone, You didnt even know that person!! You only knew the censored "Ohh I better not post what I think coz the TFP super elite known ones will strike me down"

You can't respect someone who is a fake, we here, we are all fakes, we censor ourselves.

You want to truly respect someone? Go to that forum and see how they act, you can respect someone who in a consequence free enviroment and still upholds the morals YOU think are good.

Because basically respect is only that, seeing moral choices that YOU also carry. That hardly means they are worth respect, it just means you agree with their morals.

And check out how those morals played out.

If you guys are going to let that forum break apart this one, the problem is with you, not those forums.

And check out how those morals played out.
I respect most people without having to ever meet them or know their 'morals'. I am sure there are many who might not agree with mine or Shani's or yours, but you have respect, correct? How would going over there gain respect for them now? Bullying, insulting, mudslinging, dragging others into one's petty, shallow issues are not things I would consider worthy of respect.
I am, in real life, the way I am here, maybe a tad more goofy IRL and that's it. Why would I go through the effort of making someone up? That's just stupid.
The people that were doing so much slamming, I had respect for. A couple of them I actually liked based on what I saw here. Look where it got me.
Everyone, especially when they are relatively unknown, deserves respect until the unknown becomes known. Not everyone is going to be liked-that's a given.
I don't think that the other forum will break this one; I do think that, unless they're incredibly egotistic and oblivious, it will be hard for those who do/did the most damage to come back here and have whatever respect they'd gathered through TFP remain the same. The damage has been done.

[Daniel_]

Read this: http://www.prisonexp.org/, or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Watch this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...01783583080634

I have nothing to add at this time.

[ShaniFaye]

Carno...I would like to apologize.....what you said was partially correct, I went back and reread that thread and you're right in a way.....I did complain about the "words" I couldnt use here and feeling restricted in vocabulary.

that DOESNT mean that my personality/behavior here is any less true though, it just means I choose my words a little more carefully than I would if you and I were sitting around having a chat over dinner or something.

I hope that makes sense

[Carno]

No need to apologize. I understand what you mean.

[shesus]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Makes me wonder why I spend my time here.

That's been going through my head for a long time now actually...a few months at least.

If I have lost respect from people because I don't like another person or have acted in an 'inappropriate' way, so be it. Especially if it's from people who are only internet entities. I never came here to gain, maintain, or lose respect anyway.

Coming to TFP or any forum has always been a release with some interesting tidbits and discussion point. It's a habit I've gotten into that has lasted for over 8 years now beginning with Excite! Chat back in the day. I don't really care what people who aren't a part of my life think. I have my real-life friends and they are the people that I truly care about and the only people I would let judge me and actually give a shit about what they think.

To quote my ex-fiance 'you may think my friends are stupid and stuff, but they're fun and they support me. If they are the judge of my character and you have a problem with that, then maybe I don't want to be with you anymore either.' This was in one of the many letters after our break-up almost 7 years ago and it's always stuck with me. I missed his 'stupid' friends after we split up. They were so much fun and a breath of fresh air after spending my days with college students trying to score big with professors and being serious all the time.

[Halx]

No donor funds were harmed in the making of this forum.

I don't get the concept of thinking "enough" about the process. I mean, it's an idea. That's all it is. That's as much thinking that needs to go on. The reason why I made it was because I didn't know what would happen and I wanted to see. I'm seeing SOMETHING. It's interesting.

I made a thread in Philosophy a while back about a similar idea and I got a whole range of suggestions. The actual execution has changed and it's an interesting system.

What is bad about the forum's presence?
1) You don't have to even view it if you don't want to. (let's get that one out of the way.)
2) It is not affiliated with the TFP by any declaration. It's MY site.
3) The comments on it about the TFP are no different than if the users had come from some other SINGLE site. More diversity is in the works.
4) I think I know at least one forum on the internet that was created entirely out of spite for the TFP... this isn't it.
5) The site is not even 3 days old. If an engine sounded as bad running as it does turning over, then we have a problem... but it's not even running yet!

In other words, the experiment has yet to begun. However, the gallery of comments is starting to sound like a bunch of unimpressed art critics and over-protective soccer moms. Yeah, you have every right to denounce the work, but don't judge the canvas before it's got any ink on it.

[analog]

I've been having fun, watching people go nuts over the words of a few, and the way people act when the rules are removed- but then, social psychology is of great interest to me.

Losing respect for someone because of how they act in a consequence-free environment, when you know them from a place where there are rules of decorum, is a little ridiculous and judgmental. How a person chooses to spend their "play time" is not really for you to judge when you're back working under the rules, unless they spend their time doing things that are truly outside ethical bounds. The actions people are complaining about are not unethical or immoral, they just don't like them. It also doesn't mean you "didn't know them" because this particular facet of their personality hadn't been seen. You also don't know how they do a lot of other things, but that never bothered you until you were faced with what you believe is a contradictory set of personality traits.

Like has been said, no one just suddenly becomes mean. If you see a side of a person you've never seen before under different conditions than you normally see that person, that's just called "life". You can't impose character judgments on a person and then have disdain for them when you realize your judgment was based on your observation of them in one social setting.

This is like going out to drink with your boss. I know that for myself, my professional persona is way different than my normal everyday self- because it needs to be, it must be. I don't understand the thought process of then calling a person "untrue" because another facet of their personality shines under another type of social situation.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by shesus

That's been going through my head for a long time now actually...a few months at least.

If I have lost respect from people because I don't like another person or have acted in an 'inappropriate' way, so be it. Especially if it's from people who are only internet entities. I never came here to gain, maintain, or lose respect anyway.

Coming to TFP or any forum has always been a release with some interesting tidbits and discussion point. It's a habit I've gotten into that has lasted for over 8 years now beginning with Excite! Chat back in the day. I don't really care what people who aren't a part of my life think. I have my real-life friends and they are the people that I truly care about and the only people I would let judge me and actually give a shit about what they think.

To quote my ex-fiance 'you may think my friends are stupid and stuff, but they're fun and they support me. If they are the judge of my character and you have a problem with that, then maybe I don't want to be with you anymore either.' This was in one of the many letters after our break-up almost 7 years ago and it's always stuck with me. I missed his 'stupid' friends after we split up. They were so much fun and a breath of fresh air after spending my days with college students trying to score big with professors and being serious all the time.

How many of your real-life friends started out as 'only internet entities'?
Anyone that goes anywhere, whether internet or in real life, expects respect. Saying you don't go someplace expecting respect is one of two things-a lie or a sense of unworthiness. No one goes someplace real or otherwise to be cut to pieces. Weren't you pretty miserable in a place where lack of respect was commonplace?
We all have friends that support us and we love and respect them for it. It's the strangers that choose to support us that really earn respect and admiration.

[Halx]

Originally Posted by roachboy

what is also clear is that some of the folk whoa re active in anarchy seem to find its design to be liberating. maybe they can make something interesting out of it. for myself, though, i am not going to participate there until it morphs into something else. what is happening now is tedious and alienating.

I'm glad you noted this. The people do find it liberating. Taking from the wikipedia article Daniel posted, you'll notice how the experiment started off with an ad in the paper. 70 responses, out of how many who actually read the ad? Really, you don't have to participate, but there does need to be some people to form the beginning core.

Here's how I envision this forum to go:

-Users get on the forum and start posting. They fill the board up with stuff excitedly. None of it is any more quality than the idle thoughts that come to us during the day. Much of it is quite contrived and dumb. We've seen this part. I think it's less "frat boy" and more "enthusiasm." You talked about lack of structure and predictability, but I would argue that the open space for a forum topic is rife with invitation to just simply OPEN a topic. "Who cares what it's about, we just need to fill this space up!"

That's my take on that part.

-The next step is users settle down. After the nest is built, users have to nestle in and start to decorate it. Nobody moves into a new home without arranging their furniture and hanging pictures. This is when the content starts to take shape. Those who feel a responsibility to the forum will feel the need to clean up the trash and promote better posts.

The initial excitement will die down and the trouble posters will see that they've made a mess. A few people will leave, but some will stay and try to actually make it work. This is a critical time for the forum because if there isn't enough people left, then it'll just die.

-The light clicks on. People start participating in a more civil and respectable manner, but shit will still erupt... thats just the nature of the internet. In fact, I came across a rather large (maybe20 times the size of TFP) general topic message board today and they actually framed their flame posts in their "Best of" section. At this point, the administrators start to pop up (Admin is given based on general population sample.. if there aren't enough people participating, there is no need for an admin.)

-As time goes on, things get smoother and smoother. There's always the possibility of abortion-by-administration, but if people give rep points to the right people. It could work out.





Or it could die a horrible death in its first 2 weeks.

[spectre]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

How many of your real-life friends started out as 'only internet entities'?
Anyone that goes anywhere, whether internet or in real life, expects respect. Saying you don't go someplace expecting respect is one of two things-a lie or a sense of unworthiness. No one goes someplace real or otherwise to be cut to pieces. Weren't you pretty miserable in a place where lack of respect was commonplace?
We all have friends that support us and we love and respect them for it. It's the strangers that choose to support us that really earn respect and admiration.

There are no "innocent victims" in anything that went on over there.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by Halx

I'm glad you noted this. The people do find it liberating. Taking from the wikipedia article Daniel posted, you'll notice how the experiment started off with an ad in the paper. 70 responses, out of how many who actually read the ad? Really, you don't have to participate, but there does need to be some people to form the beginning core.

Here's how I envision this forum to go:

-Users get on the forum and start posting. They fill the board up with stuff excitedly. None of it is any more quality than the idle thoughts that come to us during the day. Much of it is quite contrived and dumb. We've seen this part. I think it's less "frat boy" and more "enthusiasm."

And encouraging the trade of spiteful insults is 'enthusiasm', how
?

Originally Posted by Halx

You talked about lack of structure and predictability, but I would argue that the open space for a forum topic is rife with invitation to just simply OPEN a topic. "Who cares what it's about, we just need to fill this space up!"

That's my take on that part.

Filling it up with hate is not a good thing.

Originally Posted by Halx

-The next step is users settle down. After the nest is built, users have to nestle in and start to decorate it. Nobody moves into a new home without arranging their furniture and hanging pictures. This is when the content starts to take shape. Those who feel a responsibility to the forum will feel the need to clean up the trash and promote better posts.

The initial excitement will die down and the trouble posters will see that they've made a mess. A few people will leave, but some will stay and try to actually make it work. This is a critical time for the forum because if there isn't enough people left, then it'll just die.

-The light clicks on. People start participating in a more civil and respectable manner, but shit will still erupt... thats just the nature of the internet. In fact, I came across a rather large (maybe20 times the size of TFP) general topic message board today and they actually framed their flame posts in their "Best of" section. At this point, the administrators start to pop up (Admin is given based on general population sample.. if there aren't enough people participating, there is no need for an admin.)

-As time goes on, things get smoother and smoother. There's always the possibility of abortion-by-administration, but if people give rep points to the right people. It could work out.





Or it could die a horrible death in its first 2 weeks.

It could work out but its beginnings are horrid. I love you, Hal and I wanted to help you out as always. Even in Anarchy, instinctiveness in most includes self-censuring at some point. Not everyone is going to run like a wild animal, wreaking havoc, even if the proclivity to do so strikes for a second.
Some don't have it in them. Hopefully, as you wish, things will calm down and it will filter itself. But you've got some mighty fine people here who want nothing to do with it now.

[Psycho Dad]

Originally Posted by Halx

I think this thread alone is a success.

Interesting at least. I've yet to look at the other site other than a quick clickthrough to see what the fuss is about. The way bowels have got in an uproar is something.

Sticks and stones people... Sticks and stones.

[Ourcrazymodern?]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

I don't have to be friends with someone to respect them and their space...Life's too short to hate on people. coming to the surface
might surprise one or two. .

Sorry for taking stuff out ngdawg, but it was too much to respond to all at once! These are beautiful sentences & thank you very much!

[JumpinJesus]

I've been trying to decide how I want to respond to everything that's been said here and to address just why I've been acting like what many of you perceive to be an asshole in Anarchy. I decided the best thing to do would be to just copy and paste the reply I gave aberkok when he asked why it's so important to be free to give personal insults. Here is my reply:

It's not that it's important to be free to give personal insults - it's that I'm free to not be censored from doing it if I feel so inclined. I appreciate and respect level-headedness and in most circumstances, level-headedness prevails and earns respect, but not all the time.

One of the reasons that I'm not concerned with how I'm perceived in the rest of the other forum is that I do not live my life based upon the approval I get from strangers. This isn't an insult to anyone who does, either. I just don't see the point of trying to please everyone just so people think I'm nice. I'm not interested in "nice" for the sake of being liked. I'm also of the mindset that those who think everything in life should be treated level-headedly are missing out on one the things that makes humans different from the other animals: the ability to feel and express emotions. We talk about level-headedness but we never discuss a balance of emotions. If everyone is always expected to be nice or to disguise their ire, then our emotions remain unbalanced. This is not level-headed at all.

I can easily understand the argument that I'm being childish. Hell, if I were the observer and it were someone else involved in this, I'd probably think the same thing. The problem with this thinking, though, is that idea that some people have that we will stop if we feel others view us more poorly than before. This flies against how I live my life. Shame or guilt don't work with me. I'll stop when I'm ready to stop, which will probably be when I get bored.

Does this make me less of a person? Why? Because I don't adhere to someone else's notion of what acceptable is? Does everyone adhere to everyone's notion of acceptable behavior? Is it even possible for us to? Or is the the notion of acceptable behavior held by the masses that we should adhere to? I've been called a lemming for going along with a few others here who are engaged in the same behavior, but insinuate that I'd stop being a lemming if only I'd do what the majority of people are doing. That's abusrd.

Since there is no way in hell I'll ever please everyone or be able to adhere to everyone's expectations of behavior, I decide to follow my own. If that means that a group of people are disappointed in me, then so be it.

And while we all rally around particular people, I just want to reiterate spec's comment: there are no innocent victims in what went on over there. We may choose to pick sides, and that's fine, but don't for a second think that the person you may choose to support is an innocent victim.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

I've been trying to decide how I want to respond to everything that's been said here and to address just why I've been acting like what many of you perceive to be an asshole in Anarchy. I decided the best thing to do would be to just copy and paste the reply I gave aberkok when he asked why it's so important to be free to give personal insults. Here is my reply:



And while we all rally around particular people, I just want to reiterate spec's comment: there are no innocent victims in what went on over there. We may choose to pick sides, and that's fine, but don't for a second think that the person you may choose to support is an innocent victim.

It would behoove you to read this entire thread(again) then. No one has. And the person (let's not be so transparently formal, it's me) has admitted her participation and duly apologized for it. Your continued disdain for me is duly noted, but there is a more appropriate forum in which to express it.

[Daoust]

[QUOTE=Halx]

-Users get on the forum and start posting. They fill the board up with stuff excitedly. None of it is any more quality than the idle thoughts that come to us during the day. Much of it is quite contrived and dumb. We've seen this part. I think it's less "frat boy" and more "enthusiasm." You talked about lack of structure and predictability, but I would argue that the open space for a forum topic is rife with invitation to just simply OPEN a topic. "Who cares what it's about, we just need to fill this space up!"

That's my take on that part.

-The next step is users settle down. After the nest is built, users have to nestle in and start to decorate it. Nobody moves into a new home without arranging their furniture and hanging pictures. This is when the content starts to take shape. Those who feel a responsibility to the forum will feel the need to clean up the trash and promote better posts.

The initial excitement will die down and the trouble posters will see that they've made a mess. A few people will leave, but some will stay and try to actually make it work. This is a critical time for the forum because if there isn't enough people left, then it'll just die.

-The light clicks on. People start participating in a more civil and respectable manner, but shit will still erupt... thats just the nature of the internet. In fact, I came across a rather large (maybe20 times the size of TFP) general topic message board today and they actually framed their flame posts in their "Best of" section. At this point, the administrators start to pop up (Admin is given based on general population sample.. if there aren't enough people participating, there is no need for an admin.)

-As time goes on, things get smoother and smoother. There's always the possibility of abortion-by-administration, but if people give rep points to the right people. It could work out.

Is this how the TFP started? Through the same process?

Or it could die a horrible death in its first 2 weeks.

I predict a slower more painful death.

For the record, I feel that the life and death of C:A will definitely impact TFP. I echo Charlatan's earlier sentiment about the detrimental effects of CA on TFP.

[shesus]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

How many of your real-life friends started out as 'only internet entities'?

That was an added bonus of this. I came here solely to read some posts and type some responses. The fact that some friendships came out of it is great, but not expected. I have many friends that aren't from the internet too. Anytime you are anywhere long enough, bonds are bound to form...love or hate or indifference.

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Anyone that goes anywhere, whether internet or in real life, expects respect. Saying you don't go someplace expecting respect is one of two things-a lie or a sense of unworthiness. No one goes someplace real or otherwise to be cut to pieces.

Respect is a feeling that someone approves or disapproves. There are places where I go that I don't care if I'm respected or not. In fact I'm tired of even talking about respect. Because honestly, I'm not crying myself to sleep because people that don't know me has lost respect because they didn't know me.

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Weren't you pretty miserable in a place where lack of respect was commonplace?

But that was at the workplace where repsect is expected. Not on a message board where it really doesn't matter at the end of the day.

Originally Posted by ngdawg

We all have friends that support us and we love and respect them for it. It's the strangers that choose to support us that really earn respect and admiration.

I differ with you on this point. Strangers aren't going to bring me soup when I'm sick. Strangers aren't going to offer money when I'm broke. Strangers aren't going to let me cry on their shoulder when I have a family problem. Strangers aren't going to answer the phone if I have to call at 3am to talk. If I see a stranger doing something nice, I get a passing 'that's cool of them' and then it's dismissed, not remembered. I'm not out to win over the world and make everyone happy. That's impossible.

If I have one regret it's the fact that I got so into this forum. As others are seeing 'true colors' of various members, I'm seeing the true colors of this forum a lot clearer than before. At one point, I really did enjoy this board and thought it was a wonderful place where everyone contributed and did their thing. I felt a community bond and while there have always been people I don't agree with, it was easy to overlook it. Lately though, it seems there is more judging going on than usual. Maybe it's because some people are feeling constrained by the 'let's rally around everyone and not hurt any feelings' sentiment.

I know that some people say that they are the same everywhere and that they would never act any different. Ok, you know I might have thought the same thing about myself. But I'm not 2-D. I'm not serious all the time. I'm not sweet all the time. I do have feelings and there are people that I don't like. It's who I am. I did not 'invent' a new personality for anarchy. I am not fake and I've never pretended to be anything I'm not. However, that is a social experiment over there and I, for one, have learned some things about myself too. I've learned that even after all these years of working on not being a pleaser, I still am to an extent. If I have any regrets, it's the fact that I have been hanging on to the pleaser-side of my personality here. I should have stated things as I saw them and not worried so much if someone would be upset or pissed. I didn't not say those things to maintain or gain respect though, I did it because I was going along with the majority here and didn't want to deal with the shitstorm that would have hit me if I stated my opinions on different things I've witnessed in this forum.

This social experiment has been liberating for me. I'm not talking about the freedom to name-call or belittle people, but the freedom to speak my opinions. I am not denying that through this mini-journey I dropped some names and hit below the belt, but not any more than others over there because as mentioned many times there are no innocents. However, even if it's ugly, I'd rather be honest than to pretend I'm so 2-D that I have no negative personality traits or opinions of others.

[ngdawg]

At one point, I really did enjoy this board and thought it was a wonderful place where everyone contributed and did their thing. I felt a community bond and while there have always been people I don't agree with, it was easy to overlook it

Yea, me too...I actually liked the very people who turned on me in the name of fun...that'll teach me.

[spectre]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Yea, me too...I actually liked the very people who turned on me in the name of fun...that'll teach me.

Originally Posted by spectre

There are no "innocent victims" in anything that went on over there.

I think my earlier response sums everything up.

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by spectre

There are no "innocent victims" in anything that went on over there.

I don't know about that. Way back on the first page of this thread, I was interested. I went over there and tried to register, only to find that "ratbastid" was taken. I "hrmph"ed about that and haven't been back. Anything "ratbastid" has posted there wasn't me. And I haven't been there to see whether that user has posted anything or not.

I know the formal reputation system is self-contained over there. But can people's opinions and impressions from that site propagate back to TFP? Because I'm feeling somewhat the victim of an identity theft that happened before I set foot on that site.