Plan B, the "morning-after pill" now without prescription. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

analog · 08-24-2006, 01:24 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/08/24....ap/index.html

Quote:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Women can buy the morning-after pill without a prescription, the government declared Thursday, a major step that nevertheless failed to quell the politically charged debate over access to emergency contraception.

The manufacturer, lawmakers and other advocates said they will press the government to allow minors to purchase the pills over the counter.

The Food and Drug Administration said that women 18 and older -- and men purchasing for their partners -- may buy the Plan B pills without a doctor's note, but only from pharmacies.

Girls 17 and younger still will need a prescription to buy the pills, the FDA told manufacturer Barr Pharmaceuticals Inc., in ruling on an application filed in 2003.

Still at odds

The compromise decision is a partial victory for women's advocacy and medical groups, which say easier access could halve the nation's 3 million annual unplanned pregnancies.

"While we are glad to know the FDA finally ended its foot-dragging on this issue, Planned Parenthood is troubled by the scientifically baseless restriction imposed on teenagers. The U.S. has one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the Western world -- anything that makes it harder for teenagers to avoid unintended pregnancy is bad medicine and bad public policy," president Cecile Richards said.

Opponents contend that nonprescription availability could increase promiscuity and promote use of the pills by sexual predators.

"If the FDA thinks that enacting an age restriction will work, or that the drug company will enforce it ... then they are living in a dream world," said Wendy Wright, president of Concerned Women for America, who led the opposition.
Pregnancy risk reduced

Plan B contains a concentrated dose of the same drug found in many regular birth-control pills. Planned Parenthood estimates 41 other countries already allow women to buy emergency contraception without a prescription.

If a woman takes Plan B within 72 hours of unprotected sex, she can lower the risk of pregnancy by up to 89 percent. Plan B is different from the abortion pill: If a woman already is pregnant, Plan B has no effect.

The earlier the pills are taken, the more effective they are. Allowing nonprescription sales mean women won't have to hustle to get a prescription, something especially difficult on weekends and holidays, advocates said.

The FDA's long delay in deciding on Barr's application ensnared President Bush's nominee to head the regulatory agency. On Thursday, two senators said they would lift their Plan-B-related block on Dr. Andrew von Eschenbach.

In recent weeks, anti-abortion groups, angered that approval was imminent, had urged Bush to withdraw von Eschenbach's nomination. Bush said Monday that he supported the doctor's decisions.
Only at pharmacies

Barr hopes to begin nonprescription sales of Plan B by the end of the year. The pills will be sold only from behind the counter at pharmacies, but not at convenience stores or gas stations. Pharmacists will check photo identification.

There isn't enough scientific evidence that young teens can safely use Plan B without a doctor's supervision, von Eschenbach said in a memo. Over-the-counter use is safe for older teens and adults, the acting FDA commissioner added in explaining the age cutoff.

"This approach should help ensure safe and effective use of the product," wrote von Eschenbach.

Barr and others were disappointed that FDA imposed the age restriction. Bruce L. Downey, Barr's chairman, pledged to continue working with the agency to try to eliminate it.

The age restriction remains controversial even inside FDA, agency drugs chief Dr. Steven Galson told The Associated Press. Galson has acknowledged overruling his staff scientists, who concluded in 2004 that nonprescription sales would be safe for all ages.

"Let me be frank, there still are disagreements," Galson said in an interview. "There were disagreements from the first second this application came in the house."

The Center for Reproductive Rights said a lawsuit filed last year to do away with all age restrictions would continue.
Age-limit enforcement

As a condition of approval, Barr agreed to use anonymous shoppers and other methods to check whether pharmacists are enforcing the age restriction.

"I'm sure the FDA will follow through on that and make sure these important conditions are established and enforced," said White House spokeswoman Dana Perino.

Barr hasn't said whether it will raise the price of the pills, which now cost $25 to $40 in prescription form.

Planned Parenthood, the largest dispenser of the pills, expects some insurers to continue covering prescription sales. Whether that would be cheaper will depend on a woman's insurance.

Nine states -- Alaska, California, Hawaii, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Washington and Vermont -- already allow certain pharmacies to sell Plan B without a doctor's prescription to women of any age.

Minors won't see any change in those states, because the pharmacist already technically writes the prescription, the American Pharmacists Association said.

The FDA approved prescription-only sales of Plan B in 1999. The quest to change its status began in 2003. That year, agency advisers endorsed nonprescription sales for all ages, and FDA's staff scientists agreed.

Higher-ranking officials rejected that recommendation, citing concerns about young teens using the pills without oversight. Barr reapplied, asking that women 16 and older be allowed to buy Plan B without a prescription. Then last August, the FDA postponed a final decision indefinitely, saying the agency needed to determine how to enforce the age restrictions.

FDA's handling of Plan B sparked a firestorm, with allegations of political meddling, high-profile resignations, lawsuits and congressional investigations.

The controversy appears to have helped Plan B sales, which are up an estimated 30 percent this year, according to IMS Health Inc., a health care consulting company. Barr estimates pharmacists dispense about 1.5 million packs a year.

Highlighting my own, just to make it easier to skim it if you don't want to read the whole thing.

So what do you think about this? I think there are two major debates at play here:

1. Do you agree or disagree that they should be available over the counter (without prescription)?
2. Do you agree with the current 18+ age restriction on their purchase? Currently, anyone 17 and younger still needs a prescription.

The poll is for quick reference, but I want everyone to post in here and spell out your opinion. And for the love of everything decent in this world, DO NOT turn this thread into an abortion debate. This pill WILL NOT cancel an existing pregnancy.

For me, I'm honestly surprised this is available now, I thought it would take a few more years. I think it's definitely a good thing, but I think the age restriction should be lowered to 16 or 15. Sure, a lot of 18+ women need this, but a lot of young females under 18 need it as well. What are your thoughts?

snowy · 08-24-2006, 01:38 PM

I am all for Plan B being readily available. Before it was OTC, I always requested it, just to have it.

I am glad that the FDA finally woke up and saw the light regarding OTC sales of Plan B, but I wish that they hadn't put an age restriction on it. To me, doing that just prevents kids from being able to get possible help they might need. I also wonder how effective the FDA's plans for enforcement will be.

Gilda · 08-24-2006, 01:41 PM

1. Do you agree or disagree that they should be available over the counter (without precription)?

Absolutely. Making contraception easier and more available is almost always a good thing. Anything that reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies is a good thing, and I think reducing the number of abortions by preventing the need for them is something both sides of the aabortion debate can agree on.

2. Do you agree with the current 18+ age restriction on their purchase? Currently, anyone 17 and younger still needs a precription.

If we truly do want to reduce unplanned teen pregnancies, and I think we do, the age restriction is going to interfere, so on that basis, I think it's a bad idea.

Gilda

Willravel · 08-24-2006, 01:42 PM

I'd rather people were more responsible with plan A, but plan b is a lot safer for the mother than an abortion. While I don't agree with the destruction of the zygote or fetus, this is definately the best solution for someone who won't be having the baby after it's conceived.

JustJess · 08-24-2006, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I'd rather people were more responsible with plan A, but plan b is a lot safer for the mother than an abortion. While I don't agree with the destruction of the zygote or fetus, this is definately the best solution for someone who won't be having the baby after it's conceived.

"Plan B is different from the abortion pill: If a woman already is pregnant, Plan B has no effect."

Jinn · 08-24-2006, 02:06 PM

I'm all for Plan B -- I just wish they could figure out a way to kill the zygote in the case that they are pregnant..

JustJess · 08-24-2006, 02:16 PM

They have. It's called RU486. Which is about the worst name ever, super tasteless.

Quote:

Once pregnancy is confirmed a woman returns to her physician's office for 2 doses of medication. First, she is given one dose of mifepristone, a synthetic steroid, which causes a fertilized egg to be unable to remain attached to the lining of the uterus. The second pill misoprostol, which causes uterine contractions, is taken 2 days later and terminates pregnancy anywhere from 6 hours to one week later. Both pills are taken in the physician's office.

Later a woman must return to her physician for confirmation that the pregnancy was terminated. If the pregnancy is still present a surgical abortion must be performed.

/end threadjack

Elphaba · 08-24-2006, 02:37 PM

I view Plan B as another method of contraception, and it should be available over the counter as are the other means.

The scientific community found nothing to suggest that this pill could be harmful to young women under 18, and certainly birth control pills are available for girls through their doctor. I think the age restriction is at the insistance of those that believe that Plan B would encourage promiscuity among teens. Let's prevent the unwanted pregnancies among teens first, and let the morality police continue their work in negating the power of teen sexuality on their own time.

I like how Washington and other states have handled the age restriction by allowing the pharmacist to write the Rx. It also strikes me as silly that any kind of enforcement on the age restriction is possible. Like alcohol and cigarettes, a teen merely has to ask someone older to purchase the pill for them.

Lady Sage · 08-24-2006, 03:42 PM

I would rather see a plan B than an unwanted pregnancy and untold traumas to mother and child later.

My opinion remains that what one woman does to her body wont make me lose any sleep.

I agree with Sister Elph. Just cause one is not old enough doesnt mean that their older sister or someone they pay to help them out wont buy them for their later consumption. After all, just because someone isnt old enough doesnt mean they are unable to beat the system. In some ways we dont give kids enough credit... and in others perhaps we give them too much.

cookmo · 08-24-2006, 03:51 PM

Yeah, when I was 18 a lot of my female friends/ male friends girlfriends were younger. I was forever going to planned parenthood to get presciptions for them. The lady's there must have thought I was the biggest ho!=)

Ustwo · 08-24-2006, 04:00 PM

Hey baby, don't worry, you can get that morning after pill, come on don't you love me?

Quote:

If a woman takes Plan B within 72 hours of unprotected sex, she can lower the risk of pregnancy by up to 89 percent.

I have no problem with it being over the counter, but I'd predict this will INCREASE unwanted pregnancies not decrease them.

89% odds are not very good when you think of the consequences of that other 11%.

For every one who screws up and uses this as a last resort flush, there will be more who are relying on it.

Elphaba · 08-24-2006, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookmo

Yeah, when I was 18 a lot of my female friends/ male friends girlfriends were younger. I was forever going to planned parenthood to get presciptions for them. The lady's there must have thought I was the biggest ho!=)

Hahahahahaha

I'd volunteer for the young ladies that needed it. Can you imagine the small town talk about a 56 yr old in constant need of Plan B?

highthief · 08-24-2006, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Hey baby, don't worry, you can get that morning after pill, come on don't you love me?

I have no problem with it being over the counter, but I'd predict this will INCREASE unwanted pregnancies not decrease them.

89% odds are not very good when you think of the consequences of that other 11%.

For every one who screws up and uses this as a last resort flush, there will be more who are relying on it.

Then we probably shouldn't sell condoms as they fail and are used incorrectly a significant portion of the time?

Elphaba · 08-24-2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I have no problem with it being over the counter, but I'd predict this will INCREASE unwanted pregnancies not decrease them.

89% odds are not very good when you think of the consequences of that other 11%.

For every one who screws up and uses this as a last resort flush, there will be more who are relying on it.

I am interested in why you believe that, Ustwo. A "last resort flush" would be Plan A, or an early abortion, yes? Like any contraceptive method (the first resort) there will be a percentage of failures, and none are 100% effective.

Willravel · 08-24-2006, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJess

"Plan B is different from the abortion pill: If a woman already is pregnant, Plan B has no effect."

Oh, sorry. I'm 110% for it then. I wish they'd allow youngsters to get it though. That 18 and over stuff is kinda silly.

analog · 08-24-2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

It also strikes me as silly that any kind of enforcement on the age restriction is possible. Like alcohol and cigarettes, a teen merely has to ask someone older to purchase the pill for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Sage

I agree with Sister Elph. Just cause one is not old enough doesnt mean that their older sister or someone they pay to help them out wont buy them for their later consumption. After all, just because someone isnt old enough doesnt mean they are unable to beat the system.

Ooooooooooooooooooooooh ok, so let's go ahead and remove the age restrictions on alcohol and tobacco, too, since there are ways of people getting around it.

In fact, we should all just leave our front doors open at night since it's possible to break into a house anyway.

While I agree that the age restriction is sort of counter-productive to the purpose of the pill, and that enforcement will have its difficulty, this line of reasoning is, in my opinion, stupid. How can you justify lifting restrictions on something because "some people will find a way around it" and won't get caught?

Using that faulty rationale, all laws should be rescinded because some people will find a way around them, or will get away with breaking them.

Lady Sage · 08-24-2006, 04:59 PM

I understand what you are saying, and you are right, rules are there for a reason.

However, if you think there are no underage drinking, smoking or other law breaking behaviors I am afraid you are sadly mistaken.

There will always be loop-holes in everything and people will always find a way around rules and laws. I do not agree with it, but it is the way of the world.

(This post is neither to be construed as fighting nor argument.)

Elphaba · 08-24-2006, 05:06 PM

What an interesting reply, Analog.

My belief that this pill doesn't require an age restriction is based upon the scientific evidence within the agency, that has been ignored by political appointees. But I already stated that in my first post:

Quote:

The scientific community found nothing to suggest that this pill could be harmful to young women under 18, and certainly birth control pills are available for girls through their doctor.

The ability of teens to get around the age restriction of this pill or any other age restricted item was merely a comment on how unlikely I think it will be to enforce this plan.

Faulty thinking? I believe the term "straw man" adequately describes your response. But *that* might be faulty thinking on my part. I responded to your topic in the spirit of respect for the OP. It would appear that it is best that I refrain from posting to your topics. Easily done and not a problem for me.

Ustwo · 08-24-2006, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

Then we probably shouldn't sell condoms as they fail and are used incorrectly a significant portion of the time?

Um does this have anything to do with what I said? I said I think it will increase unwanted pregancies since it has a pretty high failure rate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

I am interested in why you believe that, Ustwo. A "last resort flush" would be Plan A, or an early abortion, yes? Like any contraceptive method (the first resort) there will be a percentage of failures, and none are 100% effective.

I meant last resort from GETTING pregnant, if you want to flush your fetus I'd call that plan C.

Quote:

While withdrawal has been criticized as a non-method, it is 73-96% effective for birth control, depending on the male partner’s self-knowledge and self-control.

Pulling out is as effective as plan B here , so perhaps that should be touted as birth control to the masses as well? All I have stated as I see this being miss used as a method of birth control which will lead to more unwanted pregnancies when people count on this as an option instead of a supplemental which is all it should be used for.

FoolThemAll · 08-24-2006, 06:12 PM

How is pregnancy defined here?

Does it begin at conception or at implantation?

Lady Sage · 08-24-2006, 06:40 PM

That is open for debate and is a matter of personal opinion and which side of science one wishes to support. A discussion in which I shall extricate myself before it even begins.

FoolThemAll · 08-24-2006, 06:52 PM

Let me just be more clear in what I'm getting after, which is not a matter of opinion:

Can Plan B prevent implantation of a fertilized egg?

Elphaba · 08-24-2006, 07:06 PM

No. It cannot end a conception that has already begun.

Edit: I misread your question. A fertilized egg is conception and Plan B would not have any effect on that.

FoolThemAll · 08-24-2006, 07:11 PM

Edit after your edit: Okay. Do you have a source? It isn't clear from this article alone.

Gilda · 08-24-2006, 07:22 PM

Point of information: According to the prescribing information, the 89% recuded chance of pregnancy means that Plan B reduces the expected rate of pregnancy following a single instance of unprotected sex from 8% to 1%.

Gilda

analog · 08-25-2006, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Sage

However, if you think there are no underage drinking, smoking or other law breaking behaviors I am afraid you are sadly mistaken.

I can't tell if you're trying to be funny and failing miserably, or you think i'm 4 years old.

Of course I know those things happen- that doesn't mean you change the law to allow it just because people are going to do it anyway. Even the most wasted potheads know the "people will do it anyway, just legalize it" argument is bunk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

I believe the term "straw man" adequately describes your response. But *that* might be faulty thinking on my part.

It would have to be, since I already said we were on the same side of the argument- the only thing I was pointing out is that making arguments such as yours and Lady Sage's will only hurt our side of the issue. I'm just not sure why you'd present what I can only see as a fallacious argument; that's all i'm saying.

And I hope you don't abandon my threads, I thoroughly enjoy a good conversation, like I've been having.

Aside: A few medical notes...

Fertilization is not pregnancy. If the egg passes without implantation, it is not a pregnancy.

The purpose of the "Plan B" pill is to keep the fertilized egg from implanting- that's all it does.

When a fertilized egg implants itself (note I am not saying "in the uterus", because it's very possible to begin an extrauterine pregnancy), that is when pregnancy begins. The "Plan B" pill is useless and completely ineffectual to an implanted egg; therefore, it is not a method for stopping a pregnancy, only preventing it from beginning.

In other words: If you find it ok that a one-day-old fertilized egg passes without implantation, but have a moral hangup about an egg the same one-day-old being pushed out if it's managed to implant already, this is the pill for you.

shesus · 08-25-2006, 04:43 AM

I think that Plan B is a great idea and just another alternative to save people from unwanted pregnancies. I would think that the abortion people would like it because it is one more avenue to take before terminating a pregnancy. There are a lot of unwanted children in this world and people are going to have sex, why not help prevent ruining an innocent, unborn child's life. As I was reading the article, I was waiting for this argument...

Quote:

Opponents contend that nonprescription availability could increase promiscuity and promote use of the pills by sexual predators.

Sex is a natural thing. Granted, some people will use this as a means to have more sex. That is nature. Just as some people opt to use abortion as a birth control method. But, I think that the argument 'it will make people have more sex' needs to be dropped. First of all, Plan B isn't the only contraceptive. That argument might have been effective when condoms and birthcontrol pills were introduced, but not anymore with all the other pregnancy prevention means.

As for the age thing, I don't think there should be an age restriction. Kids under 18 are having sex and those mistake pregnancies are typically more damaging. People who are against letting kids get this are in denial that they are having sex. People need to see the bigger social picture of what is actually going on with the teens of America...but that's a different topic. So, yes it should be available for girls under 18.

FoolThemAll · 08-25-2006, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

In other words: If you find it ok that a one-day-old fertilized egg passes without implantation, but have a moral hangup about an egg the same one-day-old being pushed out if it's managed to implant already, this is the pill for you.

Ah. In other words, it's not different from the abortion pill in any morally significant way.

Thanks. One vote for "It should be banned".

Lady Sage · 08-25-2006, 06:26 AM

Let us fill the world with more unwanted children..... Personally I would rather see the child not exist than to see or hear of it suffering through its life and being a victim of the system.

I would rather see someone take a pill the morning after than have a wire hanger abortion later.

A pill is also a little less embarassing and demeaning for those of us who are victims of rape.

snowy · 08-25-2006, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

When a fertilized egg implants itself (note I am not saying "in the uterus", because it's very possible to begin an extrauterine pregnancy), that is when pregnancy begins. The "Plan B" pill is useless and completely ineffectual to an implanted egg; therefore, it is not a method for stopping a pregnancy, only preventing it from beginning.

In other words: If you find it ok that a one-day-old fertilized egg passes without implantation, but have a moral hangup about an egg the same one-day-old being pushed out if it's managed to implant already, this is the pill for you.

Actually, according to Planned Parenthood, it doesn't prevent implantation.

Quote:

EC works by either preventing ovulation, which is the releasing of an egg by the ovary, or by preventing fertilization, which is when the sperm joins the egg. EC is a form of contraception, which means it prevents pregnancy before it happens. EC does not cause an abortion in women who are already pregnant, and it won't affect a developing embryo. This is important to keep in mind because those who oppose EC distort the facts, claiming that EC causes abortions rather than prevents pregnancy.

In fact, according to other articles I've seen, studies on animals have shown that EC has no effect either way on implantation if an egg happens to be fertilized. It should be noted, however, that there are occasions, even under normal conditions, where a fertilized egg does not implant, and EC does not seem to make a difference one way or another in the case of implantation.

FoolThemAll · 08-25-2006, 06:57 AM

I've read that birth control pills will sometimes prevent implantation instead of preventing fertilization. Did I read wrong? And if not, then why would a "concentrated dose" of birth control be any different?

NoSoup · 08-25-2006, 10:08 AM

I'm glad that it is available over the counter, a bit surprised that it passed, but glad that it did.

I also believe that the age restriction should be removed - at least in my opinion, unwanted pregnancy is most devastating with younger people (below 18) and miners should also have equal access.

analog · 08-25-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoolThemAll

Ah. In other words, it's not different from the abortion pill in any morally significant way.

Thanks. One vote for "It should be banned".

Uh... no.

It's not the same as "the abortion pill", RU486, because RU486 will terminate a pregnancy (that's what it's designed to do). Plan B will not terminate a pregnancy.

I'm glad people on your side of the argument don't read very thoroughly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoolThemAll

I've read that birth control pills will sometimes prevent implantation instead of preventing fertilization. Did I read wrong? And if not, then why would a "concentrated dose" of birth control be any different?

There are two kinds of birth control pills. Without getting into too much detail, they both thicken cervical mucus which keeps sperm from joining with the egg. One of them also prevents ovulation to begin with, the other one only does that occasionally.

As for what you think you read:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2...ption-pill.xml

Quote:

The hormones in [the two types of pills] also thin the lining of the uterus. In theory, this could prevent pregnancy by interfering with implantation of a fertilized egg. But there is no scientific evidence that this occurs.

I'm constantly amazed at how easy it is for people to make absolute moral judgments on things they aren't educated on.

Val_1 · 08-25-2006, 01:38 PM

I voted "disagree with 18+" restriction. But, really, as long as they could get it OTC with parent's consent, I would be ok with it. Forcing an 18 year old to go to a doctor's office to get a prescription would be stupid. Of course, that does require parents that have an attitude about sex that let's the "18-"s be open and honest with them. So, it wouldn't work so well in Republican's homes <snicker, snicker>

Lady Sage · 08-25-2006, 01:42 PM

I am living proof that some forms of hormonal birth control thin the uterine lining.
Thank the gods too, could you see me with children????? The thought alone is enough to make me want a hysterectomy. Unfortunately they wont do that just cause you dont want kids or dont think you should have them.... (insert various unkind names to call doctors here)

FoolThemAll · 08-25-2006, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

Uh... no.

It's not the same as "the abortion pill", RU486, because RU486 will terminate a pregnancy (that's what it's designed to do). Plan B will not terminate a pregnancy.

I'm glad people on your side of the argument don't read very thoroughly.

My reading comprehension's fine. Yours could use some work. I didn't say they were the same, I said that there was no morally significant difference between the two.

Quote:

There are two kinds of birth control pills. Without getting into too much detail, they both thicken cervical mucus which keeps sperm from joining with the egg. One of them also prevents ovulation to begin with, the other one only does that occasionally.

As for what you think you read:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2...ption-pill.xml

I'm constantly amazed at how easy it is for people to make absolute moral judgments on things they aren't educated on.

Did you notice that I began by asking questions?

Then you gave me an incorrect answer, which onesnowyowl corrected.

If you're going to troll me for making a mistake, it'd be more effective if it wasn't a mistake you also made.

Infinite_Loser · 08-25-2006, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Sage

A pill is also a little less embarassing and demeaning for those of us who are victims of rape.

A very, very, very, very, very small amount of pregnancies occur due to rape.

Anyway, if people would use the birth control methods readily available to them before having sex, they wouldn't need the morning after pill. Of course, that type of thinking is radical now-a-days.

Willravel · 08-25-2006, 03:57 PM

Infinite Loser, Agreed. Less than 1% of abortions are done because of rape and incest combined.

Of course this thread is about plan b, which is preventative by stopping the release of the egg from the ovary, and can prevent fertilization within 72 hours of intercourse. As stated again and again, if you take plan b and are already pregnant, it will not affect your existing pregnancy. Fertilization takes up to 144 hours (6 days) after intercourse, and after fertilization, it can take up to another 144 hours for the fertilized egg to begin to attach itself to the lining of the uterus. AFTER ALL THAT, one is pregnant. Technically, plan b can kill a zygote by detaching or preventing the attachment of the fertilized egg from the lining of the uterus, but it's not technically a pregnancy.

That's where I got confused. Plan B can kill a zygote by preventing it from attaching to the uterus, but it can't prevent pregnancy because one is not pregnant until the zygote is attached to the uterus.

uncle phil · 08-25-2006, 04:09 PM

option 2b should have been in place a long time ago...

analog · 08-25-2006, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoolThemAll

I said that there was no morally significant difference between the two.

A pill that will terminate a pregnancy, versus a pill that will not terminate a pregnancy, are of no significant "moral" difference? How the hell does that work?

And I was wrong. Congratulations. I was remembering incorrectly. I'm not at all above admitting when I was wrong.

Either way, what I said holds true- "Plan B" is not an abortifacient. I just confused the method. I'm not building an entire personal anti-"Plan B" campaign based on erroneous information and foisting my moral judgment on others and demanding they adhere.

If someone says, "I won't use this because I feel _____" that is personal moral opinion- but when someone says to ban them outright for everyone, they're forcing their personal morals on others.

Thank you, snowy, for correcting me- not sure how I got that mixed up.

View Poll Results: Plan B, the "morning-after pill"... check one box for either 1a or 1b AND 2a or 2b.
1a. It's good that this is now available without a prescription.	56	80.00%
1b. I disagree, I think this should be prescription only.	2	2.86%
2a. I agree with the current 18+ restriction for over-the-counter sales.	19	27.14%
2b. I disagree with the 18+ restriction, it should be some lower age.	30	42.86%
I have some other opinion I will share below.	3	4.29%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

08-24-2006, 01:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	I am all for Plan B being readily available. Before it was OTC, I always requested it, just to have it. I am glad that the FDA finally woke up and saw the light regarding OTC sales of Plan B, but I wish that they hadn't put an age restriction on it. To me, doing that just prevents kids from being able to get possible help they might need. I also wonder how effective the FDA's plans for enforcement will be. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

08-24-2006, 01:41 PM	#3 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	1. Do you agree or disagree that they should be available over the counter (without precription)? Absolutely. Making contraception easier and more available is almost always a good thing. Anything that reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies is a good thing, and I think reducing the number of abortions by preventing the need for them is something both sides of the aabortion debate can agree on. 2. Do you agree with the current 18+ age restriction on their purchase? Currently, anyone 17 and younger still needs a precription. If we truly do want to reduce unplanned teen pregnancies, and I think we do, the age restriction is going to interfere, so on that basis, I think it's a bad idea. Gilda __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert

08-24-2006, 02:06 PM	#6 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	I'm all for Plan B -- I just wish they could figure out a way to kill the zygote in the case that they are pregnant.. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

08-24-2006, 06:12 PM	#20 (permalink)
FoolThemAll Walking is Still Honest Location: Seattle, WA	How is pregnancy defined here? Does it begin at conception or at implantation? __________________ I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

08-24-2006, 01:42 PM	#4 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I'd rather people were more responsible with plan A, but plan b is a lot safer for the mother than an abortion. While I don't agree with the destruction of the zygote or fetus, this is definately the best solution for someone who won't be having the baby after it's conceived.

08-24-2006, 02:37 PM	#8 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	I view Plan B as another method of contraception, and it should be available over the counter as are the other means. The scientific community found nothing to suggest that this pill could be harmful to young women under 18, and certainly birth control pills are available for girls through their doctor. I think the age restriction is at the insistance of those that believe that Plan B would encourage promiscuity among teens. Let's prevent the unwanted pregnancies among teens first, and let the morality police continue their work in negating the power of teen sexuality on their own time. I like how Washington and other states have handled the age restriction by allowing the pharmacist to write the Rx. It also strikes me as silly that any kind of enforcement on the age restriction is possible. Like alcohol and cigarettes, a teen merely has to ask someone older to purchase the pill for them.

08-24-2006, 03:42 PM	#9 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	I would rather see a plan B than an unwanted pregnancy and untold traumas to mother and child later. My opinion remains that what one woman does to her body wont make me lose any sleep. I agree with Sister Elph. Just cause one is not old enough doesnt mean that their older sister or someone they pay to help them out wont buy them for their later consumption. After all, just because someone isnt old enough doesnt mean they are unable to beat the system. In some ways we dont give kids enough credit... and in others perhaps we give them too much.

08-24-2006, 03:51 PM	#10 (permalink)
cookmo Insane Location: Ohio	Yeah, when I was 18 a lot of my female friends/ male friends girlfriends were younger. I was forever going to planned parenthood to get presciptions for them. The lady's there must have thought I was the biggest ho!=)

08-24-2006, 04:59 PM	#17 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	I understand what you are saying, and you are right, rules are there for a reason. However, if you think there are no underage drinking, smoking or other law breaking behaviors I am afraid you are sadly mistaken. There will always be loop-holes in everything and people will always find a way around rules and laws. I do not agree with it, but it is the way of the world. (This post is neither to be construed as fighting nor argument.)

08-24-2006, 06:40 PM	#21 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	That is open for debate and is a matter of personal opinion and which side of science one wishes to support. A discussion in which I shall extricate myself before it even begins.

08-24-2006, 06:52 PM	#22 (permalink)
FoolThemAll Walking is Still Honest Location: Seattle, WA	Let me just be more clear in what I'm getting after, which is not a matter of opinion: Can Plan B prevent implantation of a fertilized egg? __________________ I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

08-24-2006, 07:06 PM	#23 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	No. It cannot end a conception that has already begun. Edit: I misread your question. A fertilized egg is conception and Plan B would not have any effect on that. Last edited by Elphaba; 08-24-2006 at 07:09 PM..

08-24-2006, 07:11 PM	#24 (permalink)
FoolThemAll Walking is Still Honest Location: Seattle, WA	Edit after your edit: Okay. Do you have a source? It isn't clear from this article alone. __________________ I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

08-24-2006, 07:22 PM	#25 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	Point of information: According to the prescribing information, the 89% recuded chance of pregnancy means that Plan B reduces the expected rate of pregnancy following a single instance of unprotected sex from 8% to 1%. Gilda __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert

08-25-2006, 06:26 AM	#29 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	Let us fill the world with more unwanted children..... Personally I would rather see the child not exist than to see or hear of it suffering through its life and being a victim of the system. I would rather see someone take a pill the morning after than have a wire hanger abortion later. A pill is also a little less embarassing and demeaning for those of us who are victims of rape.

08-25-2006, 06:57 AM	#31 (permalink)
FoolThemAll Walking is Still Honest Location: Seattle, WA	I've read that birth control pills will sometimes prevent implantation instead of preventing fertilization. Did I read wrong? And if not, then why would a "concentrated dose" of birth control be any different? __________________ I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

08-25-2006, 10:08 AM	#32 (permalink)
NoSoup Non-Rookie Location: Green Bay, WI	I'm glad that it is available over the counter, a bit surprised that it passed, but glad that it did. I also believe that the age restriction should be removed - at least in my opinion, unwanted pregnancy is most devastating with younger people (below 18) and miners should also have equal access. __________________ I have an aura of reliability and good judgement. Just in case you were wondering...

08-25-2006, 01:38 PM	#34 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	I voted "disagree with 18+" restriction. But, really, as long as they could get it OTC with parent's consent, I would be ok with it. Forcing an 18 year old to go to a doctor's office to get a prescription would be stupid. Of course, that does require parents that have an attitude about sex that let's the "18-"s be open and honest with them. So, it wouldn't work so well in Republican's homes <snicker, snicker> __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra

08-25-2006, 01:42 PM	#35 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	I am living proof that some forms of hormonal birth control thin the uterine lining. Thank the gods too, could you see me with children????? The thought alone is enough to make me want a hysterectomy. Unfortunately they wont do that just cause you dont want kids or dont think you should have them.... (insert various unkind names to call doctors here)

08-25-2006, 03:57 PM	#38 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Infinite Loser, Agreed. Less than 1% of abortions are done because of rape and incest combined. Of course this thread is about plan b, which is preventative by stopping the release of the egg from the ovary, and can prevent fertilization within 72 hours of intercourse. As stated again and again, if you take plan b and are already pregnant, it will not affect your existing pregnancy. Fertilization takes up to 144 hours (6 days) after intercourse, and after fertilization, it can take up to another 144 hours for the fertilized egg to begin to attach itself to the lining of the uterus. AFTER ALL THAT, one is pregnant. Technically, plan b can kill a zygote by detaching or preventing the attachment of the fertilized egg from the lining of the uterus, but it's not technically a pregnancy. That's where I got confused. Plan B can kill a zygote by preventing it from attaching to the uterus, but it can't prevent pregnancy because one is not pregnant until the zygote is attached to the uterus.

08-25-2006, 04:09 PM	#39 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	option 2b should have been in place a long time ago... __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.