777

Personally, I believe that motels with hourly rates should offer Plan B right next to the condom vending machine. It's another tool for contraception, right up there with spermicide, birth control pills, and the sponge. The only difference between the morning after pill and the others, is that it can be utilized after sexual intercourse, rather than before the act.

Regarding the age restriction, it's not necesary. If high school age people can buy condoms, then shouldn't they be able to buy Plan B when they forget to bring the condom? Hence, it's name, "Plan B".

They oughta market Plan B in PeZ dispensers. That'll help increase awareness (and sales):thumsup:

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Roger Zelazny

FoolThemAll

Well, it kinda works this way:

Key words here: "the same one-day-old".

I can understand conception as the point - the necessary ingredients are joined and a birth, barring a natural or man-made interruption in the process, is inevitable. I can somewhat understand birth as the point, as the child is no longer biologically reliant on the mother. I can even kinda understand viability as the point, as it looks and acts too much like a human being to be easily dismissed as sub-human by most.

But what's so significant about implantation? Before, it's an embryo with no heartbeat. After, it's an embryo with no heartbeat. It looks like an arbitrary distinction to me. Morally speaking.

Campaign? It's about as much of a campaign for me as it is for you, I'd guess. And I really don't recall making a moral judgment. You might interpret my arguments in favor of criminalization to be implicitly judgmental, but you'd be wrong.

And this argument makes perfect sense for things like porn and marijuana. But it doesn't make much sense when you're talking about the personal choice of infanticide. The debate's over whether Plan Bs are more like porn or more like infanticide. And the debate's over. Apparently, they're more like porn. You can put away your overly simplistic and irrelevant logic, it's not needed anymore.

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analog

I still don't think you understand that fertilization does not occur with the Plan B pill. I accidentally said it prevented "implantation" before, when I meant to say it prevents "fertilization". If fertilization has already occured, it's powerless and ineffectual.

And you're basically saying anything past "sperm meets egg" is infanticide? Even if you were to claim anything past conception is murder, it wouldn't be infanticide. Infanticide is killing an infant, or newborn child. A zygote, the mere union of two gametes (1 ovum, 1 sperm) before they begin replicating and dividing, is not an infant. Not by a long shot.

Also, your "understanding" of viability is incorrect. Viability is when the fetus has developed far enough that it is capable of living, without support, outside of the uterus. This of course has nothing to do with "looking human", as a human fetus resembles a human baby well before viability.

So while the inaccuracies are still flying around- I'll still be here, thanks.

FoolThemAll

I do understand this. I've understood it since onesnowyowl posted it. I'm not sure how you ascertained that I don't understand it. Perhaps you ignored context.

No, I'm not. I'm saying (well, implying, technically) that anything past "sperm meets egg" is like infanticide. Like. Did you really accuse me of poor reading comprehension?

Eh, I'll give you this one. I meant as much when I said "looks and acts too much like a human being", but that's pretty vague wording on my part.

Well, that goes without saying since you're a source of them.

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Gilda

FoolThemAll: You do understand that this is basically a birth control pill that you take the next day, don't you? It only prevents pregnancy, and has no effect once the woman is pregnant. Therefore, any abortion debate is irrelevant to this particular drug.

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Willravel

Foolthemall, read Post #38. I tried to explain how it isn't abortion.

FoolThemAll

Yes, Gilda, I understood this about a page ago. Once it was clarified. ("It only prevents pregnancy" isn't clear enough, by the way.)

My comments are in response to analog's comments.

Willravel, I got that. A page ago. When onesnowyowl explained it. Please try to keep up.

And it doesn't prevent implantation, according to her source.

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analog

No, it is not "like" infanticide. A zygote is in no way "like" an infant. Infanticide is the murder of an infant. Now, tell me that a zygote is "like" an infant. I dare you. Because that's what you're trying to say to cover for using the word in the first place.

I made one error in my writing, which didn't even change the tone or meaning of what I was saying. I immediately admitted to my slip-up. So now you can stop pretending like I'm making shit up. How did you come into this conversation looking to get information to form your opinion, and all you've done is bicker with the people trying to inform you? I wonder how many people have to say, "you don't appear to understand" before a person accepts that they don't understand something.

hulk

I don't think people will be relying overly on this, purely for the fact that it doesn't prevent STIs in any way, shape or form. Condoms do, and this is a backup if the condom fails.

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Willravel

Well, I asked my doctor, and he said it can prevent implantation. Also, I visited the Plan B website, and it confirmed my doctors information.
Plan B stops working the moment the egg attaches to the uterus. Everything before hand is fair game.

Just so we're clear, a woman isn't technically pregnant until the fertilized egg attaches itself into the endometrial lining of a woman's uterus.
So it's not like infanticide any more than eating an egg is like eating chicken. It's two distinct things with two distinct moral implications.

I'm anti abortion, and pro contraceptive. I am all for the Plan B.


Also, pregnant women are really hot.

Ch'i

I think it's a good idea.

Infinite_Loser

Of course, if people were more serious about plan-A we wouldn't need a plan-B to begin with (Who am I kidding? People aren't that responsible)...

Call me a pessimist, but I'm willing to bet that one day there'll be a plan-C for those people who didn't take advantage of plan-A nor plan-B, and then there'll be a plan-D for those people who didn't take advantage of plan-A nor plan-B nor plan-C, and then there'll be etc. etc.

On one hand, it could be a good thing but on the other hand, it's sure to increase reckless behavior (These types of things usually do) as more people will think that they can forgo traditional birth control methods and opt for plan-B.

Edit: By the way, why do the poll results add up to a number greater than 100%?

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analog

If I remember correctly, it's because you can check more than one box. Each % denotes how many times that option was checked over the total number of votes- not checked boxes, but instances of voting. So if 4 people voted, it's showing what percentage of those 4 people chose each box. If they all chose box 1, box 1 would say 100% because 100% of those voting chose that box. If half of them also chose box 2 and the other half also chose box 3, 2 and 3 would each say 50% because half of all voters checked that box. See?

And since the last option has 3 people who ticked it, and it says 5% (at this moment), that means a total of 60 people voted.

Edit: I didn't realize it, but it tells you at the bottom of the poll how many total voters there were. My math was right, but I didn't realize it gave the number to us. lol

FoolThemAll

I implied that abortifacient drugs and abortions are more like infanticide than they are like porn because they harm a human being (yeah, I know, you disagree) as infanticide does, they're not an inherently harmless taboo as porn is. That's the point of the comparison, nothing more.

It certainly did change the meaning. Do you really not see how one could find a significant difference between preventing fertilization and destroying a fertilized egg?

It's not the mistake that bothered me, it's the fact that you proceeded to be snide about my subsequent mistake - which was, by the way, taking you at your word.

"You don't appear to understand" is worlds more useful when directed at someone who doesn't understand. I 'bicker' because they happen to be incorrect about my lack of understanding. What else would I do?

Fantastic. Conflicting answers. We're right back to stage one, where it's not at all clear that Plan B has nothing to do with abortion.

Just so we're clear, I couldn't care less about the start of pregnancy when the start of pregnancy is defined as implantation. I do not see anything morally significant about that point. "She isn't pregnant yet" doesn't explain anything, it's just a way of restating "the egg isn't implanted yet". Why does that point matter?

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Willravel

No conflict, I'm right. Either way it has nothing to do with abortion. Whether it does or doesn't prevent implantation, it doesn't actually do anything after implantation, so it's not abortion. It walks right up to the line, but it doesn't cross it.
It matters because it's the difference between a contraceptive and an abortion. There does have to be a definable line between the two, doesn't there? I mean that's the whole point, yes? The start of pregnancy IS implantation, therefore anything that happens before implantation is contraceptive by definition. Anything that happens after implantation is abortion.

I'm surprised at your statement: What do YOU define as the beginning of pregnancy, and what credentials do you have that supercede the whole medical community?

Do these pills promote reckless and irresponsible behavior? Of course. I never got anyone pregnant before I got married, and I have no problem looking down my nose at people who do because they can't keep it in their pants. I have no problem lecturing people on how simple it is to not fuck everything that walks, and how contraceptives are easy to use, etc. The thing is, all my huffing and puffing won't stop people from doing anything. They'll still go out and shag, many without protection. There will be more unplanned pregnancies, and many more abortions. Because I clearly can't stop people from being irresponsible ponces when it comes to unproteted sex, all I can do is try to help them avoid having an abortion. Call it plan B.

Ustwo

Plan B sounds like an excellent adjunct to keep those who's genes and viewpoints I would not like to see in the next generation from reaching said generation.

Ain't science grand?

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FoolThemAll

But it's not clear that there's a significant moral difference.

But what moral difference is there between an abortion and a contraceptive that prevents implantation? I don't see one, unless you're going by the viability criterion (and I don't).

I'm not interested in a semantics argument. I accept this definition of pregnancy. I do not accept that the start of pregnancy, as defined, is morally significant.

That's not my concern in this thread. My concern is whether reckless and irresponsible behavior endangers human life. Now it looks like it does.

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Willravel

Of course it's reckless, and of course it is dangerous. Idiot people can't control their sexuality and it's partially to blame for overpopulation. If it were up to me, there would only be abortion in the extreme cases of rape or incest. Of course it's not up to me, so I do what I can to promote contraceptives like Plan B.

Maybe I should ask you this: are you against condoms, spermacide, or the regular pill?

Gilda

One important point to note, since part of the discussion is now focusing on implantation, is that the primary function of Plan B is prevention of fertilization. It can prevent implantation, but that is not its primary function, just as, for example, dutasteride prevents hair loss by reducing DHT levels, but is designed for the purpose of treating prostate disease.

Fertilization takes a day or two at a minimum and can take longer than that. If the Plan B is takn in that time, it effectively prevents fertilization. Preventing implantation, and thus preventing the pregnancy in the first place, is a secondary effect, just as with birth control pills, which function in much the same way.

Gilda

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FoolThemAll

Condoms, no. Spermicide, no. Pill, assuming that analog erroneously 'corrected' my understanding of it, yes.

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Ustwo

While this would be important information if you could know what stage you were in when you were taking it, since you can not, its sort of irrelevant. If you thought of abortion as morally wrong, then could you support an 'emergency' method of birth control which may or may not be causing termination after conception? I would think not.

My fear of course is that plan B will be used by some as a primary birth control not an emergency one which will cause an increase in unwanted pregnancies. I still hold as a rule that those who wish to remain out of the gene pool should be allowed to, as it will be beneficial to the gene pool.

Not completely true....

Emergency contraceptives are not effective if the woman is already pregnant. Plan B is believed to act as an emergency contraceptive principally by preventing ovulation or fertilization (by altering tubal transport of sperm and/or ova). In addition, it may inhibit implantation (by altering the endometrium).

It does prevent fertilization, but it also prevents implantation after fertilization. (That info is from the perscribing information for doctors)

Me too.

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filtherton

I didn't know you were catholic.

I'm all for plan b. I have no problem with "killing" previable unborn babies either, not that that's what plan b does at all.

Willravel

Oral contraceptive:
What's with the misconceptions? The information on these products is readily available to anyone who can google.

lurkette

I can't imagine that it will be inexpensive enough to be used as "primary birth control." If you have to take it after every episode of sex, and it's OTC and therefore not covered by most insurance programs, it's not going be cheaper than, say, condoms.

Would you care to state who those people are that you would like "out of the gene pool"? This is not at all consistent with some of your other statements on reproduction. Speaking as someone who's sitting at the cabana at the moment, but not yet in the gene pool...

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Willravel

Maybe I can field this one. When I was a lot younger and just learning about ideas like natural selection and evolution, I figured that natural selection worked with humans for hundreds of thousands of years, but was becoming less prevelant because of medicines and modern empathy (allowing mentally or physically retarded children to live). Looking back, my attitude was infantile and morally reprehensable, but I had that attitude none the less. Later I realzed a few things:
1) Morals are a large part of what seperates us from less intelligent animals. It is an important facet of our humanity, and it something to develope and understand, not something to ignore. Morality is important.
2) If someone is born and survives, that is because the environment allows for it. If a child is born with a disability and survives, that is because he or she lives in a society that can care for a disabled person. Because we, as a socierty, are able to pity and empathize with those who are less fortunate, the reality of living in our environment, and thus natural selection, has changed.

So when Ustwo is (hopefully joking) about keeping people out of the gene pool, he is referring to a way of thinking without the above considerations.

Ustwo

Its not the price that worries me it’s the, 'Don't worry baby, we will go and get the morning after pill tomorrow.' angle that does.

One thing to remember is that every one of us who is alive today is here because of an unbroken chain of people who reproduced. The desire to not reproduce is as big a flaw, genetically, as sterility. In the end it doesn't matter what you do, your line has ended. The types of people who tend to commit genetic suicide also tend to be the types of people who I think are flawed in their political views. And really you have to wonder, if someone does not seem to think species survival is important, just how sound their judgement is when it comes to other matters of survival. Rejecting what is basic, 4 billion years old, and necessary for survival, for whatever reason, makes you have to trust their judgement in other matters. Now obviously just using this plan b or any other birth control doesn't mean you won't reproduce, hell my wife was on the pill for 10 years, but I would like to keep it safe and easy for all who wish it and I'd hate for them to have an accident, though they can always have an abortion.

Now while this may seem cold and calculating, its not. I simply want people to live their lives in a manner that works for them, and if there are benefits in the long run, all the better.

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filtherton

The problem with the idea that abortion keeps people out of the gene pool is that a great many people who have abortions also have children at some point. People who get abortions aren't removed from the gene pool. Access to abortions does tend to reduce the number of unwanted children in the world, which is generally a good thing for the rest of us.

edit:ustwo addressed this while i was typing my post.

FoolThemAll

Yeah, I would've been better off with google instead of relying on answers given in this thread. But hey, hindsight's 20-20.

So you're arguing that Plan B can prevent implantation, but the pill can't. Is that right?

From that link, it appears that scientists lean toward "the pill doesn't prevent implantation", though the issue isn't settled. Sound right to you?

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Willravel

Correct (as far as I know). I suspect that the pill can prevent implantation, but it is less likely to do so than Plan B.

MINCKEN

When did this become a LIFE BEGINS debate? Get back on point! Should the pill be OTC? YES! Is a restriction based on age needed. NO!

Now get on the web:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-in...ortion#Methods


"Religions take everything that your DNA naturally wants to do to survive and pro-create and makes it wrong."

FoolThemAll

Considering that Plan B - apparently - is capable of preventing implantation, I disagree that a "LIFE BEGINS debate" is off-point.

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Sultana

It's always beneficial to define terms so there is a standardized platform, so people are certain what they are agreeing to or disagreeing with. I know that certain branches of Christianity at least teach that life begins with the union of the sperm and the egg, and the process of zygote implantation is not a consideration in their abortion stance. To folks with that view, I believe they would consider daily b/c to be morally unacceptable.

If people's vote in this poll depends on their view of when life begins, then this discussion is part and parcel of the thread. If folks request and give input/clarification, snarkiness not withstanding, thats a viable part of the thread.

I'm glad Plan B is OTC. I am torn about whether it should be available to under-age kids, as on one hand many kids will need it frankly, and will not get it if they have to involve their parents.

On the other hand, if this kind of thing is happening in a family, I do think the parents should know about it. Who knows what else the kid is doing/going through, and the parents could help. I don't imagine that all the parents in America would be so horrible to their kids that it would be horribly traumatic to get the parents informed/involved. Getting parents involved at that stage could prevent things from going to bad to worse. It's called consequences, and I'm not huge on making it so easy for children to avoid it (avoid getting the parents involved, I DO NOT mean don't make it easy for kids to avoid teen pregnancy).

Regarding the arguement that it will lead to greater levels of dangerous promiscuous behavior (resulting in pregnancy, anyways)...I disagree. When I researched RU486 back in college (lo these many years ago, admittedly), studies showed that there weren't a greater number of abortions being performed, just that a percentage were being done with the pharmaceuticals, rather than a full-blown medical procedure. Yes, I know studies and research can be slanted. I read more than one, so *shrug*. Anyways, I think Plan B would be used in much the same way. In the end, one needs to focus on the intention of the pharmaceutical's use, rather than the potential mindset of the potential consumer (and yes of course I realize that this pharmaceutical has the potential for abuse, just like every single other one out there, lurking on drugstore shelves. I often have to ask a store clerk to unlock the antihistamines I need because of the meth makers. Grrr). There has been promiscuity and unwanted babies for millenia, just now we have a few more tools to hopefully address the prevention of the issue.

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