G5_Todd

going to shoot it for the first time on saturday....

i just got home from bct and i wanted to stay familiar with it so i bought me one.....


i didnt realize all the mods i you can get for it....my first purchase is going to be a new sight.....then im gonna get a new hand guard and a few accessories for that

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hrdwareguy

Nice looking toy. Looks alot like mine. I purchased an adaptor that screws onto the handle for a scope mount. All kinds of stuff you can put on the hand guards if you get the ones with picanty rales. A buddy of mine has a tactical lever on the charging handle. Makes it a lot easier to lock and load with that as well.

Have fun with it.

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ziadel

what is that exactly?

a bushmaster? rock river?

lemme know how she shoots, accuracy is almost a given, but reliability wise, lemme know...

I'm about to wade into the cesspool that is the AR market soon

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G5_Todd

will do....ill bring my camera and a couple of watermellons

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longbough

I'll bet it's a bushy. I've got a 16" flattop Colt H-Bar myself. Nice weapon.

As tempting as it is, I'd strongly advise against accessorizing it just yet. Learn how to shoot it with the iron sights first ... and shoot the hell out of it before you start shopping. In fact, you ought to think about attending a school like Gunsite or Front Sight or Thunder Ranch - enrol in an introductory tactical carbine/pistol course ... believe me, you'll enjoy your weapon soooo much more if you do - the sooner the better.

But one thing you do need now is a good sling. I use a CQB SOP 3-point sling for my AR.

Then after you know your weapon you can start exploring rail systems, Aimpoint Comp sights (or Trijicon ACOGs), vertical foregrip assemblies etc ....

The important thing is learning to shoot ... building a ricer doesn't mean you can win the Monaco Grand Prix.

It's the same with guns.

Congrats and keep us updated on your toy!

G5_Todd

funny post lol.....

im in the army.....so i can shoot with the iron sights.......

i shot it today it shoots like a dream.....

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ziadel

any malfunctions?

and what brand is it?

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G5_Todd

its a bushmaster......

no malfunctions......


i noticed today that bushmaster makes a .308 or 7.62 version.....

might have to be a future purchase

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longbough

You'll find more than one .308 discussion in these boards if you search ... I'll cut to the chase and say your best bet would be to go with a Springfield Armory M1A or an FN-FAL (DS Arms or Arizona Response Systems built would be your best bets).

A bushy .308 isn't gonna be much different than the Armalite AR-10, I suppose, but there are many reasons why I'd be wary of getting one. First of all, the BM .308 is designed to accept unaltered FAL metric magazines. In doing so they had to eliminate the 6 o'clock locking lug on the bolt to utilize the mag and its feed angle, which was designed for a tipping bolt rifle (FAL). This significantly weakening the lock-up and was, not coincidentally, a primary reason why DPMS and Armalite decided against the FAL magazine for their AR-10 design. The BM .308 has been reported to have bolt failures and BM has now discontinued the .308 rifle models. Why not just get the rifle for which the FAL magazines were made?

The FAL and the M1A are battle-proven .308s and you'd never go wrong with either rifle IMO. Some would call the FN-FAL the best battle-rifle in the world (I include my own, admittedly, biased opinion as a proud owner of an 18" DSA Belgian Congo FAL).

Here's a photo of my own FAL posted for about the 20th time (apologies to the regulars who've seen this photo before - Can I help it if I love my rifle?):

ziadel

forget FAL's man...

its all about the inertia delayed roller locking goodness.

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Suave

Longbough, don't worry about it. Your FAL is to gun porn like seeing Jessica Alba naked (knock on wood). I shall never tire of it.

ziadel: the G3 is kind of ugly compared to the FAL though. :P

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ziadel

eh, I personally think the G3 is better looking...

but they both have their perks..

I just like not having a gas system to foul up.

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longbough

I've never used a G3 but at least 2 of my buddies sold theirs because they hated how the "delayed roller" amplified the recoil of .308. They also mentioned that the trigger was "cheap." I can't testify to that since I've never handled, much less shot, one. One of them switched to FALs (he bought more than one) and the other is waiting until he can afford one.

The G3 has an interesting history. In the mid-1956 Germany adopted the FAL for its military and called it the G1 ... however, Belgium refused to sell them the manufacturing license that would allow German-built FALs. So Germany purchased the manufacturing license for the Spanish CETME rifle and turned it over to the HK. In 1959 the slightly modified CETME/HK G3 was adopted by W. Germany.

The key reason of popularity of the G3 in many countries including Greece, Iran, Mexico, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Sweden and Turkey is that it is much simpler and cheaper to manufacture, than its major contemporary rivals - Belgian FN FAL and US M14. The G3 is built using as many stamped parts as possible. The receiver is stamped from sheet steel. The trigger unit housing along with pistol handle frame, also are stamped from steel and hinged to the receiver using the cross-pin in the front of the trigger unit, just behind the magazine housing. Earliest G3 rifles also featured stamped handguards and CETME-type flip-up rear diopter sights.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm bashing the G3 - I've never shot one so I can't testify to any personal experience with it. I agree that the G3 is a damn pretty gun, but I'm not sure it's worth the inflated HK price for a modern CETME.

ziadel

first off, CETME's are the softest shooting large caliber guns I've ever had the pleasure of shooting.
second, these are military rifles, they all have crap triggers.
did you buddy's have G3's or CAI Cetme's?
theres a difference, a big difference, and I agree that HK g3's arent worth what they cost, but that point is moot now that we have JLD enterprises making HK clones, on HK tooling that shoot BETTER than HK G3's..

G3's are definately more accurate, and you'll never get close (in full-auto trim) to the ROF produced by a roller locking firearm with a gas system...


I've said it before, the CETME family is the only weapon I know of that will continue to function with it's extractor removed. The Kalashnikov's won't even do that.

I'm not sure if your saying that the G3 is easy to manufacture as a disadvantage to the weapon, but theres nothing wrong with a stamped receiver. stampings are fast and fast is cheap, and cheap is good.

and the HK is not a 'modern cetme' theres really no difference between the guns, the HK has different sights, thats about all the difference you'd notice. a LOT of parts are interchangeable.

I can tell you REALLY like world.guns.ru

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Suave

I like the overall shape of the G3, but parts of it are FUGLY. I think it would be equally as pretty as the FAL if it was more polished (like the look of the HK33 and MSG90).

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kinsaj

Edited out for personal stupidity.

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WillyPete

In SOuth Africa, the instructors used to wind up the front fold-down grenade site.
It tightens the gas chamber release nozzle, increasing recoil.

And then watch the poor buggers move back a few inches whilst shooting prone on the range.
Big boys cry when that happens.

Must admit, I did love the FAL.
I was knocking down 8x8inch steel plates with each shot from 400 metres on iron sights on my first day with it.

ziadel

I said EXTRACTOR, not EJECTOR.

two totally different parts.


as for saying its stupid, well, it's an integral part of the guns functioning, and if it can function without it, it simply speaks to the robustness of the design.


I dont know of any firearm that will function without its ejector.

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kinsaj

Sorry... misread.

And yes, i know the difference. I don't want to get in an argument with you, ziadel; I greatly respect your opinion on this forumn.. and you just blew me out of the water with this post.. with the way I read it at least. Sorry for the mix-up.

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ziadel

dude, dont be so hard on yourself, it was just a simple misread

no big deal here


and I appreciate your respect, and I'll try not to let it goto my head


but yeah, no bigee here.

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longbough

lmao. busted. My limited experience with the G3 is through the opinions of my friends and from sites like world.guns.ru (lmao - good catch).
I'm sure the G3 is a terrific weapon - FYI my buddies had the G3, not the CETME. I do have one friend who owns and loves his CETME. I won't make some chickenshit backhanded claim that the G3 is an inferior weapon through second and third hand information. But I won't spare any opportunity to sing praises for the FAL which I love.
I'll concede that the G3 is probably a fine weapon - but don't even try to convince anyone it's an objectively superior weapon to the FAL ... let's just say there are arguments on both sides of the equation.

longbough

I've heard that opinion before - I'll give you that, but we're talking about the G3. And I've also heard the G3 has a sharper recoil than both the CETME and the FAL for that matter.
Yeah, but I heard the G3 stock triggers are worse than the M1A1 and FALs.
Both of them had the HK G3 - one of them is a dealer. The other fella payed full price (minus any LEO discount, I'd guess). As I mentioned above, I know one guy with a CETME who adores it.
I don't know anything about the clones - Are they really better than the G3?

Affecting the accuracy of the stock FAL is its relatively lousy sights for target shooting - But the same sights are quite sufficient in a battle rifle.

High full auto ROF is not a mark of excellence (or even desirable) in a battle rifle , so that comparison is entirely irrelevant.

The issue of full auto is even less important when you're talking about .308. Have you ever shot .308 full auto without a bipod? It's comical. Its just about impossible to master in an FAL and I understand the G3 is no different in that respect.

How does this make the CETME a better weapon?

[cheapshot mode]I was just saying it's cheap. I'm glad you agree. But why would I want to pay $1300 for a cheap gun?[/cheapshot mode]

That site really helps me sound knowledgable in forums ...


Remember, you started this exchange by taking the first shot at FALs, pal

ziadel

ya know, I'd respond point by point to this, but you've never shot a CETME, or a G3, or anything like it, and therefore have no real basis besides to form any sort of counter argument...

so why bother?




actually, I'll respond a little bit.


cetme = g3 they're virtually the same thing, so lets not split hairs here. the cetme is softer shooting, any g3 can be the exact same way with a simple buffer.

I think the M1A triggers and FAL triggers might be a bit better, because the CETME family is the only one that uses actual military parts (I seem to remember some big changes having to be made to the FAL design to get it into the country, as it would be very easy to make full-auto otherwise, this could very well have resulted in civilian only trigger parts that did'nt have that military 15 pound pull, just a theory tho, I'll research a bit more) and the M1A is not a military rifle.


and yes the JLD enterprises clones are regarded as being more accurate than HK guns, that;s a fact, the heavy barrel that JLD uses also keeps it a wee bit more heat resistant.

while ROF may not be desirable in a battle rifle, it does become an issue when used as a squad automatic weapon which these could have to do.

I'd admit to shooting a full auto G3 if it wasn't illegal. but it is, so I would have never come across one, so not coming across one I couldnt tell you that shooting it wasnt as bad as many make it out to be. was controllable if you kept it within reason (don't go blowing off a whole mag)


as for the extractor thing, well, how does the fact that it doesnt need all its part to operate properly NOT make it a shoe in for the reliability gold medal?

I'm not saying a FAL won't operate in some pretty adverse conditions, but keep this in mind. The more you crank up that gas system, the more wear and tear there is on the gun AND the shooter. No such adjustments necessary with inertia delayed roller locking firearms, just shoot and shoot. No gas system to maintain either.


Now, why you would want to pay more for a gun thats cheaper to make, well, because its better.
Let's keep in mind here exactly what is the gold standard in semi-auto rifle accuracy.
It's not a National Match variant M14... (although it could be certainly)
It's CERTAINLY not the FAL...
It is the PSG-1, a roller locking firearm with a stamped receiver. That's the gold standard for accuracy from a semi-automatic weapon.

Now, seeing as how you;ve never actually SHOT a cetme and are getting all of your information second hand from internet sites, I'll prove just what a big guy I am and tell you the achilles heel of the roller locking system.

brass.

ammunition.

the system works so well, that if there is any weakness in the cartridge casing the gun will simply rip it apart.

thats the flaw.

did gun.ru mention that?


I'm not saying the FAL is a bad weapon, quite the contrary, I think it is quite good. Not many people realize just how close it came to being 'the gun that came after the garand', and personally, I think the United States would have stuck with the 7.62 round a bit longer if we had.


now, longbough, seriously, get your ass out there and beg borrow or steal a g3/cetme and shoot the fucking thing.

then tell me what you think.

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longbough

you're just restating what I said. I never claimed that the CETME was a crappy weapon - I only responded to your G3 worship and FAL trashing with every other opinion that comes to mind.
And to keep it all in perspective, your opinion and experience with the G3/CETME is no more cogent than those of my friends whose conclusions are entirely different than yours.

It's not illegal - If you're a civilian it's just a little more difficult (and may require a bit of travel) ... but it's not illegal.

I'm still waiting to hear about your "extensive experience" with the FAL on which you can make your claims.
Are we talking about battle rifles or target rifles? When we're talking about the G3's crappy trigger you excuse it since it was intended to be a battle rifle. With accuracy it's the same deal - match-grade accuracy doesn't make a battle rifle. In actual battle the FAL's accuracy more than sufficient - so even if the G3 were slightly more accurate you should consider that it's not enough to make it a better battle rifle. You can't have it both ways. And an accurate rifle with a crappy trigger isn't going to perform much better than a less accurate rifle with a slightly better trigger.

Don't take my sincerity as permission for you to act magnanimous (geez) ... go shoot an FAL.

ahem ... do I even need to ask about your personal background with the FAL? If you, honestly, had any experience with the FAL you would have compared your shooting experiences with the G3 by now.

Face it, your opinion of the FAL is based on as much second-hand information as my impressions of the CETME. The only difference is that I've been honest about it from the start and you're the only one still trying to prove one system is better than the other.

... go shoot an FAL and I'll try the G3 ... deal?

ziadel

Yes I can. The trigger can be shot around, people have made awful triggers work, you can deal with that, but if the bullets dont go where you point the gun, theres really no working around that

and yes I've shot plenty of FAL's, ergonomics are horrible. Why do you think Tapco is making so much money selling SAW grips and stocks for these things? also, the sights dont compare with HK's rotary drum peep sights. I did'nt bring it up because it doesnt really matter, I'm sure it works for some people, I'm just not one of them.



when I get a higher end FAL clone, I'll do some real world reliability testing. I think you will be surprised.


chilek and I have discussed this, but I think that you think I'm a bigger critic of the FAL than I really am

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longbough

Then you should know that the problem with the FAL's accuracy has more to do with the iron sights than anything else. The front sight is mounted on the upper and the rear sight is on the lower ... with aftermarket sights (I see a Comp M in my future) that's even easier to remedy than a creepy trigger. But let's face it, you're going to work to get the best out of your rifle weather it's an FAL or G3 - it's pointless to quibble over issues like that...
A new DSA is made with brand new Badger barrel. I've heard a DSA FAL is capable of sub-moa, but I'll believe it when I see it. I can't testify to that because the rifle still shoots better than I do since I'm mostly a hangunner (BTW- just purchased a brand new Kimber Custom Eclipse II .45 - Hooray for me but blast that California 10 day waiting period.).

Even with my semiauto pistols I don't need match barrels, porting, adjustable sights etc - I'm not a target shooter - I study defensive tactics. Factory barrels are sufficient. Just give me a good trigger, good sights and a gun that goes "bang" when it's supposed to. That's true for my pistols as well as rifles. Some of my friends enjoy shooting 30-06 out to 1000 yards ... I don't. I've studied close quarters more than anything else - that's why I've got an 18" barrel on my FAL rather than 21". That's why I've got a 3 point SOP sling. That's why I'll probably get a Comp M sight instead of a scope - after I train with it.

Well that's a relief to hear.
I should get together with chilek and we'll beat you up in the playground after school

"higher end FAL clone?" Don't even bother with the Century Arms or Enterprise POS FALs. Their manufactured parts are reverse engineered from FAL parts which just wrecks havoc with the tolerances - and you can see that in the variable quality of their rifles. The only FAL makers I'd trust today would be Arizona Response Systems or DS Arms. I'd rather pay double for a good product than gamble for the price of a Century or Enterprise. BTW - you can offset my criticism of the G3's price because I payed $1800 ish to have my DSA built for me.

In fact the DSA is probably the best built FAL of all time ... even better tolerance and performance than the original military item. DSA working with the original Steyer blueprints uses modern CNC technology to assemble rifles instead of single stage machining like in the old days.

I think the FAL has wonderful ergonomics. The charging handle on the left side allows me to manipulate it with my support side, not my firing hand. The magazine release can be reached by my index finger and I can swap mags much more quickly (and positively) than with my AR. The safety lever could be a long reach with your thumb - but with practice it's no big deal.

One thing is for sure ... the DSA FAL is a sexy bitch ... Don't even think of talking trash about my woman .... or else I'll.... I'll .... I shall taunt you mercilessly....

longbough

Time for a "family" photo (visible SNs are photoshopped and jumbled)