Jetée

Actually, that's the exact point of feminism (sans the not). Give the women in society the right to choose their own course of life, not catering to the whims of authoritative "father figures", and disallowing the prejudices of higher society's limitations, telling them what they can and cannot achieve in life.

Honestly, though, it's fine if MMA is not your ideal form of entertainment, or even if you find it barbaric; but to continue this flawed contention, and parading around supposed reasons as to why it should not be typified as a sport, such as them spotlighting former professional wrestlers, or having fledgling female combatants, is just not the way to truly argue the point. Cheap shots, hitting a man when he's down, battling within a cage, and constantly comparing it to boxing shows that you are trying to promote something or other, and only wish to disparage the rapid rise of what has nearly become an internationally-recognized and worldwide sport, with its popularity only set to rise even further.


I don't mean to liken this to you SF, but the way this thread has progressed, it hauntingly reminds me of ESPN's tactic of not even recognizing or promoting MMA for the longest time, as if they were shunning its popularity, and just one unexpected Monday, they update their entire format and site to hop in on the bandwagon of MMA as if they were there from the beginning. Now, you, however, haven't progressed as far, but you sure don't want to admit how much striving went into the prodoct that the UFC and other leagues have gone through to make it to this point in the media spectrum. They toiled hard and long to be taken seiously as a sanctioned sport, and it should be no surprise at this marvel, seeing as how this form of contest was popular even centuries past, times of the original Olympics, you know. it wasn't called "MMA", it probably wasn't even called 'wrestling', but it was as such a duel between two strong contestants, little to no holds barred, until there was a deciding victor. If that is not the base definition of sporting, well, I don't know what you think is.

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

Strange Famous

Women do not belong in combat sport. Full stop. 95% of the population agree with this view very strongly (at least)

Feminism doesnt aim to ape male behaviour.

Women should not be forced (or manipulated) into having to fight against ther natural state: anymore than men can give birth.

There are many sports women compete with skill, daring, and dynamism. We do not want to see women with cauliflower ears, noses broken over an over, scarred forehards, cracked ribs... just talking about this is actually making me feel nauseus to be honest.

Even boxing is a tough sport. Are you saying we should be happy to see a woman knocked out? Her face bloodied with hooks and jabs?

And how much worse in MMA - where the only rules area couple of prohibitions against the most revolting excesses of hooliganism (I believe ther are rules against deliberate blinding, biting, striking in the crotch, and attacking the referee - maybe a few others of a similar ilk) otherwise it is free for all when any kind of violence is allowed

Even the most muderous "sport" of all, the crazed Muay Thai - where fighters are encouraged to crack their opponents skull with their elbows or knee's, and fighters often dip their "gloves" in resin and then ground up glass before fights. Do you want to see females compete in this?

Come on! There has to be some limits of human decency.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

ok.. dude.. just stop. this thread is over. Seriously.

You can't be spouting some random stats without some form of proof.. you have no clue what feminism is yet you wave it's flag. Who said anything about being happy about seeing a woman get bloodied? If she choses to engage in that act, it is her decision and she should be allowed to do so. Nobody is forcing these women to fight. Who's holding the gun against their heads??

you keep spouting this shit about MMA yet you have not bothered to look up any real facts behind the SPORT and you continually turn a blind eye when they are presented in this thread.

..and now... you bring Muay Thai into this. which I happen to have studied for a while.. not ONCE was I encouraged to kill anyone or dip my gloves in some resin and put foreign objects on them. In fact, if you take a quick look, you'll find that in Thailand, often times they would prefer to fight bare knuckle. That's far from having glass on your gloves.

SO here's the deal. This thread is done unless you can come back with a decent argument in a real framework of fact and not opinion.

I'm sure 95234928490328% of people would agree that this thread should have been closed long ago due to it's trolling behaviours and it's lack of any real basis for the boxing crowd to stand on other than a pile of shit.

---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

and while you're at it, go back and read Jetee's post again. It's pretty much the win.

silent_jay

That's the problem, he doesn't watch it, he fancy's a guess and automatically thinks he's right. I'd totally watch more if they wore bikini's, may get to see some side boob action.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Baraka_Guru

You're entitled to that opinion, SF, but you are no feminist. Especially considering this statement:

Women should not be forced (or manipulated) into having to fight against ther natural state: anymore than men can give birth.

So it's unnatural for women to fight to the degree that men are incapable of giving birth? (Both of which are untrue, btw.)

I have an assignment for you. The next time you are in a shopping mall, walk up to a random mother with a toddler and try to take the child away from her.

Be sure to brace for impact. Multiple impact.

Beautiful, wonderful, natural state.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

The_Dunedan

Source for your statistical claim? And who are you, a MAN, to tell a woman where she does or doesn't belong? Sounds awfully sexist to me.

You try "forcing" a woman like Gini Lau or Laura Truley or Michelle Krasnoo to do -anything- she doesn't want to. These ladies break people for recreation, they're not likely to be "forced" into anything.

Meaning -you- don't want to see those things. Some of us have no problem with it; I personally find it HOT AS HELL when a lady's got fight scars. Again, keep YOUR (male) prejudices off those bad-ass women's rights.

As students of the martial arts and the warrior culture, YES, if that's what the lady in question wants!

You complain that a former WWE "wrestler" being an MMA champion automatically invalidates MMA, and yet hereby demonstrate to have gotten your knowledge of Muy Thai from a bad Van Damme movie. You have just forfeited, totally, your right to any opinion regarding martial arts, mixed or otherwise.

None of which entail being so utterly bone-headed as to try preventing a hard-assed woman fighter from pursuing her sport of choice. "Decency" has nothing to do with preventing people from taking part in the consenting activities of their choice; in this case the meaning appears to have been appropriated in the cause of a particularly silly form of prudish, collectivist Victorianism.

You're not a Feminist, Strange, you're just an especially insulting and condescending sexist/chauvinist.

silent_jay

Proof? Or did you pull this number out yoiur arse?

Who says their forced to? Women can make their own decisions you know, I would have figured a feminist such as yourself would know this.

As Gucci said this thread is over now that you started pulling numbers out your arse, whatever shred of credibility you had jsut went down the toilet.

---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:36 PM ----------

Bloodsport....... Chong Li, Chong Li, Chong Li, Chong Li, Chong Li

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Strange Famous

MMA is a farce for a number of reasons I have laid out which have not been countered

Lets summarise

1 - It is cowardly to strike a man when he is down. No gentleman would do this in a sporting match

A - The MMA fans that some fighters find that lying flat on their back and being repeated struck is the best position to fight in and advantageous for them.

2 - The fact that an actor is the MMA champion after a three fight and a two fight winning streak makes the sport look ridiculous

A - Lesner apparently was a good wrestler in college

3 - Even the best MMA fighters have many losses on their record, proving the random nature of a contest that is basically a scrambled brawl where the first person to get an arm lock on someone wins.

A - The MMA fans claim that it isnt the case that MMA is TO A DEGREE pot luck but claim it shows the strength of depth of the sport that even a highly ranked fighter like Kimbo Slice can be beaten by a man half his size who was visibly shaking with fear before the fight.

The fact is, I am not that strong or tough a guy, I havent trained a lot.

If I fought a UK level heavyweight boxer I would be beaten 100 times out of 100 - under the Queensbury Rules

If I fought a top 25 MMA heavyweight from UFC I reckon I would have at least a 1/20 chance of beating him. Without anymore than my natural strength (average for my size) and a basic instinctive ability to brawl to an average level, I'd win 5 out of 100 simply because I'd get in a clinch with the guy, and in the pot luck scramble I'd be th one to get the arm lock on (and the guys superior training in wrestling would give him a win 19 times out of 20, sure)

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

silent_jay

They've all been countered, you just choose to ignore FACTS. Unless you come back with some actual FACTS or PROOF of these numbers you pull out your arse, as Gucci said, this thread is done and should just be left to die.

---------- Post added at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ----------

There's a distinct odour of bullshit coming from this post, can anyone else smell it or just me?

Go to a gym then and prove it, or do you not have the sack and would rather talk a tough game over the computer, this is a fuckin joke, seriously a big fuckin joke

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Baraka_Guru

I don't know, SF. I'm pretty sure Gina Carano could beat you 100 out of 100 times, and quite painfully at that.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

It's easy to make these assumptions SF makes when he really doesn't understand the sport or the training involved, I say we all just leave him to his delusions of winning this fight and get on with more important things like when the fuck did women MMA fighters start wearing bikinis? Is this a different channel than I get here in Canada or just a UK thing

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Strange Famous

I wouldnt fight a woman under any circumstances, as you well know - so your comment is really just a silly one

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

It's not silly, because it's probably true regardless of your willingness to participate. I was just making a point. Why would an MMA fighter be any more or less difficult to beat than a boxer, especially to an untrained "contender"? Even a female MMA fighter would just have to give you a kickdown. I'm guessing you wouldn't even be able to close in on them. I know I wouldn't be able to. They're quick and they kick things as a pastime.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

Not silly at all, you think you could beat a heavy, we all know a woman would fuck you up (and most other men) so nope not silly at all, at least not near as silly as your posts in this thread.

---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 PM ----------

SF are you really Tommy Gunn from Rocky 5? The untrained prodigy with loads of skill and no one to train him? Maybe Mighty Mickey's is still open and Meredith Burgess will train you.

Added: Can this thread PLEASE go to the Hall of Fame now? It's definitely worthy for sheer hilarity if nothing else.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Glory's Sun

Let's break them down then.

MMA is a farce for a number of reasons I have laid out which have not been countered

Lets summarise

1 - It is cowardly to strike a man when he is down. No gentleman would do this in a sporting match

OPINION-- NOT FACT

A - The MMA fans that some fighters find that lying flat on their back and being repeated struck is the best position to fight in and advantageous for them. It's called Jiu-Jitsu and trust me they don't want to get hit, they want to submit you.. again no facts here only speculation

2 - The fact that an actor is the MMA champion after a three fight and a two fight winning streak makes the sport look ridiculous Apparently, so ridiculous that no boxing match can top MMA in television views, and while I'm on it again, he is not an actor when it comes to MMA. More speculation

A - Lesner apparently was a good wrestler in college
Fact. Finally, a fact

3 - Even the best MMA fighters have many losses on their record, proving the random nature of a contest that is basically a scrambled brawl where the first person to get an arm lock on someone wins.
False again. Show me these so called win and losses by the best

A - The MMA fans claim that it isnt the case that MMA is TO A DEGREE pot luck but claim it shows the strength of depth of the sport that even a highly ranked fighter like Kimbo Slice can be beaten by a man half his size who was visibly shaking with fear before the fight.
Because we all know that upsets NEVER happen in boxing

The fact is, I am not that strong or tough a guy, I havent trained a lot.
You said it, not me.

If I fought a UK level heavyweight boxer I would be beaten 100 times out of 100 - under the Queensbury Rules
We care why? More nothingness

If I fought a top 25 MMA heavyweight from UFC I reckon I would have at least a 1/20 chance of beating him. Without anymore than my natural strength (average for my size) and a basic instinctive ability to brawl to an average level, I'd win 5 out of 100 simply because I'd get in a clinch with the guy, and in the pot luck scramble I'd be th one to get the arm lock on (and the guys superior training in wrestling would give him a win 19 times out of 20, sure)

You have to know how to actually DO an armbar before you can say this. I'd go one step further and put you against people who aren't even in the UFC yet who have been training for a while up against you. If you did go to the UFC or any other organization you'd be slaughtered. You have no knowledge of Martial Arts, Feminism or anything else in this thread.



This thread is OVER

Chilly McFreeze

Now I know he's either trolling or completely clueless (as if I didn't before). Kimbo Slice highly rated? I'm officially retiring from this discussion.

silent_jay

FACT


Sorry I just wanted in on the action as well

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Strange Famous

Do you believe that Slice fought in PPV's because he is lowly rated?

Did you actally see the fight he lost in 20 seconds after being slapped twice?

If they had put him in the ring with Merciless Ray Mercer under Queensbury Rule I believe he would have suffered an even worse defeat though

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

YaWhateva

I'm going to let everyone else talk about the dumb shit you have been saying but I'll just say that the UFC Light Heavy Weight Champion is undefeated, the number one ranked Heavyweight in the world has 1 loss, the Middleweight Champion has 4 losses, and the Welterweight Champion has two losses. Please stop making a fool of yourself.

Also, I'd love to see you tell Gina Carano or Cyborg that they don't belong in MMA and that you, being the big tough man that you are, are just protecting them from the cruelty of the world. I'll be there laughing as either of them knock you out cold with one punch.

---------- Post added at 03:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:34 PM ----------

They weren't pay per views, ugh. please think before talking. the fights were free to everyone.

__________________
“If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again.” - Bill O'Reilly

"This is my United States of Whateva!"

silent_jay

Yep, EliteXC was trying to capture his internet popularity, it had nothing to do with his skill, hence why EliteXC is now bankrupt. Besides it was on CBS which is hardly PPV, but once again don't bother to look anything up before shooting your yap off.

Yep, did you? You assume it was a slap, but it probably would have dropped you as well.



Psssst he chocked out Mercer in an exhibition match, but don't let that FACT get in the way of your arguments.

Are all of your arguments based on speculation or do you actually have any PROOF of anything you say? Or is it still the throw enough shit at the wall and hope it sticks style of debating? If it is the throwing shit style it's fine with me, makes it easy on the rest of us to prove you wrong, which happens every time you post.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Jetée

I had a whole long post to submit about 25 min. ago, but I accidentally hit "ctrl+w", and it totally cleared the thoughts I had put to type for the past 20+ min., and I'm abit distraught about that occurrence.

So, I'll just post what is most pertinent now, and the last vestige that I can currently remember of my forgotten post...

Strange Famous: You have a very noble, chivalrous to a fault, and yes, narrow-minded logic to how women are meant to be perceived in the athletic arena, and you also hold an unconvincingly-provincial stance on how a man is supposed to fight. Sure, there are clear rules about how to do so in boxing, and whereas those restrictions are much more lax within the realm of MMA, there are definite and stop-gap measures in place to ensure that this brutal contest can be as safe and fair as possible. This is not only in order to ensure the longevity of the subset of athletes that have voluntarily sought to persue the pinnacles of what MMA has to offer, but to also legitimatize in the eyes of the media that this sport is legit, & indeed can minimalize the happenstances of foul play and forced luck. This sport is as serious any other you can name, perhaps moreso than boxing, baseball, basketball, etc., in which there have been numerous revelations of cheating scandals; and the idea that you still have to reach into the reservoir of your long-held notions & recollections of what was golden-age of boxing's popularity to still assist your arguments, it really unveils what your true motives are to continuing the debate. You are not ready to let go--boxing is on the decline, MMA is suddenly on the rise, and you feel the need to herald a sport that has not been as culturally-relevant in the past two decades as mixed-martial arts has proved to be, just to protect/promote something that was once your favorite venue of entertainment. Unless you can judge MMA on its own merits, and quit comparing it to the old days of boxing, and "wrestling actors", this congregation of contending approaches and counterpoints will loop incessantly and without end.

Mixed-martial arts did not sprout forth from boxing and/or primetime wrestling; it arose primarly from the Greco-Roman style of catch wrestling, and more relevantly, the UFC exhibition evolved from the vale tudo events promoted by a certain Mestre duo, the Gracie brothers, and a similar occurrence which was happening in Japan that arranged the first formation of a tangible mma organization, called the 'Shuto' (sp?), both of which came into existence in-between the early 1920s up 'til the mid-1980s. MMA has no need, or honorific duty, to follow the formula in which you seem to attribute to boxing, a delusioned notion of 'a chivalrous bout among men to ascertain which is the best iron-fisted gentleman'. That is not how or why boxing was formed, it was rarely depicted in that fashion even in decades past, and it is as much a good, visceral and vicarious spectator sport as is now the UFC, Elite-XC, and the ilk--but the thrill is now being shared by the majority of the population, whereas you, now in the minority of those that still enjoy the spectacle of gloved fisticuffs, seek to disparage the image of what it has become just to save the face of a dwindling sport, your precious and glinted vision of what boxing is/was.


Don't knock the future just to recount the past--you end up getting left there yourself.

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

silent_jay

I wish I had your memory Jetée, I would have been lucky to remember the first line. Oh yes, nice post as well, I wish I could get my points across that well.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

FuglyStick

Yeah, um, those MMA chicks are tough as nails, and you better believe I'm gonna fight back (probably to no avail) if one is looking to take my head off. There's chivalry, and then there's stupidity.

And those chicks would stomp yer nads into ball jelly if they heard you insinuate that they are "delicate" and "frail." Hell, I bet most of them have to train with men.

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

Baraka_Guru

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

That woman kicks like a fuckin mule, christ that would sting.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Baraka_Guru

And she's lightweight.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Glory's Sun

Women do train with the men.. even if it's just for exercise and the woman doesn't want to pursue a career in MMA..

why? because let's be honest.. who are they going to need it on more? women or men? They get used to wrestling and fighting with men and often times they can "handle" their own if they are attacked by a man.

but you know, they are the fairer sex, they shouldn't be allowed to do such things

---------- Post added at 10:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 PM ----------

oh ..and just because


12-1-1 Muay Thai record and 6-0 MMA

although I think Cyborg may just have her number.

funny though.. I don't see any bikinis.. and Gina would be NICE in a bikini.

The_Dunedan

Indeed. Dear GOD let me be lucky enough to find such a woman in my bed!

FuglyStick

Jaysus, he got jacked

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

silent_jay

Yes, yes she would be nice.

She must have been forced to fight though, I'm positive I saw a gun to her head forcing her to fight

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

FuglyStick

Chainmail bikini

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

Baraka_Guru

+1

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

that would be sweeeeeeeeeet

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Plan9

Knock that shit off!

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

silent_jay

knock her top off, I'm assuming?

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Reese

Sorry, SF, but you are absolutely a sexist. You put women on a pedestal and treat them like breakable objects that must be protected. You just think you're a feminist because you don't put women down but instead almost worship them as gods which is just as bad.

No woman is being forced to fight in MMA or boxing. There are female boxers if you didn't know. They struggle to even make a name for themselves in the sport. Hell, No professional sport has been receptive to females, even when they have the skill and strength to compete with the men. To say they're forced to compete is ridiculous. The powers that be would rather have them gone.

Also, You still don't understand a man on the ground is NOT a defenseless man. Royce Gracie could have started a fight laying on his back and still win. If a man is ever defenseless in MMA, The ref will step in and the fight is over.

Heavyweights are not champion of champions. Heavyweights, in my opinion are kind of boring. I personally feel the Middleweights and Light heavyweights make the sport exciting. The first few UFCs didn't have weight classes and Royce Gracie, a smaller fellow beat a few people out of his weightclass.

Finally, About Brock Lesner. As much as I dislike his attitude and feel that his actions after his win again Frank Mir was very unsportsmanlike, you cannot deny his ability to fight. He is EXTREMELY agile for his size. He was a champion (amateur) wrestler and to fight in MMA he had to train 2 years before his first MMA fight. He was already in shape, he was already a champion of another martial art and he still needed 2 years. Guess what 2 years of training got him. A loss against Frank Mir - A man laying on the ground.

__________________
“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

Strange Famous

When boxing first started it had a lot of elements that MMA does now (bear knuckle, even fencing)...but boxing has become refined over the years to be the ultimte test of manliness.

MMA is a flash in the pan, a retrograde step, going backwards to an uglier and less exciting contest. They package it like WWF, and they have some fans in a certain area (male, young, middle class)

Boxing is an honest sport for working men. The middle class fans of MMA will soon move on to something else once this thing is no longer trendy.

When no one remembers who Brock Lesner or Randy Coutre is - John L Sullivan will stand out, a name ringing true across the ages, as a mighty heavyweight champion, the pinnacle of manliness.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Charlatan

I don't understand why you can just live with both sports.

There are many sports out there and we don't have to tear one down to build up another.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

highthief

How strange that you pick Sullivan, a fighter from the bare knuckle era - which you say in your first sentence is unrefined and similar to MMA.

Wasn't he a drunk who was afraid to fight black men?

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Baraka_Guru

I don't know...I think MMA has exploded in popularity simply because boxing isn't manly enough.

There was a void to be filled, so there we have it.

There simply isn't enough flexibility, risk-taking, and pure feats of abilities and toughness in boxing compared to MMA.

Boxing has a limited arsenal. You can resort to a small set of techniques to hide deficiencies in other areas of manliness.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot