Plan9

How did you develop such a weird sense of kill drama, Zeraph?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Strange Famous

The fact that young kids can get black belts - not just the likes of Graycie, but teenage kids all over the shop - really shows how easy it is. You turn up, learn a few Japanese words, practise a few kicks, and they call you a black belt.

Then the first time you get into a real fight, puffed up with unfounded confidence, you find you get sparked.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Plan9

Not all martial arts schools are like that. It's easy to say they're all black belt factories, but where do quality fighters come from?

Something tells me they're not hatched. Turns out they come from good martial arts schools that focus on real world slam-bang.

The school I attend takes training very seriously. Belts are a part of the artsy tradition, not a way to rank ability.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

m0rpheus

Well atleast this is half true unlike most of your posts here.
Sounds like you are talking about what's known as a Mcdojo.

McDojo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When we say black belt, it is a black belt from a reputable dojo, master or school.
While I can't say for sure that no Mixed Martial Artist has ever set foot in a McDojo because lets face it some of them may have gone as children, I will say this. If any current Mixed Martial Artist recieved his black belt from a McDojo he'd be laughed out of the sport.

It's the difference between going down to the local YMCA and getting someone to show you how to throw a jab and hit a bag, and finding a real trainer who will show you how to box.

In other words not all black belts are created equal. When we state fighter X has a black belt in Y, it's not a black belt from the local "master" that was handed out alongside 40 others to the rest of the class because their cheque cleared.
A black belt from these places would be like me going taking a few boxing classes for a year or so, then having them hand me a belt that declares me to be world champion. Sure I've got the belt that says it but does it make it true? Of course not.

__________________
"it never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson

YaWhateva

I'd love to see you earn a black belt in Machida Karate. Oh wait, you never could.

__________________
“If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again.” - Bill O'Reilly

"This is my United States of Whateva!"

Glory's Sun

boxing must be pretty damn easy too considering all the fake knockouts it's had over it's history. corruption really lends a helping hand to a sports cause now doesn't it?

silent_jay

You really are clueless about this topic aren't you? Go earn a black belt SF, but like YaWhateva said, you can't. So you'd rather sit in front of your computer and let ignorance reign supreme.

You're speaking of a McDojo as m0rpheus said, but don't let the fact that not all dojo's are like that get in the way of your delusional view of kids as black belts.

As I said before, I have a friend and his sister who both earned their black belts as teens and I don't doubt either one could kick your head off your shoulders no problem.

It's like debating with a child, pick a point, have said point beaten, so he grasps another straw and hopes it works. Like I said before, it's the throwing shit at a wall debating style, he's juts hoping some shit sticks, other than to his posts.
I bet they do better than the guy who lets the person he's fighting against get back up after he puts him down.



---------- Post added at 08:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 AM ----------

Come on guccilvr you know SF doesn't pay attention to facts about boxing, he picks and chooses. Hell this is supposed to be about MMA as a sport, now that he's got his ass handed to him numerous times on that one it's now about kids as black belts I guess....throw shit at the wall SF, maybe it'll stick.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Baraka_Guru

Okay, back on track?

The UNESCO Committee defines a sport as follows:

Any physical activity which has the character of play and which involves a struggle with oneself or with others, or a confrontation with natural elements. If this activity involves competition, it must then always be performed in a spirit of sportsmanship. There can be no true sports without the idea of fair play.

Is MMA a sport?
Is boxing?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

Based on that definition then yes it is a sport.

Although I already know SF's next argument. 'There's no sportmanship in MMA because of striking a downed opponent.' Wait for it, you'll see.

PS: Thanks for getting this back on track Baraka, the whole kids as black belts thing was so far off track I was lost as to what this thread was supposed to be about.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Baraka_Guru

But surely he knows it's not a free-for-all when the opponent is down. (Sorry, I didn't follow the previous debate very closely.)

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

He honestly seems to think it is, hell he even mentioned kicking an opponent while he was down. Yes PRIDE did allow this and they also allowed knees to the head of a downed opponent, but that was also in Japan and when PRIDE had their American shows these rules were changed to follow the rules of the particular state they were in so the fights can be sanctioned.

Honestly in my opinion SF doesn't know enough about the rules or about the sport in general, he didn't even know how many rounds were in a title fight, he was talking about Lesnar tiring out in the 8th round, so to me that shows an ignorance and a lack of knowledge about a sport, and means someone needs to read a bit more and shoot their mouth off a bit less to get some knowledge about it.

It'd be like me arguing brain surgery with a brain surgeon something I am completely ignorant and clueless about.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Glory's Sun

It's just a pointless argument. Anyone can rip apart any sport and say it's not fit to be a sport. Clearly this is the point of this entire OP, as the starter cannot fathom how mixed martial arts in any form is noble. I mean.. the fact that the arts involved teach you to take an opponent down and make the aggressor submit while on the ground has nothing to do with it. Obviously, the people who study the art forms and become good at them, are clearly just thugs and have no nobility in them... we can ignore the fact that 99% of the time these same people get up, shake hands and commend the other person for a well rounded fight. We can also ignore the safety issues.. there are very few major injuries in MMA. Oh wait, there's few injuries of a deadly nature because MMA is just EASY and anyone can do it.

silent_jay

Couldn't agree more

I see SF using this next with Lesnar's name in it for the way he acted like an asshat after beating Mir, little does he know that happening is such a minority it useless as an argument at all, but we'll see.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Daniel_

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Glory's Sun

someone posted that in the other thread I think Daniel_

still funny though

Zeraph

What do you mean?

I go by my ~10 years of academic, philosophical, and physical experience, and by definitions but mostly what I've been taught by real practitioners of the art.

Since when does martial not mean warlike? When did it become "family sport and fun exercise"? Just because mainstream American pop culture has turned it mostly into a business jazzercise class that kids go to after school does not make it so for the thousands of years the real thing has existed. Or for the real artists quietly living it.

Plan9

Zeraph, you're killing me here. See? Look at me... look at me dying. My god... I can barely take it.

...

You talk about martial arts like there is an occupation where sinewy furrowed-brow men sit in gray stone pagodas and train to kill other men with their bare hands, taking breaks only to sleep for 3 hours a night, eating only the hearts of timber wolves and grizzly bears. Aside from the infamous "red roof inn" at Fort Bragg, no such place exists. I think your martial arts education has come from Hollywood, chief.

...

10 years of what experience? If you were any more vague, I'd be tempted to suggest Mortal Kombat.

I've trained in American Freestyle Karate for over a year and a half straight... going up to 20 hours per work week (2-4 hours a day)... and that shit isn't Jazzercise. People ended up in the hospital when mistakes were made. I've had duct tape holding my busted toes together, smashed noses, a broken finger, blood on my t-shirt. I've choked people out, knocked people out with punches, kicked people in the head, and I got dropped like a sack of potatoes by a tough old man with a leg like a train car and one of my best friends hookkicked me in the back of the head and I almost did a cartoon faceplant. It's a glorious experience... and after everybody is soaked with sweat and bandaged up... we all limp out to the bar like some rowdy Vikings and drink our fill. There is no "trained killer" mindset here. We're human beings engaging in martial arts... hence martial artists.

There are amazing schools out there with dedicated instructors that will teach you how to fight, how to strengthen your body, and the kind of friendship that only develops after kicking someone in the ribs. Many of them offer free lessons to see how you feel about it... and you can watch for free.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Strange Famous

Scientifially the strongest way to strike from a human body is a punch.

Most people who learn flying ninja kickstyle martial arts just want to look flashy.

They have a class at the same sports centre I play badminton in, and sometimes I watch them spar from the balcony while Im waiting for my game - Ive never once seen one person in the class who looks like they can fight some of them have black belts. For a couple of quid I'd go downstairs an whip any of of them and then run a mile afterwards.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Plan9

I can kick a lot harder than I can punch... and I assure you a X-degree blackbelt would tell you the same. It's all about muscles.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Strange Famous

How many "X Factor Blackbelts" have proved themself in a real test - rather than just intimidating nervous students of their "Dojo" with bullshit stories about one inch punches, etc.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

So why don't people punch doors in instead of kicking them in?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

Funny story:

Some tough guy biker dudes were walking by the school I attend a few years ago. They decided that the pussies in the baggy blue pajamas needed to be bullied before they continued onto their girly magazines and sixpacks. They walked into the school and challenged the instructor to a fight. The instructor said that was ludicrous but eventually agreed to it in order to teach them a lesson. Instead of fighting them himself as a 7th degree, he had one of his star students, a short stocky guy named Morris, fight the tough guy... the tough guy challenger was a foot taller and probably 50 pounds heavier than him. They went at it. Morris circled for a few seconds, drilled the guy in the ribs with a sidekick and floored him with a hookkick to the side of the head. Two hits, TKO. Tough guy's friend carried him out. Nobody said anything.

Studying a martial art doesn't mean you can fight, and being able to fight doesn't mean you've studied a martial art.

As an intermediate belt "rank," I've beaten down plenty of black belts... and been schooled by plenty of intermediate belts. The belt means little when you talk about fighting ability, it's just part of the uniform and tradition... just as being a Sergeant in the US Army doesn't mean you're any more or less capable than a Specialist or Staff Sergeant.

Mixed martial arts are even more flaky when it comes to grading people. It suddenly becomes all about the individual training program and strengths/weaknesses related to it... exactly like boxers.

...

Basically, it's all about conditioning, focus and becoming proficient with technique systems.

MMA is a sport because it has fans and people judge it. If ultimate frisbee is a sport, so is MMA.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

YaWhateva

God I'd love to see this.

__________________
“If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again.” - Bill O'Reilly

"This is my United States of Whateva!"

Strange Famous

Ive had to break down a couple of doors in my life.

Once I punched through the glass (with my hand wrapped in a jumper) and once I shouldered through it.

---------- Post added at 10:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 PM ----------


Well proves my point.

The 7th grade black belt karate master didnt have the stomach and tried to back out.

Eventually one of the guys who could fight stood up in his place and floored the other guy.

Sure, it happens that some people who do martial arts can fight but I doubt there is much of a causal link.

Fighting ability is about aggression, phyiscal strength and co-ordination, and a basic technique. The best technique for fighting in most sitations is boxing. Two people equal in every other way but one a boxer and one a jinjitsu black belt... if they get in a fight the jinjitsu guy tries to kick the others guys head off with 360 John Claude Van Damme special, misses by two feet and then gets sparked with a simple straight right.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

this thread is getting stupider by the second.

why is karate the only thing being talked about in regards to MMA when there are a ton of different styles?

and SF. seriously, you need to just shut that macho shit up before you find yourself on the ground one day getting your teeth kicked in by a martial artist. just because there are plenty who can't do it right doesn't mean they all can't.. and I'd pay thousands of dollars to watch you say that shit to Machida.

---------- Post added at 05:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ----------

jinjitsu..

wow.

umm..

..

..


..


....

I need a drink.

Zeraph

Whats with the personal stuff cromp?

No I don't. I speak the truth and you perceive it wrongly because there are so many fools around.

Why does it matter which school I've trained? All paths lead to one.

FYI I hold one rank or another in danzan ryu jujitsu, taekwondo, karate, tai chi, taijutsu (really an american hybrid school), and an equivalent of kendo. I've been training off and on (because of my health) since I was 8 years old. Of the thousands of hours I've physically trained learning the techniques I've spent an equal amount of time over my life in reading and studying the science and philosophy behind it. I've had my fair share of the sports versions and the McDojos as well. I know the difference between martial prowess and athleticism. I have permanently damaged my big toe and my knee in my stupider days. I've sparred *a lot.*

I am not glorifying death or violence. That is in fact what most of MA schools do now a days. I am the opposite of such. I seek enlightenment. I avoid physical violence and use words whenever possible. I find it quite amusing that you call me Hollywood when you go and tell that biker story glorifying hollywood machoism. Their behavior sounds shameful as they entertained the silly notions of the bikers. They lost their honor as soon as the agreed to the terms of an honorless crowd of hooligans.

Plan9

Gucci,

Hey, I just brought up karate because that's what I know. I know a few other guys on TFP train in other disciplines. Nobody is talking, though. Probably because they work for a living and aren't on TFP right now.

Zeraph,

I think I'm going to do the "honorable" thing and discontinue this conversation. We shall disagree and that's fine. Unless we find ourselves in the same room and having sparring gear available... and then it might be even better.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Strange Famous

Who is "Machida"?

I am not claiming I could bet any person who happens to have studied a martial art... I am saying that most of the "Eastern" martial arts are of limited help in a real fight and wont make anyone any better

Look at UFC... how often do you see people being floored by a flying kick? Nearly every fight ends up someone being tripped or thrown and then beaten while they are defenseless on the floor, or else an arm lock or leg lock after the two fighters tumble to the ground in a clinch.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Plan9

There are many better examples of martial arts competition aside from the hot new pop culture instance of UFC.

Have you checked out Chuck Norris' "World Combat League" on the TeeVee? Those guys are much less brutish.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

silent_jay

Put cme in the love to see this category as well. Most likely the funniest thing I'd see in my 32 years.
People like SF are internet tough guys, or telephone tough guys, they'll act tough as long as no one is there in person, put an actual person in front of them and he'd either cry like a baby, beg to be left alone, or find the nearest woman wearing a skirt and hide behind it.
If your ignorant and narrow minded like someone in this thread, it does, ignorance is bliss.

Seriously? Clueless much? I vote yes. Unless ytou meant this jinjitsu:
Jinjitsu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fuck dude you must really dig making yourself look foolish, but we still love ya SF, you're just not good at this learning before you post thing.

---------- Post added at 03:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16 PM ----------

They aren't defenseless just because they're on the mat, if you had a clue you'd know this.

---------- Post added at 03:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 PM ----------

It's that train wreck factor, you know it's stupid, but you can't help reading it to see if it could possibly get more stupid, and not surprisingly it always does.

---------- Post added at 03:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:21 PM ----------

Also why would a Jiu-Jitsu (correct term there SF) be trying to kick someones head off their shoulders? Not know too much about Jiu-Jitsu now do we SF? Again with that learning before you post thing.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Strange Famous

I may be lots of things, but I dont consider myself to be a physical coward. Just like being an internet tough guy, such accusations are easy to make and dont mean much. I havent talked about my ability to fight any person on this board - just a bunch of clueless martial arts who train at my local sport centre.

I am now only going to talk about known facts or things that we have enough evidence to judge as fact.

The fact that Brock Lesner is the champion of UFC means it is not a serious sport.

Now, UFC want this guy, because a lot of their fanbase are WWF/WWE fans - someone posted PPV fights showing that Lesner promotions were the only ones that UFC could sell.

They wanted this guy in as champ. They know he cant stay there because someone with credibility will have to fight him and make a fool of him sooner or later, but they ant to milk it as much as they can.

After being beaten by a fringe contender they gave the title to a 46 year old light heavy so that Lesner could beat him and take it.

Lesner stomps about, making the same silly promo's he did in WWE

Lesner is, in my opinion, someone who has built his bulk up by juicing (he may be clean now, but the best explanation of the gap between his supposedly great college career and playing pro sport was to get the steroids out of his system in my opinion)

Quite frankly, after winning 3 fights, the fact that a WWF world champion is now the champion of MMA really says everything.

I think some of the zealous fans would still not suspect a thing is Fedor "pulls out" and The Undertaker takes on Lesner for the title and buries him.

Yes - there is corruption in boxing, yes there are fair fights in MMA - but seriosly, come on, the Champion of UFC (and the Heavyweight Champion IS the greatest champion in any combat sport) is an actor! Who was handed the title after beaten (1) a nobody (2) a fringe contender who had already beaten him (3) a middle aged man who's natural weight is 178 lbs.

How can you take this seriously?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Chilly McFreeze

There you go with the heavyweight champ being the top guy in the sport thing again, surely you know this isn't true. I'm gonna repost my comment from the MMA Predictions thread, because it was quite rightly pointed out that I should bring it over here.

Strange Famous

The heavyweight champion isnt always the best lbs for lbs fighter - sure.

But come on, we all know the Heavyweight champion is "the champ", the pinnacle of the sport, the king of manliness.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

silent_jay

People you perceive as clueless but who most likely could kick your ass, no matter what you think of them.

If these are like your other 'facts' this should be good for a chuckle.
He's not the champion of UFC, he's the heavyweight champion, and a dam naccomplished NCAA wrestler, but you ignore that FACT.
Proof that 'a lot of' their fanbase are WWE fans? (if it's a fact you can back it up right?)

Proof? Or just more of your throw shit at a wall style of debating?
You seriously are this clueless aren't you?

Wow he was pissed after one fight and you seem to think he makes these 'promos' that no one else see but you.

Playing what pro sport? THE GUY WAS NEVER A FOOTBALL PLAYER IN COLLEGE OR UNI, is it seriously that hard for you to get? Shall I draw you a picture? May be easier for you to wrap your head around pictures rather than words.

What fuckin champion of MMA? There is no one champion, seriously learn something so you can stop looking so bloody foolish. that's like saying there's one champion in boxing, and yeah Tyson being a champ was great for boxing.

Now this is just fuckin stupid

There is no Champion of UFC, fuck me it's like dealing with as child
Opinion not fact.
Fixed that last one for you, and no I don't think anyone here takes you seriously, you've effectively turned yourself into a joke with this debate...good show.

Also for all these facts you were supposed to talk about, not one was a fact, most were bullshit.

---------- Post added at 03:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 PM ----------

There's that delusion view of manliness again, and that's your OPINION not a fact SF, and opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Chilly McFreeze

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you there. What the Klitchko's are the kings of manliness because they happen to be 6'8 tall? Manny Paquiao could never fight in the heavyweight division, no matter how much he bulked up, because he's too short - does that make him less manly? Does that make him worse at his sport?

I think most fans would agree with me - guys like Paquiao, Mayweather and De La Hoya are bigger draws than the Klitschkos could ever hope to be, and why? - because they're better, ie they're the top guys in their sport (or have been, at various times).

Strange Famous

Pacman and PBF may well be better fighters, but they are not the heavyweight king.

The Heavyweight champion is the champion of every sport.

Pacman can never be the king, because of his height and build. He's a great boxer and a great guy... but the heavyweight title is something special. I think most people feel this in their heart.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Chilly McFreeze

Ok, well you enjoy watching two lumps smack seven bells out of each other, and I'll continue to watch the talented guys go at it. And that goes for MMA as well as boxing.

I'm not sure what to make of this - you've just pretty much admitted the top heavyweights in boxing are not the best at the sport, yet one of your main issues with MMA is that (one of) the heavyweight champ(s) is....... not the best at the sport?

Glory's Sun

I was unaware that heavyweight meant best champion of any sport.. who are the heavy weight footballers?

Strange Famous

Football is a team sport.

All combat sports are ultimately tests of manliness. The biggest man, the strong man, at the end of the day is the Emporer of Masculinity.

Quite literally the Heavyweight Champion of the World is in some senses the greatest man in the world.

MMA wants to compare itself to boxing - and their king is a WWF actor, a suspected steroid abuser, and a man who has won 3 fight in UFC.

If the guy didnt have a background in WWF, do you think he'd be fighting for the greatest crown in the sport after 3 fights (and 1 of those being an easy defeat to a fringe contender)

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

highthief

The fact that Norwich were once in the top flight of English football proves football is not a serious sport.

I mean, look how crap they are.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.