Delirious

Anyone else think it's suspicious that there were no Red Sox on the list?

Ilow

And by no Red Sox on the list, I am guessing you mean, "no one of the prominence of Roger Clemens, Andy Pettite, Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield etc?" The answer, of course is that there are numerous former Sox players, and some who have some chance of re-signing with th team, both big names and not (Mo Vaughn is one prominent one, who may have only begun to use following his injuries, after the Red Sox). There are many New York players implicated because one of the most significant sources for the investigation was a Mets clubhouse attendant, who was also somehow linked to the Yankees strength coach. The fact that Mitchell is a native New Englander and has an affiliation with the Red Sox does not mean that he was doing their bidding, and to insinuate that is kind of bush. He has a long history of public service including being a judge and a senator. I will hear your complaint if there are no other teams who have only former, not current players named, otherwise you sound like a shrill new yorker. sorry if this sounds harsh.

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QuasiMondo

So, will there be demands by the 'purists' in baseball for Clemens' last three Cy Young awards to be asterisked?

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Hanxter

red sox??? eric gagME was named...

every single team was named... but you have to remember that many players change teams like underwear...

but, what has to wonder, what is the effect that we the fans now have toward the game in itself... do we look the other way... pay the salaries for "back door" gamesmanship... hold these idols to a higher standard... pass on the values to our children that these heroes are in fact cheaters... you gonna buy baseball cards anymore... gonna go to an autograph show... ???

these are all questions we must look at as individuals and the answers are simple... "what's it worth?"

knowing this was gonna hit the very core of our lives as baseball fans, i, too, will be forever second guessing the next great icon in sports

to listen to selig state that "baseball has the strictest testing in all of sports" is pure bullshit - the ioc does... regardless, selig should just go away, lick his nuts, admit he's not the comissioner he thinks he is... and brush himself under the rug with the rest of them... watching him back pedal made me want to puke... he's a hypocrite



it's all about the money... nothing more... nothing less

maleficent

Roger Clemens just makes me sad... I've never been a huge fan of his -but his off season conditioning - at least what I'd read of it - was pretty damn impressive and I thought that was the reason why he was playing the game long after most players his age hit the golf course....

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highthief

Ha, ha!

Bud Selig is funny ...

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Glory's Sun

Ok here's my take on this report. It's bullshit. Seriously. Who gives a fuck what 2 people that were part of two New York clubhouses said.. when the only reason they started dropping dimes on people was to try and get a lesser sentence.

Mitchell held no power whatsoever in this "investigation". While I'm not saying that some of these people used or distributed, it's not like baseball has been clean and this is something new. I would be alot more comfortable with this kind of report if there was actuall corraborating (sp?) evidence to support the name list. Also, how the hell did Mcquire and Sosa not make the list?

I'm too the point now that I don't really give a fuck if a player uses HGH. It's their body, their career and their decision. The only thing that stops me from not caring at all is the records and wondering if our beloved stars from the past were really clean or not.

Either way, this is far from over. Expect the players union to come out firing with all available ammo. This is when it will get really nasty.

kutulu

I agree to some extent. I haven't read it but a few people I know have read through most of it and I trust their judgment.

There are two ways to look at the report. If you only look at the final product then yes, it is crap. Very few sources, little evidence, etc. It names some names, including some rather big names but there isn't a lot of substance.

Alternatively, you can look at the buzz it created. Some really big names were in there. That generates a lot of awareness. Also, as a result of the report, MLB will likely have better testing and they can get on with cleaning up the game.

Glory's Sun

I can only imagine how big Barry Bond's was smiling when the report came out.

Halx

There are a few details from the report that stood out to me. First of all, the inclusion of actual checks that players wrote out to the dealers should be damning. MLB plans on taking actions against players whose checks appear in the report. Also, the few people who did come forth and admit (aside from the dealer and trainer) had stories that matched.

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Glory's Sun

Who came forward? As far as I know the only person who talked was Giambi and that's because he had to.

A check doesn't mean shit.. unless the check was actually written out to the place that supplied the HGH or PEDs. One player who wasn't named of course, was in the report and they showed him a check. He simply said the check could have been for anything.. pizza for the clubhouse, laundry.. anything. So you can bet your ass that a check isn't going to stop the House of Lawyers (Players Union) from keeping their guys out of suspension. Add that to the fact that this report holds no prosecutal weight whatsoever.. and it's just a bunch of hearsay for now. I doubt we see more than 5 people suspended over this. If that many.

Strange Famous

the whole thing seems to me to be more about mud slinging than drawing a line under things.

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djtestudo

It's nowhere near as simple as people are trying to make it.

I think the report shows a lot of things. Some of which seem obvious, but couldn't be shown as accurate.

1) Performance-enhancing drugs alone aren't enough to make you good.

Just look at the names in the report. There are a couple big names that (predictably) the media is focusing on, but there are a lot of names of guys that weren't all that good anyway. In general, it gave enough of a boost to allow players to keep their skills at a level just high enough to keep their jobs. Or in other cases, to go from best-in-a-generation status to possibly-best-ever status.

One of them, F.P. Santangelo, already confirmed that he took something because he was scared that his career would be over otherwise.

2) That everyone is culpable.

There have already been front-office people that have come out and said that they knew something was wrong. It is just about guaranteed Bud Selig knew something enough where he could have started investigating a LONG time ago.

3) The players deserve no sympathy.

They knew they were doing the wrong things, and they were unwilling to do anything to stop it. Only a couple were even willing to talk.

I get really sick and tired of "stop snitching" attitudes within groups. The baseball union should get as much scorn and criticism as they deserve, which is an awful lot. The innocent are willing to protect the guilty, which makes everyone guilty.

I think it will be very interesting to see what happens with some of the vehement denials. Rafael Palmeiro, when he was denying his positive test, practically swore that he would prove his innocence shortly. That was two years ago.

I think that the evidence against Clemens, at least, is enough to prove his guilt and unless he can show otherwise he should not be allowed to have a further career in baseball, both playing and coaching, and the Hall of Fame.

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Ustwo

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MontanaXVI

I took the report with a grain of salt when it first hit as you knew that guys would say it was all a lie or none of it was true.

Until today when Pettite comes out and says it was true, he did take HGH in '02 while it was not banned in MLB to help him recover from arm issues. Someone manning up like that and saying "Yes I did screw up" makes you really sit back and look at the report as being credible and well investigated, even if the majority of it came from just a couple of sources.

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Ilow

I'm pretty sure that "If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize," does not really count as "manning up." especially since he was admitting to something that was not illegal at the time.

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perripken

I think the report is crap! I was quite surprised to see my favorite current player Brian Roberts on the report, but then when I read the report, it looked like he was guilty by association. He happened to live with Larry Bigbie and David Segui, who were also named in the report. I have copied the report on Brian Roberts and you can be the judge. To me, it's just heresay:
Brian Roberts
Brian Roberts is an infielder who has played for the Baltimore Orioles since 2001.
He has been selected to two All-Star teams.
Roberts and Larry Bigbie were both rookies in 2001. According to Bigbie, both
he and Roberts lived in Segui’s house in the Baltimore area during the latter part of that season.
When Bigbie and Segui used steroids in the house, Roberts did not participate.
According to Bigbie, however, in 2004 Roberts admitted to him that he had
injected himself once or twice with steroids in 2003. Until this admission, Bigbie had never
suspected Roberts of using steroids.
In order to provide Roberts with information about these allegations and to give
him an opportunity to respond, I asked him to meet with me; he declined.

There are others in the report that are implicated in the same way... just heresay. Until there is solid proof and Pud Selig and major league baseball, and all sports take a stand against it, I don't want to hear about it.
The worst part is that now high school athletes are using performance enhancing drugs because of their role models.
Unfortunately, it's all about money!

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thebeat

I don't particular care about the report, as the previous poster said, I take it will a grain of salt, there were some obvious people listed.

By my feeling is that, regardless of whether or not some of these players took HGH, I don't really feel it gave them a dominate edge over others.

I don't think big bats like; Bonds and others who have been pointed out, have hit more home runs because of it. Farther? Maybe. But even so what are the chances that but maybe a couple of shots were homers instead of warning track catches?

I'm not a bonds supporter, but he couldn't have done what he's done without a talent to play the game.

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random

MontanaXVI

I look at it as manning up since he could have went the route of the majority of the players named and said I never did anything, or pull a Bonds or Palmerio and just say that he did not know what he was taking.

I guess if someone is willing to stand up and say that yes they did it rather than just saying no or taking the cop out (McGwire) and just locking up or shutting down when asked, it just carries a little more cred in my eyes. I am not saying what he did was right or wrong, that is up to those who decide what substances are, or are not illegal to decide.

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Hanxter

ya know, my whole take on this is i'm not surprised... this is nothing new to anyone, not you, not me, not the media, and certainly not selig's office... this is old news...

this is selig's office covering their ass, spending what they say is $20M for the good of the game... excuse me??? are we to be that naive in thinking that any team would not sign someone who was juiced for the better of the team and not know it???

if you believe that you're as dumb as selig...

this is old shit and nothing more than a bedspread to keep everyone all warm and fuzzy while trying to nurse the fan's almighty dollar to say the game is better now...

makes me wanna puke...

i'm Hanxter and i approve this message

Ilow

I guess I should give him some credit for admitting something when everyone else does not, but the way he phrased his sort-of apology really struck me as annoying, and the stuff he admitted to really makes it look like he's trying to give something meaningless so that he looks all honest and no one digs any deeper, where the real shit is buried. I know it is my $.02, but that's just the way it smacks me.

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MontanaXVI

I totally agree and see your point on it, and think that his apology was just a way to save face, but you have to admit it was more than anyone else has done.

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Ilow

well it is more than most, but Jason Giambi actually looks the best as far as sacking up and admitting stuff. Pettite would never go so far as to implicate his buddy Clemens or anyone else. I almost get the feeling that Pettite wants to do the right thing, but is afraid of the repercussions.

hey, I wasn't the only one thinking this...
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...7&sportCat=mlb

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"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

zerosk8

Basically what it boils down to is that it's time to accept that we live in an age of "cheaters". By this I mean, that it's against the rules to use steroids, but they are so common place anymore that it seems that rule is just brushed to the side. It doesn't matter who the person is, how many records they've broken, or how ardently they will argue that they've never used or seen anyone use anabolic steroids. This argument may seem a little judgmental, but lets face it, I'm 19 and have had a passion not only for baseball, but for sports my entire life. I am my own person and am entitled to my own beliefs, but I just think that steroids being a part of sports is something that we're going to have to accept.

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QuasiMondo

Lidocaine and B12 injections. That's Roger's story and he's sticking to it.

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Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

djtestudo

It was Rafael Palmeiro's and Miguel Tejada's stories too.

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n0nsensical

He couldn't have done it without talent but there is NO FUCKING WAY he would have had the midcareer resurgence he had either, forget the records. Its quite obvious that was due to the roids, no coincidence it started at the same time as BALCO. At such a high level of competition even the slightest bump of hormone levels can make a big difference. Bonds went from an above-average athlete to this huge pitchers' nightmare in body armor slamming home runs every other at bat that he wasn't intentionally walked. That just doesn't randomly happen past age 30.

Yes, steroids are part of sports as long as there is a direct correlation between hormone levels and success. Personally, I want to see steroids made legal. Then cheating is impossible and the sports get a lot more exciting too. Like the NYT pointed out, its probably no coincidence that baseball attendance rose in correlation with # of home runs. What's the difference if you have more testosterone because your body makes it or because you do? It's hardly unfair to anyone when there's a level playing field. Better living through chemistry, welcome to the new world of sports. (Okay, maybe I'm not 100% serious)

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