silent_jay

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Strange Famous

George st Pierre was a nightclub bouncer

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

silent_jay

.......................

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Not Right Now

He was, but not at age 14 when he started learning martial arts.

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I only came to dance.

Strange Famous

yeah, he went to a karate class after school - like lots of kids do.

its no different to playing everquest.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

silent_jay

Wow you found one MMA fighter out of how many? That's like me finding one boxer who sucks cock and saying all boxers sucks cock.
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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Not Right Now

then he learned to wrestle in High school. Then he began learning ju jitsu. Then he began learning how to box. Then he took a job as a bouncer. His being a bouncer is irrelevant. I have a friend who is a bouncer now who's been doing Ju jitsu since he was 14. He's your age now strange. He has no ambition of becoming a pro fighter.

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I only came to dance.

silent_jay

...............

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Strange Famous

This whole thread is starting to follow a pattern.

I make arguments in favour of my view

The people opposed to them simply insult me personally, and rarely counter the actual arguments.

I made a mistake on the result of a fight, which I watched in a youtube video that had several knock outs featuring fighters who I do not facially recognise.

People may think what they want about my views, but I dont appreciate being called a liar.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Not Right Now

People insult you, because you talk down on us and come off very high on yourself in your posts man.

"I've demolished all of your arguments."

"I'll destroy your fighter tomorrow."

You have to realize, you have made absolutely no valid points. The fact that you think the Ground game is "unmanly" seems to be the only thing you absolutely know.

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I only came to dance.

silent_jay

.....

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Strange Famous

In fact, I never stated I could beat Jackson, precisely because I havent viewed his fights at length.

I dont think that I am a great athlete, you are getting my point - deliberately - he wrong way round. I have said every time I consider myself average in skill and strength. The point I am making is that MMA fighters are also average in terms of skill, and a high level of fitness could be achieved by anyone with sufficient commitment and training.

In fact, I did a 6 week long Judo course when I was about 10 - so when peopple say the Pierre started training in Karate at 8 - I know what this means, I know how serious these sort of classes are, and I know it means nothing.

My sporting background is that I played football (soccer) for my school, for a local junior team, and then for a local senior team until I was 22.

I played cricket for school and university, and also hockey for my school.

At 15 I won the House 100 metre race, but finished last in the overall school race.

I play in a local badminton league and finished 2nd out of 22. I also play in a local squash league, and I am in the third out of 6 leagues.

I play badminton on average twice a week, and occasionally play squash or five a side football.

I am about 100 lbs overweight, but relatively active.

I have always been able to pick up any sport and play to an ok level, but have never excelled in anything.

SO:

I do not claim to be a supreme athlete, I claim, again, that I am an average man, and that the skill level of MMA is such that with 6 months training I could compete and have a good chance of beating Timbo Slice.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

silent_jay

.......

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Strange Famous

my point is, to get back to it:

1 - MMA is overly violent and dangerous
2 - The rules of MMA promote a style of fighting which is classless, unattractive and unmanly
3 - Most of the top MMA stars I have looked into are average fighters without high skill levels.
4 - MMA fighting is in my opinion mostly boring (as they grappled around on the floor) and occasionally horrific (when a fallen man is beaten by his opponent)
5 - MMA fights are unpredictable, because the very open structure of the rules acts as a leveller between the good and the ordinary.

I will tell you one thing.

IF I was an MMA fighter, and I put my man down... I would allow him the opportunity to get to his feet before continuing to fight.

I guarantee that I would act in this way.

Win or lose, I would show that an Englishman at least is still capable of behaving as a true gentleman, with courage and fairness.

___

To be quite open, boxing does require skill, courage, and a certain nobility.

Anyone can wrestle.

I can tell you, I read on wikipedia about one MAJOR fight in "Pride MMA" which was won by "soccer kicks to the head" of a fallen man. Is this what people call entertainment? I for one am proud that this kind of sport will never take off in England.

Disgraceful.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

silent_jay

................

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Bossnass

I believe that this argument is over.

I have just done extensive research and come to the 100% accurate conclusions that every boxer of all time has less skill than every MMA fighter ever.

I reviewed videos of the best boxers and it is proven beyond discussion that there is no boxer that could defeat any mma fighter. In fact, I can detect weaknesses of every boxer who I have reviewed. Every single "champion" can easily be defeated. Boxing is an archaic and doomed "sport" that has been in decline since the "legendary" Thrilla in Manilla. Boxing has long been more corrupt than MMA will ever be. It is no coincidence that he who supports boxing suspects his boxer of 'taking a fall'.

Further, I have researched manlinesses and have implicitly proven that UFC fighters are both more manly and more honorable than boxers. Please note that I have also already demolished any arguments to the contrary.

silent_jay

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

highthief

But who has bigger schlongs, the real criteria for "manliness"? And did Tyson ever bite one off while in the joint?

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Not Right Now

I bet Cheick Kongo is huge.

lol

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I only came to dance.

silent_jay

..................

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

highthief

I hear he's in the next Bang Brothers video ...

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Not Right Now

I bet he knees Dirty Sanchez and breaks his ribs.

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I only came to dance.

silent_jay

..............

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

bermuDa

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I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

m0rpheus

A few questions, comments and observations.

Do you not think that boxers also look for work as bouncers before they "make it to the show"? Of course they do.

1-No more so than boxing, someone competing in MMA takes far less blows to the head.
2-The rules for MMA are not unified. However, it is still a sport that is evolving. The UFC is hardly classless (see Matt Hughes reaction to his loss to George St. Pierre), and unattractive and unmanly is subjective.
3-Uneducated B.S.
4-That's your opinion and you are entitled to it, however many think this is wrong.
5-Because clearly there have never been upsets or shocking outcomes in boxing.

So you want MMA and the Mixed Martial Artists that compete in it to be different sport. Surely those Basketball players should only kick the ball like a good soccer player does. After all they are clearly the same thing since both use balls and nets.

I agree that boxing requires skill, the nobility of boxing is long gone.
As far as your comment about wrestling. Sure anyone can wrestle, however to wrestle well it takes time and training. Anyone can put on gloves, learn the rules, step in to a ring and box. That doesn't mean they will be a good boxer.
*Edit* I assumed that you are talking about amateur wrestling the sport not pro wrestling ala WWE. If you were talking about WWE style pro wrestling, then I disagree that ANYONE can wrestle as it still requires a degree of training and physical prowess however it also isn't a sport. It's entertainment and yes almost anyone who is of average physical ability could learn the basics of pro wrestling.
Pride is dead, bought by the UFC. The UFC does not allow "soccer kicks to the head".
As far as the sport not taking off in England...
UFC 70: Nations Collide
Date: April 21, 2007
Venue: Manchester Evening News Arena
City: Manchester, England
Attendance: 15,114 (12,708 paid)
Total Gate: $2,628,472 (£1.3 million GBP)

UFC 75: Champion vs. Champion
Date: September 8, 2007
Venue: The O2
City: London, England
Attendance: 16,235
Total Gate: $2.7 million

You assume that a man on his back can not defend himself and this is incorrect. If a fighter is simply knocked down or taken down he is hardly defenseless. Some are far more dangerous on their back with their ability to submit than they are standing up striking but you seem to be unable to understand this. IF the fighter is unable to defend himself ,ie he is too dazed to defend because of a shot to the head, the fight is stopped.

Again, you assume that the man who is down is always defenseless. This is incorrect. Also most Mixed Martial Artists (or UFC "Brawlers" as you call them) have had some boxing training. However many of them do not use striking with fists as their primary focus many use grappling or kicks (while both are standing btw). Wrestling, boxing, and other Martial Arts all have a place in MMA.
Example - George St. Pierre.
Height 5 ft 10.5 in (1.79 m)
Weight 170 lb (77 kg)
Born May 19, 1981
Mixed martial arts record
Wins 15
By knockout - 5
By submission - 6
Losses 2
Trained in Kyokushin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyokushin), Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai, Wrestling (BTW he trains with the Canadian national team) and Boxing. Yes boxing has it's place in MMA however it's only one part of the training. Notice that GSP has KO'ed his opponent in 1/3 of his wins, and made them submit almost the same. As far as two losses one was against the then champion Matt Hughes who was GSP's idol and GSP has admitted he was starstruck and not ready to fight Hughes. His other was against a guy he didn't take seriously and as well as some personal issues that put him in a very bad head space. Since that loss he has looked dominant.
So why would he choose MMA over boxing? Well for one he has been training in martial arts since childhood not boxing. How would he do in boxing? If he dedicated himself to just boxing, probably quite well but would he be the best in his weight class? I don't know. Why? Because he has been training for something else for most of his life.
If GSP stepped into a boxing ring in 6 months would he be able defeat the champ of whatever weight class 170 lbs would put him in? Probably not because said champ has dedicated himself to Boxing whereas GSP uses boxing as one of his tools but not as the only one (nor even his primary).
If the same boxing champ stepped into the octagon against GSP it would be exactly the opposite with the boxing champ being outclassed in an environment he hasn't dedicated himself to.

__________________
"it never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson

ubertuber

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Strange Famous

A man who deliberately lays on the floor is not defenceless fine.

A man who is KNOCKED DOWN is defenseless, and the main issue with MMA as a sport is it allows a man who is knocked down (as opposed to taken down) to be pummelled.

If the sport had a simple rule change to say that strikes could only be thrown when both fighters were on their feet, and they when on the floor they could only grapple then most of the objections would be gone.

As kicks to the head of a grounded man have now been banned, perhaps MMA will move in this direction?

And I dont know why you keep bring up ear biting Jay. The point is that Tyson was disqualified for this. That is the proof that this is not allowed in boxing, he lost his title and his license for doing it.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

bermuDa

As many have said before, this is simply not true.

You are confusing being knocked down with being knocked out. MMA rules state that the fight gets stopped if one fighter can no longer intelligently defend himself. Many many fights go to the ground, and the fighter that is initially taken down will win the fight. They are most certainly NOT defenseless. In fact, many fighters are even more dangerous on the ground and prefer to end things there. It's just a preference, and has nothing to do with manliness. I've also seen fights where one of the fighters (or both) will prefer to stay on their feet, and will deliberately wait to make the other man stand up. Again, just a preference that has more to do with strategy than the size of their cajones.

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I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

silent_jay

.............

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Strange Famous

Im sorry, you are simply wrong.

If someone is knocked down they will be dazed and hurt. I am not talking about people who deliberately fall down to avoid blows, but people who who are hit to the ground.

MMA could be fixed by the rule change that I suggested - no blows thrown when on the ground.

If some cowardly fighterer falls down to avoid the blows when they are not hurt... they can either be counted out or get up and fight - like taking a knee.

And if the wrestlers want to go for take downs they can, they just cant throw punches of kicks at people who are down.

Some people can fight better in the wrestling stage, I agree. But when someone is punched to the floor, they cannot defend themselves... sometimes the 3 seconds it takes the ref to jump in and stop a fight while a downed man is beaten will not be enough to save a life.

MMA needs to ditch the "extreme" marketing and decide its course, either as a sport or as a brawl.

I will always believe that boxing, by the queensbury rules, is the ultimate test of manliness.

But the first boxing champion of the world - James Figg - fought under rules something like MMA, but it was still understood that when a man was put down he was either allowed to take the count of get back up and fight once he could defend himself.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

silent_jay

...

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Strange Famous

I think this whole thread has descended into people playing characters and not saying what they feel in an educated way... and I prolly started it....so I apologise for that.

I dont like MMA, for the reasons I think - through it all - I have stated.

Some people do like and feel passionate about it.

I think thats all cool and no one has been hurt in this whole thread, but it prolly is time to cool things down.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

m0rpheus

No sorry but you are wrong. You refuse to accept the difference between knocked down, and knocked out. If a fighter has his legs kicked out from under him is he dazed and defenseless? If he is knocked down and immediately goes into a defensive position is he defenseless? No. If a fighter IS dazed and unable to defend then the fight is stopped immediately because you must defend yourself at ALL times. Unlike boxing where you have a ten count to be able to gather yourself if you are knocked for a loop in MMA and unable to defend the fight is over. Period.
Also why should strikes only be thrown when standing? Many of the strikes thrown on the ground are body shots or light head shots with far less power than a strike while standing. So why throw them? So that the opponent will be forced to defend against that and leave themselves open to a submission.
Also the UFC has ditched the "extreme marketing" long ago. That's what almost killed the UFC was the total head in the ground attitude of the original owners. They refused to be sanctioned, they refused most rules, weightclasses etc and the UFC almost died because of it. The UFC now is nothing like the UFC then. They follow a set of rules that is approved by sanctioning bodies (in fact in most cases the very same sanctioning bodies as boxing) with penalties if said rules are not followed. Even some of the UFC's biggest opponents have accepted that the UFC is no longer the "human cock-fight" that Sen. John McCain once called it. McCain has since acknowledged the changes in MMA for the better and has been quoted as saying (sorry I can't find the article right now) that the sport has "grown up".

As to your earlier comments about it there never being the Mohammad Ali of MMA, how can you guess at this? If the sport continues to grow at the rate it is it will surpass boxing in popularity and it's mainstream knowledge continues to grow. Maybe the general public doesn't know who Matt Hughes is, but they know what the UFC is. Which is a far cry from what it was 5 years ago. 5 years ago MMA fighters would never be on the covers of major magazines, or featured on sports websites, or in newspaper sports sections.
Will there be a Mohammad Ali of the MMA world? Well there will only be one Ali. But will there be someone who is as well known as Ali? Perhaps. Remember the UFC is still young. It's easy for boxing fans to talk about the great champs of the past because boxing has been around for so long. The UFC has only been around for 14 years and has only been sanctioned for seven. I just wiki'd the list of current boxing champions. The only name I really recognized was Mayweather. I've heard of Klitschko before but couldn't pick him out of a lineup if you asked me. Not exactly inspiring there for the great sport of boxing.

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"it never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson

ubertuber

I think the distinction is that in the majority of MMA fights, the match is not over when someone is knocked down. The disadvantage is real, but it's not an unfair way to fight. I think you can tell that by the fact that hardly any fights end within 30 seconds of a fighter going down. In fact, many times, the downed fighter holds on until the uend of the round, or even rallys and wins the fight.

MMA refs make the distinction between "knocked down" and unable to fight. Of course you can quote some instances in which that didn't happen, but you'll be finding the exceptions rather than the rule -- and those exceptions become rarer all the time.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

m0rpheus

Exactly.

__________________
"it never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson

silent_jay

This is the only non-constructive post you found in this thread? Guess posting about Dirty Sanchez and the Bang Brothers in an MMA and boxing thread counts as constructive now.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

bermuDa

should i have quoted every non-constructive post instead of just picking the latest one? There are people in this thread that are discussing this without resorting to name-calling, if you can't join them then you can see yourself out.

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I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

silent_jay

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Not Right Now

I would tend to agree that the whole "EXTREME", "VIOLENCE", "DANGEROUS", etc..... needs to be dropped already, that was a marketing tool used when the fights were actually no holds barred, which eventually wound up hurting the sport. The marketing itself is what needs to change.

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I only came to dance.

silent_jay

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder